Starfleet Jedi

Well first as long UFP foot soldier set phaser to kill Stromtrooper well go down. Also very likely UFP soldiers would take no loses short hit to head.

UFP stander foot solder even aid personal force field or just armor itself prevent that personal being vaporize. Prevent Klingon disruptive fire going one though the other. Klingon used there disrupter we saw that did vaporize the Oda men in Star Trek deep Space Nine way of the Warrior. It want nearly right though them. UFP armed able prevent that part entirely. While Star Trek fans claim two killed. Possible also just knock out either case we did not know.

This:


Seriously though, the scenario here is very broad and open ended. I personally think the outcome would come down to chance, specific details of who is doing what, where, how urgently is who is attacking who, and of course, stepping out of universe, narrative. Which takes us to what I see as the root assertion: That fully equipped Star Fleet troopers have defensive apparatus which would provide a significant advantage against storm trooper blasters.

I vote no.
Here's why:

-1. The force fields you alluded to don't have a hard canon existence. Sure, they should exist, but outside of video games the closest we've seen to standard issue non Borg personal shields were the life support belts from ST:TAS, which I understand holds little to no canon status, and even they weren't rated for combat.

-2. I can't recall having seen the padded tunics worn by combat ready Star Fleet soldiers in action. Sure, the one poor guy in "Nor to Battle the Strong" had some severe burn marks on his tunic, but we didn't see the circumstances of how they got there, we can't say that he survived a disruptor blast right to the chest from the limited information we got there. He was also very much fatally wounded, so how useful a defensive measure that tunic was is debatable any way. Additionally, I re-watched the battle scene referenced in Way of the Warrior, and while one of the DS9 security members did have a lingering glow in his back and front after taking a disruptor blast, I didn't see any one get vaporized.

Basically, I still think this boils down to a classic battle of the "red shirts" vs the "mooks," at least until the Fed's get serious and open up some serious "wide beam at max power" whamie, assuming they can afford the collateral damage...

In Deep Space Nine Homefront they did talk personal force field.

Also in the battle Ajion Prime we get I often though example. You close it goes off it does not even touch her. Even could also just been effective camera



Of course i have my theory why never talk never used much. Some energy get though without question.

Jasonb wrote:In Deep Space Nine Homefront they did talk personal force field.

Ah, a good reference, and while not seeing them in action doesn't help, I never questioned the existence of photon grenades despite only being mentioned, not seen. So the UFP may well employ such devices in some cases.

Jasonb wrote: Also in the battle Ajion Prime we get I often though example. You close it goes off it does not even touch her. Even could also just been effective camera

Duh, we did see Star Fleet soldiers in action, I forgot. But, that doesn't really help your point, she died... Additionally, even if personal force fields are part of standard equipment for a UFP soldier, such tech wouldn't be completely unfamiliar to the Empire.

While not commonly seen, don't forget droidekas used infantry sized shields, and many factions were seen using riot shields of a sort during the Clone Wars. My point being that such equipment would not be completely foreign to the stormtroopers (in spite of their sub-par track record for competency.) Also, as long as our combatants are resorting to seldom seen armaments, don't forget those funky cylinders on the troopers belts are potent explosives, apparently only to be used by "hero's," along with the grappling hook. Still, while they never use them, almost every single trooper carries one...

Darth Spock wrote:This:

Not eally, most of the red shirts would make it or the captain would never have a crew.

Darth Spock wrote: -1. The force fields you alluded to don't have a hard canon existence. Sure, they should exist, but outside of video games the closest we've seen to standard issue non Borg personal shields were the life support belts from ST:TAS, which I understand holds little to no canon status, and even they weren't rated for combat.

DS9: Homefront
LEYTON: Mister President, we can use the Lakota's transporters and communications system to mobilise every Starfleet officer on Earth in less than twelve hours. We've been preparing for something like this for a long time. We have stockpiles of phaser rifles, personal forcefields, photon grenades, enough to equip an entire army. I can start getting men on the streets immediately.

Darth Spock wrote: -2. I can't recall having seen the padded tunics worn by combat ready Star Fleet soldiers in action. Sure, the one poor guy in "Nor to Battle the Strong" had some severe burn marks on his tunic, but we didn't see the circumstances of how they got there, we can't say that he survived a disruptor blast right to the chest from the limited information we got there. He was also very much fatally wounded, so how useful a defensive measure that tunic was is debatable any way.

I'd suggest you look up "Padded Football Shirt" on Google.

You see Worf and the other main cast wearing padded uniforms all the time. This type of clothing is worn but people who take part in sports such as Football, Rugby, Basketball, MMA, etc, and there are also out of universe reasons this was done.

Star Fleet uniforms are fireproof as Lore proved, and help protect against extreme cold.

Darth Spock wrote: Additionally, I re-watched the battle scene referenced in Way of the Warrior, and while one of the DS9 security members did have a lingering glow in his back and front after taking a disruptor blast, I didn't see any one get vaporized.

Disruptors don't cause thermal damage(TNG: Hero worship), and at least one disruptor blast sent a Bajoran flying backwards.

Lucky wrote:I'd suggest you look up "Padded Football Shirt" on Google.

You see Worf and the other main cast wearing padded uniforms all the time. This type of clothing is worn but people who take part in sports such as Football, Rugby, Basketball, MMA, etc, and there are also out of universe reasons this was done.

Star Fleet uniforms are fireproof as Lore proved, and help protect against extreme cold.

Okay... Padding is a better armor than no armor... But I'm looking at whether it will stop an energy beam weapon. I still wouldn't let a stormie shoot at me if I were wearing it.
UFP pajamas probably are flame retardant, so are the young'uns versions on Earth, but that doesn't translate to "will reliably protect you from energy weapons or an open flame."
I believe this was already covered in an earlier thread anyway:
http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... f=8&t=6611
http://tng.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x13/ ... hd_497.jpg
http://tng.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x13/ ... hd_498.jpg

That interest point Klingon disruptor blast sent a Bajoran flying backwards after he get hit. Even saw something like to in Star Trek Search for Spock on that BOP that Kinglon Caption kill officer destroy science ship. He also want little bit flying as well.

Fact padding armor prevent the UFP soldier flying backwards it means also prevent good among energy from effect UFP soldier not enough prevent the UFP soldier at minimal knock out or killed. If the UFP soldiers fire fight kill or knock out is guess work. Padd armor at minimal prevent kind close range explosive type of death.

Means that UFP soldier padd armor be minimal enough protect hand grenade type shock-wave easily. I hardly call stromtrooper blast storng enough deliver anywere near that level strong hit target. Look padd armor must likley protect UFP soldier getting kill battle.

Jasonb wrote:That interest point Klingon disruptor blast sent a Bajoran flying backwards after he get hit. Even saw something like to in Star Trek Search for Spock on that BOP that Kinglon Caption kill officer destroy science ship. He also want little bit flying as well.

Fact padding armor prevent the UFP soldier flying backwards it means also prevent good among energy from effect UFP soldier not enough prevent the UFP soldier at minimal knock out or killed. If the UFP soldiers fire fight kill or knock out is guess work. Padd armor at minimal prevent kind close range explosive type of death.

Same battle, most of the Bajorans don't go flying backwards after being shot by Klingons. Furthermore, the one that did, fell off a balcony, which greatly increased the visual effect of his being sent "flying." For that matter, we've seen clones sent flying from time to time in a very similar manner to what the Bajorans did in that battle.

Jasonb wrote:Means that UFP soldier padd armor be minimal enough protect hand grenade type shock-wave easily. I hardly call stromtrooper blast storng enough deliver anywere near that level strong hit target. Look padd armor must likley protect UFP soldier getting kill battle.

An arbitrary assumption, there's no way we can reliably conclude that a UFP soldier can survive a hand grenade at point blank range. If we make such assumptions regarding Fed padding based on such vague visual references, then equally relevant are the assertions that clone commando Gregor survived at the end of the SW:CW episode "Missing in Action," since we didn't actually see him die.

Or that Echo is alive: http://www.starwars.com/news/to-fans-of ... -thank-you Yup, he survives this: http://youtu.be/lxR5g_zxQKw
Is that canon? I'm not sure, I generally tend to ignore what isn't seen on screen, but maybe.

Finally, we have this: http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... omb#p51044
Lucky rightly points out the incongruity of the scene. I myself believe either the troopers seen getting up after the explosion were from another group nearby, but not with their face right on top of the bomb, or at the very least, this was a directional charge, forcing the brunt of the blast away. Either way, it's as good an example of trooper armor absorbing a concussive blast, an even better example, I think, than using the example of a UFP soldier not being thrown through the air after being shot...

As an added bonus, as far as environmental protection goes, clone and Imperial stormtrooper armor is known to actually serve as a full fledged extra-vehicular spacesuit, protecting the wearer from the temperature and radiation extremes of outer space, and can be equipped with oxygen tanks to operate for extended periods outside of an atmosphere.

In the final analysis, I'd say the Fed's padded armor stacks up comparably with the stormtroopers armor as far as how well they both work against energy weapons and concussive forces, namely, they don't... Neither one will save you from getting shot in the chest, and surviving an explosion is dicey. Fed armor, being flexible, offers improved comfort and mobility, a definite plus, but lacks a lot of the features and abilities of the troopers combo armor/spacesuit. Honestly, neither side's defensive equipment is going to save them from the other's weaponry. Ultimately, circumstances and deployment will have a greater effect on the battle than exactly how much energy goes into the armor and how much ends up in its unfortunate victim.

Do have another piece of evidence please watch video from from 6 minute 8 seconds to 6 minute and 10 seconds. Watch see first time starfleet officer get hit with that kind uniform he still stay up took two shoot before fell to ground.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrLg5bMxejo

Darth Spock wrote: Okay... Padding is a better armor than no armor... But I'm looking at whether it will stop an energy beam weapon. I still wouldn't let a stormie shoot at me if I were wearing it.
UFP pajamas probably are flame retardant, so are the young'uns versions on Earth, but that doesn't translate to "will reliably protect you from energy weapons or an open flame."

A blaster in Star Wars is a far less dangerous weapon then a phaser or disruptor as Clone and Storm Trooper armors actually do offer some protection from from blasters.

In Star Trek, you can wear metal full body armor that lets you walk through the neutronium mantle of a collapsed star(Voy: Prey), but that won't save you from a simple type 2 phaser. At best you have simply ensured they don't bother with the stun settings which isn't a good thing if you want to live.

I'm simply saying that Storm Trooper armor is useless in this case, but the standard Starfleet navel uniform will offer protection against blasters at least as good as the cumbersome armor used by Storm Troopers, and when you start taking the armor and equipment used by actual Starfleet ground troops things get very lopsided in Starfleets favor.

Darth Spock wrote: I believe this was already covered in an earlier thread anyway:
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=6611
http://tng.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x13/ ... hd_497.jpg
http://tng.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x13/ ... hd_498.jpg

I'm well aware of that thread, and i see no damage on Dr.Crusher's uniform despite it having been lit on fire. She certainly wasn't hurt.

This seems perfectly in keeping with an aerogel like material.

Darth Spock wrote: Same battle, most of the Bajorans don't go flying backwards after being shot by Klingons. Furthermore, the one that did, fell off a balcony, which greatly increased the visual effect of his being sent "flying." For that matter, we've seen clones sent flying from time to time in a very similar manner to what the Bajorans did in that battle.

While the disruptor blast in question is an out lier, it is not uncommon for phaser and disruptor blaster to throw the target back a few feet.

Darth Spock wrote: An arbitrary assumption, there's no way we can reliably conclude that a UFP soldier can survive a hand grenade at point blank range. If we make such assumptions regarding Fed padding based on such vague visual references, then equally relevant are the assertions that clone commando Gregor survived at the end of the SW:CW episode "Missing in Action," since we didn't actually see him die. Finally, we have this: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=6648&p=51044&hilit=paint+bomb#p51044
Lucky rightly points out the incongruity of the scene. I myself believe either the troopers seen getting up after the explosion were from another group nearby, but not with their face right on top of the bomb, or at the very least, this was a directional charge, forcing the brunt of the blast away. Either way, it's as good an example of trooper armor absorbing a concussive blast, an even better example, I think, than using the example of a UFP soldier not being thrown through the air after being shot...

Burke was laying down cover fire while the Klingons were trying to destroy a Hopper his unit was trying to evacuate in

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/File:Ja ... _Burke.jpg
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Hopper

Keep in mind that grenades in Star Trek can be kiloton nukes.

Darth Spock wrote: As an added bonus, as far as environmental protection goes, clone and Imperial stormtrooper armor is known to actually serve as a full fledged extra-vehicular spacesuit, protecting the wearer from the temperature and radiation extremes of outer space, and can be equipped with oxygen tanks to operate for extended periods outside of an atmosphere.

1) That isn't all that impressive all things considered. I'd honestly be more surprised if a clone or storm trooper armor didn't allow limited functionality in the vacuum of space.
http://mvl.mit.edu/research/eva/biosuit/biosuit-gallery
http://newsoffice.mit.edu/2014/second-s ... suits-0918

A nice little history of spacesuits.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_activity_suit

2) The fact that they don't protect against things like the Blue Shadow virus, and are shown to leave skin exposed are rather note worth.

Darth Spock wrote: In the final analysis, I'd say the Fed's padded armor stacks up comparably with the stormtroopers armor as far as how well they both work against energy weapons and concussive forces, namely, they don't... Neither one will save you from getting shot in the chest, and surviving an explosion is dicey. Fed armor, being flexible, offers improved comfort and mobility, a definite plus, but lacks a lot of the features and abilities of the troopers combo armor/spacesuit. Honestly, neither side's defensive equipment is going to save them from the other's weaponry. Ultimately, circumstances and deployment will have a greater effect on the battle than exactly how much energy goes into the armor and how much ends up in its unfortunate victim.

It's amusing that we are pitting sailors who's main job is to keep the ship working against soldiers who's job is to fight rather then soldiers against soldiers, and we can actually expect the sailor to have a reasonable chance of winning.

Well people like Burke kind more soldier then sail rest people were those uniforms. Other factor UFP soldier just using phaser but also hand grenades. When we saw Caption Janway powerful enough to spread entire deck. Single hand grenade more then enough blast take out 10 stromtroopers. Burke in fighting died because his wounds. Not in heat of battle he get wounded. His uniform look took pretty heavy beaten though died. With way wounds made like hit either disruptor fire.

Jasonb wrote:Do have another piece of evidence please watch video from from 6 minute 8 seconds to 6 minute and 10 seconds. Watch see first time starfleet officer get hit with that kind uniform he still stay up took two shoot before fell to ground.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrLg5bMxejo

Nice Soundtrack Dissonance. I do have a few problems with that video though. First, the shots are too close in succession to say the 1st one failed to bring him down, less than a second apart. Furthermore he reacts to being shot the 1st time, grimacing and hunching forward, just isn't "thrown." It's so dark it's hard to tell if he is actually wearing a trooper uniform, but it doesn't make much difference, I'll trust your eye's on that.

Next, at 6:26 in the same video, another guy wearing the standard uniform is shot twice in quick succession, once in abdomen, once higher up. It's not that dissimilar to the example referenced at 6:08, so Jem'Hadar plugging their victims twice is likely a common tactic, not proof of two shots being needed to drop a Federation trooper.

On top of all this, the weapon in question here is totally different from the Klingon disruptors referenced so far. It is a weapon noted for leaving anticoagulants in the wound, which cause long painful deaths to victims who aren't killed from the initial damage. When Nog took one such blast to the leg, the wound was far from superficial, even necessitating the legs amputation, but it didn't blow his leg off, even in standard pants with no shield.

Comparing likewise though, examples can be found in Star Wars that match the assertions made here. Storm troopers don't usually get the same heroic survivor treatment, but clone armor is likely quite similar.

First, before the arrival of the Clones on Geonosis, this scene shows either Padme's blast from a commandeered B1 battle droid's blaster, or the blast from a similar weapon deflected by a lightsaber, blasting the arm off of a B2 super battle droid. The actual "disarming" occurs at 9:56.
http://youtu.be/xmR1ee223zQ?t=9m52s

In The Clone Wars episode Rookies, Hevy takes at least three blaster hits to the torso, from the same model blaster as referenced above. He keeps right on fighting after the first hit, right about at the shoulder blade, seen at 1:03. He then appears to take three more hits to the back at 1:27, one to the lower back, another higher up that actually appears to be deflected away, and another to the middle of the back. Finally, at 1:32 we can see three clear scorch marks on the back of his armor, likely in addition to the first hit taken to the opposite side. After all this, he is still alive, and albeit with difficulty, manages to detonate the explosive he was protecting. Not bad by comparison. Video here:
http://youtu.be/toZKgF3pkYc

Lucky wrote: A blaster in Star Wars is a far less dangerous weapon then a phaser or disruptor as Clone and Storm Trooper armors actually do offer some protection from from blasters.

So, Star Wars armor being any good at all, only proves that blasters suck? I think thats stretching it a bit. Yes phaser vs blaster, the phaser wins, but a blaster is still a deadly weapon, and I haven't seen any good evidence that Starfleet sports armor capable of tanking it.

Lucky wrote:In Star Trek, you can wear metal full body armor that lets you walk through the neutronium mantle of a collapsed star(Voy: Prey), but that won't save you from a simple type 2 phaser. At best you have simply ensured they don't bother with the stun settings which isn't a good thing if you want to live.

I'll take that line literally the day I accept that the Enterprise D's entire power system is incapable of producing more than a terawatt of power, per TNG S2:E10 The Dauphin.

Lucky wrote:I'm simply saying that Storm Trooper armor is useless in this case,

Okay, we agree so far...

Lucky wrote:but the standard Starfleet navel uniform will offer protection against blasters at least as good as the cumbersome armor used by Storm Troopers, and when you start taking the armor and equipment used by actual Starfleet ground troops things get very lopsided in Starfleets favor.

Errr, no we don't agree. The special padded uniforms worn by Starfleet troopers may offer comparable protection to storm trooper armor, but absolutely nothing suggests that the standard crewman's duty uniform offers anything near combat level protection.

Lucky wrote:

Darth Spock wrote: I believe this was already covered in an earlier thread anyway:
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=6611
http://tng.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x13/ ... hd_497.jpg
http://tng.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x13/ ... hd_498.jpg

I'm well aware of that thread, and i see no damage on Dr.Crusher's uniform despite it having been lit on fire. She certainly wasn't hurt.

True, she is not badly hurt, but the scorching is there. Also, albeit much harder to see, is evidence that a hole was burned through her sleeve. The first picture shows some redness on her arm, which appears to be skin, and too red for healthy unburned skin at that. The second picture shows wrinkling and puckering not belonging on an intact sleeve, indicating a hole in the fabric. Just out of curiosity, what kind of monitor do you use? I remember the difference in how everything looked when I finally upgraded my ten year old 1284x1024 monitor to a brighter 1600x900.

Lucky wrote:This seems perfectly in keeping with an aerogel like material.

Impressive stuff that, but I understand it doesn't perform so well under compression, making it limited in usefulness in clothing, it also won't stop a laser, and I have never heard or seen any indication that Starfleet personnel are fireproof.

Lucky wrote:

Darth Spock wrote: Same battle, most of the Bajorans don't go flying backwards after being shot by Klingons. Furthermore, the one that did, fell off a balcony, which greatly increased the visual effect of his being sent "flying." For that matter, we've seen clones sent flying from time to time in a very similar manner to what the Bajorans did in that battle.

While the disruptor blast in question is an out lier, it is not uncommon for phaser and disruptor blaster to throw the target back a few feet.

True, I might throw this side note in though while he has come up again, that unarmored Bajoran was still alive even after that blast, as you can hear his pained exclaiming for the duration of his fall....

Lucky wrote:

Darth Spock wrote: An arbitrary assumption, there's no way we can reliably conclude that a UFP soldier can survive a hand grenade at point blank range. If we make such assumptions regarding Fed padding based on such vague visual references, then equally relevant are the assertions that clone commando Gregor survived at the end of the SW:CW episode "Missing in Action," since we didn't actually see him die. Finally, we have this: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=6648&p=51044&hilit=paint+bomb#p51044
Lucky rightly points out the incongruity of the scene. I myself believe either the troopers seen getting up after the explosion were from another group nearby, but not with their face right on top of the bomb, or at the very least, this was a directional charge, forcing the brunt of the blast away. Either way, it's as good an example of trooper armor absorbing a concussive blast, an even better example, I think, than using the example of a UFP soldier not being thrown through the air after being shot...

Burke was laying down cover fire while the Klingons were trying to destroy a Hopper his unit was trying to evacuate in

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/File:Ja ... _Burke.jpg
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Hopper

Keep in mind that grenades in Star Trek can be kiloton nukes.

Jasonb wrote:Well people like Burke kind more soldier then sail rest people were those uniforms. Other factor UFP soldier just using phaser but also hand grenades. When we saw Caption Janway powerful enough to spread entire deck. Single hand grenade more then enough blast take out 10 stromtroopers. Burke in fighting died because his wounds. Not in heat of battle he get wounded. His uniform look took pretty heavy beaten though died. With way wounds made like hit either disruptor fire.

Unless Burke tossed his battered helmet, gloves and extra pair of armored pants, I'm gonna guess a big bomb didn't go off in his face, but rather that he was shot or hacked at with a bat'leth. As for UFP grenades, I believe I already mentioned the remote possibility of storm troopers using their explosives. Neither side seems to use them, but the storm troopers versions are far more plentiful, guaranteed one per trooper.

Lucky wrote:

Darth Spock wrote: As an added bonus, as far as environmental protection goes, clone and Imperial stormtrooper armor is known to actually serve as a full fledged extra-vehicular spacesuit, protecting the wearer from the temperature and radiation extremes of outer space, and can be equipped with oxygen tanks to operate for extended periods outside of an atmosphere.

1) That isn't all that impressive all things considered. I'd honestly be more surprised if a clone or storm trooper armor didn't allow limited functionality in the vacuum of space.
http://mvl.mit.edu/research/eva/biosuit/biosuit-gallery
http://newsoffice.mit.edu/2014/second-s ... suits-0918

A nice little history of spacesuits.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_activity_suit

2) The fact that they don't protect against things like the Blue Shadow virus, and are shown to leave skin exposed are rather note worth.

Quite true, that was actually my unneeded and belated retort to this:

Lucky wrote:Star Fleet uniforms are fireproof as Lore proved, and help protect against extreme cold.

Lucky wrote:

Darth Spock wrote: In the final analysis, I'd say the Fed's padded armor stacks up comparably with the stormtroopers armor as far as how well they both work against energy weapons and concussive forces, namely, they don't... Neither one will save you from getting shot in the chest, and surviving an explosion is dicey. Fed armor, being flexible, offers improved comfort and mobility, a definite plus, but lacks a lot of the features and abilities of the troopers combo armor/spacesuit. Honestly, neither side's defensive equipment is going to save them from the other's weaponry. Ultimately, circumstances and deployment will have a greater effect on the battle than exactly how much energy goes into the armor and how much ends up in its unfortunate victim.

It's amusing that we are pitting sailors who's main job is to keep the ship working against soldiers who's job is to fight rather then soldiers against soldiers, and we can actually expect the sailor to have a reasonable chance of winning.

Except we aren't. We are pitting Starfleet soldiers, like Burke, against Imperial troops. Starfleet does have a reasonable chance of winning, but their armor isn't going to be what does it. Their phasers are far more impressive than blasters, but they really offer little advantage under the circumstances set forth. Dead is dead, whether the enemy is lying there or "vaporized."

Tell me, who would win, if you take two parties, both equipped with type 2A body armor, the first group uses M 16's with 5.56×45mm NATO M995 armor piercing rounds,
the other with an AR-57 firing FN 5.7×28mm. The 5.56×45mm NATO M995 is a far more powerful bullet than the FN 5.7×28mm, but both are capable of penetrating type 2A body armor, and both are deadly. So who wins? Whoever deploys their troops better.

I'm simply going with the scenario put forth: 10 UFP foot soldiers against 10 storm troopers. Now, if you want to change it, make it 20 UFP soldiers against, say, 10 storm troopers and a couple of AT-ST's, I'd vote for the Fed's. No guarantee, but I doubt the chicken walker's armor is strong enough to tank phasers on max. Maybe it would take a few shots, or a few seconds of sustained fire, but I'd bet those basic weapons already have all the anti vehicle firepower they need built in. The scenario of 10 foot soldiers against 10 troopers just doesn't play to the stronger points of the Fed's arsenal.

Darth Spock wrote:

Lucky wrote:In Star Trek, you can wear metal full body armor that lets you walk through the neutronium mantle of a collapsed star(Voy: Prey), but that won't save you from a simple type 2 phaser. At best you have simply ensured they don't bother with the stun settings which isn't a good thing if you want to live.

I'll take that line literally the day I accept that the Enterprise D's entire power system is incapable of producing more than a terawatt of power, per TNG S2:E10 The Dauphin.

In retrospect, it occurs to me that my dismissive response regarding the Hirogen armor may come off as concessive avoidance. Allow me to clarify why I do not consider that example relevant to our present discussion.

-1. Even if we ignore the logical problems, and blindly assume that this suit lets the Alpha stroll around on a collapsed star, it's not Federation technology. It's the special suit of an alien race from the Delta quadrant about which little is known. It does not reflect the defenses normally employed by the Federation or any of the other major Alpha or Beta quadrant powers.

-2. Looking at the the implications of that brief statement, the Hirogen's body armor rivals the defensive capabilities of a Federation Starship. That doesn't jive with the rest the technological comparisons. Even if the Hirogens are technological and physical super beings, thats pushing it a bit. Hand phasers don't shred starship hulls.

-3. -A. Scientifically, I can't wrap my head around what type of collapsed star would have a neutronium mantle. In neutron stars, neutronium, specifically neutron-degenerate matter, comprises the core, maintained by the intense gravity. Any form of "mantle," in the traditional sense of the word, would not be comprised of actual neutronium in the sense implied here. On top of this, the surface temperatures of neutron stars, even a white dwarf, are hot enough to not only melt, but vaporize silicon. So much for tracking a silicon-based life form on one, unless the prey too was sporting a super suit.

-B. Assuming it is some alternate version of an exotic, dead star, it may be one that has cooled and is no longer emitting such extreme radiation. Such circumstances better fit the dialogue in the episode "Prey," considering the statement was prompted by Chakotay's questioning if the Hirogen's armor could withstand rapid pressure fluctuations. To be comprised of neutronium, the extreme gravity this suit must endure is still a little hard to swallow but, even if this is the case, and the suit truly allows him to overcome such gravity and pressure extremes, it still has no bearing on the claims made here. Since phasers, and blasters, appear to utilize thermal and particle radiation, not gravity.

To summarize, I find the likelihood of the Hirogen literally walking around through the caverns of a collapsed star hard to accept. A number of unknown circumstances could be in play here, we only have a brief statement made by proud hunter. I find the assertions a bit contradictory to the rest of Star Treks typical technological capabilities, at least in the Alpha quadrant. Under those circumstances, a Hirogen with a jet pack could defeat a Federation shuttle in battle. Given the resilience of the Hirogen ships to Voyager's weapons later on, then perhaps we are supposed to believe that Hirogen body armor really is that awesome, but even if we do, it is still not Federation armor, and shows a definite disparity between the two cultures defensive technologies. That a hand phaser manages to defeat his armor is indeed impressive, assuming it is truly that resilient, but as there is already little doubt as to a phasers ability to defeat storm trooper armor, the whole point becomes moot.
To use that vague and isolated incident as an example of what the Federation should be viewed as capable of, is as reasonable sifting through one of the many extreme low end examples there are to chose from. I hope that clarifies my response.

Darth Spock wrote: So, Star Wars armor being any good at all, only proves that blasters suck? I think thats stretching it a bit. Yes phaser vs blaster, the phaser wins, but a blaster is still a deadly weapon, and I haven't seen any good evidence that Starfleet sports armor capable of tanking it.

Suck is a relative thing, the armors worn by Storm and Clone Troopers suck against arrows and spears in universe for example, they go right through it. The armors are designed to ablate and thereby cause the bolt to explode before reaching the wearer, but this isn't going to work well against a phaser which fires a beam that casually holes a humanoid.

It would be rather easy for the UFP to issue armor with plates in it as this is seen in the orbital skydiving suits.
Orbital Skydiving Suit(Voyager Extreme Risk)
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Orbital Skydiving Suit (Sulu Star Trek 2009)
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Darth Spock wrote: I'll take that line literally the day I accept that the Enterprise D's entire power system is incapable of producing more than a terawatt of power, per TNG S2:E10 The Dauphin.

Why Riker's statement about the output of the Enterprise-D's communication system in "The Dauphin" is perfectly in line with other statements concerning communications systems. The quote only stops making sense when you take it out of context.

What the armor is described doing in "Prey" is more a matter of miniaturizing various systems we commonly see in Star Trek then material strength, but that said, the plate would be made from something like centimeter thick tritanium or duranium which would laugh off blaster riffles.

Darth Spock wrote: Errr, no we don't agree. The special padded uniforms worn by Starfleet troopers may offer comparable protection to storm trooper armor, but absolutely nothing suggests that the standard crewman's duty uniform offers anything near combat level protection.

The title of the thread states 10 UFP Foot Soldiers, and that means armor, personal shields, type-3 phasers, photon grenades and tricorders, and that isn't scratching the special gear that they have like stealth suits.

So you want to withhold standard gear from Starfleet soldiers, and even throw the guys who aren't war fighters into the fray despite it not being their job? Even the sailors in Starfleet get light armor as standard. It doesn't make sense to force one side to be naked while the other gets armor.

Let's be fair since you refuse to use Starfleet ground/combat units against their Star Wars counter parts, we should use Imperial starship crews and vehicle pilots:
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Why are you arguing for Storm Troopers getting specially armored uniforms? The Imperial Naval uniforms and the uniforms issued to pilots aren't armored so why give the Storm Troopers special armor, because the SPECIAL gear is standard for them just like personal shield, type-3 phasers, armored uniforms, photon grenades, etc are standard for UFP soldiers.

This is basically what the OP states rthe Storm Troopers are facing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-_lrf44Gw0

Darth Spock wrote: True, she is not badly hurt, but the scorching is there. Also, albeit much harder to see, is evidence that a hole was burned through her sleeve. The first picture shows some redness on her arm, which appears to be skin, and too red for healthy unburned skin at that. The second picture shows wrinkling and puckering not belonging on an intact sleeve, indicating a hole in the fabric. Just out of curiosity, what kind of monitor do you use? I remember the difference in how everything looked when I finally upgraded my ten year old 1284x1024 monitor to a brighter 1600x900.

The fire was roughly on Dr.Crusher's elbow, and the discoloration that people seem to think is a burn is nearly on Dr.Crusher's shoulder.
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Darth Spock wrote: Impressive stuff that, but I understand it doesn't perform so well under compression, making it limited in usefulness in clothing, it also won't stop a laser, and I have never heard or seen any indication that Starfleet personnel are fireproof.

1) I said "like" for this reason, but real world aerogel isn't that far off.
https://technology.grc.nasa.gov/feature ... ogels.shtm
http://www.gizmag.com/polymer-aerogel-s ... asa/23955/

2) Blasters aren't L.A.S.E.R.s. They are more akin to bubbles that contain something like plasma, and when the bubble bursts the energy is released. Storm and Clone Trooper armor works by causing the bubble to burst before it gets too close to the person.

3) When was the last time you saw a Starfleet uniform lit on fire? What we normal see is Starfleet personnel suffering from something more akin to electrical shocks or burns to uncovered areas such as head or hands..

Darth Spock wrote: True, I might throw this side note in though while he has come up again, that unarmored Bajoran was still alive even after that blast, as you can hear his pained exclaiming for the duration of his fall....

I'd have to disagree with you there, or are you going to also claim Storm troopers lack armor? Just because it is soft does not make it a Bajoran uniform any less armored.

The over shirt is rather thick
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The undershirt is rather thin
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The uniforms worn by Starfleet naval personnel are similarly designed with the foot-soldiers having even more armor and even plate at times.
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Darth Spock wrote: Unless Burke tossed his battered helmet, gloves and extra pair of armored pants, I'm gonna guess a big bomb didn't go off in his face, but rather that he was shot or hacked at with a bat'leth. As for UFP grenades, I believe I already mentioned the remote possibility of storm troopers using their explosives. Neither side seems to use them, but the storm troopers versions are far more plentiful, guaranteed one per trooper.

1) He was laying down cover fire while the Klingons were trying to take down the hopper.

2) The damage doesn't look right for a blade to me.
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3) Since when do Storm Troopers have grenades? If they had grenades as standard we would have seen them at Endor, and lots of Ewoks would have died.

4) Armored pants aren't all that common in the real world. Most are trained to shoot center of mass as that's the largest target and where most of the vitals are.

Darth Spock wrote: Except we aren't. We are pitting Starfleet soldiers, like Burke, against Imperial troops. Starfleet does have a reasonable chance of winning, but their armor isn't going to be what does it. Their phasers are far more impressive than blasters, but they really offer little advantage under the circumstances set forth. Dead is dead, whether the enemy is lying there or "vaporized."

Tell me, who would win, if you take two parties, both equipped with type 2A body armor, the first group uses M 16's with 5.56×45mm NATO M995 armor piercing rounds,
the other with an AR-57 firing FN 5.7×28mm. The 5.56×45mm NATO M995 is a far more powerful bullet than the FN 5.7×28mm, but both are capable of penetrating type 2A body armor, and both are deadly. So who wins? Whoever deploys their troops better.

I'm simply going with the scenario put forth: 10 UFP foot soldiers against 10 storm troopers. Now, if you want to change it, make it 20 UFP soldiers against, say, 10 storm troopers and a couple of AT-ST's, I'd vote for the Fed's. No guarantee, but I doubt the chicken walker's armor is strong enough to tank phasers on max. Maybe it would take a few shots, or a few seconds of sustained fire, but I'd bet those basic weapons already have all the anti vehicle firepower they need built in. The scenario of 10 foot soldiers against 10 troopers just doesn't play to the stronger points of the Fed's arsenal.

The thread specifies UFP foot soldiers who are usually shown wearing armor and generally dressing in different uniforms then their sailor counterparts the shows and movies focus on.

Darth Spock wrote: -1. Even if we ignore the logical problems, and blindly assume that this suit lets the Alpha stroll around on a collapsed star, it's not Federation technology. It's the special suit of an alien race from the Delta quadrant about which little is known. It does not reflect the defenses normally employed by the Federation or any of the other major Alpha or Beta quadrant powers.

Hirogen armor is technology that Federation technology can defeat, and is made of better stuff then any clone or storm trooper's armor was ever made from.

Conversely, we often see blasters defeated by metal plates.

Darth Spock wrote: -2. Looking at the the implications of that brief statement, the Hirogen's body armor rivals the defensive capabilities of a Federation Starship. That doesn't jive with the rest the technological comparisons. Even if the Hirogens are technological and physical super beings, thats pushing it a bit. Hand phasers don't shred starship hulls.

Shielding isn't exactly as well defined as you seem to be making it out to be, and Hirogen are sportsmen so they may purposefully turn off systems to enhance the thrill of the hunt.

We know that special metaphasic shields are used by the Federation shuttles and capital ships to enter super-dense corona, but while the shielding is effective in both cases, there is no reason to assume the shuttle's shields are as powerful as the Enterprise-D's shields.

Darth Spock wrote: -3. -A. Scientifically, I can't wrap my head around what type of collapsed star would have a neutronium mantle. In neutron stars, neutronium, specifically neutron-degenerate matter, comprises the core, maintained by the intense gravity. Any form of "mantle," in the traditional sense of the word, would not be comprised of actual neutronium in the sense implied here. On top of this, the surface temperatures of neutron stars, even a white dwarf, are hot enough to not only melt, but vaporize silicon. So much for tracking a silicon-based life form on one, unless the prey too was sporting a super suit.

-B. Assuming it is some alternate version of an exotic, dead star, it may be one that has cooled and is no longer emitting such extreme radiation. Such circumstances better fit the dialogue in the episode "Prey," considering the statement was prompted by Chakotay's questioning if the Hirogen's armor could withstand rapid pressure fluctuations. To be comprised of neutronium, the extreme gravity this suit must endure is still a little hard to swallow but, even if this is the case, and the suit truly allows him to overcome such gravity and pressure extremes, it still has no bearing on the claims made here. Since phasers, and blasters, appear to utilize thermal and particle radiation, not gravity.

This is actually real world physics at work. Much like the Earth, neutron stars have layers that differ in composition. It would appea rthat the surface of a neutron star is composed of iron for example.
http://www.astro.umd.edu/~miller/nstar.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutron_star

It's really more a matter of miniaturizing technologies the Federation is shown to have rather then coming up with systems that are alien to the UFP.

Darth Spock wrote: To summarize, I find the likelihood of the Hirogen literally walking around through the caverns of a collapsed star hard to accept. A number of unknown circumstances could be in play here, we only have a brief statement made by proud hunter. I find the assertions a bit contradictory to the rest of Star Treks typical technological capabilities, at least in the Alpha quadrant. Under those circumstances, a Hirogen with a jet pack could defeat a Federation shuttle in battle. Given the resilience of the Hirogen ships to Voyager's weapons later on, then perhaps we are supposed to believe that Hirogen body armor really is that awesome, but even if we do, it is still not Federation armor, and shows a definite disparity between the two cultures defensive technologies. That a hand phaser manages to defeat his armor is indeed impressive, assuming it is truly that resilient, but as there is already little doubt as to a phasers ability to defeat storm trooper armor, the whole point becomes moot.
To use that vague and isolated incident as an example of what the Federation should be viewed as capable of, is as reasonable sifting through one of the many extreme low end examples there are to chose from. I hope that clarifies my response.

A millimeter of something like Star Trek Duranium or Tritanium showed be more then enough to stop a blaster, but it really won't help against a phaser.