It seem Jedi knights us force lighting

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Jasonb
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It seem Jedi knights us force lighting

Post by Jasonb » Wed Aug 19, 2015 3:28 am

We seem us force push weapon all time force push even force chocking we see Jedi knight use. We never see them use force lighting possible reason.
1. First possible reason maybe real risk using it. Might some risk to the users. Factor that Sith power above all else. Means also take risk something Jedi Knight might not.

2. It might little more weapon terror. In practice it can only target one target at a time. We never seem used against more then one target. Limit use form torching once opponent not take one opponent out even. Jedi did not take revenge that power kind aim use for that goal in mind. Form combat effective not nearly effect force push or force chock.


I interest other possible reasons.

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Mr. Oragahn
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Re: It seem Jedi knights us force lighting

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sun Aug 23, 2015 3:40 pm

The reason is they're delusional douchebags and really come off as social justice warriors in their own twisted way.
They literally reject an entire side of the emotional spectrum, supposedly because it's plain ultimate badnessy, will easily make you cruel and would turn you into a monster blah blah blah, and certainly love to claim OTOH to be progressi... civilized, but generally hide behind their lightsabres to impale and maim at the slightest sign of a threat. But that's fine because lightsabres are technology, machines, they're good scapegoats and even if Jedi use the Force to manipulate those weapons, they supposedly don't use the Force directly.
However, they probably never heard that tale about what makes the difference between a good weapon and a bad one isn't really the weapon itself in most cases but the person weilding it and his intentions. We're not talking about nukes here.
Suddenly and quite conveniently, gone are the rules about pain and all those stories! No incapacitors, no stun, no Force powers that make you fall asleep.

To that effect, the way the Jedi were seen to disable organic people by dicing them and inducing pain really slams the bell on the hypocrite scale.

Now, they don't use Force lightning because it is seen to inflict pain and even tissue damage past a certain point without knocking down the victim. But manipulating an EM field and the electrochemical balance within the nervous system of a target, with the precision granted by using the Force, would actually be the best way to go.

In fact, what Qui-Gon Jinn did in TPM was surprising, because his Force pushes DID disable droids. But it was QGJ, a guy who saw both sides of the question, stood somewhere at the middle point and couldn't be arsed to sit at the top of some ivory tower to lecture people on and on about fear, pain and all that crap.
Fear, pain and hatred are necessary part of life. They're warnings of danger, destruction or results of injustice. Listening to such things and understanding them is better than trying to brush them under the rug in some blind and totalitarian fashion.

OBK did a disabling Force push too in TPM but was a padawan under QGJ's tutelage at that itme, under his influence and knowledge.
In fact, if he had been better trained in handling his hatred, he might have very well been capable of being a bigger threat to Darth Maul.
I don't think emotions provide greater energy, but they influence the will and actions. If one can control his hatred to reach a great resolve in killing one enemy, what's the big deal? In many ways, the hatred is precisely the barrier breaker than will allow the unleashing of enough violence to get the job done. Then, the difference being between acting like a little girl with a temper or like a professional law enforcer who must deliver the capital punishment upon some poor soul. Hell, thinking of it, killing in a calm state of mind kinda makes one a sociopath.

Obi-Wan isn't the most impressive character of all. His dogoodin' and pedantic attitude rubs me the wrong way and his ultimate magic trick, letting himself die and disappear, is only a gift from Qui-Gon Jinn who managed to grab such a new feat because he saw the whole picture.

If the Sith are nasty and totally over the top (and the Dark Side's bad breath + evil eye things lacking subtlety in SW), I see the stuck up Jedi Order's paladins of luminous justice having no problem taking their daily shot of Prozium.

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mojo
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Re: It seem Jedi knights us force lighting

Post by mojo » Mon Aug 24, 2015 12:12 pm

Even if a Jedi falling to the Dark Side permanently after using Dark Side abilities is sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy, which seems to me to be what you're saying, it's probably still best they don't use them. Better to have the boring guy in the ivory tower, rather than another Sith running around killing at random and enslaving the galaxy, even if it's all in his head.
I agree with you though, I've always thought grey Jedi were much more interesting, and that they make more sense. I even hoped that Qui-Con's status as a grey might have something to do with the whole "balance to the Force" hoopla in the prequels, especially after his "Anakin!" shout from beyond the grave in AotC made it obvious that he would be the first on-screen Jedi to make the jump to Force Ghost.
Seriously, George! You already said it 4,000 Times! BALANCE! Isn't balance achieved when both sides of the scales hold equal weight? How does 1 Light Side Jedi = 0 Dark Side Sith?

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Re: It seem Jedi knights us force lighting

Post by Jasonbelkin » Wed Oct 21, 2015 1:48 am

Problem argue that straight way to dark side depends to factors. First is Jedi using to kill or just disarm or temporally disable. Other is likley other use for include provide power that might need some piece equipment.

Other problem argue lead to darkside is fact see Luke use force chocking just as danager likley lead darkside.

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Re: It seem Jedi knights us force lighting

Post by TrueChristian » Wed Jul 06, 2016 6:53 am

These are interesting points, but the fact is that by all available evidence we have to conclude that using dark side abilities does indeed turn force sensitives to the dark side. Anakin's 180 degree turn in RotS alone seems to validate this.
That is why they do not use force lightning.
Also, Mr. Oragahn, isn't the lightsaber's use directly connected to the force? I don't know if it is actually referenced on-screen, but multiple times in the novels it is directly stated that Jedi or Sith become a conduit of the force itself when dueling at the highest level. You have my apologies if you do not use evidence from the novels, Mr. Oragahn.

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Mr. Oragahn
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Re: It seem Jedi knights us force lighting

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Thu Jul 14, 2016 3:58 pm

mojo wrote:Even if a Jedi falling to the Dark Side permanently after using Dark Side abilities is sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy, which seems to me to be what you're saying, it's probably still best they don't use them. Better to have the boring guy in the ivory tower, rather than another Sith running around killing at random and enslaving the galaxy, even if it's all in his head.
The Sith are people seeking power for the sake of it – typically Palpatine – or lying to themselves in thinking they do it for the greater good. Technically, Anakin fell prey to this lie for a greater part of his life and it's only the light brought by his son, the new life, fruit of a most complex union one would say, but who ultimately rejected power and promises thereof, that allowed the corrupted knight to get rid of the dark wizard's spell.
Much of the suffering results from emotionnal wounds too... and for all its faults in execution, at least the movies show that well. Either you repair them or they poison you.

The Jedi aren't supposed to be that kind of wounded personnas, but they really do lie to themselves a lot too!
What doesn't work well with me is how they're living their boring, neutral monastic life.
No sex, no joy : a complete revulsion of the principles of life and the existence down there. Antithesis of it... to the letter.
One way, you could say that even if QGJ was largely flawed and unwittingly reflecting his Order, he at least did have a problem with the core tenets of this same decrepit Order.
I think that story-wise, the Jedi don't love the Force, they're afraid of it. They only attune to it in order to get the most neutered aspects of it. A kind of pale subsistance, like light coming from a very distant star.
The Force was able to manifest life through a miracle; the Jedi shun this creative principle by rejecting the basic needs for procreation. They're nothing more than Catholic warrior-priests and in all logic, the Jedi Order should have been a cesspool of pedophiles.
To them, the Force appears to be a burden, or a plague. See, in life, the basic rule is that you can only get a chance at feeling joy if you accept that you may also feel sadness if you do things wrong. It's all about the risks and the trill, ergo emotions. Now, those Jedi, by being cowards and too afraid of themselves – plus literally their own shadows – and their projected (and assumed) ability to cause damage, they reject both. They're full of guilt in advance of any error. It's sick.
Worse, I think they see their abilities as a curse; mentally, they're closet self-whipers. They don't look for balance, for it would require accepting both ends of the spectrum. Joy and sorrow, love and hatred. They're totally bland, anti-life. They crave a flatline'd existence. They're most certainly dead inside.
The Force couldn't have any of it!
They're demigods who reject the good life, secretly quaking in fear at the idea of what they may do once drunk, so they push away any chance of living like Olympians down on Earth.
They really should be seen as nothing more than boring, miraculously-not-pedos, sick and quasi-sociopathic pretentious monks in bathrobes.

As for hatred.
It is complex.
I see no problem, in certain cases, with summoning hatred with the utmost discipline, in due time and due quantity, to find the rage to kill (normal people can't kill) if you need to deshumanize what has to die, only to dispatch the hatred once the deed done.
However, it may be very interesting to read into the mindset of people who had to kill, depending on the context: cops, troopers, etc.
When you think of it, even killing in the name of self-defense, which may seem righteous, solely derives from a fear of being hurt or killed.
Isn't fear a primary path to the Dark Side?
It requires insane logic and the weirdest discipline to kill just "because it has to be done". It's only achieved, then, by being mechanical and logical.
Hate may be the best way to bring your mind to the state of being ready to kill, for the occasion. As such, I prefer the path that allows you to remain fully human, not semi-dead or sociopathic.

Besides, what got Palpatine where he ended isn't the Force if I'm correct, but a specific twisted use of his intellect and his cunning ability to promise greatness through power to those he tempted, namely Count Dooku and Anakin Skywalker (plus all the other sycophantic politicians). All through talking, mostly.
I agree with you though, I've always thought grey Jedi were much more interesting, and that they make more sense. I even hoped that Qui-Con's status as a grey might have something to do with the whole "balance to the Force" hoopla in the prequels, especially after his "Anakin!" shout from beyond the grave in AotC made it obvious that he would be the first on-screen Jedi to make the jump to Force Ghost.
Seriously, George! You already said it 4,000 Times! BALANCE! Isn't balance achieved when both sides of the scales hold equal weight? How does 1 Light Side Jedi = 0 Dark Side Sith?
Absolutely!
And Luky Skywalker IS the epithome of that accomplishment.
Luke Skywalker is absolutely gray, far more than QGJ. His shell is literally dark, yet his mind is pure.

It is very interesting in fact. Luke is the son of Anakin, but could be considered the grandson of the Force. As such, he realizes great many things in the material world and brings considerable light right on the doorsteps of the foulest shadows. He corrected what a blinded Anakin did, i.e. destroying beauty and throwing an entire galaxy into darkness, because this same Anakin once let his hand be guided by an evil and wicked man. Anakin thought that his suffering was unfair and he too wanted to be able to enjoy a full, normal life, so essentially he thought why not? Why couldn't I?


Now, I won't start another rant on TFA because to me, it's a complete denial of anything achieved by Luke on a moral and metaphysical plane.
Mediocre minds – such as JarJarAbs' – couldn't understand what the ending of ROTJ represented. He just made a soulless commercial POS with pewpews and lightsabres, inserted between two KFC ads.
Last edited by Mr. Oragahn on Tue Aug 23, 2016 5:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Mr. Oragahn
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Re: It seem Jedi knights us force lighting

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Thu Jul 14, 2016 4:09 pm

Jasonbelkin wrote:Problem argue that straight way to dark side depends to factors. First is Jedi using to kill or just disarm or temporally disable. Other is likley other use for include provide power that might need some piece equipment.

Other problem argue lead to darkside is fact see Luke use force chocking just as danager likley lead darkside.
Fear is spoiling life, and the more you attempt to avoid certain things, the more they end up bitting you in the bottom.

PS: another reason why TFA is just a tragedy is that Luke essentially torpedo'd the entire "steal the kid from their parents if they have supa-bacteries in ther blood" mantra from the old Jedi Order, but this movie had Luke do the exact same thing!
Good luck to the writers of Ep 8 who will have to rationalize that!

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Mr. Oragahn
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Re: It seem Jedi knights us force lighting

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Thu Jul 14, 2016 4:56 pm

TrueChristian wrote:These are interesting points, but the fact is that by all available evidence we have to conclude that using dark side abilities does indeed turn force sensitives to the dark side. Anakin's 180 degree turn in RotS alone seems to validate this.
How so? The only real "dark" power he used was choking Padmé. That came much later after his conversion, and Luke used the exact same power without turning into a murderous psycho.
Anakin killed kids because they reminded him of what he hated: soon-to-be Jedi in his own likeliness. He didn't even think of what he may be able to do to save them from what they'd be, no. He hated them like he probably hated himself. The only way to end the curse was the destroy the seeds too.
Remember, after all, that Anakin was lured to the Dark Side by one single thing: the promise of a power that would protect the life of the one woman he loved. The Jedi Order and especially Mace Windu threatened that. It pushed him. He realized that the entire Order was more than a problem, it was THE problem.

Huh, in fact, Marvel really does pee all over that nonsense: its good characters have tons of "aggressive" Force like power they use when needed.
That is why they do not use force lightning.
Yet, leaving aside all symbolism, we have real life evidence that thunder can knock people out without even hurting or killing them.
But I think people generally imagine lightning as death hurt death hurt only, so much that they could picture Luke begging "don't taze me bro" to Palpatine in ROTJ, because they can't imagine what a true mastery of energy and electricity could allow one to achieve.
Also, imagine that during a mission, a Jedi absolutely needs to destroy something located a good distance from where he stands. A nice little fireball or lightning bolt would do the trick. But not, because of RESTRICTIONS!, the bloke has to expose himself, cross the distance and plant his lightsabre into the target.
Force lightning would have surely come handy against those droids. Imagine: No lightsabre, only a shield and lightning bolts.
Also, Mr. Oragahn, isn't the lightsaber's use directly connected to the force? I don't know if it is actually referenced on-screen, but multiple times in the novels it is directly stated that Jedi or Sith become a conduit of the force itself when dueling at the highest level. You have my apologies if you do not use evidence from the novels, Mr. Oragahn.
I don't, but I remember such stuff, I think.
Now, it's rather vague. Conduit of the Force?... also, from an in-universe perspective, if both sides do it, it would mean that the Force doesn't care about which way it's used. Not only that conduit could be used to destroy life (death by lightsabre) but because it can precisely be made to do whatever you want, it would make the Jedi huge hypocrites; their entire raison d'etre is to avoid certain uses of the Force because it's baaaaaad, but said Force doesn't give a zsh.

RomalaG.whero

It seem Jedi knights us force lighting

Post by RomalaG.whero » Sat Apr 15, 2017 10:08 am

Ah, but the Jedi serve the Force, while darksiders seek to enslave it.
Maybe Im wrong, but Ive gotten the impression that the Force favors compassion.

...or, rather, that it strives for balance, which makes it necessary to help the light side since the dark side will otherwise dominate the universe.

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