Me wrote: I recall that source you quoted that attacked several elements of the OT and it was so absurd,
You recall wrong, but you've had a greater and greater unpalatable tendency tendency towards racism remarks, straw men, and general rudeness. You almost seem hellbent on showing Brian Young right.
Let's go through that collation of many claim, one by one, shall we?
First of all, it's not particularly nice of you to drag into any possible thread the matters that pertain to a very few. Now that Trinoya is in surveillance drone mode, perhaps you'll tone this attitude down.
1. "I recall wrong"?
Actually no. The first time you brought that click-bait article to me, I actually went through several of its points and proved how they resulted from nothing but superficial examination of the source material, and done with such enough dishonesty as to present enough written material to call it a Star Wars related article that snipes the old trilogy. I think the thread, which is not that old btw, lies in the other vs section of this board.
I covered the points, you're free to reply to the post I made, which you have not done thus far.
2. The "racism remarks".
Racist, you meant?
Then, again, I'll wait for Trinoya's position on this. As far as I'm concerned, the accusations are absurd and severely hampering the freedom of speech.
That's like calling me racist for saying that Argentinian wines are rather mediocre or that the NASDAQ is acting retarded.
There just are some elements which cannot be divorced from the geographical or cultural roots they're attached to.
There was no hatred to be found, just criticism.
3. "Straw men".
That's certainly tiresome. Please pay more attention to the parts you reply, don't hesitate to go back a few posts in case it's been a long time you've posted, and you'll see why your accusations are not making any sense.
I realized that many of your points and counter-arguments just stem from such analytical issues you have.
In several threads now, when you're in one of your posting sprees after some random absence, you quite clearly don't spend enough time reading what people wrote.
A simple look at some of the most recent threads would show that
you do have a large tendency to create such straw man arguments in spades. Accusing me of having issues with English certainly didn't help your case at all. I wish you'd be less confrontational and not come here to vent so easily against your favourite target of the month. Discussion are generally cool here but I've got little patience for silly acts.
4. That "general rudeness".
You are the one being needless aggressive. That is all. You see enemies and rudeness where there is none and harass people based on your misreadings.
5. You said "almost seem hellbent on showing Brian Young right."
Now that is really some smelly mound of BS!
There's a good number of threads related to BY here, stretched over a couple years since he decided to return under the spotlight, more or less venturing outside of SDN.
My first engagement with his new material was related to Stargate, and all of them since there were indirect. I never spoke to the bloke, never will, for rather obvious reasons. From there, already, no doubt was left as to my opinion regarding the caliber of his latest work or the man's attitude.
His way of thinking in such at odds with what I'd call well measured sapience that there's practically not a single point he makes that I agree with, and I don't appreciate the guy that much because of his methods and huge dishonesty.
At best, in some thread, I did show some pity for this silly situation he put himself in, and for a brief moment of weakness, I considered that someone should give him a hand. But it's fruitless.
That's the point. Anyone here excepted you can see that I shun and mock BY. You thinking that I seem almost hellbent on showing BY right is just baffling.
For the sake of sticking to the rules here, I'll stop here.
Just don't pull that kind of nonsense again.
With those nice words now out, let's move on to the next part and put it to rest, hopefully.
Me wrote:
not to say easy to counter, that I don't even have to disagree with you because what you say is simply not true, as far as the OT is concerned.
One element that wasn't covered by me or that article you linked to a few months ago at best, was the escape from the Death Star.
It turns out, aside from a few suggestions I'd add, there's a good Reddit thread about that very sequence that largely adresses this apparent plot induced stupidity moment.
Episode 1
1) The Trade Fed fail to talk to the Naboo first to explain what they are doing.
2) The Trade Fed blows up an official Republic ship killing its crew, and then try to murder Republic agents who came on the ship.
3) The Trade Fed starts landing troops for no reason. Starting a ground war does not serve a purpose.
4) The Trade Fed attempt to blow up a Naboo ship that is trying to run the blockade despite not knowing who is on the ship, and needing the Naboo government to sign some sort of treaty still.
5) The Republic Senate refuses to take the Jedi's word that Naboo is being invaded by what appears to be the Trade Federation despite the Jedi being sent by the Republic to investigate what was going on. It doesn't matter who was attacking Naboo. Naboo was being attacked, and needed help.
6) Gunray doesn't keep recordings of his conversations with Darth Palpatine. Heck, Gunray had a holo-conversation in the Naboo throne room.
7) Pretty much everything Gunray does while blockading Naboo is stupidly counter productive to his stated goals.
Episode 2
1) The Republic has no military despite being surrounded by hostile if smaller neighbors and pirates. Just pirates alone should necessitate a fast reaction force larger then the clones seen in AOTC.
2) The Republic despite having laws against slavery except and use an army of slaves.
3) The Jedi/Republic have no idea as to who created the army, but simply except it with nothing but the most superficial of suspicion.
4) Everyone ignores that Count Dooku's personal body guard has the same face as the clones. No reason to find this suspicious when everything points to a trap involving Dooku on some level.
Episode 3/Star Wars: The Clone wars
1) The Jedi never do their own medical scans of the clones. Really, you have clones just standing around, you can spare a few for an hour or so in the several years
2) The CIS never looks over dead clones in order to find weaknesses. The CIS is just too big to assume no one would do this even with the most minimalistic interpretation.
3) The Bio-chip is too easy to exploit though it is still better then any other option I've heard put forward.
Episode 4
1) The Imperial officer lets an escape pod go because it has no life-signs despite the large number of walking computers everywhere. Heck, the pod could have had paper blueprints in it, or R2-D2 could have had paper blueprints stuffed in it.
2) Han, Chewie, and Leia head straight to the main Rebel base without even once thinking of the possibility of a tracking device being placed on the Falcon, or that someone might be following them.
3) The general idea of the Deathstar, but then this is pointed out in the novel.
4) The Rebels don't think to just ram the superlaser with a ship entering hyperspace. Han alone made a big stink about how bad that would be at the start of the movie.
5) The trench run is utterly pointless. The Rebels could have come at the port from almost any direction.
6) Tarken choses to ignore the fighters he knows are a threat. Had Tarken mobilized the Deathstar's anti-fighter defenses, the Rebels would have failed.
Episode 5
1) How the bleep did the Falcon get to Bespin/How long was Luke training for? Plot hole rather then plot induced stupidity.
2) What idiot fails to send some T.I.E. Fighters or something to check a known blind spot the Falcon was hiding on.
Episode 6
1) The Rebels not realizing they were being jammed right away. Some of them were stupid enough to argue with Londo about it.
2) Chewie taking a peace of rather obvious bait that results in the rebels nearly being eaten by Ewoks.
3) The Rebels sending a commando team to the surface of Endor. Just Hyper-drive a ship into the shield generator or send a large bomb.
4) The Rebels flying around inside the Deathstar II rather then just hypering a ship into the Superlaser.
5) Palpatine torturing Luke in front of Vader.
6) Palpatine stating he wanted to replace Luke with Vader in front of Vader.
7) Palpatine not paying attention to Vader.
8) The AT-ST pilots who open the hatch because some Ewoks are banging on it.
9) Not clearing out the dens underbrush around the shield generator.
10) Not properly manning the shield generator.
11) Not properly equipping the Imperial or Rebel forces. Even just a few grenades for the Imperial forces on the ground, and an M-72 type weapon for the Rebels would have changed a lot without weighing down the troops.
I'm sure I missed something.
Yes, what you missed is the possibility that for many so called plot holes you listed, many are due to the lack of any detailed narrative exposure.
A bit like in real life when you hear about some skirmishes on some random country's border or some armed attack in a given city, and you're not given all the ins and outs, and from there you'd infer that it doesn't make sense. It never occurs to you that somehow, several of those problems could be explained by simply using one's brain to figure out the reasons why such things happen, and that plugging the holes isn't such a hard task.
Besides, I'm not saying there aren't plot holes, but listing all small-scale issues you have with the narrative can easily be dealt with on a case by case analysis, and some pretty much be solved.
Your list is long, but I never claimed there weren't any problems at all.
Finally, I feel no particular need to defend any movie, especially not the prequels considering that the points thus far deal with a comparison with the OT and the incoming sequel (and I'm not a fan of the prequels).
Me wrote:
Well no, it was more than that. It literally pushed filming to a new height by either the looks OR the methods. Star Wars changed the industry so deeply, and for good, far more than Matrix ever did.
Yes, it made the eye candy you hate standard.
It was just a matter of technology reaching a certain level..
See, that's another one of your straw man arguments.
I simply never claimed to dislike eye candy whatsoever.
That's just a thing you cooked up in your mind.
SW pushed the movie industry, it's undeniable, and it's not just because of the technology quietly and automatically reaching a certain level, then miraculously and nonchalently spawning myriads of ready and ease to use tools for the masses and any wannabe movie maker. The tech was there, but it was raw, in pieces, and some people had to find a way to tame it and make it useful. Go look for material further detailing this matter, if only by adressing every single technical-related pain the production team went through to obtain the final results, and you'll see that it's just not the mere fruit of some cosy technological happenstance.
Me wrote:
The plots, albeit simple (and they don't always need to be convoluted), were executed in a solid way.
Stories that require someone to do something stupid for anything to get done are not well written. You just have nostalgia problems.
Considering that I've been dissecting and arguing for and against many elements of the OT for what would be more than 15 years, I don't think nostalgia plays anything there. I perfectly recognize the failures of the OT, although I also consider the OT largely superior to the PT by a far distance.
But your late crusade to call condensed stupidity any single narrative cog is perhaps tiring, and even more baffling considering that you apparently force yourself through more of it by watching the CGI shows.
I don't get it. If you think it's craptastic and oozes stupidity through each single pixel, why bother?
I hardly can imagine why someone would punish himself like that, by watching all of this SW stuff, knowing that they're essentially tales told in a specific format, if you think all of it is nothing more than a relentless succession of retarded narrative tricks.
Me wrote:
Lucas took his clues from the best and he could count on fantastic music and wonderful concept art.
This did set the tone for this universe and literally made soft science fiction serious enough.
Star wars has every flaw that Guardians of the Galaxy had, and far more, and yet you say one is horrible while singing irrational praise for the other..
I doubt that. GotG won't even be remembered in 20 years like the original Star Wars movies are now. It simply doesn't have the latent pop-culture potential of SW. It is filled with mind boggling nonsense of such a scale that, contrary to the bits you picked against SW, are so huge that you don't have to make any any effort to spot. Leaving aside the lack of class, they're literally jumping at you, in 3D. It's rife with glaring plot laziness that's a million times worse than the worst stuff from the OT, delivering extremely convoluted situations so there would be an excuse for having some kind of "epic" engagement at some point in the movie, or some forced but obligatory character relation at other times that's not particularly convincing, precisely because the movie is rushed and, as some online reviewer said it, only exists for a future sequel. Oh, did I mention the complete lack of credible tension?
I mean at least in SW, for one, the military ships actually seem relatively logical in their design, and capable enough to comply with said designs. Plus the main enemy doesn't get owned like some despicable cretin because some improbable dick gambles the survival of the galaxy on some silly lap dance, as part of the crux of some totally anticlimatic moment of utter stupidity. If you really dig some of your "PIS", you've really got it in spades in GotG. Only a pro-Marvel bias prevents people from seeing the movie for the mess it is. It's all in the looks, for the coolness, but has no substance. Oh and the irritating swearing. SW managed to be good while keeping such swearing to a minimum. It didn't need it to build its main character. Remove it from GotG and what is Quill left with? Jokes so lame that cannot be saved anymore because of the absence of the cheap vulgarity-shock effect.
And let's not talk about the overall character chemistry that remains rather lacklustre in this Marvel flick.
Now, to go back to SW, it's also not a miracle that since this saga, almost all space battles, especially those of the "large numbers" flavour, have been more or less variations of those from Star Wars and, more often than not, failed to deliver. Thus far, for all the flaws in ROTJ, it remains perhaps one of the best live action battles ever put on screen, if not THE best. Many try to copy, few manage to do just as good. Even less reach a point as to exist on their own, almost new trademarks.
Oh, btw, at least SW had an original musical score. Speaking of my nostalgia as a flaw here and in other threads, I find it amusing that you totally occulted that GotG precisely relied on sheer
NOSTALGIA by picking up hit tunes from the late 70s and early 80s, in order to gain quick acceptance from the grown ups (and an easier access to their purses, if this needs to be pointed out). It was quite a cheap commercial trick here, hardly elegant.
Besides, if nostalgia wasn't really clouding my judgement, I'd be all arms up for the new SW, not giving a shit about how bad it might be. Dontcha think? :|
There's nothing to test really. There are tons of Stories that tell similar stories to Star Wars.
Evil wizard conquers and or corrupts the good kingdom, and the side of good rallies against him.
If we overlook the new age of serious-enough and less campy space techno-fantasy ushered by Star Wars, of course.
But I'm all ears. Let's see those "tons" of soft-SF or space opera movie stories that did just as well as SW if not better,
before SW came out in the US.
I'm eagerly waiting for your examples.
Or perhaps not, because I don't think there are that many. Perhaps none.
Me wrote:
5. TIE fighters with WHITE panels. Suck it up solar finners! :D
Speak in English. I can barely if at all understand you.
Nice. Why not kindly ask me for a clarification on the parts you didn't understand, instead of being abrasive?
They're in for cosmetic purposes. They only accept IR, while
reflecting visible light, which is a huge component of sunlight.
Plus their efficiency actually peaks at
10%, while advancements in regular PV cells have already moved above the 20% bar and some latest discoveries allow them to reach up to 45%.
In other words, using white panels still remains stupid. You want to get the most energy possible out of sunlight, not the least. You don't give a shit about cosmetic issues. Try to think, next time.
It's still absurdly low in light of the needs of a battle starship.
And you should have posted that in the appropriate thread.
