Starfighters useful in Wars?

[User15088]

Well, being a new member, I don't know, if this is the exact place, nor if this hasn't been already discussed, but what exactly is the point of starfighters in Star Wars?
I mean, I don't know much about the ICS-issues, and only read some weapon power-analysis' from SDN, also unfamilier with the issues of the site. But from both, greatly different cap ship and starfighter powers, I get. So are they wrong - and then: how & why, or fighters being about, what, 6 magnitudes weaker, how can they be reasonably used?
Asking the question also having CW S01E19 - Venators in danger mainly because of Vulture droids and Munificents destroyed by Y-wings - and that around the net, I read that fighters like Y- and B-wings were designed against larger vessels.

So... what now?

[Mike DiCenso]

Welcome to the forum, Dan.

There are indeed quite a lot of issues with the SDN firepower analyses, and that has been gone over in many a thread here on SFJN, including a number of it's Database wiki articles. You may also wish to use the forum's search feature to find relevant threads relating to your question.
-Mike.

[2046]

You have it right insofar as the opposing model not fitting with 'reality'. A variety of off-the-wall hypotheses have been employed to explain the model's failure, such as the claim that SW shield bubbles are huge and fighters can enter that perimeter with impunity to do damage to minor systems… but again, we have Vultures taking out Venators, boarding rams, et cetera. So, even the ad hoc rationalizations fail.

In reality, the fighter/capship relation is more in keeping with WW2-style engagements after which they were modeled, and as such vessel resilience is simply not many orders beyond fighter output.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Hi Dan and welcome.

Mmm, it seems that there are two people now who'd be really interested into reading the fighters vs capital ship thread I talked about recently.

Lo and behold! There it is!

Fighters & Capital ships in the films

[Mr. Oragahn]

I might also add the pages of another thread wherein I list a variety of cases showing how heavy cannons in SW seem to easily be dialed down to such low levels that they destroy starfighters without outright vaporizing them out of the sky.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Oh and there was a more EU orientated thread where I and JMS talked about the role of ships, notably Rebel ones and how they operated as carriers. This thread would be good to read in conjunction with the first one.

[Darth Spock]

Hello Dan, and welcome! I'm not the "new guy" anymore, yahoo!

Indeed, Star Wars fighters seem rather out of place, and the topic recently came up in another post:

As illogical as it is, fighters seem to pose a disproportionate threat to capital ships, and that doesn't seem about to change. That is a topic for another discussion.

We actually got such a topic, a few years ago. You might appreciate it and bump it with interesting thoughts.
I just need to find it first...

Mmm, it seems that there are two people now who'd be really interested into reading the fighters vs capital ship thread I talked about recently.

Lo and behold! There it is!

Fighters & Capital ships in the films

There it is! I had gone looking but somehow missed that. I think I would like to bump that thread, looking at a few specific points, so I'll try to keep my comments here brief, and cover the minutia later.

A couple more threads on the subject here:
http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... t=32&p=172

http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... ?f=8&t=241

You have it right insofar as the opposing model not fitting with 'reality'. A variety of off-the-wall hypotheses have been employed to explain the model's failure....
....
In reality, the fighter/capship relation is more in keeping with WW2-style engagements after which they were modeled, and as such vessel resilience is simply not many orders beyond fighter output.

While cinematics are certainly the driving force, I've been trying to look at the strange tactics as representing a logical response to legitimate circumstances. A theory I'm partial to, is that SW shields don't operate as static, easily quantified barriers in vanilla sci-fi fashion. So far, canon sources have referred to ray shields, deflector shields, thermal shields (SW:TCW S2:E16 Cat and Mouse), and we've seen numerous variations in energy barriers. Seeing how not only light fighters, but smaller mounted cannons on capital ships seem to be be generally favored over small numbers of larger weapons, it seems that tactics other than brute force are preferred for taking down defensive shields.
We also know that shields can be focused to cover specific portions of ships, that shields can be "angled," presumably to increase their effectiveness against incoming fire, and that shields aren't left on constantly, even during military operations (the captain called to raise shields on the ISD that was pursuing the Falcon when Han turned to attack in TESB.)

In light of all this, I think that, short of impractically massive weapon bursts, such as from the Hoth ion cannon, or the second Death Star's main gun, it's generally considered more practical to circumvent enemy shields than simply try to hammer through them. Specifically, the stopping power of SW shields seem to drastically outclass the penetration abilities of most weapons, but those shields are full of holes.

Looking back at SW:ANH, we are told that the Rebels need to use proton torpedoes to defeat the Death Star's ray shields. In CW S1:E20-Innocents of Ryloth, we see Separatist forces referring to a "new proton cannon," and that the Republic forces were subsequently surprised to find the enemy was "penetrating" their shields. Given the variety of shield types, it seems likely that a variety of specially designed weaponry, delivered from a variety of craft, could prove advantageous.

As for fighters specifically, obviously they would force a target to spread its shields over the entire ship, as opposed to focusing them, as the events of CW S1:E6-Downfall of a Droid illustrated. Considering that shields are also "angled," even spreading the shields over the entire ship may leave the shields more vulnerable to faster moving craft capable of firing from less predictable angles at close range. Of course, looking at the space battle over Naboo in TPM, a relativity small fighter force was incapable of defeating the droid control ship's shields, especially while harassed by its defense fighters.
Other examples of fighters posing a threat to capital ships usually involve newer craft, designed during an active conflict, undoubtedly sporting newer weaponry than the Naboo militia in a period of relative peace. Other times, such as in SW:CW S:01:E19, Storm Over Ryloth, ramming attacks were used. Additionally, most other engagements take place in the presence of larger capital ships, where the fighters are working in tandem with the larger craft.

To sum it up, I believe the presence of fighters in Star Wars, and similarly the use of many small guns on capital ships as opposed to larger ones, stems from the nature of the defensive systems employed. I imagine they are very good at stopping incoming fire, even against very high yields. But I think these shield systems are strained more through use in general than by the power of the weapon they are blocking, within reason, of course. Much like, if you've ever played the old Super Return of the Jedi on the SNES, levels where you pilot the Millennium Falcon, you could activate your shield to protect from damage, but the shields reserve was limited.

For more concrete, real world examples, think along the lines of ceramic plates used in body armor, or the reactive armor on tanks. Each is capable of protecting against advanced and powerful weaponry, but can also be "activated," basically, damaged, by ordinance less powerful than it is designed to stop.

[User15088]

Thank you all. I since read a little about the ICS, SDN... and I mostly agree with the critics. Also, after reading some firepower scalings, I even dared making one of my own.
I'll go read the offered topics now (or, more likely, tomorrow morning).

[Jedi Master Spock]

Another one of the long list of reasons why starfighters have been inconvenient for the Saxtonite model of Star Wars is that fighters are among the ships whose technical details are discussed in older, pre-ICS EU sources. So we have sources saying that fighters have fusion reactors; titanium hulls; that proton torpedos have kiloton yields (Star Wars Technical Journal); and other such inconvenient things.

This is not such a big deal anymore, I suppose, now that EU completism is pretty thoroughly dead.

It is one of the most distinctive elements of the Saxtonite model. If I see someone bad-mouthing Star Wars fighters relative to Star Wars capital ships, that's usually where they got the idea. Pretty much everything in universe implies that fighters are not useless in ship-to-ship combat.

[Trinoya]

Welcome to the forum!

On another note: thanks to an episode of the clone wars we also know that Ground based vehicles are a decided threat to capital ships once the shields are gone. Honestly fighters make more sense than nearly all the super ship designs, especially with the death of the ICS.

[Lucky]

On another note: thanks to an episode of the clone wars we also know that Ground based vehicles are a decided threat to capital ships once the shields are gone. Honestly fighters make more sense than nearly all the super ship designs, especially with the death of the ICS.

I usually think of theCIS proton cannons at Ryloth that were shooting down shooting down shielded Republic troop transports with shells that exploded like flak.

Sometimes i wonder how much thought goes into designing things in Sci-fi settings sometimes.>_<

[Darth Spock]

On another note: thanks to an episode of the clone wars we also know that Ground based vehicles are a decided threat to capital ships once the shields are gone. Honestly fighters make more sense than nearly all the super ship designs, especially with the death of the ICS.

I usually think of theCIS proton cannons at Ryloth that were shooting down shooting down shielded Republic troop transports with shells that exploded like flak.

Here:

Looking back at SW:ANH, we are told that the Rebels need to use proton torpedoes to defeat the Death Star's ray shields. In CW S1:E20-Innocents of Ryloth, we see Separatist forces referring to a "new proton cannon," and that the Republic forces were subsequently surprised to find the enemy was "penetrating" their shields.

Sometimes i wonder how much thought goes into designing things in Sci-fi settings sometimes.>_<

Well, I certainly hear you there....

[Mr. Oragahn]

I think I've thought long enough and came up with the antiton guided projectile. It can't be yielded.
What I wrote above is particularly deep on multiple levels btw.