Planetary Defenses in Star Trek

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sonofccn
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Re: Planetary Defenses in Star Trek

Post by sonofccn » Mon Feb 27, 2017 4:15 am

Mr. Oragahn wrote: Sonofccn simply decided to end the discussion for reasons that are his own and was apparently satisfied with what the episode told him. Sonofccn's doesn't seem to have any problem with the UFP putting sensitive, backfiring shield generators in place where they'll kill the people they're meant to protect. Fine.It's still dumb, especially since it could be easily avoided, but okay.
I would find the above a gross oversimplification. At the time we ended our debate I believe I made suitably clear my disagreement with your analysis specifically your stance that the generators will automatically kill those they are meant to protect. To quote myself from earlier:

"Since the shield generator and the colony were one and the same on a hostile, toxic planet it isn't too surprising overpowering one could have negative results for the other. This is a universe with exploding console syndrome after all.

More saliently nothing in the episode suggests the shield is some special, unique or rare piece of technology, nor explain why an asylum with a handful of inmates would warrant such a device. "

That I chose to focus on arguing that Elba II example was canon rather than going into the weeds debating the statement that "if a planetary shield generator were to blow up... it would be pretty nasty" should not be taken as being in agreement with it.

-Respectfully, Sonofccn

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Re: Planetary Defenses in Star Trek

Post by 2046 » Mon Feb 27, 2017 2:34 pm

Oh, the hilarity.

Seriously, Oragahn's messages herein teach the master class for TrollKingdom. The response to my last Pt. IV, for instance, is literally dishonest and disingenuous with all but one individual quote response, as I shall elucidate later. First, though:

Re: II. Bluffing
Mr. Oragahn wrote: My point is still the same and has always depended on the notion of a deception.


This is why O works so hard to create one in Chak's warning, yes, we've been over that. And the reason he depends on arguing deception here, as he put it, is so he can then handwave Chakotay's clear statement on shielded planets being the norm.
Thing is, the only relevant ability per Chakotay was the "do some damage" bit. And indeed, Chakotay was deadly-truthful. Ergo, it is not a bluff.
We are currently assessing the value of Chakotay's words, in what state of mind he was, what he was trying to achieve and how.


The above is epic because he literally then says "You try to ridiculize by some unnecessary complexity what is very simple."

We do not need to obfuscate Chak's words or start trying to hide in arguments over the contents of his thinking or mind or whether he secretly tooted on the bridge and wondered how it might afflict delicate Krenim noses. Here is the scene again:

OBRIST: Sir, six vessels are approaching our position.
ANNORAX: Identify.
OBRIST: Three Nihydron warships, two Mawasi cruisers, and Voyager.
ANNORAX: We're outside space-time, impervious to their weapons. Let them come.
CHAKOTAY: I know Captain Janeway. She wouldn't be attacking unless she knew she could do some damage.

That's all you need, right there. It was a truthful warning, not a lie, manipulation, or bluff. We don't need to pretend to know the price of tea in China. To attempt multi-layered ruminations beyond this warning is mere obfuscation, and the very iocane powder-puffing I "ridiculize".

What I love is that even as Oragahn goes on at length about Chakotay's cat-and-mouse game in his own head (even suggesting Chakotay considered silence!), yet at the same time . . . well, let's just watch, shall we?
Thinking of it, had Chakotay been totally unaware of the mutiny, he still could have made the very same statement, word for word, if he wanted to convince Annorax to forget about his mad quest.


Guess what, O? You just shot yourself in the foot. This is a correct statement and completely contradictory to your claim. Chakotay could make this logical surmise and know nothing more. And y'know what? That wouldn't be a bluff either.
You only know that as a being part of the audience.


Nope. It is the reality of the situation. A bluff isn't defined by the bluffee, nor a warning by its recipient, before the outcome is determined, as Oragahn tries to do. It is based on the truth-value of the warning or, having none, the bluff.

As an audience, we can know the truth value in advance, a la peeking at the poker player's cards to see if he really has a good hand or to raise on or whether he is just holding random garbage and hoping to bluff a win out of it. In this case, we happen to know that Chakotay is holding the cards in advance, but by the end of the battle *everyone* knows it.

(Well, at least until the timeline is excised by Janeway's victory. But, lest you latch on to that as a lifeline, Oragahn, do note that I refer only to the knowledge of characters in the timeline being followed . . . the YoH timeline was still excised by not-a-bluff.)

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Re: Planetary Defenses in Star Trek

Post by 2046 » Tue Feb 28, 2017 5:10 am

III. Don't mess with my Elba II, too

I see that Oragahn was unable to help himself. Now, not only is the shield dumb by design, but additionally it was wrapped around the planet by the evil genius Garth, making it weaker.

How large was the shield supposed to be initially? Just wondering, because if the Enterprise-D shields get perilously weak at an extension of five kilometers (presumably tubular), it seems to me that the thousands of spherical kilometers one would expect from a planet would have meant the shield could've tanked novae until extended. And indeed, why extend it at all, except to satisfy Oragahn's irrational insistence that planetary shields must not exist? The atmosphere was still poisonous, the dome still impenetrable to land forces, et cetera. It makes no sense. Therefore, Oragahn must argue for it.
On the one hand, you try to make it seems as if you are not drilling down into speculation but merely going with the most basic facts provided.
Characters clearly know about the killing attribute. I don't speculate on that.


You most certainly do. You have decided that the shield kills people when phasered down. Alternatives with greater explanatory power and less nonsense exist. And yet, when presented, you claim they are mere speculation compared to your speculation which is suddenly claimed not to exist.
an explosive atmosphere... you think it would have been mentionned.


Why? There was no mention of why shuttles couldn't fly in the atmosphere, a detail your speculation leaves out.
In fact, that speculation is unnecessary because an explosion occured inside said atmosphere and never triggered a world wide fire apocalypse.


All explosions are equal, then? Fascinating.
OK, your new defense now is to throw a huge amounts of speculation, most of which doesn't even work (but you don't care), in opposition to the simple facts that we're given.


This is the ballsiest line of Oraghan's post. The dude's been speculating up a storm and declaring everything in Trek canon stupid if it contradicts him (or just pretending not to know it), but when counterspeculations are provided that show his speculations to be unnecessary, why all the sudden he takes offense at the huge amounts of speculation and claimed opposition to simple facts.

Remember, too, that this is the same guy who wanked himself into a tailspin to try to prove Chakotay was being dishonest about something . . . anything! . . . in Year of Hell, damning me for refusing to consider the contents of amd states of minds in relation to reactions to warnings. Now, all the sudden, he adopts KISS principles.

KISS works when there is no need to go beyond it. With YoH we have no need to speculate, so Oragahn does. With Whom Gods Destroy we are clearly missing pertinent facts, so Oragahn demands we ignore facts.

It is just so obnoxious. He'll never give up. Even if I transported him to the Trek universe (he may need a visit to Elba II, actually) and let him interview people, he'd call them liars if what they said wasn't what he wanted to hear.

He claims his is "a measured claim that doesn't require extremely exotic attributes." Except it does, insofar as explosive shield generators unobserved in all of Trek canon otherwise and which he himself decries as stupid.

Meanwhile, one of my speculative options at least has precedent, as well as greater explanatory power for the episode's other details, besides. Oragahn's claim ignores canon in favor of the insisted-upon stupidity, and his counterattack is to pretend that all explosions are equal to each other.

It's absurd, but when O decides to go off the reservation, as he does from time to time, he doesn't screw around.

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Re: Planetary Defenses in Star Trek

Post by Darth Spock » Wed Mar 01, 2017 5:36 am

2046 wrote:III. Don't mess with my Elba II, too
I have this... mental picture in my head now.... You did that on purpose didn't you?

As a third party observer, I have a couple thoughts on this brouhaha, as well as a few extra examples, but I'm enjoying the show so much I think I'll just wait until someone gives up. So, carry on! When someone keels over I'll come back.

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Re: Planetary Defenses in Star Trek

Post by 2046 » Wed Mar 01, 2017 11:41 am

I was thinking of Yvonne Craig, but hey, whatever floats your boat . . .

Edit: The above having been said, late props on the historical reference. I was distracted by Yvonne.

Also, please do not enjoy this. It is sad and unnecessary. If Oragahn had simply not been both (a) a jerk and (b) irrational in the extreme, turning skeezy debate practices into an art form, I wouldn't have let it go on. That said, with exceptions, I feel he's toned it down a little bit in the latest posts (save for the one I am soon to put on display piece by piece), but this thread generally is really just completely amazing.
Last edited by 2046 on Wed Mar 01, 2017 3:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Planetary Defenses in Star Trek

Post by 2046 » Wed Mar 01, 2017 1:58 pm

III-A. Elba II Leftovers

Regarding the additional posts…
Mr. Oragahn wrote:And now we can add dumb liberators to the list of dumb people in the Trek universe.


I am old enough to remember when he pretended he wasn't assigning stupidity to Trek characters.

Skipping a couple of nonsensical lines, we come to a good one:
And would they be incapable of having the asylum personnel lower the shield whilst Garth would be held prisonner inside a cell, then too bad for them, plan ruined.


Ah, see, he *can* even.
But that would not be a relevant suggestion because in the episode, Garth was in control of the asylum.


Oops, nevermind, maybe he can't.

We were talking about the design of the shield. The context of the part he quoted and replied to specifically referenced the design concept, from his dumb-by-design assertion versus my tongue-in-cheek counterpoint. A lunatic taking over the asylum was, I'd wager, not considered part of the normal operations by design, but I will at this point go ahead and defer to Oragahn's greater experience with asylums.

Additionally, O suggests that Occam's Razor favors his view. Phasering the shield down causes death to people in a dome, ergo Occam supposedly supports Oragahn's conjecture that the shield will explode. But that's silly . . . a simple hypothesis that fails to even begin to cover the details to be explained, and instead largely produces new contradictions, is not an explanatory success.

For a guy who kept accusing me of Wongian behavior, he's sure pushing a DET-level bad idea.

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Re: Planetary Defenses in Star Trek

Post by 2046 » Wed Mar 01, 2017 10:16 pm

(Edit: This is the point-by-point I have been noting as coming up.)
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
2046 wrote:IV. Odds and Ends

1. You still claim an inherent contradiction in my position yet fail to adequately define one that isn't based on your own groundless assertions.
Prove they are groundless.


They're based only on your conjectures as applied to my words. Pro-tip: I don't agree with your conjectures.

2. You say you apologize for a misunderstanding and that you aren't trying to BS your way out of things, but that's BS because it is what you spent the whole thread doing.
So I spent the "whole thread" to BS my way out of things?


Yes. My favorite example is that even when caught throwing shade on the Elba shield based on a not-even-a-warship being theoretically able to bring it down, you later claim Voyager is a warship when you think it helps you regarding Year of Hell and alien ship counts, claiming Voyager as a "battered warship" so as to make them want to send more ships, in your mind. And when this is mentioned again in this post, your response is to try to BS your way out of it with a smokescreen about internal volume utilization:

The Enterprise not being a warship, she can only compensate for the room used for other purposes by actually making the overall ship bigger, or using a technology superior to what the Klingons or Romulans use on their own warships.


Meanwhile, earlier, you tried to have it both ways with Voyager, which incidentally is illegal in most sectors:
When you consider the ratio size / weapons, it's also pointing towards a warship design with, heck, some labs tacked on for an official civil veneer.

Now –and you're going to hate me for that– this fact would actually turn out to reinforce my point bceause, regarding the comparison of ship shields, we'd have an UFP science vessel largely outmatching alien warships, which in return paints an ever worse picture of these aliens' shielding technology.


So yes, you are BS'ing your way through the thread, as per the above example, the bluffing example, the after-action I did of you versus SonOfCCN on some specific points, and more I can dredge if needed. It's not only bad debating, it is offensively dishonest. You'll seemingly do anything to prop up your case.
Do you want me to actually summarize the several times I actually admited being wrong, explaining why and moving on?


Unlike you, I am not trying to be a time vampire. The most important element is whether your conclusions ever change. Thus far, there's no evidence they ever could.
Funnily, you keep making plenty of self-generous claims about your love for honest and decent debating and your humble will to recognize your mistakes, but you've done none.


By that logic I would still be arguing bleedthrough.
However, while I don't try to jump on any occasion to make such claims, I actually do admit my mistakes.
That's the difference between you and me.


You're bluffing.

For any who might be interested at this late point, consider the below. First, we have the the unproven belief, stated as fact, that the Elba shield was a technological disaster.
I don't state it as fact. Stop lying through your teeth.


"There is simply one, just one example of a shield covering an entire planet as far as the UFP is concerned, and even the YoH case is not as solid as previously thought {… }
So we have one single type of planetary shield that has all the dramatic flaws I have described. It's fixed, weak and dangerous to the people or assets it has to protect, and we haven't even dealt with how long it may take to have a shield of that size raised.
Okay. It's canonically illogical and absurd.

Mind you, only Elba is canonically shown to have such a shield.
The rest is pure conjecture.
If you want to say it would be stupid for the UFP not to have such shields on their more important worlds, I'd tell you that it would be immensely stupid to design and use shields that way to begin with. Being a canon rigorist swings both ways."

That looks like a claim of fact to me, along with the "mess the shield of Elba was" that I referred to, but maybe you'd like to BS your way out of that now.
I have countless times said it was a theory, but insisted it was a necessary one.


The word "theory" does not appear in the first five pages of the thread, nor does the reasonable-sounding tone above match your behavior herein. Now, if you were to here go back and find statements that might be reconstrued as you suggesting you were speculating (as opposed to damning others for it), well, that *would* be more in keeping.
I'm baffled to see Trekkies consider the UFP to be so ruthless towards its own population


That statement only applies to your own nonsense speculations.
(I guess the communist shtick does pour through the cracks after all),


(Is this throwing shade or just obfuscating with total bullcrap, perhaps trying to draw me away from the shield stuff because he knows that commie nonsense is one of my pet annoyances?)
You using Sonofccn's post as a shield to avoid dealing with the problem won't make said problem go away.


This is such awesome horsecrap, I can't even tell what the hell it means. How exactly would I be using it as a shield? Were I to point to it alone and not reply beyond that, maybe you'd have a point, but it came in at the end of a four-post beating in which I threw it in as an additional example of your bad behavior in the thread.

Of course, Oragahn is the same chap who, when I scolded him for acting like a jerk in front of the new guy, claimed I was desperately seeking assistance from others, so . . . yeah, sure, I used it as an inhuman shield. Whatever.
Basically he simply means that the Federation has chosen planetary shields even for an application that could've lived with lesser shielding, contrary to O's claim that the Federation would choose otherwise.
He's also saying that the Federation prefers to install backfiring devices devices right next to a population it's meant to protect when this could have been easily avoided. So we have ruthlessness doubled with absolute stupidity x2 {… }


Bzzt! Wrong again, Ossu . . . I mean, Oragahn.

Your conclusion, not his, is the "backfiring" thing. Ergo, that is not what he said, but a further conclusion you wish to be so about what he said.
{… } they put it too close and they protect a whole planet which is tactically absurd and a waste of power{…}


That's a conclusion, too, and shade-throwing against Trek folk who you really need to be idiots for your BS to fly.

Going further, SonofCCN correctly assaults Oragahn's baseless claim altogether, noting a complete lack of evidence that the shield would pose a danger to a spread-out populace. I would later hammer this point, as well.

Oragahn's response to the point of civilian use?

At that very moment in the show, it wasn't used by civilians nor the UFP but by a mad man.
We simply don't know if the UFP would use it that way.


The first sentence is an appeal to horsecrap. The asylum having been taken over by a madman is completely irrelevant.
So you're playing dumb on purpose? Its use by a madman dives right into the idea of said same madman using the shield in some unsafe way.


You had not started that claim (Garth-modding the shield) by that point. You are trying now to retroactively insert a modicum of reason where none existed. Your claim was that the shield was so dumb and dangerous the Federation wouldn't use it on populated civilian worlds.
The context of the show, as well as "Dagger of the Mind" before it, is that asylums keep shielding up normally. Otherwise Kirk might've balked at faux-Cory's raising of the shield upon their landing.
Did I say that the problem was in keeping the shield up?


Wouldn't it going or being worldwide be a shock?
You also make it sound that they never ever switch it off, which would be rather stupid. Oh wait, they precisely switched it off in the episode in order to let people be beamed down.


You're the one who suggested it wouldn't be up normally, hence my point. Now you switcheroo and strawman me by claiming "normally" equals "always", and despite the fact that I *just effing gave* an example of it being lowered for landing, pretend that you are "WINNING" by pointing out that it was lowered for landing.

So what we have there is a Self-Reversal Strawman Jump with a Twist. I await the figure skating judges awarding you 10s for that.

As for Dagger of the Mind, is that a new reference you're also going to leave unsubstantiated and yet pretend it proves anything or what?


Y'know, that bullcrap was old the first time you used it. Asylums keep shields up normally, per "Dagger of the Mind" amd "Whom Gods Destroy". If you want to make a counterclaim, go make it. Otherwise, feigning conplete ignorance of Trek and/or basic context will get you nowhere except to make you look even more foolish. What, do I need to find you discussing Dagger like I did your prior feigned ignorance of Nemesis?
Beyond that, he makes a voluminous claim that any shield overload event would make for gigatons of blast based on total antimatter stores of a Federation ship,
Not a Federation ship. *sigh*


That was your baseline. You even use it again right after saying the above!

Page 1: "Considering the power it's ought to use regarding the shield strength per zone and the overall total resistance against nuclear-level firepower... and that ships alone carry gigatons worth of antimatter... something tells me that if a planetary shield generator were to blow up... it would be pretty nasty.
I mean, simply put, either you have a super wide shield that still kills people locally and can only repel the firepower of one single ship like the Connie using phasers only (and perhaps a spread of torps for the icing) and... that's not great. I don't know how much AM the Connie carried but I'd say you'd need at the very least that amount of AM to cover the power expenditure. I think you'd reach in the hundreds of megatons and considering how fast the bombardment go, you may not have anytime to move people around to safe zones. "

Page 5: "Now, a Federation ship is likely to have a lot of AM aboard. A shield generator, in order to be to repel massive firepower, would logically need to have at the very least just as much, if not far more antimatter.
Since a Federation ship would find herself probably carrying the equivalent of hundreds to thousands of petajoules worth of energy, an explosion of a shield generator caused by an overload triggering a destruction of the AM containment would lead to an explosion into the gigaton range.
And I'm just considering the fuel expenditure needed for a very limited defense duration or small quantity of ships, nothing even remotely close to an attack by a large fleet or even a siege!
It is not a problem one could just dismiss."

Don't lie so transparently.
The shield generator has to run on its own reserves, right?
In the case of an explosion caused by something (overload?), chances are that the fuel reserves would blow up too.


Why? Do shields use antimatter batteries? And besides, if drained down, won't the antimatter be gone?
blah blah


Sudden conjecture on how shields repel attacks and are powered is just more nonsense conjecture. And after all, by your argument, starships should explode on shield failure, and you're at least able to acknowledge that they don't.

Well, you were before . . . you wanna shift on that, now, too?
In short, he obfuscates and makes up a patently silly notion of how things work, treating it as gospel.
No.


You're still arguing it over paragraphs, claiming alternative ideas are magical and that your claim cannot be easily dismissed, so yes.
In the end, if you want to play it the canon-face-value-stop fundie way, I just have to remind you, again, that Elba II is unique


Wait, I thought you thought it wasn't. You won't even acknowledge facts about the planet that are relevant. And, after all, won't its shield always kill civilians no matter what? So what the hell?
That is a lot of words to avoid dealing with the obvious problems.


That's what I have been pointing out about your posts.
It is truly desperate of you to claim that I dug myself into a hole of some kind.


Ballsy statement from the guy who claimed I was crying out for help by telling you to act better around the new member, even suggesting I was claiming to have personally brought a guest and that such a claim was low of me.

"Looking for support now? That really does sound desperate. :)"

"Wait. Are you saying you brought a guest and I'm disrespecting this person??
Come on Robert, you can't possibly be reaching that low... :|
Is there an argumentation fallacy known as Appeal to the Plebe's Support, because you certainly are very fond of using it. :)
Although it seems to be more about a conflation of a soft ad hominem and a quest for a moral high ground."

The good news for you is that you are bound to have reached the core, so maybe your continued digging can only cause your altitude to increase.

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Re: Planetary Defenses in Star Trek

Post by 2046 » Thu Mar 02, 2017 6:25 am

2046 wrote:It's absurd, but when O decides to go off the reservation, as he does from time to time, he doesn't screw around.
I knew I remembered one such example: http://starfleetjedi.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=406

That thread, from ten years ago, showed several of the same irrational patterns of argumentation we are seeing here, albeit often in greater infancy. There, Oragahn's strongest arguments were in regards to trying to dispute my effort to cohesively understand somewhat disparate canon descriptions of Docking Bay 94, presenting them as wholly contradictory based on his own conclusions because it furthered his goal of embiggening Mos Eisley.

Certainly creating a cohesive concept is always going to be a harder sell than cherry-picking and discarding whatever you don't like, but even with that theoretical upper hand he largely made a mess of his own arguments, engaging in some of the same foolishness we have seen in this thread, such as wild self-contradiction, rejection of canon, rampant speculation treated as fact, and general Tellarite jackassery.

It wasn't until I finally (a) noticed his screenshot sleight-of-hand and (b) loaded up a photo editor to properly demonstrate the flaws in his claims about the in-town shots that I was able to blow his Mos Eisley stuff to smithereens, though he was still trying to claim supertall buildings not unlike Saxton and his unseen Death Star supertrench.

So basically, it was the same sort of dodgy-weavy, weavy-dodgy nonsense based in an effort to muddy the waters and create confusion, all while pushing his own assertions-sans-evidence virtually unchanged. Sounds familiar.

In any case, I will grant one self-contradiction in this thread that seeing JMS talk reminded me of. See, Oragahn is being a trolling time vampire. I have said I don't want to feed such scum. Yet here I am, keeping at it.

Time to stop. Oragahn has no reasonable arguments so it's just me repeating myself in slightly different ways. That's not a good use of my time.

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Re: Planetary Defenses in Star Trek

Post by Darth Spock » Thu Mar 09, 2017 4:07 am

2046 wrote:I was thinking of Yvonne Craig, but hey, whatever floats your boat . . .

Edit: The above having been said, late props on the historical reference. I was distracted by Yvonne.

Also, please do not enjoy this. It is sad and unnecessary.

....
Ah, I see she was an actual ballerina. That makes sense, I should have figured. Props on the cultural reference.

I should feel guilty normally, but it seems like this thread already took a turn to the theatrical a while back, complete with direct commentary to the audience. Even our resident cop on the block seems to have opted to just let the "titans of the old days/crotchety old bastards" finish slopping each other upside the head. Besides, I for one find that nerd-on-nerd dorktalk is as interesting to watch as actual feline pawicuffs, if you'll pardon the paraphrasing. ;)

To add my thoughts on "Year of Hell," I'm not sure it is a good example for planetary shields. While it is certainly a straight forward and reasonable assumption, the presence of planetary shields on the Nihydron and Mawasi home worlds is still just that, an assumption. Given the general purpose of forming a list of planetary defenses in Star Trek, the meager information provided in this episode isn't very helpful. Without delving into excessively complicated analysis of bluffing and misdirection, the idea that defending against a very unique temporal weapon can only be accomplished if combat rated, full planet encompassing shields are already installed and humming is a pretty specific conclusion. Lacking such facilities wouldn't prevent a planet from attempting to protect itself, perhaps deploying a satellite network swaddling the world in anti-chronitons (based on the other Krenim episode, "Before and After") or any other attempt at protection. Assuming an effective defense was successfully deployed even, considering the episode's conclusion was essentially a permanent reset to the timeline for everyone, unless they sent messages back home to lower their defenses as a giant temporal wavefront rolls toward their planets. You see my hesitation to slap this episode in a list of examples reliably demonstrating the presence of planetary defenses.

Regarding "Whom Gods Destroy," the shield's attributes are laid out pretty clearly, the problem comes from the apparent lack of similar examples elsewhere, coupled with the unfortunate tendency of those at the helm of the Star Trek franchise to conveniently "forget" bits of canon, particularly from TOS. A notable example being TNG S6 E19 "Lessons," where the 643 colonists of Bersallis III would no doubt have benefited greatly from such a shield. It wouldn't be difficult to write that one instance off, but the overall impression is that shields like the one found on Elba II just aren't that common. Regardless, I can't think of any direct contradictions to a shield system like that found on Elba II being available in the Federation, so at the very least it proves that the Fed's had the technical know-how to wrap an entire planet in a shield bubble as far back as Kirk's time. Whether they choose to deploy such devices, and why or why not is another matter.

On this note, while oversimplified assumptions of naked planets could easily run rampant, providing little useful information, I wonder if this list could benefit from explicit examples of absent defenses or other limitations to serve as contrast? For example, while ship cloaks and small holographic duck blinds apparently work in atmosphere, TNG S3 E10 "The Defector" indicates that a large planetary base cannot be fully cloaked.
The Defector wrote:DATA: There is no scarring on the planet surface that would denote heavy construction of any kind.
RIKER: A cloaking device of some sort, to hide the entire base?
DATA: A cloaking device operating on the surface would be given away by visible distortion effects.

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Re: Planetary Defenses in Star Trek

Post by Darth Spock » Thu Mar 09, 2017 4:28 am

Getting back to a listing of specific planetary defenses, that's a nice compilation Iscander, and welcome to the forums by the way, I forgot to say that after coming out of hibernation! Rather than copy-paste the whole thing, but keep the examples consolidated and near the leading edge of this thread, here are links to those compilations so far:

Shields: Structure, Theater, Planetary
Weapons: Surface, Orbital


Cloaked mines

Transporter scramblers/inhibitors/jammers

Observations on Nu-Trek

I think that covers it. Here are a some additional examples:

TOS S1 E23 "A Taste of Armageddon"
The non-aligned TOS era system of Eminiar Seven possessed powerful planetary disruptor banks, although their actual defensive capabilities appear limited, as most of their armaments are evidently theoretical, just computer simulations for their war games. Relevant quotes:

[quote="TOS S1 E23 "A Taste of Armageddon""]
SPOCK: Sir, we have completely scanned your planet. We find it highly advanced, prosperous in a material sense, comfortable for your people, and peaceful in the extreme. Yet you say you are at war. There is no evidence of this.


....

ANAN: Please excuse me. Vendikar is attacking. Mea, care for our guests.
SPOCK: Strange.
KIRK: To say the least.
MEA: It will not last long.
KIRK: Don't you take shelter?
MEA: There is no shelter, Captain.


....
Anan:...Planetary disruptor banks, calculate orbit of star cruiser now circling. Stand by to fire. Full power.
....
DEPAUL: Screens firm, sir. Extremely powerful sonic vibrations. Decibels eighteen to the twelfth power. If those screens weren't up, we'd be totally disrupted by now.


....
KIRK:...You heard me give General Order Twenty Four. That means in two hours the Enterprise will destroy Eminiar Seven.
ANAN: Planetary defence System, open fire on the Enterprise!
SECURITY [OC]: I'm sorry, Councilman. The target has moved out of range.

[/quote]



TNG S3 E15 "Yesterday's Enterprise"
A similar scenario to the Khitomer massacre from "Sins of the Father," although evidently involving no sabotage, but with a larger number of attacking ships.
GARRETT: We were responding to a distress call from the Klingon outpost on Narendra Three. The Romulans were attacking it. We engaged them, but there were four warbirds.
PICARD: The Narendra Three outpost was destroyed.
In the unaltered timeline, the outpost was still destroyed, along with the Enterprise C.




TNG S6 E19 "Lessons"
The Federation Outpost on Bersallis III regularly experiences dangerous fire storms:
NELLA: They form when solar flare radiation reacts with high energy plasma present in the planet's atmosphere.
CRUSHER: Wasn't the outpost built to withstand the conditions?
LAFORGE: It was, both reinforced and insulated. But this is no ordinary storm. It's twice as strong as anything they've ever seen. The outpost just won't withstand it.
They later deploy portable deflectors from the Enterprise, forming a sort of energy wall:
LAFORGE:... If we were to set up a series of thermal deflector units along the northern perimeter, we could create a fire wall and deflect some of the heat. The insulation from the outpost should be able to handle the rest.
DATA: Thermal deflectors generate a field approximately four hundred metres wide. We would need to cross-connect six units and align them so the fields overlap.
RIKER: How many people would it take to set that up?
LAFORGE: Twelve. Two per team. Cross-connecting that many units will be a little tricky.


Star Trek 7: "Generations"
The renegade ‎El-Aurian Soran, in league with Klingons, uses a local area defense shield of unknown origin around his launch site.
SORAN: Do be careful, Captain. That's a fifty giga-watt forcefield. I wouldn't want to see you get hurt.
I can't quite tell visually if it is a dome or perimeter only.
It can be tunneled under however.



DS9 S1 E13 "Battle Lines"
A penal colony of unknown origin in the Gamma Quadrant (though presumably within Dominion territory) possessed a network of armed security satellites.
O'BRIEN: The only thing that could block out a transponder signal is a broad band damping field. That requires a low level satellite system like this one. Suddenly we're being scanned by these satellites, so
DAX: Maybe they had something to do with our missing runabout.
O'BRIEN: Exactly. See, they're putting out a mutual induction field that would block out ninety nine percent of all transmissions to and from the surface.

....
SISKO: But those satellites will come after you if you get too close. They're armed. One of them cut us down without any trouble at all.

DS9 S2 E1 "The Homecoming"
A prisoner labor camp on Cardassia IV was surrounded by a type of energy fence. Transporters weren't blocked, but they presumably had the means to jam them:
O'BRIEN: We're in synchronous orbit above the Hutet Labour camp. I've limited the bioscans to detect only Bajoran lifeforms. Hold on. We're getting multiple readings. There must be about a dozen Bajoran prisoners down there.
KIRA: What? Is there any way of beaming up more than two at a time?
O'BRIEN: I'm afraid not. As soon as we beam the first two up, all hell is going to break loose in that camp.
KIRA: And there's no way of guaranteeing Li will be one of the first two. What's security like down there?
O'BRIEN: The compound is surrounded by a standard Cardassian forcefield.
KIRA: We're going to have to land. It's our only chance of getting them all out of there.
O'BRIEN: I'll find us a secluded spot to put down.

DS9 S4 E13 "Return to Grace"
While trying to determine the next target of a cloaked Klingon BoP raiding Cardassian installations, we hear this:
"KIRA: What about the Cardassian base on the fourth moon of Rakal?
DUKAT: It's subterranean, much too fortified to be a viable target for a bird of prey. It would take a Vor'Cha class cruiser to do any real damage."

DS9 S6 E1 "A Time to Stand"
What was presumed to be the Dominion's main storage and supply depot for ketracel-white in the Alpha Quadrant was built into an asteroid and protected by an energy field. A covert operation to destroy the facility lead to a stolen Jem'Hadar ship being trapped under the shield:
GARAK: Captain, I think we have a problem. They've just raised the security net.
SISKO: Repeat our request for clearance.
GARAK: They're not responding.
....
SISKO: Chief, can we punch a hole in the security net?
O'BRIEN: Sure. It'll take a couple of minutes.
SISKO: We don't have a couple of minutes.

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Re: Planetary Defenses in Star Trek

Post by 2046 » Thu Mar 09, 2017 7:30 pm

Darth Spock wrote:I should feel guilty normally, but it seems like this thread already took a turn to the theatrical a while back, complete with direct commentary to the audience.


Pointong out unreasonableness *to* him didn't seem effective at producing reasonableness, so I opted not to (when I remembered to break the old habit of doing so).

I actually still plan on doing a write-up akin to the one I did for the SonOfCCN reference wherein I follow a specific subtopic of discussion and all the twists and turns. I think it would be fascinating.
Even our resident cop on the block seems to have opted to just let the "titans of the old days/crotchety old bastards" finish slopping each other upside the head.


I hate that he was put in that predicament. It's a tricky situation to moderate in such a scenario.
Besides, I for one find that nerd-on-nerd dorktalk is as interesting to watch as actual feline pawicuffs, if you'll pardon the paraphrasing. ;)
Maybe, but I'd rather watch Yvonne Crai . . . wait, no, she was Batgirl. Okay, Newmar and Meriwether, then.
To add my thoughts on "Year of Hell," I'm not sure it is a good example for planetary shields. While it is certainly a straight forward and reasonable assumption, the presence of planetary shields on the Nihydron and Mawasi home worlds is still just that, an assumption.
It's a conclusion, rather than an assumption. There was no direct statement "their worlds have planetary shields that could be easily reconfigured into temporal shields via the technique provided by Janeway", but there is also no other reasonable reading of Chak's warning that the giving of temporal shields would equate to planet protection.
the idea that defending against a very unique temporal weapon can only be accomplished if combat rated, full planet encompassing shields are already installed and humming is a pretty specific conclusion.


We could posit alternate protection techniques, but Chakotay was specific. Had he said that Janeway had given information on the weapon (a la Death Star plans) then devising alternative defenses could be considered more readily.
Lacking such facilities wouldn't prevent a planet from attempting to protect itself, perhaps deploying a satellite network swaddling the world in anti-chronitons (based on the other Krenim episode, "Before and After") or any other attempt at protection.


I don't think that would apply here. That was a way of offsetting chroniton radiation from the torpedoes that were in temporal flux. The weapon-ship is not known to use chronitons at all in its prime weapon.
Assuming an effective defense was successfully deployed even, considering the episode's conclusion was essentially a permanent reset to the timeline for everyone, unless they sent messages back home to lower their defenses as a giant temporal wavefront rolls toward their planets. You see my hesitation to slap this episode in a list of examples reliably demonstrating the presence of planetary defenses.
I don't see a problem either way. Even if no message was sent, there's no reason for us to assume Voyager would ever know if their planets were altered. Would make good fanfic fodder, though.

More later.

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Re: Planetary Defenses in Star Trek

Post by 2046 » Fri Mar 10, 2017 9:47 pm

Darth Spock wrote:A notable example being TNG S6 E19 "Lessons," where the 643 colonists of Bersallis III would no doubt have benefited greatly from such a shield.


That example hardly seems worthwhile. The planet was subject to particle radiation from its sun that cyclically created firestorms from high-energy plasma in the atmosphere. The structures were built to withstand the wind and heat. Even assuming the radiation was readily blockable (whether in form or amount), planetary shield would only serve to break the planet's ecosystem and produce the need for another way to deal with the plasma.

By analogy, it is the problem of forest fires. Naturally common, we stop them, which only results in a buildup of the very debris that fuels them.

This example is damning inasmuch as failing to show even theater or structure shields, both of which are well-established elsewhere.
I wonder if this list could benefit from explicit examples of absent defenses or other limitations to serve as contrast?


Yes, with caveats. For instance, it makes little sense to have Earth shielded 24/7 owing to trade, private vehicles, and such.
For example, while ship cloaks and small holographic duck blinds apparently work in atmosphere, TNG S3 E10 "The Defector" indicates that a large planetary base cannot be fully cloaked.


1. Spock's reference to power costs would be extreme applied to a whole planet.
2. While I have no doubt the Romulans *cannot* pull an Aldea, the reference to cloaking a base is just that, and has no bearing on planetary cloaks (or shields). A strategically located planet disappearing completely would be an advertisement of nefarious things afoot. Cloaking a base is thus the only way to hide such nefariousness.

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Re: Planetary Defenses in Star Trek

Post by Iscander » Sun Mar 12, 2017 8:09 am

Darth Spock wrote:Getting back to a listing of specific planetary defenses, that's a nice compilation Iscander, and welcome to the forums by the way, I forgot to say that after coming out of hibernation! Rather than copy-paste the whole thing, but keep the examples consolidated and near the leading edge of this thread, here are links to those compilations so far:
Thank you for the welcome. And the same to everyone else if I forgot to say so earlier.

Since we are getting back on subject, I think it's about time I get another post together.

Something I personally consider to be one of the most important parts of a good defense. Being able to see them coming far enough away to do something about it. No matter how many guns you have or how powerful of shields, if you don't know you need to use them, they do you no good.

These are in addition to the earlier references, as they pertain to long sensors and detection.

Apparently 22nd century Vulcan sensor stations are pretty good. At least from Trip's POV
ENT S1E7 “The Andorian Incident”

REED [OC]: Well, what do they want?
TUCKER: They seem to think this place is some kind of a spy station.
[Bridge]
TUCKER [OC]: They're looking for a sensor array. The Captain says to sit tight.

[LATER…]

REED: They've got enough equipment down there to see what any Andorian is having for breakfast.
Border monitoring stations established back in Enterprise Era on the Romulan border are active in TOS Era.
TOS S1E14 “Balance of Terror”

SPOCK: Referring to the map on your screens, you will note beyond the moving position of our vessel, a line of Earth outpost stations. Constructed on asteroids, they monitor the Neutral Zone established by treaty after the Earth-Romulan conflict a century ago.
The network is still in place in the TNG Era, even after losing outposts in "The Balance of Terror"
TNG S6E14 “Face of the Enemy”

N'VEK: Yes. It's your job to order Toreth to proceed into Federation territory.
TROI: We'll never get through the gravitic sensor nets.
N'VEK: We will, if you provide the correct access codes.

[LATER…]

TORETH: The cloaking device does not always make us invulnerable, and you would know that if you had spent any time at all in the field. The Federation has littered its borders with subspace listening posts, with gravitic sensors. They may even have a tachyon detection grid in operation, in which case they will know that we're there. If we are discovered in Federation territory, it will be interpreted as an act of war.
Similar border network is setup on the Cardassian DMZ
TNG S7E24 “Preemptive Strike”

RO: We're approaching the Federation border.
KALITA: How do you plan to get out of the Demilitarised Zone without being searched at one of the checkpoints?
RO: We're going to cross the border here.
KALITA: There are sensor buoys all along the border. If we cross anywhere other than a checkpoint, Starfleet will send a ship to investigate.
RO: With the right security codes, we can disable the proximity detectors on the buoys.
KALITA: Starfleet changes those codes all the time.
References to Listening Posts are not uncommon.
DS9 S5E14 “In Purgatory’s Shadow”

SISKO: One of our listening posts in the Gamma Quadrant picked this up a few minutes ago.
DAX: It looks like a Cardassian military code, but the computer doesn't recognize it.
KIRA: Oh, it's Cardassian all right. But I didn't think there were any Cardassians in the Gamma Quadrant.
SISKO: None that we know of.
Dominion sensor station. Tracking this quote down was driving me crazy since I started posting in this thread. Finally found it so here it is.

A good example of how to use advantages that aren't just numbers and firepower.
DS9 S6E4 “Behind the Lines”

ROSS: No, I didn't. Ever since this war began, the Dominion's been able to outmaneuver us at every turn. No matter where we send our ships, they seem to be there waiting for us.
SISKO: I've noticed that.
ROSS: It's enough to make you think they were smarter than we are. But they're not. They just had an edge that we didn't know about until yesterday. Starfleet Intelligence located a massive sensor array hidden on the periphery of the Argolis cluster. Damn thing's capable of monitoring ship movements over five sectors.
SISKO: That's how they've managed to stay one step ahead of us.
ROSS: They've had an enormous tactical advantage. I want you to take it away from them.
SISKO: Gladly, sir.
ROSS: It won't be easy. The array is heavily defended. This is the intelligence report. Look it over. I want an attack plan on my desk by oh eight hundred.

[LATER…]

SISKO: according to Intelligence, the array is capable of detecting cloaked ships as far away as two light years. By the time the Defiant goes around the Argolis Cluster, the Dominion will already know we were coming.
DS9 S6E6 “Sacrifice of Angels”

DAMAR: Sir, the wormhole is opening.
DAMAR: The Defiant.
DUKAT: Our reinforcements must be right behind.
DAMAR: No, sir. There's no sign of them.
WEYOUN: That's impossible. Check our listening posts in the Gamma Quadrant.
DAMAR: They're not there either.
DUKAT: But they entered the wormhole. Where are they?
DAMAR: I don't know.
VOY S3E4 “The Swarm”

KIM: If this is any indication of their borders, it's a huge area of space, hundreds of sectors. If we were to go around it it would take months.
CHAKOTAY: I'd say over fifteen months even if we could sustain maximum warp, which we can't.
JANEWAY: I'm not going to tell this crew we're adding another fifteen months to this journey. We'll have to find another option.
TUVOK: If we are not to go around their space the only available option is to go through it.
JANEWAY: Precisely.
KIM: Tom and B'Elanna hit a sensor net as they crossed the border. We have to figure we'll run into it when we try to cross. But there are ways around sensor nets.
CHAKOTAY: They can't possibly have enough ships to patrol a border this size. We could probably find an unguarded section.

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Re: Planetary Defenses in Star Trek

Post by Mike DiCenso » Sun Mar 12, 2017 6:16 pm

I didn't see this example of shields protecting an outpost from the ST: ENT episode "Divergence" [Season 4]:


[Klingon Bridge]

KRELL: Captain Archer, your ships are now the property of the Klingon Empire. Stand down or be destroyed! Proceed as planned. Leave nothing standing.

[Bridge]

TRAVIS: The lead ship's moving into a lower orbit.

REED: They're charging weapons.

T'POL: Intercept course. Columbia?

HOSHI: I can't get through.

REED: They're firing on the colony.

T'POL: Target their disruptors!

[Laboratory]

(The room rocks to weapons fire.)

ARCHER: How strong are the shields around this place?

K'VAGH: Not strong enough. You said you had two ships in orbit!

ARCHER: I'm sure they're doing everything they can. Archer to Enterprise.


So even in the 22nd century, the Klingons protected their Qu'Vat colony with shields, though the exact extent is not made clear, and they could withstand at least a few minutes of constant bombardment from a D-5 battlecruiser's main weapons.
-Mike

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Re: Planetary Defenses in Star Trek

Post by 2046 » Sun Mar 12, 2017 6:28 pm

I'd assume those are structure or small area shields, what with the rocking and "this place". Otherwise the 22nd Century Klingons just pwned the debate.

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