Star Trek-The Wounded-Weapons Calculation

[Lucky]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZk-SapVtpc
0:38 to 0:39

DATA: The warship is three hundred thousand kilometres from the Phoenix. It is opening fire. The Phoenix has taken a direct hit. The Phoenix is beginning evasive manoeuvres. It has positioned itself outside the weapons range of the opposing ship. The Phoenix has powered up both phasers and photon torpedoes. The Phoenix is firing photon torpedoes.

299792.458 km/sec.

The Phoenix and the Cardassian warship were at least 300,000 kilometers apart.

The speed of light is 299,792.458 kilometers a second.

The Phoenix's photon torpedo seems to have taken 1 second or less to reach the Cardassian warship then the photon torpedo was traveling 207.54200 kilometers a second faster then light.

Maybe my timing is off or I made a mistake somewhere?

[2046]

Ships move fast. See http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSW-WeaponRange ... #2367-WOUN

[Lucky]

Ships move fast. See http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSW-WeaponRange ... #2367-WOUN

1) The Phoenix is never stated to come closer then 300,000 kilometers, and space is 3 dimensional.

2) So how quickly do you feel the Phoenix was accelerating then? Your screen caps leave out large chunks of time relatively speaking.

3) As the Cardassian warship never fires a second time on the Phoenix, it would appear the Phoenix never reenters Cardassian weapons range. This seems possible as the display is 2 dimensional while space is 3 dimensional.

[359]

The display showed weapon range overlays, and while that was limited to 2D space the radius would remain constant into the 3rd dimension. Since the Phoenix had a lower range according to the display, and it was already 300,000 km distant, it would have to close in order to fire. Which, in any altitude, would require coming closer than 300,00 km.

[Darth Spock]

Well, I'd think that a photon torpedo would be more likely to sport warp tech than anything, but, since they usually avoid that unless they are already traveling at warp, I hesitate to immediately make that assumption. I looked at the linked video, and I think in this case the first shot against the Cardassian warship actually took a few seconds.

At about 0:33/0:34 on the video, we hear a chime that sounds a bit like a digital phone ringing, immediately followed by Data stating the Phoenix was firing photon torpedoes. After he finishes his sentence, he looks up at the screen, there is a long pause, and they cut to the display at about 0:38.
At this point, the Cardassian ship is barely within the blue rings that indicate the Phoenix's weapon range, but I'd say the ordinance was out of the tubes at least a few seconds, possibly as many as 5 seconds, from the time we hear the chime that seems to indicate a weapon launch.

The same "ring tone" is heard again at about 0:56/0:57, to which Data immediately says that Phoenix was firing again, only this time he doesn't even manage to finish his sentence before target was destroyed, about 2 seconds later. This time, the Cardassian ship was closer, I'd guess just a tad past 2/3 the reach of the weapon overlay. Assuming both attacks were from torpedoes, Id take that to be about 100,000 kps, or 1/3 c. Still pretty darn quick. Now if only they moved that fast when we were actually looking. :D


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EDIT
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Ships move fast. See http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSW-WeaponRange ... #2367-WOUN

Ugh, working off a vague memory of that page, I skipped over it and took a quick review of the original video, only to have a weird gnawing feeling send me back later. Then I discover that I basically rehashed the exact same ground, but not nearly as thoroughly. I even forgot the ships were moving!!! Now I just feel like an idiot. There, now I said it, I can move on....

[Lucky]

Well, I'd think that a photon torpedo would be more likely to sport warp tech than anything, but, since they usually avoid that unless they are already traveling at warp, I hesitate to immediately make that assumption. I looked at the linked video, and I think in this case the first shot against the Cardassian warship actually took a few seconds.

TNG: The Emissary A Warp 9 capable class 8 probe that had its internals removed so it could carry a human/klingon hybrid was fired from a starbase
http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/mem ... -prefix=en

A Photon Torpedo
http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ve_091.jpg

A faster then light rocket the Enterprise-D was capable of shooting down if it could get a targeting lock, and going to warp is not stated to be needed
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albu ... en1000.jpg

TNG: Half A Life would certainly seem to show faster then light photon torpedos fired from a ship not at warp
http://tng.trekcore.com/hd/thumbnails.p ... 105&page=5
http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/thumbna ... =95&page=5
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BFCG3xRAdY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hck31nC84l0
http://www.chakoteya.net/NextGen/196.htm

At about 0:33/0:34 on the video, we hear a chime that sounds a bit like a digital phone ringing, immediately followed by Data stating the Phoenix was firing photon torpedoes. After he finishes his sentence, he looks up at the screen, there is a long pause, and they cut to the display at about 0:38.
At this point, the Cardassian ship is barely within the blue rings that indicate the Phoenix's weapon range, but I'd say the ordinance was out of the tubes at least a few seconds, possibly as many as 5 seconds, from the time we hear the chime that seems to indicate a weapon launch.

The same "ring tone" is heard again at about 0:56/0:57, to which Data immediately says that Phoenix was firing again, only this time he doesn't even manage to finish his sentence before target was destroyed, about 2 seconds later. This time, the Cardassian ship was closer, I'd guess just a tad past 2/3 the reach of the weapon overlay. Assuming both attacks were from torpedoes, Id take that to be about 100,000 kps, or 1/3 c. Still pretty darn quick. Now if only they moved that fast when we were actually looking. :D

Nothing in Star Trek moves fast when the viewer is looking even when the characters and plot/dialog require it though torpedos do often disappear rather quickly such as in Half a Life where the torpedo seems to move faster then light.

Let's look at Star Trek: First Contact(Movie)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYE3nm9voUk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnN-SR_2ovA
The Phoenix starts at 20,000 kilometers a second, and it has about 5 minutes to accelerate to roughly the speed of light so it can go to warp. we are left to conclude that either:
A) The characters are idiots and or liars

B) The visuals are wrong.

C) There is something odd about the ship's systems they use which results in an optical illusion so they only look slow.

Now personally I favor options B and C, and in any analysis of a fictional setting I want more then just a visual to go by.

[Lucky]

The display showed weapon range overlays, and while that was limited to 2D space the radius would remain constant into the 3rd dimension. Since the Phoenix had a lower range according to the display, and it was already 300,000 km distant, it would have to close in order to fire. Which, in any altitude, would require coming closer than 300,000 km.

1) Where is it stated what those rings represent? If the rings represent distence then there was no reason for anyone to be stating range.

2) Photon Torpedos are consistently shown to have ranges measured in at least A.U. if not lightyears (Star Trek: The Motion Picture, TNG: Emissary, Voy: Basics), and Federation starships can target things at lightyears away.
http://neo.jpl.nasa.gov/glossary/au.html

3) The Phoenix was firing from outside the Cardassian warship's range.

[359]

1) Where is it stated what those rings represent? If the rings represent distence then there was no reason for anyone to be stating range.

Picard: "Mister Data, overlay weapon ranges of the two ships."

2) Photon Torpedos are consistently shown to have ranges measured in at least A.U. if not lightyears (Star Trek: The Motion Picture, TNG: Emissary, Voy: Basics), and Federation starships can target things at lightyears away.

In TNG: "Emissary" that's a class 8 probe, not a photon torpedo. And in VOY: "Basics" there is nothing about photons being fired at such ranges, the same goes for The Motion Picture while not at warp.

3) The Phoenix was firing from outside the Cardassian warship's range.

They moved back into range before firing.

[Lucky]

Picard: "Mister Data, overlay weapon ranges of the two ships."

Well then we can just ignore the display since it's wrong.

In TNG: "Emissary" that's a class 8 probe, not a photon torpedo.

Funny how the "probe" is a photon torpedo emptied of anything save the needed propulsion with life support tacked on similar Spock's coffin.

And in VOY: "Basics" there is nothing about photons being fired at such ranges,

I suggest you watch the episode a touch more carefully. Voyager is traveling at warp towards the Kazon, the Kazon are peppering Voyager with torpedos, and Jainway states that Voyager could return fire, but makes it sound as if she thinks it isn't worth it.

the same goes for The Motion Picture while not at warp.

Sorry, but the Klingons are firing on something that is 41 AU or i AU away depending on version.
http://www.chakoteya.net/movies/movie1.html
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/thum ... hp?album=2
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/thum ... ?album=603

They moved back into range before firing.

Never stated or shown.

[2046]

The viewscreen tactical display is fine. It's just that the way it was all usually written, torpedo range is about one light-second, like the phasers, for a sublight ship. At warp, all bets are off.

The Kazon example seems to be the outlier, along with the Timicin episode.

[Picard]

A bit off-topic, but I noticed this:
http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSW-WeaponRange ... #2367-WOUN
"Curiously, it also suggests that the Cardassians have an advantage in weapons range against Nebula Class starships."

Could it be that Federation sacrificed effective weapons range for sake of better close-in performance? (Phaser strips and all).

[359]

Well then we can just ignore the display since it's wrong.

No we can't because no it's not.

Funny how the "probe" is a photon torpedo emptied of anything save the needed propulsion with life support tacked on similar Spock's coffin.

It is odd.

I suggest you watch the episode a touch more carefully. Voyager is traveling at warp towards the Kazon, the Kazon are peppering Voyager with torpedos, and Jainway states that Voyager could return fire, but makes it sound as if she thinks it isn't worth it.

And they're at warp, during which it has been shown that torpedoes have immense range, but they can't seem to make the jump under their own power.

Never stated or shown.

Yes it was: http://tng.trekcore.com/hd/albums/seaso ... hd-180.jpg

[Lucky]

No we can't because no it's not.

1) I've already shown the true ranges are at least measured in AU if not light years. Generations, Half a Life, The Motion Picture, all show FTL torpedos with AU ranges at minimum.

.2) You are painting Starfleet as idiots for no reason. There is no reason for Starfleet to tell the Cardassians what their weapon ranges are effective or maximum.

It is odd.

There's nothing odd about simply changing the payload of a modular system depending on the mission. We see it all the time, a gravimetric torpedo is just a photon torpedo with a different payload, and there's no reason to think any differently of a class-8 probe, and we do the same thing in real life with a number of things.

And they're at warp, during which it has been shown that torpedoes have immense range, but they can't seem to make the jump under their own power.

You're really not thinking this through. Once the torpedo leaves the ship's warp field it must use its own FTL drive, or it will be out run by the ship that launched it.

If you want to claim those ranges aren't useable when the ship is not at warp then you need to prove it. Given a class-8 probe is able to reach warp 9 on its own, and it just a photon torpedo armed with scientific equipment.

Yes it was: http://tng.trekcore.com/hd/albums/seaso ... hd-180.jpg

I've already proven that the chart in question does not show what you claim. Picard wasn't telling the truth.

[2046]

Actually, he doesn't need to prove a negative.

I appreciate your desire for long-range warp-pedoes, but it would be best if you found a clear example of a sublight Federation ship firing torpedoes that had to have gone FTL. The Timicin episode might work, or TOS.

(The Class 8 probe is obviously based on the torpedo, but there is extra volume and different innards.)

Of course, the notion that torpedoes can't go to warp is a TNG:TM idea, and there is no really good reason why it wouldn't work. Torpedoes should all be warp-capable stand-off weapons with ranges measured in light-years. But, that isn't what we see, presumably because they can be shot down given that sort of time. Perhaps that is part of the issue of torpedo ranges as seen in the Phoenix example ... it is a matter of torp shield strength as much as anything else.

[Lucky]

Actually, he doesn't need to prove a negative..

What negative?

I appreciate your desire for long-range warp-pedoes, but it would be best if you found a clear example of a sublight Federation ship firing torpedoes that had to have gone FTL. The Timicin episode might work, or TOS.

(The Class 8 probe is obviously based on the torpedo, but there is extra volume and different innards.)

Of course, the notion that torpedoes can't go to warp is a TNG:TM idea, and there is no really good reason why it wouldn't work. Torpedoes should all be warp-capable stand-off weapons with ranges measured in light-years. But, that isn't what we see, presumably because they can be shot down given that sort of time. Perhaps that is part of the issue of torpedo ranges as seen in the Phoenix example ... it is a matter of torp shield strength as much as anything else.

The TM says phasers are limited to light speed as well, but that was never true.

In Voy: Basics we see torpedos being fired on Voyager as it i approaching at warp. This would overrule TNG: The Wounded as the only ranges that mattered were Cardassian. The Federation wanted to scare the Cardassians.

There were no guts in the Type-8 probe. It had life support added and a humanoid stuffed inside. There is no reason to think a torpedo doesn't have the same propulsion system.