Star Trek-The Wounded-Weapons Calculation

[2046]

The launch technique for the probe was not specified. For all we know it was strapped to a shuttle which, being incapable of high warp, was useless otherwise.

In any case, I agree that the limitation is silly. Failing all else they should have a warp booster that can launch with the torpedo then detach, or the cluster shots of the Galaxy Class should be for such a purpose. But that isn't what we see.

[359]

What negative?

This one:

If you want to claim those ranges aren't useable when the ship is not at warp then you need to prove it.

Because I don't need to prove that the ranges can not be used due to the different initial conditions of the scenario. As silly as the concept may be it does appear that photon torpedoes can not initiate a warp jump, but can travel at warp velocities. And by this observation I no longer need to prove a negative for long range STL firing as that is a different logical staring position.

It occurs to me that this phenomena is not solely limited to torpedoes. The Enterprise engaged in a similar maneuver in TNG: "Force of Nature" when they used a warp coast to rescue a trapped vessel in a region where warp could not be used.

Data: "I suggest we coast into the rift."
Riker: "Coast?"
Data: "We can initiate a brief, high intensity warp pulse from our current position. We should be able to attain sufficient velocity to enter the rift, beam the crew off the Fleming and exit without using our warp engines."
Riker: "All right, let's say we initiate a full power warp pulse. How much time do we need to drop out of warp?"
Data: "If we field saturate the nacelles, we should be able to sustain warp speed for approximately two minutes."

Use of a similar technique could explain torpedoes limited warp capability. If the torpedoes had a set of warp coils that were "saturated" at launch, but had no warp engine, they could warp coast but not actually make the jump themselves. And that would serve to explain their odd behavior, but of course this is pure speculation.

[Lucky]

Because I don't need to prove that the ranges can not be used due to the different initial conditions of the scenario. As silly as the concept may be it does appear that photon torpedoes can not initiate a warp jump, but can travel at warp velocities. And by this observation I no longer need to prove a negative for long range STL firing as that is a different logical staring position.

1) You are making the positive claim they can't do something which means you need to show they can't do it.

You made a claim, and need to provide evidence it is true.

It occurs to me that this phenomena is not solely limited to torpedoes. The Enterprise engaged in a similar maneuver in TNG: "Force of Nature" when they used a warp coast to rescue a trapped vessel in a region where warp could not be used.

Data: "I suggest we coast into the rift."
Riker: "Coast?"
Data: "We can initiate a brief, high intensity warp pulse from our current position. We should be able to attain sufficient velocity to enter the rift, beam the crew off the Fleming and exit without using our warp engines."
Riker: "All right, let's say we initiate a full power warp pulse. How much time do we need to drop out of warp?"
Data: "If we field saturate the nacelles, we should be able to sustain warp speed for approximately two minutes."

Use of a similar technique could explain torpedoes limited warp capability. If the torpedoes had a set of warp coils that were "saturated" at launch, but had no warp engine, they could warp coast but not actually make the jump themselves. And that would serve to explain their odd behavior, but of course this is pure speculation.

That would mean the torpedo would never be able to accelerate once it left the ship's warp field, and that means your hypothesis must be wrong on some level

PICARD: Mister Data? 


DATA: Emergency signal reads as follows. Enterprise to divert to coordinates four-two-three by one one two by five one immediately. Further orders forthcoming. 


RIKER: That's it? What's the emergency? 


DATA: The message does not elaborate. 


RIKER: You'd think they'd at least give us a hint. 


CLANCEY: Course laid in, Captain. 


PICARD: Warp eight. Whenever Starfleet gets enigmatic, I know we're about to face a challenge. Engage. 


DATA: Our destination is a point near the Boradis system. 


PICARD: That area was colonized fairly recently, as I recall. 


DATA: The first Federation outpost was established thirty four years ago on Boradis Three. 


RIKER: Since then, the Federation has colonised several planets in that sector. 


DATA: Yet we are not headed for a specific colony. The coordinates given are outside the Boradis system. 


PICARD: Any problems reported in that area? 


DATA: None, sir. 


PICARD: What the devil is going on? 


WORF: Captain, Starfleet Command is hailing us. 


PICARD: About time. On screen. 


(a woman in Starfleet uniform is sitting behind a desk) 


GROMEK [on viewscreen]: Greetings, Captain Picard. 


PICARD: My compliments, Admiral Gromek. 


GROMEK [on viewscreen]: Captain, you will soon be joined by a Federation special emissary from Starbase One Five Three. We Are now transmitting the specifics. 


DATA: We are receiving, sir. 


GROMEK [on viewscreen]: The rendezvous will be a bit tricky, so it is imperative you reach the intercept point on schedule. 


PICARD: Understood. And the mission? 


GROMEK [on viewscreen]: The envoy will fill you in. You are to cooperate fully. 


PICARD: Admiral, can you give me any details? 


GROMEK [on viewscreen]: Negative. 


PICARD: Admiral, it's a little difficult to prepare for a mission I know nothing about. 


GROMEK [on viewscreen]: I sympathise, Jean-Luc, but Starfleet Command considers this a top security matter. Once the envoy has briefed you, I think you will understand our caution. Gromek out. 


RIKER: Data, what ship is carrying the envoy? 


DATA: Apparently there were no starships available on Starbase One Five Three. The envoy is aboard a class eight probe. 


RIKER: A class eight probe is just over two metres long. 


PICARD: Yes, that's true, Number One. But if the transmitters and the sensors were removed and life-support installed, there would be just enough room for one person. 


RIKER: And it is designed to travel at warp nine. 


DATA: By sending the probe to meet us rather than diverting the Enterprise, they are saving us six point one hours. 


PICARD: Obviously Starfleet feels that time is of the essence. 


RIKER: But still, to seal someone inside a class eight Probe and launch it off. It's a hell of a way to transport a Federation dignitary. 


CLANCEY: (an elegant brunette with cut glass vowels) Coming to three one mark one one three. i


DATA: We are on a course precisely parallel to the probe, sir. 


PICARD: Increase speed to warp eight point nine. 


CLANCEY: Eight point nine, aye. 


PICARD: Full sensors aft. 


WORF: Scanning. 


RIKER: Data, if we project our course beyond the rendezvous coordinates, what lies ahead? 


DATA: As far as I can determine, sir, very little. There are four colonies in the Boradis system, as well as nine other outposts scattered throughout the sector. 


WORF: I have it, sir. Bearing zero five mark two three one. Velocity, warp nine. 


CLANCEY: I see it. 


PICARD: Adjust speed to intercept. 


WORF: Probe is coming up to starboard. Range, eighty two hundred. Tractor beam ready. 


PICARD: Mister La Forge?

We know that there are no vehicles that can achieve warp nine involved, or else it would be used, and there is a good chance that no warp capable vessel was used, but we know the probe was traveling at warp nine for apparently hours.

Again, you unsupported hypothesis falls apart:

WORF: Sir, according to my calculations, a solar probe launched from either the Klingon ship or the planet's surface will take eleven seconds to reach the sun. However, since we do not have an exact point of origin, it will take us between eight and fifteen seconds to lock our weapons onto it.

1) The Solar Probe is a faster then light missile that the Enterprise -D is able to shoot down, and traveling at faster then light speeds is not dependent on an outside device.

2) There is not talk of needing to muck about with the Enterprise-D's warp field to target the faster then light Solar Probe.

3) The Solar Probe and the Class-8Probe were both fired by things without warp drives showing that probes/torpedos are FTL on their own.

There is never any talk of torpedos requiring a warp drive to travel at faster then light speeds, and we are treated to things like the FTL particle beam fired by the Verteron Array.

4) You seem to not be taking into account all of the above, along with Torpedos and phaser beams out accelerating the ship even after leaving the warp field which only extends a few meters in front of the ship.

[Lucky]

The launch technique for the probe was not specified. For all we know it was strapped to a shuttle which, being incapable of high warp, was useless otherwise.

It seems rather clear to me.

PICARD: Mister Data? 


DATA: Emergency signal reads as follows. Enterprise to divert to coordinates four-two-three by one one two by five one immediately. Further orders forthcoming. 


RIKER: That's it? What's the emergency? 


DATA: The message does not elaborate. 


RIKER: You'd think they'd at least give us a hint. 


CLANCEY: Course laid in, Captain. 


PICARD: Warp eight. Whenever Starfleet gets enigmatic, I know we're about to face a challenge. Engage. 


DATA: Our destination is a point near the Boradis system. 


PICARD: That area was colonized fairly recently, as I recall. 


DATA: The first Federation outpost was established thirty four years ago on Boradis Three. 


RIKER: Since then, the Federation has colonised several planets in that sector. 


DATA: Yet we are not headed for a specific colony. The coordinates given are outside the Boradis system. 


PICARD: Any problems reported in that area? 


DATA: None, sir. 


PICARD: What the devil is going on? 


WORF: Captain, Starfleet Command is hailing us. 


PICARD: About time. On screen. 


(a woman in Starfleet uniform is sitting behind a desk) 


GROMEK [on viewscreen]: Greetings, Captain Picard. 


PICARD: My compliments, Admiral Gromek. 


GROMEK [on viewscreen]: Captain, you will soon be joined by a Federation special emissary from Starbase One Five Three. We Are now transmitting the specifics. 


DATA: We are receiving, sir. 


GROMEK [on viewscreen]: The rendezvous will be a bit tricky, so it is imperative you reach the intercept point on schedule. 


PICARD: Understood. And the mission? 


GROMEK [on viewscreen]: The envoy will fill you in. You are to cooperate fully. 


PICARD: Admiral, can you give me any details? 


GROMEK [on viewscreen]: Negative. 


PICARD: Admiral, it's a little difficult to prepare for a mission I know nothing about. 


GROMEK [on viewscreen]: I sympathise, Jean-Luc, but Starfleet Command considers this a top security matter. Once the envoy has briefed you, I think you will understand our caution. Gromek out. 


RIKER: Data, what ship is carrying the envoy? 


DATA: Apparently there were no starships available on Starbase One Five Three. The envoy is aboard a class eight probe. 


RIKER: A class eight probe is just over two metres long. 


PICARD: Yes, that's true, Number One. But if the transmitters and the sensors were removed and life-support installed, there would be just enough room for one person. 


RIKER: And it is designed to travel at warp nine. 


DATA: By sending the probe to meet us rather than diverting the Enterprise, they are saving us six point one hours. 


PICARD: Obviously Starfleet feels that time is of the essence. 


RIKER: But still, to seal someone inside a class eight Probe and launch it off. It's a hell of a way to transport a Federation dignitary. 


CLANCEY: (an elegant brunette with cut glass vowels) Coming to three one mark one one three. i


DATA: We are on a course precisely parallel to the probe, sir. 


PICARD: Increase speed to warp eight point nine. 


CLANCEY: Eight point nine, aye. 


PICARD: Full sensors aft. 


WORF: Scanning. 


RIKER: Data, if we project our course beyond the rendezvous coordinates, what lies ahead? 


DATA: As far as I can determine, sir, very little. There are four colonies in the Boradis system, as well as nine other outposts scattered throughout the sector. 


WORF: I have it, sir. Bearing zero five mark two three one. Velocity, warp nine. 


CLANCEY: I see it. 


PICARD: Adjust speed to intercept. 


WORF: Probe is coming up to starboard. Range, eighty two hundred. Tractor beam ready. 


PICARD: Mister La Forge?

It appears that there were no ships involved, and definitely nothing capable of warp 9 beside the probe.

This means the probe had to accelerate to warp nine on its own.

In any case, I agree that the limitation is silly. Failing all else they should have a warp booster that can launch with the torpedo then detach, or the cluster shots of the Galaxy Class should be for such a purpose. But that isn't what we see.

Voy: Basics and TNG: Generation we do see multiple light minute if not more ranges used.

I fail to see when these ranges should be used? I may be missing something, but we are talking about targets that are shown in almost every episode to be able to reach roughly the speed of light in seconds to reach the warp threshold, and use warp drives to dodge torpedos on occasion.

We also know that ships purposely decloak at no more then 3 kilometers but no less then .5 kilometers from the target in order to alpha strike.

[359]

1) You are making the positive claim they can't do something which means you need to show they can't do it.

A)I have shown they can't.
B)I don't need to prove those ranges are inapplicable.

As for showing the range limitation. All throughout Star Trek there are references to maximum range for both phasers and torpedoes. These ranges tend to be on the order of hundreds of thousands of kilometers. In fact the very purpose of this includes one of them: TNG: "The Wounded." In this episode it is clearly shown that sub-light ranges are ≤300,000 km. That right there is evidence.

Now the second part. That one bit of evidence is all that is necessary to prove my position within the scope of this argument, whether or not FTL torpedo ranges also apply to STL combat. Since there is no evidence that the ranges from FTL can be applied to STL, and there is at least one uncontested data-point demonstrating lower range limits in STL than those observed in FTL, then we can conclude with certainty that FTL torpedo ranges can not be applied to STL combat.

Beyond that there is no further needed explanation, I just happened to feel like generating a plausible one through the means of warp coasting. Additionally by the probe not being a torpedo it can not be used to invalidate any argument in the context of this discussion.

And again, just because it does not make perfect sense does not mean it can't be true within the bounds of this fictional universe which is inconsistently portrayed and we do not know everything about.

That would mean the torpedo would never be able to accelerate once it left the ship's warp field, and that means your hypothesis must be wrong on some level

Umm... No.

For that to invalidate my hypothesis there would need to be some need for, or example of, a torpedo accelerating after being fired from a warp vessel. Since none actually change either speed or velocity while at warp there is no such reason for my hypothesis to be considered false on these grounds.

We know that there are no vehicles that can achieve warp nine involved, or else it would be used, and there is a good chance that no warp capable vessel was used, but we know the probe was traveling at warp nine for apparently hours

Riker: "And it is designed to travel at warp nine."

Hey, look. The probe is designed to be a warp capable craft. Funny, I don't see where is says anything about torpedoes. Oh, wait. My mistake, it just doesn't.

3) The Solar Probe and the Class-8Probe were both fired by things without warp drives showing that probes/torpedos are FTL on their own.

It shows that probes are warp capable, it does not show that torpedoes are. Furthermore the demonstrated limited range of torpedoes indicates that they are not warp capable.

4) You seem to not be taking into account all of the above, along with Torpedos and phaser beams out accelerating the ship even after leaving the warp field which only extends a few meters in front of the ship.

They do not "out accelerate" they outpace. They are simply going faster, that has nothing to do with acceleration.

[Jedi Master Spock]

It's really worth considering phasers and photon torpedoes separately, and really worth considering why a range is "maximal."

For a beam weapon, this can be a combination of angular precision, beam focus, lag time to target, even the ship's sensor systems. All of these suggest that maximum effective range ought to be different for different targets. Note, by the way, that at 1 light-second, you have a total time-lag of 2 seconds given a lightspeed beam and lightspeed sensors, which seem to be in at least partial use for targeting (see the Picard Maneuver).

For photon torpedoes, well, we know that they're essentially missiles. They have drive systems of their own, almost certainly shields of their own, powered presumably by the on-board anti-matter. Turn the drive and shields off for a long period, and the missile can coast in space for a very long distance. Effective range ought to be different for different uses. It's harder to justify a hard and fast limit on range based on a powered envelope, because why should the power necessarily be at maximum?

IMO, the best way to reconcile "The Wounded" with, say, "Half a Life," or "Emissary," is really to assume that "The Wounded" is referring to effective combat range from ship to ship, rather than that we're dealing with fundamentally different hardware.

Ships are, after all, tricky targets. They evade. They have shields. They can (and will) shoot down incoming missiles if those missiles are not adequately shielded / evasive / etc. Can the Enterprise send a torpedo across a solar system, eventually impacting on a target? We should say yes; it seems perfectly reasonable. Will the Enterprise do so against an enemy ship? Evidence suggests not.

There is actually quite a collection of stated ranges in Star Trek, starting with TOS. And in TOS, the ranges are generally < 100,000 km. The ranges given directly by dialogue related to ship-to-ship combat are numbered among the more consistent items in the Star Trek canon - much more so than the visual effects - and, being relatively consistent, should be favored.

[Lucky]

A)I have shown they can't.

Then please repost the evidence as I can't seem to find it.

B)I don't need to prove those ranges are inapplicable.

If you say that something is true then there must be at least indirect evidence of it.

As for showing the range limitation. All throughout Star Trek there are references to maximum range for both phasers and torpedoes. These ranges tend to be on the order of hundreds of thousands of kilometers. In fact the very purpose of this includes one of them: TNG: "The Wounded." In this episode it is clearly shown that sub-light ranges are ≤300,000 km. That right there is evidence.

1) This is not evidence for STL phasers or STL torpedos. You're confusing effective range with maximum range. Ships are known to dodge by going to warp remember, and Impulse alone reaches the warp threshold which is roughly the speed of light in seconds.

Heck, Impulse is arguably a faster then light drive on its own.

2) You are taking things out of context. There is no reason for the Federation to give away their own weapon ranges to the Cardassians. The Federation just needs to scare the Cardassians enough so they realize they are at a great disadvantage as the Federation was at a point where it simply needed to buy time to recover, but could still smack the Cardis down with ease if need be.

Now the second part. That one bit of evidence is all that is necessary to prove my position within the scope of this argument, whether or not FTL torpedo ranges also apply to STL combat. Since there is no evidence that the ranges from FTL can be applied to STL, and there is at least one uncontested data-point demonstrating lower range limits in STL than those observed in FTL, then we can conclude with certainty that FTL torpedo ranges can not be applied to STL combat.

Since you've provide no evidence yet.

Beyond that there is no further needed explanation, I just happened to feel like generating a plausible one through the means of warp coasting.

Which requires even example of FTL torpedos to be fired at warp.
The Motion Picture

Half a Life

Generations

Spock's coffin

The Torpedos from Into Darkness which seemed to have light year ranges.

And ignores stationary launched FTL weapons and beams...

Additionally by the probe not being a torpedo it can not be used to invalidate any argument in the context of this discussion.

That might be true if not for the fact we see what the thing is called change based on the payload.

A Photon Torpedo only differs from a Gravimetric Torpedo and warp flare in warhead just as we see a Class-8 Probe only differs in payload.

And again, just because it does not make perfect sense does not mean it can't be true within the bounds of this fictional universe which is inconsistently portrayed and we do not know everything about.

If by not make sense you mean directly contradicts what is shown, then yes, but you're all gun-ho to ignore inconvenient truths.

Umm... No.

For that to invalidate my hypothesis there would need to be some need for, or example of, a torpedo accelerating after being fired from a warp vessel. Since none actually change either speed or velocity while at warp there is no such reason for my hypothesis to be considered false on these grounds.

Shame the visual effects always seemingly show things going slower then they are. We know the Phoenix in First Contact was accelerating at an average of about 900 kilometers a second, but never seems to accelerate.

I just wish i could find a video that showed the Quantum Torpedos fired at it.


Here is Half a Life with the FTL light minute or more photon torpedos fired while standing still on screen. And here is the Half a Life screen caps just to show the video wasn't messed up.

Man does that trailer make it look like they blew up the star on purpose.

Riker: "And it is designed to travel at warp nine."

Hey, look. The probe is designed to be a warp capable craft. Funny, I don't see where is says anything about torpedoes. Oh, wait. My mistake, it just doesn't.

I've already covered this above. What a torpedo casing is called is dependent on the payload.

It shows that probes are warp capable, it does not show that torpedoes are. Furthermore the demonstrated limited range of torpedoes indicates that they are not warp capable.

1) And it is shown that a class-8 probe is a photon torpedo with a different payload just like a gravimetric torpedo or warp flare.

Heck, we do pretty much the same thing in real life.

2) You're ignoring the on screen FTL photon torpedos, and assuming that effective range is the same as maximum range.

They do not "out accelerate" they outpace. They are simply going faster, that has nothing to do with acceleration.

So you are saying that torpedos fire at STL the torpedo is launched at FTL speeds... That's some launcher in your eyes, and defending ships are so polite as to not speed up when they see a torpedo coming.

I can't find a torpedo launch in Star Trek where the Torpedo does not appear to accelerate after leaving the tube. The glow grows and the torpedo speeds up.

[359]

IMO, the best way to reconcile "The Wounded" with, say, "Half a Life," or "Emissary," is really to assume that "The Wounded" is referring to effective combat range from ship to ship, rather than that we're dealing with fundamentally different hardware.

Of course the maximum range of any moving projectile in space is infinite. So for there to be any use we must be restricting the discussion to combat ranges, which is the clear context of this discussion. Specifically if one can apply combat ranges seen during FTL to combat seen in STL.

Then please repost the evidence as I can't seem to find it.

Right here in TNG: "The Wounded" wherein Data says that the ships are 300,000 km apart which is shown to be outside the overlaid weapons ranges. That right there is evidence. Later in the same sequence the Phoenix is stated to be moving out of the Cardassian's weapons range, again to the order of 300,000 km.

Now if you don't want to accept that as evidence: fine. Then this discussion ends here, because our two views of canon prevent us from coming to an agreement and it can only devolve into an argument over what is considered as evidence, which really doesn't need further argument within the debate.

If you say that something is true then there must be at least indirect evidence of it.

Exactly, you have yet to show even indirect evidence that demonstrates that ranges at warp can be applied to combat while not at warp. Since my position is a passive negative it does not need proving by default, due to the differing initial conditions of warp vs not warp combat.

1) This is not evidence for STL phasers or STL torpedos. You're confusing effective range with maximum range. Ships are known to dodge by going to warp remember, and Impulse alone reaches the warp threshold which is roughly the speed of light in seconds.

I agree on the impulse speed, but that still is not warp. So the need still stands that you must demonstrate that ranges at warp can be applied to combat while not at warp.

2) You are taking things out of context. There is no reason for the Federation to give away their own weapon ranges to the Cardassians. The Federation just needs to scare the Cardassians enough so they realize they are at a great disadvantage as the Federation was at a point where it simply needed to buy time to recover, but could still smack the Cardis down with ease if need be.

No I am not taking this out of context. And this statement you have made is so so irreverent I am not sure what to say other than that is not an argument and warrants no actual response, yet I keep typing despite it...

Which requires even example of FTL torpedos to be fired at warp.

Could you please re-state this? I'm not sure what you are trying to say with this sentence.

And ignores stationary launched FTL weapons and beams...

Which have never been seen...

That might be true if not for the fact we see what the thing is called change based on the payload.

Yeah, its called a probe.

A Photon Torpedo only differs from a Gravimetric Torpedo and warp flare in warhead just as we see a Class-8 Probe only differs in payload.

No. A gravimetric torpedo is a different warhead/pay load. A probe is something else entirely, we do not know what its contents are. Other than a class-8 probe sharing a vaguely similar shape to a standard photon torpedo of the time there are no known similarities. A look at the Memory Alpha page on probes shows pictures of many different common probe configurations. Additionally whenever a probe is launched in TNG, the device has a rocket-like thruster flare behind it which is distinctly different from a photon torpedo.

If by not make sense you mean directly contradicts what is shown, then yes, but you're all gun-ho to ignore inconvenient truths.

I apologize in advance for the harsh tone, but if by directly contradicts what is shown you mean the show directly contradicts itself on occasion (not to mention your position) then yes. So who has been shown to be ignoring inconvenient truths (such as TNG: "The Wounded")?

Shame the visual effects always seemingly show things going slower then they are. We know the Phoenix in First Contact was accelerating at an average of about 900 kilometers a second, but never seems to accelerate.

Sorry, I was unclear with my statement. By that I meant that none are shown to accelerate on the scale of multiples of the speed of light.

And with regards to TNG: "Half a life" there is no time constraint on their transit to the star, nor is there any real indication as to their distance.

I've already covered this above.

Yes, and so have I.

So you are saying that torpedos fire at STL the torpedo is launched at FTL speeds... That's some launcher in your eyes, and defending ships are so polite as to not speed up when they see a torpedo coming.

Sorry, this is the same clarity mistake as above with accelerate on the scale of multiples of the speed of light.

[359]

Now I am re-stating this in a separate post because it is important.

If you deny that the observed and concrete maximum ranges given in TNG: "The Wounded" are admissible evidence, then don't bother responding to my long post as I won't bother responding to yours due to a fundamental difference, which I do not think can be resolved within the context of this thread.

[2046]

Quite so, 359.

Also notable is Lucky bringing up ships dodging STL torpedoes by going to warp. By his argument, shouldn't that not work? The torpedo need only jump to warp and follow.

[Lucky]

Also notable is Lucky bringing up ships dodging STL torpedoes by going to warp. By his argument, shouldn't that not work? The torpedo need only jump to warp and follow.

SULU: Phaser overload. Control circuit burnout. 


(Spock goes under his station to put out the flames) 


SPOCK: It'll take time to correct, sir. 


SULU: Captain, are they surrendering? 


(The Romulan ship has become visible) 


KIRK: Full astern! Emergency warp speed! 


(A red plasma blast is heading towards them) 


KIRK: Do we have emergency warp? 


SULU: Full power, sir. It's still overtaking us. If we can get one phaser working, sir, one shot might detonate it. 


KIRK: Navigation? 


STILES: Estimate it'll overtake us in two minutes, sir. 


KIRK: Phasers, Mister Spock?


SPOCK: Impossible, Captain. 


KIRK: Feed this to the space recorder and jettison immediately. 


RAND: Captain, should I continue log entry? 


KIRK: Yeoman. Affirmative. Continue log entries. 


RAND: Yes, sir. 


SULU: Ten seconds to impact. Captain, It's dissipating, sir. 


STILES: It must have a range limit. 


(Rand stands as close as humanly possible to Kirk) 


SULU: Five, four, three, two, one. Impact! 


(Everyone gets thrown about a bit) 


KIRK: Limited range. 


SPOCK: Phasers operational, Captain. Intruder bearing one eleven mark fourteen. 


KIRK: Back to his old course. 


SPOCK: He may think we're destroyed, Captain. 


KIRK: I wouldn't make that assumption. I don't think their Captain will either. 


SPOCK: Intruder holding steady. Course one eleven mark fourteen. 


KIRK: Same as before, Mister Sulu. Stay with him.

It doesn't work well, but if you have a large enough head start the torpedo will run out of fuel.

[Lucky]

Right here in TNG: "The Wounded" wherein Data says that the ships are 300,000 km apart which is shown to be outside the overlaid weapons ranges. That right there is evidence. Later in the same sequence the Phoenix is stated to be moving out of the Cardassian's weapons range, again to the order of 300,000 km.

Now if you don't want to accept that as evidence: fine. Then this discussion ends here, because our two views of canon prevent us from coming to an agreement and it can only devolve into an argument over what is considered as evidence, which really doesn't need further argument within the debate.

If you deny that the observed and concrete maximum ranges given in TNG: "The Wounded" are admissible evidence, then don't bother responding to my long post as I won't bother responding to yours due to a fundamental difference, which I do not think can be resolved within the context of this thread.

The problem is that this kind implies the Federation is not willing to give the Cardassians data on Federation weapons systems. It kind of invalidates the entire OP:

TELLE: I will protest this, Klingon! 


PICARD: Lieutenant? 


WORF: He was found at a computer station on deck thirty five, attempting to access information on our weapon systems. 


TELLE: A lie, Gul Macet. I was studying the terminal interface systems. They're more efficient than ours. I have no idea what was in the files. 


MACET: What business did you have going near one of their computers? 


TELLE: But, Gul Macet, I meant nothing. There was no harm done. 


MACET: Go to your quarters. You are confined there for the duration of this expedition. 


TELLE: As you wish, sir. 


PICARD: Mister Worf, please accompany him. 


WORF: Gladly, Captain.

[2046]

1. The Romulan plasma weapon from TOS is not a photon torpedo.
2. Cardassians would want info on Federation weapons even if the Cardies had greater effective range.