10 UFP foot soldier verse 10 Stromtrooper

[Darth Spock]

So, Star Wars armor being any good at all, only proves that blasters suck? I think thats stretching it a bit. Yes phaser vs blaster, the phaser wins, but a blaster is still a deadly weapon, and I haven't seen any good evidence that Starfleet sports armor capable of tanking it.

Suck is a relative thing, the armors worn by Storm and Clone Troopers suck against arrows and spears in universe for example, they go right through it. The armors are designed to ablate and thereby cause the bolt to explode before reaching the wearer, but this isn't going to work well against a phaser which fires a beam that casually holes a humanoid.

It would be rather easy for the UFP to issue armor with plates in it as this is seen in the orbital skydiving suits.
Orbital Skydiving Suit(Voyager Extreme Risk)
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Orbital Skydiving Suit (Sulu Star Trek 2009)
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Yes, suck is a relative thing, as the padding worn by UFP troopers similarly sucks against knives. There is little doubt as to a phaser's effectiveness against storm troopers, but that has no bearing on the effectiveness of Starfleet armor. That you say "It would be rather easy for the UFP to issue armor with plates" indicates that you realize the standard UFP soldier's padded armor won't adequately defend against blasters.
Remember, the scenario is 10 standard UFP foot soldiers against 10 standard Imperial storm troopers. As for how easy it would be for the Federation to add extra defenses beyond what is standard, they never seem to have personal shields or armor inserts for away teams in hazardous situations, even when they expect to encounter hostile forces with inferior weapons, where such precautions could very well make the difference between life and death. Whether Starfleet would/could implement better armor in the long run is beyond the scope of this thread, besides, we can hardly expect the Empire would be sitting around idly while the Federation alone ramps up military R&D.

Errr, no we don't agree. The special padded uniforms worn by Starfleet troopers may offer comparable protection to storm trooper armor, but absolutely nothing suggests that the standard crewman's duty uniform offers anything near combat level protection.

The title of the thread states 10 UFP Foot Soldiers, and that means armor, personal shields, type-3 phasers, photon grenades and tricorders, and that isn't scratching the special gear that they have like stealth suits.

So you want to withhold standard gear from Starfleet soldiers, and even throw the guys who aren't war fighters into the fray despite it not being their job? Even the sailors in Starfleet get light armor as standard. It doesn't make sense to force one side to be naked while the other gets armor.

The thread specifies UFP foot soldiers who are usually shown wearing armor and generally dressing in different uniforms then their sailor counterparts the shows and movies focus on.

Easy now, I'm not the fellow who got cocky and brought the "sailors" in to this:

SNIP....

I'm simply saying that Storm Trooper armor is useless in this case, but the standard Starfleet navel uniform will offer protection against blasters at least as good as the cumbersome armor used by Storm Troopers, and when you start taking the armor and equipment used by actual Starfleet ground troops things get very lopsided in Starfleets favor.

SNIP

It's amusing that we are pitting sailors who's main job is to keep the ship working against soldiers who's job is to fight rather then soldiers against soldiers, and we can actually expect the sailor to have a reasonable chance of winning.

Don't blame me!

Let's be fair since you refuse to use Starfleet ground/combat units against their Star Wars counter parts, we should use Imperial starship crews and vehicle pilots:
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Why are you arguing for Storm Troopers getting specially armored uniforms? The Imperial Naval uniforms and the uniforms issued to pilots aren't armored so why give the Storm Troopers special armor, because the SPECIAL gear is standard for them just like personal shield, type-3 phasers, armored uniforms, photon grenades, etc are standard for UFP soldiers.

Mmhmm, starship officers and crew:
Federation bridge crew, no apparent weapons or armor.
Imperial bridge crew, no apparent weapons or armor.

Starship security:
Federation: Well armed, no apparent armor.
Fed: FREEZE!
Empire: Lightly armed, minimal armor.
Imp: Don't move!

Foot soldiers:
UFP trooper, about to engage.
UFP trooper, behind cover.
Storm troopers, about to engage.
Storm troopers, behind cover.


As for what all toys they should have at their disposal, I confess I typically think only of the most basic trooper as typically depicted in shootouts. A gun, light armor, and whatever they typically carry on their person. In the UFP trooper's case, we know this includes medical hypospray. Whatever else they have in various pouches or pockets is anyone’s guess, extra ammo is likely, but the pockets in that uniform don't look all that large or plentiful, and they don't want too much stuff hanging off of a person in a firefight. Storm troopers we know carry an explosive, probably a grappling hook, and whatever else is part of the suit, hard to say beyond extra blaster packs.
Now, as I said, I originally imagined a simple, battle ready trooper like typically seen on screen, but I can see that whatever squad based equipment would be commonly found with a ten soldier squad or patrol, is appropriate for inclusion. The trouble is we don't know what all that would include. The combat actually shown in both franchises is typically limited to simple gunfire. Photon grenades are a possibility, but the idea of them actually being used seems as likely as seeing the Imperials use their explosives. How many are even likely to be deployed for a "standard" 10 soldier group? I see no obvious place for them to be carried at the ready on the UFP trooper's uniform. Personal shields are more problematic than photon grenades. While they have been mentioned, the fact that we have never seen one leads me to think they are either very uncommon, or of limited practicality. It is reasonable that the troops on Ajilon Prime would not be carrying grenades while guarding a field hospital, and the troops on AR-558 may have used all of their grenades in the 5 months prior to our introduction to them. But that none of these soldiers had shields is not so easily explained away. The 2 troops killed in the cave in "Nor to Battle the Strong" appeared fresh and intact, they should have had and used their shields, if it was part of their standard equipment. The example on AR-558 is no better. If indeed they started with shields, that would indicate that off-screen, every, single, trooper had been shot at least once, and used up all their shielding. To top it off, when new supplies were brought in, no one thought to bring more shields or power packs for shields. Instead, everyone keeps on fighting in the usual manner, with no shields, and with apparently the same combat effectiveness. Honestly, personal force fields sound more like the stuff of elite special forces.

As for tricorders, I rather doubt every UFP trooper is going to carry one, it's unnecessary baggage in combat. Of course, for what it may be worth in a battle, I'm sure you're right, there is bound to be at least one tricorder or similar device in the group. But, the Imperials also use peripheral equipment appropriate to the circumstances.

Storm trooper with scanner.
Fully equipped trooper on mission, using "binoculars."
Trooper deployment, on checkpoint duty, armed with a variety of weapons, and whatever is in the packs.

Assuming a more complicated engagement than simply two groups of 10 soldiers having a chance skirmish, whatever mystery goodies the UFP troops may get, obviously a fully equipped Imperial detachment isn't going to go planetside naked either.

This is basically what the OP states rthe Storm Troopers are facing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-_lrf44Gw0

Ah yes, MACO, the better equipped, non-Starfleet military organization from 200 hundred years prior to TNG. Well, regardless of what they're called, I'm sure they have been integrated into Starfleet by now, or at least Starfleet should have their own equivalent. But, here we are going beyond just "grunts with guns" ground forces, your talking about something more in line with trope worthy "space marines" or commandos. A more appropriate comparison here would be the similarly unseen Imperial equivalent to ARC troopers. The video referenced shows a small group of experienced troops executing an ambush/rescue mission. I'm not saying there are no experienced, highly competent soldiers in the Federation in the 24th century, but like the soldier who shot himself in the foot to avoid combat in "Nor to Battle the Strong," not every trooper is instantly transformed into a brutal, efficient, killing machine simply by putting on a padded uniform.
Beyond that, you've only demonstrated the exact point I was trying to make earlier about tactics and deployment. The troops in the video you linked didn't use any weapons or armor radically different than their Starfleet counterparts, it was training and tactics that made the difference. I might also point out that the linked video only shows the MACO taking on a private security force overseeing slave labor on an unhealthy mining world. I would be extremely disappointed if they hadn't completely dominated the situation.
The closest we've seen to "special forces" in the later shows was mostly limited to the equipment used in the "Chain of Command" episodes of TNG. Even they did not have personal shields, although the portable emplacement was close. Also note the rubbery suit worn by Picard. It looks a lot like the inner layers of Burke's uniform, only thinner. Given the nature of the mission, that material may actually be for stealth, minimizing the wearer’s visibility to sensors. Or perhaps it is just a very light armor.

I'm all for the existence of elite Federation troops, decked out with shields, jet boots, the works, but such forces are going to be rare. Of course if we ramp up to elite Starfleet forces as ought to exist, it's only fair to pit them against their Imperial equivalent.

True, she is not badly hurt, but the scorching is there. Also, albeit much harder to see, is evidence that a hole was burned through her sleeve. The first picture shows some redness on her arm, which appears to be skin, and too red for healthy unburned skin at that. The second picture shows wrinkling and puckering not belonging on an intact sleeve, indicating a hole in the fabric. Just out of curiosity, what kind of monitor do you use? I remember the difference in how everything looked when I finally upgraded my ten year old 1284x1024 monitor to a brighter 1600x900.

The fire was roughly on Dr.Crusher's elbow, and the discoloration that people seem to think is a burn is nearly on Dr.Crusher's shoulder.
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It's a very fast moving scene, though the fire does appear a tad lower than the burn mark. I'd say the effects department missed lining things up by a few centimeters. It's very apparent to me that her uniform has been damaged. Aside from what I already said about perhaps trying to view the screen caps on a higher resolution monitor, I don't know what to say. The damage, however minor, is nonetheless present on her uniform.

Impressive stuff that, but I understand it doesn't perform so well under compression, making it limited in usefulness in clothing, it also won't stop a laser, and I have never heard or seen any indication that Starfleet personnel are fireproof.

1) I said "like" for this reason, but real world aerogel isn't that far off.
https://technology.grc.nasa.gov/feature ... ogels.shtm
http://www.gizmag.com/polymer-aerogel-s ... asa/23955/

2) Blasters aren't L.A.S.E.R.s. They are more akin to bubbles that contain something like plasma, and when the bubble bursts the energy is released. Storm and Clone Trooper armor works by causing the bubble to burst before it gets too close to the person.

3) When was the last time you saw a Starfleet uniform lit on fire? What we normal see is Starfleet personnel suffering from something more akin to electrical shocks or burns to uncovered areas such as head or hands..

1) Okay, but I still haven't seen a Starfleet uniform offer significant protection from anything specific, certainly nothing that justifies calling it armor.

2) Sounds good, but I wouldn't want to make a long string of theories based on that hypothesis. We really don't know that much about how blasters actually work, certainly not enough to make further assertions as to how exactly they react with the white mystery armor, or other materials.

3) When was the last time you saw a Starfleet uniform exposed to fire? Electrical shocks and burns will always be most visible on exposed flesh, and don't just instantly set people's clothes on fire.

True, I might throw this side note in though while he has come up again, that unarmored Bajoran was still alive even after that blast, as you can hear his pained exclaiming for the duration of his fall....

I'd have to disagree with you there, or are you going to also claim Storm troopers lack armor? Just because it is soft does not make it a Bajoran uniform any less armored.

My statement here was actually in response to a comment by Jasonb who originally offered that the Bajorans in the "Way of the Warrior" battle lacked armor, and that being thrown backwards demonstrated inferior protection to Starfleet soldiers' armor since they weren't thrown back. At this point in the discussion I only succeeded in confusing the matter, I should have let it go. Here is the original statement I was referring to:

That interest point Klingon disruptor blast sent a Bajoran flying backwards after he get hit. Even saw something like to in Star Trek Search for Spock on that BOP that Kinglon Caption kill officer destroy science ship. He also want little bit flying as well.

Fact padding armor prevent the UFP soldier flying backwards it means also prevent good among energy from effect UFP soldier not enough prevent the UFP soldier at minimal knock out or killed. If the UFP soldiers fire fight kill or knock out is guess work. Padd armor at minimal prevent kind close range explosive type of death.

Means that UFP soldier padd armor be minimal enough protect hand grenade type shock-wave easily. I hardly call stromtrooper blast storng enough deliver anywere near that level strong hit target. Look padd armor must likley protect UFP soldier getting kill battle.

The over shirt is rather thick
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The undershirt is rather thin
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The uniforms worn by Starfleet naval personnel are similarly designed with the foot-soldiers having even more armor and even plate at times.
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Of course, I do still disagree that the standard "sailor" uniform of Starfleet or Bajor is actually armored. Really, why would it be? This is the Federation, not the Terran Empire. The ground troops have the thick, rubbery padding, but there is zero indication that normal Starfleet personnel wear anything but a durable, well-made duty uniform, not intended to endure weapons of any type.

Unless Burke tossed his battered helmet, gloves and extra pair of armored pants, I'm gonna guess a big bomb didn't go off in his face, but rather that he was shot or hacked at with a bat'leth. As for UFP grenades, I believe I already mentioned the remote possibility of storm troopers using their explosives. Neither side seems to use them, but the storm troopers versions are far more plentiful, guaranteed one per trooper.

1) He was laying down cover fire while the Klingons were trying to take down the hopper.

2) The damage doesn't look right for a blade to me.
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3) Since when do Storm Troopers have grenades? If they had grenades as standard we would have seen them at Endor, and lots of Ewoks would have died.

4) Armored pants aren't all that common in the real world. Most are trained to shoot center of mass as that's the largest target and where most of the vitals are.

1) And? If they were shooting for the hopper, that doesn't explain anything. If some were shooting at him that would hardly be surprising. If the Idea is that they were launching heavy weapons at the hopper, and he caught the fallout, that still explains nothing. More likely than not, they were using something along the same lines as the mortars encountered by Jake and Bashir. Example:
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Even if you insist that Starfleet doctors are armored, Jake was in civilian garb, and a few meters was more than enough of a buffer to prevent a grisly fate. Burke was most likely shot with a disruptor, although it's also possible some debris flew off the hopper and struck him.

2) Hmm, probably not. Actually, it looks rather like he got shot.

3) Canon reliability aside, the cylinder on the back of storm trooper armor has long been referenced as an explosive:
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Baradium ... _detonator
The Clone Wars brings its explosive status to a near certainty. Here we see R2 retrieving the device from a fallen clone:
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Here is a clip of its subsequent use:
http://youtu.be/Eg2C9K4b0hQ?t=2m31s
We also see the whole belt used as a demolition charge by clone traitor Slick in SW:CW S1:E16 "Hidden Enemy." This is the best reference I could find: http://cdnvideo.dolimg.com/cdn_assets/c ... 6c05ca.jpg
Such charges were used to destroy the bulk of the Republic's heavy equipment, including the parked AT-TE's. All of this of course, only references a standard part of the uniform. Several examples of extra, mission specific spherical grenades, and hemispherical explosives were also frequently seen during the Clone Wars. Devices such as those of course, may or may not be available to an average 10 trooper squad.

4) Precisely. Burke's fatal wound was limited to his torso area. Since he obviously didn't have a helmet, gloves, or "armored pants," the earlier claims that his injuries were the result of proximity to a massive explosion are debunked, the implication of a personal shield with them. Again, here is the point I was addressing:

Burke was laying down cover fire while the Klingons were trying to destroy a Hopper his unit was trying to evacuate in

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/File:Ja ... _Burke.jpg
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Hopper

Keep in mind that grenades in Star Trek can be kiloton nukes.

Response continued ----------------->

[Darth Spock]

My response started above grew large and unwieldy, it is continued here:

I'll take that line literally the day I accept that the Enterprise D's entire power system is incapable of producing more than a terawatt of power, per TNG S2:E10 The Dauphin.

Why Riker's statement about the output of the Enterprise-D's communication system in "The Dauphin" is perfectly in line with other statements concerning communications systems. The quote only stops making sense when you take it out of context.

Thank you for making my point. In the episode I referenced, Riker very clearly says "That's more power than our entire ship can generate. " With a mere drop of common sense, and some additional references, we are able to reasonably conclude that it is the communication system, not the whole ship, as the statement would otherwise imply by itself. Similarly, here we have one vague sentence from a prideful hunter which implies man-sized defensive technology to rival a Federation starship, whether or not it makes sense or agrees with other canon information. To take that implication to its extreme, then take the fact that the Hirogen was vulnerable to a phaser rifle so as to jump to the conclusion that the Federation must also possess armor of this quality, since they are capable of defeating it, and that their weapons must be more intense than the environment found in a collapsed star, is ludicrous. That would be circular reasoning, based upon an assumption, based upon the implications of a particular interpretation of a single dubious statement, the conclusion of which flies contrary to other references.

-2. Looking at the the implications of that brief statement, the Hirogen's body armor rivals the defensive capabilities of a Federation Starship. That doesn't jive with the rest the technological comparisons. Even if the Hirogens are technological and physical super beings, thats pushing it a bit. Hand phasers don't shred starship hulls.

Shielding isn't exactly as well defined as you seem to be making it out to be, and Hirogen are sportsmen so they may purposefully turn off systems to enhance the thrill of the hunt.

We know that special metaphasic shields are used by the Federation shuttles and capital ships to enter super-dense corona, but while the shielding is effective in both cases, there is no reason to assume the shuttle's shields are as powerful as the Enterprise-D's shields.

It's really more a matter of miniaturizing technologies the Federation is shown to have rather then coming up with systems that are alien to the UFP.

What the armor is described doing in "Prey" is more a matter of miniaturizing various systems we commonly see in Star Trek then material strength, but that said, the plate would be made from something like centimeter thick tritanium or duranium which would laugh off blaster riffles.

Thank you again for clearly stating the points I was trying to emphasize. One point being that even if we accept the Hirogen's impressive sounding claim at face value, such technologies providing protection from environmental hazards do not automatically translate into equivalent, across-the-board military defenses. As far as the "metaphasic shield" is concerned, calling it a shield gives it certain connotative attributes, but as you said, that it enabled entry into a star's corona for both a shuttle and the Enterprise E does not make the two vessel's military defenses equal. Recall too, that when the Enterprise used this device to flee the Borg ship in "Descent, part 2" they were already dangerously close to the star before engaging it. That they waited until the last possible moment and never even considered trying it against the Borg ship indicates that it would have little to no effect against conventional weapon fire.
Of course we don't know if metaphasic shielding is what is behind the Hirogen's suit, but as you yourself pointed out, such technologies do not directly reflect resistance to weapons. On top of that, the Hirogen's suit, again as you pointed out, does not represent the capabilities of the Federation suits. Even if we assume that the technology employed is not radically different from what the Federation is familiar with, it does not change the fact that it would be a more advanced version, shrunk down from what would normally be equipped on a spacecraft, a good sized, Type 6 shuttle being the smallest example. If an Hirogen hunter has advanced technology in his suit which would normally need to be mounted on a vehicle, that is indeed impressive, but it does not mean he has armor or combat shields to match a shuttle. It also does not mean that the Federation can suddenly deploy the same technology in a suit, just because he did. Bringing up this example, which is questionable to begin with, really adds nothing to the discussion, other than providing supplemental evidence that storm trooper armor is unlikely to provide any appreciable protection from phaser fire, which is already agreed upon.

After you acknowledge that special technology with limited military application may have been behind the Hirogen's grandiose claims, you go on to claim once again that the suit would be made of a near impregnable material. This is based on what, that he allegedly goes spelunking on collapsed stars? Further, you automatically assume that since his armor must be awesome, phasers must therefore be proportionately more powerful. This conclusion is not adequately supported by other evidence. Since the Hirogen was stunned, not killed, the best argument you could make here is that Tuvok was using the "kill" setting when he shot him, either intending to kill the Hirogen, or in anticipation the target's resilience to normal stun. I might point out a "kill" setting having its effect reduced to only stunning the target does not even require fancy armor, but can even occur when the target has unnaturally high adrenaline levels, as occurred in TNG S1:E24 "Conspiracy." Bear in mind this is the best case scenario as well. Tuvok may just as well have had his weapon set to normal stun as not.

While we don't know exactly what Hirogen body armor is made of, your claim that "something like centimeter thick tritanium or duranium " would laugh off blaster fire interests me. How exactly did you arrive at this conclusion? Of course I agree, typical blasters shouldn't threaten such armor. At least I should hope not, considering hand phasers cannot reliably penetrate these materials themselves.

-1. Even if we ignore the logical problems, and blindly assume that this suit lets the Alpha stroll around on a collapsed star, it's not Federation technology. It's the special suit of an alien race from the Delta quadrant about which little is known. It does not reflect the defenses normally employed by the Federation or any of the other major Alpha or Beta quadrant powers.

Hirogen armor is technology that Federation technology can defeat, and is made of better stuff then any clone or storm trooper's armor was ever made from.

Conversely, we often see blasters defeated by metal plates.

Yes, a phaser can kill a storm trooper though his armor. I have never doubted this. I cannot imagine why you keep seeking additional evidence for this, unless you are trying to quell doubts of your own. As far as blasters being defeated by metal plates, we know nothing about these materials. Note that phasers have also been defeated by metal plates. We have also seen instances where blasters penetrate a number of things, including humanoid torsos, even a fully armored clone trooper, as well as metal droids. The most obvious examples I can recall were "metal plates" defeated blasters in a reliable fashion are the solid "riot shields" used by clones and Mandalorian police. Unlike any other examples, we can clearly see the approximate thickness of these "plates" and its quite obvious they were expected to reliably block incoming fire.
Note that these "blast shields" are not much, if any thicker than the average B1 battle droid casing, and not even as thick as the casing of a B2 super battle droid (couldn't find a screencap for the B2, but as I recall from the shows, it appears to be about 1.5-2.0 times as thick as the B1), neither of which demonstrate significant resistance to blasters. There is a definite difference between these shields and more common materials. However, given the apparent ease with which these shields are wielded, it seems unlikely that they are simply made of a super dense material. In view of this, considering other references that indicate armor to actually be energetically "shielded," and drawing comparisons to the similar Gungan and CIS shields used by commando droids, I'm more inclined to think that these shields are "powered," rather than just being simple plates. Why aren't droids or clone armor made of this stuff? Probably because of "reasons." In fact, I'll bet they're the same "reasons" that most UFP soldiers don't have personal shields! ;)

-3. -A. Scientifically, I can't wrap my head around what type of collapsed star would have a neutronium mantle. In neutron stars, neutronium, specifically neutron-degenerate matter, comprises the core, maintained by the intense gravity. Any form of "mantle," in the traditional sense of the word, would not be comprised of actual neutronium in the sense implied here. On top of this, the surface temperatures of neutron stars, even a white dwarf, are hot enough to not only melt, but vaporize silicon. So much for tracking a silicon-based life form on one, unless the prey too was sporting a super suit.

-B. Assuming it is some alternate version of an exotic, dead star, it may be one that has cooled and is no longer emitting such extreme radiation. Such circumstances better fit the dialogue in the episode "Prey," considering the statement was prompted by Chakotay's questioning if the Hirogen's armor could withstand rapid pressure fluctuations. To be comprised of neutronium, the extreme gravity this suit must endure is still a little hard to swallow but, even if this is the case, and the suit truly allows him to overcome such gravity and pressure extremes, it still has no bearing on the claims made here. Since phasers, and blasters, appear to utilize thermal and particle radiation, not gravity.

This is actually real world physics at work. Much like the Earth, neutron stars have layers that differ in composition. It would appea rthat the surface of a neutron star is composed of iron for example.
http://www.astro.umd.edu/~miller/nstar.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutron_star

Interesting reads. However those real world physics do not add credence to the Hirogen's claims. In fact I'd say they raise even more questions than I already brought up before. One of my original objections to the scenario was the allusion to a "neutronium mantle." As I first said, and the links you provide reaffirm, "neutronium" does not compose the "mantle," it is theorized to compose the core. I also questioned the validity of the most direct interpretations of the Hirogen's comment, since the massive compression that would be needed to form "neutronium" would prevent the formation of any kind of "caverns" or other vacant spaces which the hunter, or his prey, could actually move through. But then, the layers of a neutron star that would most likely be referred to as the "mantle" are supposed to be superfluid. I suppose the Hirogen could have parked his ship on the iron surface, and was swimming through the mantle while tracking his prey. Or, perhaps instead of using something like metaphasic shielding, he was actually using something more akin to a molecular phase inverter, avoiding direct interaction with the environment altogether. Although this doesn't help explain how the prey was managing in this environment. Of course, he never actually says it was a neutron star either, simply that he tracked quarry though "neutronium," which is a very vague, non-scientific term for "really dense matter." This still does not answer any questions however, it only serves to add more ambiguity to the circumstances.

I have the feeling that I still haven't clearly illustrated why I do not find the vague references to the advanced technology of a prideful race from the opposite side of the galaxy as the Federation to be relevant to the general effectiveness of an average Federation soldier, so I'll try another tact. I believe a more contemporary analogy may better drive my point home. In this example, there was a 21st century man named Hiro Jin. He had a special silver suit which he used to explore the interior of an active volcano. Later, he was wearing the suit and relating his experiences, explaining how his suit protects him from hazardous environments to an aspiring volcanologist who suddenly had call to shoot him through the suit with something called an "M1911."

Considering how hazardous volcanoes are, (did you know that Mt. St. Helens released approximately 24 megatons of energy in it's 1980 eruption, and that common lava is often near 1,000 C, containing over 1 GJ over thermal energy per cubic meter?) I am quite impressed with how potent this century old weapon must be to defeat such advanced, impenetrable defenses. Considering weapons of the early 20th century were so devastating, I can just imagine what their body armor was like. An everyday combatant using the "normal" firearms and body armor of today wouldn't stand a chance against such a force. Of course, this all sounds very impressive, but I'm sure you can see the flaws of such conclusions, and how it parallels to the Hirogen's brief statement, and it's relationship to phasers and Federation armor. Such vague, leading statements really offer no useful information for us to draw any sound conclusions from.

To summarize, I find the likelihood of the Hirogen literally walking around through the caverns of a collapsed star hard to accept. A number of unknown circumstances could be in play here, we only have a brief statement made by proud hunter. I find the assertions a bit contradictory to the rest of Star Treks typical technological capabilities, at least in the Alpha quadrant. Under those circumstances, a Hirogen with a jet pack could defeat a Federation shuttle in battle. Given the resilience of the Hirogen ships to Voyager's weapons later on, then perhaps we are supposed to believe that Hirogen body armor really is that awesome, but even if we do, it is still not Federation armor, and shows a definite disparity between the two cultures defensive technologies. That a hand phaser manages to defeat his armor is indeed impressive, assuming it is truly that resilient, but as there is already little doubt as to a phasers ability to defeat storm trooper armor, the whole point becomes moot.
To use that vague and isolated incident as an example of what the Federation should be viewed as capable of, is as reasonable sifting through one of the many extreme low end examples there are to chose from. I hope that clarifies my response.

A millimeter of something like Star Trek Duranium or Tritanium showed be more then enough to stop a blaster, but it really won't help against a phaser.

Well, that’s tougher to say. On the one hand, these materials are actually noted as being quite phaser resistant. The tritanium I-beam in TNG S1:E21 "Arsenal of Freedom" appeared to be roughly 60 cm high:
http://tng.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x21/ ... hd_070.jpg
with a flange thickness close to 3 cm:
http://tng.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x21/ ... hd_069.jpg
It was clearly stated that whatever had melted through it was beyond Federation technology, including phasers. While I'm sure the technology on Minos was harvested by the Federation, I doubt they managed to go from marveling at a bulky, man-sized cannon:
http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... nal034.jpg
melting its way through this metal beam to having the power to casually blast through it with a phaser pistol in under a decade. The runabout door in DS9 S1:E7 "Q-Less" was made of "duranium composite," and according to Sisko would take an hour to burn through with a hand phaser. I would estimate the door to be roughly 5 cm thick:
http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ess006.jpg
although I doubt it's a solid piece of duranium. It could still be several cm thick, or it could be no more than would be found on a modern car door skin, which is about 1 mm. Considering that the door and hull probably have dead space for various system components, and judging by how far the nearby control panel was recessed:
http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ess007.jpg
I'd guess the actual duranium skin to be between 1 or 2 cm thick. We can go on to compare this to damaged panels that had been removed from a shuttle on the Enterprise in TNG S6:E7 "Rascals" here:
http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... als147.jpg
http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... als148.jpg

The panels of that shuttle likewise appear to be between 1 and 2 cm in thickness. Now in that same episode, LaForge and O'Brien go to examine a pile of bulkhead fragments from the shuttle, and LaForge picks up a flat piece which O'Brien says looks like tritanium from the hull, and indeed it looks more like the flat hull pieces than the rest of the pile it came from, only thinner, about 1 cm thick at most:
http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... als150.jpg
Under the circumstances, it's difficult to tell whether the tritanium fragment is actually from the outer hull, or the bulkhead, as other references frequently indicate bulkheads to be tritanium. In TNG S7:E15 "Lower Decks" a type-3 phaser is used to scorch the hull of the same model Type 6 shuttlecraft, in order to simulate that it had fled an attack.
http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... cks150.jpg
http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... cks152.jpg
http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... cks161.jpg
http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... cks162.jpg
It is unknown what level the phaser is set on, but in light of the previous example with the runabout hatch in DS9, it stands to reason that this craft's skin is also highly resistant to a handheld phaser, though not impervious, and that the weapon was set quite high, if not maxed out. If indeed the outer hull of this craft is comprised of tritanium, it would seem to indicate that the material is able to be damaged by hand phasers, albeit to a limited degree. While the hull was technically damaged, considering that several seconds sustained fire did not deeply penetrate the surface, it would still fit with the away team being impressed by the bulky tritanium beam being melted clean though in the afore mentioned "Arsenal of Freedom" episode.

Now, as to your assertion that a mere millimeter of either tritanium or duranium would fail to protect against a phaser, yet would easily stop a blaster, that is rather difficult to address. While phasers have failed to efficiently penetrate these materials in the past, these examples have been against thicker spacecraft hulls, and they do still seem to have the capacity to damage these materials. While blasters do not display the same level of power as phasers, at such minuscule volumes I wouldn't seek shelter behind a mere 1 mm sheet of either of these materials with much confidence that I would be safe from a storm trooper. Even super Trek materials need some bulk to work their magic. For comparison, consider that even the much maligned .22 LR (5.6×15R) will pierce 1 mm of steel plate in the real world. "Magical" duranium and tritanium may be fantastically more resilient than garden variety steel, but then both Star Wars' and Star Trek's "ray guns" are fantastically more powerful than your everyday lead slug of today. It's not really clear how a single millimeter of either Trek material would stand up. A phaser burst should penetrate, but then, such a thin layer may not stop a blaster bolt either.

Despite my doubts as to how predictable the result of this armor trial would turn out, you seem to have gone well out of your way to try to find a scenario in which the materials in question would most likely fail under phaser fire, while still possibly surviving a blaster bolt. Given that these materials can hold off several seconds of sustained phaser fire with little apparent damage at roughly 1 to 2 cm thickness, I'd say the better question is "why isn't this already used as body armor?" I'm not talking about such thick plates as used on shuttles even. Judging by the evidence available, a simple 5 mm plate similar to modern trauma plates should be enough to save a UFP soldier's life should he get shot, forget trying to turn him in to a tank. But this is not the case. Whatever reasons they have for not utilizing such inserts, be they good or bad (outside of the power of plot), it is not done. It is certainly no more likely that they will spontaneously decide to start using 1 mm sheet metal good for nothing except possibly stopping the odd blaster bolt, when they do not already do so. Unless of course, there are advanced heavy troopers even less common than the rarely seen soldier with the rubbery padded armor. All I can say in response to that non-canon speculation is: send in the Dark Troopers.

I think that sums up everything, but, for the sake of convenience, considering these two threads are somewhat intertwined, I am including a link to this thread discussing Star War stromtrooper armor vrs UFP armed hand phaser for easy reference.

[Lucky]

Thank you for making my point. In the episode I referenced, Riker very clearly says "That's more power than our entire ship can generate. " With a mere drop of common sense, and some additional references, we are able to reasonably conclude that it is the communication system, not the whole ship, as the statement would otherwise imply by itself. Similarly, here we have one vague sentence from a prideful hunter which implies man-sized defensive technology to rival a Federation starship, whether or not it makes sense or agrees with other canon information. To take that implication to its extreme, then take the fact that the Hirogen was vulnerable to a phaser rifle so as to jump to the conclusion that the Federation must also possess armor of this quality, since they are capable of defeating it, and that their weapons must be more intense than the environment found in a collapsed star, is ludicrous. That would be circular reasoning, based upon an assumption, based upon the implications of a particular interpretation of a single dubious statement, the conclusion of which flies contrary to other references.

Except you are still taking the line out of context of the scene and the episode to reach a desired result. Out of context is out of context.

In the scene they are talking about communications systems.

In the episode they are running maintenance on the ships deuterium control conduit which would greatly limit all the reactors on the ship, and later appear some things seem to contradict him.

You have to remove the line from the context it was given in in order for Riker to say what he appears to be saying.

One point being that even if we accept the Hirogen's impressive sounding claim at face value, such technologies providing protection from environmental hazards do not automatically translate into equivalent, across-the-board military defenses.

Given we are talking about big game hunter, the Hirogen use their tech as often as they could. They go hand to hand with things that rip apart starship armor with its bare hands after all.

As far as the "metaphasic shield" is concerned, calling it a shield gives it certain connotative attributes, but as you said, that it enabled entry into a star's corona for both a shuttle and the Enterprise E does not make the two vessel's military defenses equal. Recall too, that when the Enterprise used this device to flee the Borg ship in "Descent, part 2" they were already dangerously close to the star before engaging it. That they waited until the last possible moment and never even considered trying it against the Borg ship indicates that it would have little to no effect against conventional weapon fire.

1) Star diving is something ships in Star Trek do without working or at least properly working shields. They only need "metaphasic shields" when dealing with abnormal environments like the stars seen in Decent and Suspicions..

2) The metaphasic shielding was just ready for testing during Decent so it isn't a good example.

After you acknowledge that special technology with limited military application may have been behind the Hirogen's grandiose claims, you go on to claim once again that the suit would be made of a near impregnable material. This is based on what, that he allegedly goes spelunking on collapsed stars? Further, you automatically assume that since his armor must be awesome, phasers must therefore be proportionately more powerful. This conclusion is not adequately supported by other evidence. Since the Hirogen was stunned, not killed, the best argument you could make here is that Tuvok was using the "kill" setting when he shot him, either intending to kill the Hirogen, or in anticipation the target's resilience to normal stun. I might point out a "kill" setting having its effect reduced to only stunning the target does not even require fancy armor, but can even occur when the target has unnaturally high adrenaline levels, as occurred in TNG S1:E24 "Conspiracy." Bear in mind this is the best case scenario as well. Tuvok may just as well have had his weapon set to normal stun as not.

2) Phasers are designed to bypass and or penetrate armors and shields as are many weapons in Star Trek as TNG: The Arsonal of freedom, DS9: Business as Usual points out.

While we don't know exactly what Hirogen body armor is made of, your claim that "something like centimeter thick tritanium or duranium " would laugh off blaster fire interests me. How exactly did you arrive at this conclusion? Of course I agree, typical blasters shouldn't threaten such armor. At least I should hope not, considering hand phasers cannot reliably penetrate these materials themselves.

Star Trek
The idea that you would build an armor out of things like Tritanium comes from the fact the Federation builds packing crates, shuttle and starship hulls out of the Tritanium and Duranium, and it will stand up to phasers like we see Hirogen armor do.

Tritanium can not be melted at least with a type-2 phaser(The Arsenal of Freedom) or or the power/plasma conduits on Deep Space Nine(In the hands of the prophets)

Tritanium is used as armor on assault skimmers(Business as usual)

Borg Tacticale drone infrastructure is made of tritanium

Tritanium is 21.4 times harder then diamond(Obsession)

Duranium alloys are used in packing crates and starship armor.

We know from TNG: Decent that the hull of a Galaxy class will not melt even when heated to 12,000 degrees centigrade. Iron runs like water at about 2,000 degrees

In TNG: To Short a Season we see type-2 phasers easily cut through an inch or three of steelplast meant to seal off some old tunnels

In TNG: Suspicions we see Dr.Crusher burn a hole through a humanoid's abdomen without any problem

In TNG: The Vengeance Factor we are told the beam of a Type-2 Phaser set to setting 7 is about 2314 degrees and likely a touch hotter

In TNG: The Arsenal of Freedom we find out that a Type-2 Phaser can't melt tritanium.

In TNG: A Matter of Perspective they are shocked that something was putting holes in duranium panels, and they imply that simple energy transfer won't do that sort of damage.

In DS9: Business as Usual you have the CRM-114 that is roughly about the size of a Type-3 Phaser. stated to be intended for use against moving vehicles and surface impalements, and it is rated to be effective against 6 to 15 centimeters of reactive armor and shields up to the 4.6 gigajoule range.
http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/mem ... -prefix=en

Then you have the crashes in Voyager: Timeless and TNG: Generations where the hulls smash through mountain tops and more with little to no damage taken.

Star Wars
You have the Invisible Hand's armor burning up and seemingly crushing itself during a powered and controlled crash landing in Revenge of the Sith.

Blaster rarely if ever put holes through people. I can vaguely recall it happening once in Star Wars: The Clone Wars when the senators are taken hostage to free Zero the Hut, and never happening again even though the Cad Bane(?) used the exact same guns throughout the entire series.

Storm and Clone Trooper armor seems to work by ablation(I think that's the word i want). The blaster bolt seems to do damage by exploding.

Yes, a phaser can kill a storm trooper though his armor. I have never doubted this. I cannot imagine why you keep seeking additional evidence for this, unless you are trying to quell doubts of your own.

Sorry, I've just seen far too many claim how super awesome Storm Trooper armor is.

As far as blasters being defeated by metal plates, we know nothing about these materials. Note that phasers have also been defeated by metal plates. We have also seen instances where blasters penetrate a number of things, including humanoid torsos, even a fully armored clone trooper, as well as metal droids. The most obvious examples I can recall were "metal plates" defeated blasters in a reliable fashion are the solid "riot shields" used by clones and Mandalorian police. Unlike any other examples, we can clearly see the approximate thickness of these "plates" and its quite obvious they were expected to reliably block incoming fire.

1) Actually it's stated that drums, packing crates, etc are made from the same stuff they use as starship armor often in Star Trek, and that the cover is temporary.

2) Battle droids are ripped apart by clone troopers with their bare hands...

Note that these "blast shields" are not much, if any thicker than the average B1 battle droid casing, and not even as thick as the casing of a B2 super battle droid (couldn't find a screencap for the B2, but as I recall from the shows, it appears to be about 1.5-2.0 times as thick as the B1), neither of which demonstrate significant resistance to blasters. There is a definite difference between these shields and more common materials. However, given the apparent ease with which these shields are wielded, it seems unlikely that they are simply made of a super dense material. In view of this, considering other references that indicate armor to actually be energetically "shielded," and drawing comparisons to the similar Gungan and CIS shields used by commando droids, I'm more inclined to think that these shields are "powered," rather than just being simple plates. Why aren't droids or clone armor made of this stuff? Probably because of "reasons." In fact, I'll bet they're the same "reasons" that most UFP soldiers don't have personal shields! ;)

1) Thickness of something doesn't mean much when it comes to armor. Two types of steel of the same thickness will not be equal after all.

2) The armor given to StarFleet sailors seems more akin to Dow Corning's Deflexion judging by the performance. Very good against blunt strikes, hot, cold, and possibly electricity.

Actual StarFleet ground troops get heavier/thicker armor, personal shields, and a similar ballistic shield that roles up into a nice little cylinder.
Pictures can be found here: http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWground-defense.html

3) I fail to see why a "blast shield" needs to be powered any more then the real world version a ballistic shield is? A metal foam of the right alloy should be enough to stop a blaster bolt as the shield just needs to cause the bolt to explode, and keep the energy away from the trooper.

4) The armor technology is likely used on vehicles, but vehicles can easily carry more powerful weapons or are better at penetrating armor.

Interesting reads. However those real world physics do not add credence to the Hirogen's claims. In fact I'd say they raise even more questions than I already brought up before. One of my original objections to the scenario was the allusion to a "neutronium mantle." As I first said, and the links you provide reaffirm, "neutronium" does not compose the "mantle," it is theorized to compose the core. I also questioned the validity of the most direct interpretations of the Hirogen's comment, since the massive compression that would be needed to form "neutronium" would prevent the formation of any kind of "caverns" or other vacant spaces which the hunter, or his prey, could actually move through. But then, the layers of a neutron star that would most likely be referred to as the "mantle" are supposed to be superfluid. I suppose the Hirogen could have parked his ship on the iron surface, and was swimming through the mantle while tracking his prey. Or, perhaps instead of using something like metaphasic shielding, he was actually using something more akin to a molecular phase inverter, avoiding direct interaction with the environment altogether. Although this doesn't help explain how the prey was managing in this environment. Of course, he never actually says it was a neutron star either, simply that he tracked quarry though "neutronium," which is a very vague, non-scientific term for "really dense matter." This still does not answer any questions however, it only serves to add more ambiguity to the circumstances.

I have the feeling that I still haven't clearly illustrated why I do not find the vague references to the advanced technology of a prideful race from the opposite side of the galaxy as the Federation to be relevant to the general effectiveness of an average Federation soldier, so I'll try another tact. I believe a more contemporary analogy may better drive my point home. In this example, there was a 21st century man named Hiro Jin. He had a special silver suit which he used to explore the interior of an active volcano. Later, he was wearing the suit and relating his experiences, explaining how his suit protects him from hazardous environments to an aspiring volcanologist who suddenly had call to shoot him through the suit with something called an "M1911."

Considering how hazardous volcanoes are, (did you know that Mt. St. Helens released approximately 24 megatons of energy in it's 1980 eruption, and that common lava is often near 1,000 C, containing over 1 GJ over thermal energy per cubic meter?) I am quite impressed with how potent this century old weapon must be to defeat such advanced, impenetrable defenses. Considering weapons of the early 20th century were so devastating, I can just imagine what their body armor was like. An everyday combatant using the "normal" firearms and body armor of today wouldn't stand a chance against such a force. Of course, this all sounds very impressive, but I'm sure you can see the flaws of such conclusions, and how it parallels to the Hirogen's brief statement, and it's relationship to phasers and Federation armor. Such vague, leading statements really offer no useful information for us to draw any sound conclusions from.

My point was that the Hirogen wasn't just making random stuff up, and was accurately describing a neutron star.

Well, that’s tougher to say. On the one hand, these materials are actually noted as being quite phaser resistant. The tritanium I-beam in TNG S1:E21 "Arsenal of Freedom" appeared to be roughly 60 cm high:
http://tng.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x21/ ... hd_070.jpg
with a flange thickness close to 3 cm:
http://tng.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x21/ ... hd_069.jpg
It was clearly stated that whatever had melted through it was beyond Federation technology, including phasers. While I'm sure the technology on Minos was harvested by the Federation, I doubt they managed to go from marveling at a bulky, man-sized cannon:
http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... nal034.jpg
melting its way through this metal beam to having the power to casually blast through it with a phaser pistol in under a decade. The runabout door in DS9 S1:E7 "Q-Less" was made of "duranium composite," and according to Sisko would take an hour to burn through with a hand phaser. I would estimate the door to be roughly 5 cm thick:
http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ess006.jpg
although I doubt it's a solid piece of duranium. It could still be several cm thick, or it could be no more than would be found on a modern car door skin, which is about 1 mm. Considering that the door and hull probably have dead space for various system components, and judging by how far the nearby control panel was recessed:
http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ess007.jpg
I'd guess the actual duranium skin to be between 1 or 2 cm thick. We can go on to compare this to damaged panels that had been removed from a shuttle on the Enterprise in TNG S6:E7 "Rascals" here:
http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... als147.jpg
http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... als148.jpg

The panels of that shuttle likewise appear to be between 1 and 2 cm in thickness. Now in that same episode, LaForge and O'Brien go to examine a pile of bulkhead fragments from the shuttle, and LaForge picks up a flat piece which O'Brien says looks like tritanium from the hull, and indeed it looks more like the flat hull pieces than the rest of the pile it came from, only thinner, about 1 cm thick at most:
http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... als150.jpg
Under the circumstances, it's difficult to tell whether the tritanium fragment is actually from the outer hull, or the bulkhead, as other references frequently indicate bulkheads to be tritanium. In TNG S7:E15 "Lower Decks" a type-3 phaser is used to scorch the hull of the same model Type 6 shuttlecraft, in order to simulate that it had fled an attack.
http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... cks150.jpg
http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... cks152.jpg
http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... cks161.jpg
http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... cks162.jpg
It is unknown what level the phaser is set on, but in light of the previous example with the runabout hatch in DS9, it stands to reason that this craft's skin is also highly resistant to a handheld phaser, though not impervious, and that the weapon was set quite high, if not maxed out. If indeed the outer hull of this craft is comprised of tritanium, it would seem to indicate that the material is able to be damaged by hand phasers, albeit to a limited degree. While the hull was technically damaged, considering that several seconds sustained fire did not deeply penetrate the surface, it would still fit with the away team being impressed by the bulky tritanium beam being melted clean though in the afore mentioned "Arsenal of Freedom" episode.

Now, as to your assertion that a mere millimeter of either tritanium or duranium would fail to protect against a phaser, yet would easily stop a blaster, that is rather difficult to address. While phasers have failed to efficiently penetrate these materials in the past, these examples have been against thicker spacecraft hulls, and they do still seem to have the capacity to damage these materials. While blasters do not display the same level of power as phasers, at such minuscule volumes I wouldn't seek shelter behind a mere 1 mm sheet of either of these materials with much confidence that I would be safe from a storm trooper. Even super Trek materials need some bulk to work their magic. For comparison, consider that even the much maligned .22 LR (5.6×15R) will pierce 1 mm of steel plate in the real world. "Magical" duranium and tritanium may be fantastically more resilient than garden variety steel, but then both Star Wars' and Star Trek's "ray guns" are fantastically more powerful than your everyday lead slug of today. It's not really clear how a single millimeter of either Trek material would stand up. A phaser burst should penetrate, but then, such a thin layer may not stop a blaster bolt either.

1) Basically you need a Starship scale weapon to damage tritanium. Clearly the Federation has a way to work tritanium like any other metal, or they would never be able to use it for anything.. It would seem that type-2 phasers of the time could not damage tritanium however, and if anything, the United Federation of Planets upgrades their tech fast and often.

2) Stopping a blaster bolt is a far easier task then stopping a phaser beam do to behavior kind of like a Frag-12 Shotgun shell, but a phaser beam is a number of things including plasma(Best of Both Worlds, Decent), nadion particles(Minds Eye), photons(Best of both worlds), and who knows what else. A lot of forms of radiation will pass through most solid objects, but a blast wave won't, and this makes phasers very hard to defend against.

Despite my doubts as to how predictable the result of this armor trial would turn out, you seem to have gone well out of your way to try to find a scenario in which the materials in question would most likely fail under phaser fire, while still possibly surviving a blaster bolt. Given that these materials can hold off several seconds of sustained phaser fire with little apparent damage at roughly 1 to 2 cm thickness, I'd say the better question is "why isn't this already used as body armor?" I'm not talking about such thick plates as used on shuttles even. Judging by the evidence available, a simple 5 mm plate similar to modern trauma plates should be enough to save a UFP soldier's life should he get shot, forget trying to turn him in to a tank. But this is not the case. Whatever reasons they have for not utilizing such inserts, be they good or bad (outside of the power of plot), it is not done. It is certainly no more likely that they will spontaneously decide to start using 1 mm sheet metal good for nothing except possibly stopping the odd blaster bolt, when they do not already do so. Unless of course, there are advanced heavy troopers even less common than the rarely seen soldier with the rubbery padded armor. All I can say in response to that non-canon speculation is: send in the Dark Troopers.

Just because you stop part of a phaser beam does not mean you stopped enough to be safe from it.