How Large is the United Federation of Planets?

[Lucky]

COCHRANE: Believe me, Captain, immortality consists largely of boredom. What's it like out there in the galaxy? 


KIRK: We're on a thousand planets and spreading out. We cross fantastic distances and everything's alive, Cochrane. Life everywhere. We estimate there are millions of planets with intelligent life. We haven't begun to map them. Interesting?

LILY: How many planets are in this Federation?


PICARD: Over one hundred and fifty ...spread across eight thousand light years.

United Federation of Planets
Founded in 2161, the United Federation of Planets is an interstellar alliance of more than 150 planetary governments, spread out over 8,000 light-years. Members of the Federation are united in various endeavors involving trade, exploration, science and defense. The Federation is overseen by the Federation Council, which is comprised of representatives from member planets. The Council meets in San Francisco on Earth and is led by the Federation president, based in Paris.

KOSINSKI: As an explorer. In three centuries of space flight, we've charted just eleven percent of our galaxy. And then we accomplish this.

WESLEY: For both of us. This is all just beginning. We've only charted nineteen percent of our galaxy. The rest is out there, just waiting. Look what we've already discovered.

Milky Way galaxy
Some 19 percent of the galaxy has been charted as of 2365.

If the Federation has mapped at least 19% of the Milky Way Galaxy then wouldn't the Federation be far larger then 8,000 light years in reality?

[359]

Not necissarily, they can and do explore outside their borders after all. A lot of TNG took place outside of the Federation. So while the Federation itself is only 8,000 ly across, its starships cover a far greater area.

[Lucky]

Not necissarily, they can and do explore outside their borders after all. A lot of TNG took place outside of the Federation. So while the Federation itself is only 8,000 ly across, its starships cover a far greater area.

Within the 8,000 ly space there are non-member states so the Enterprise operating outside Federation space tells us nothing.

Where is this 8,000 ly size for the total United Federation of Planets stated? The quotes I have found are all weasel words that place no upper limit on the Federation's actual size. Colonies are not member governments.

[Khas]

Not necissarily, they can and do explore outside their borders after all. A lot of TNG took place outside of the Federation. So while the Federation itself is only 8,000 ly across, its starships cover a far greater area.

Within the 8,000 ly space there are non-member states so the Enterprise operating outside Federation space tells us nothing.

Where is this 8,000 ly size for the total United Federation of Planets stated? The quotes I have found are all weasel words that place no upper limit on the Federation's actual size. Colonies are not member governments.

It was from Star Trek: First Contact, where Lilly asks Picard just how many planets are in the Federation, and he says "Over 150, spread across 8,000 light-years".

Given Kirk's statement that the people of the Federation have spread to "a thousand worlds" when talking to Zefram Cochrane, it's likely that the Federation has 150 member worlds, and a few thousand colonies by the 2370s.

[Darth Spock]

Political borders probably are the big limiting factor here. Picard's statement regarding "member worlds" and not colonies or established star charts seems to back that as well. While some of the Federation members are probably well established interstellar governments, such as the Vulcans, the Federation in general doesn't have the long established borders of some of its more aggressive imperialistic neighbors, namely the Romulans and Klingons, who are relatively close by, cutting off potential territories the Federation could claim.
In addition to those powers, there are many others mentioned periodically through the series that would likely hamper free expansion of the Federation's borders. The Cardassians, Tholians, Sheliak, Talarians, had all engaged in hostilities with the Federation to some extent or another regarding border disputes. The Federation may or may not be able to defeat some of these opponents, but they aren't conquerers after all, and given their penchant for recruiting races just recently having attained warp technology, many of their members probably didn't bring much real estate to the table upon their induction. Even so, The federation holds territory that isn't fully utilized as it is, such as countless TNG episodes featuring fairly small colonies and research and observation facilities on mostly undeveloped worlds. The Ba'ku are another example, clearly they were not Federation members, yet they fell under it's jurisdiction.
All things considered, the Federation doesn't seem to be overcrowded, and are more concerned with exploring and charting the stars as opposed to planting flags. If anything, I would think it more amazing they had managed to chart so much of the galaxy without one of their more xenophobic neighbors telling them to take a hike and stop their aggressive reconnaissance activities.

[Jasonb]

Few factor take into account first Star Trek First Contact Pircard UFP smaller than before UFP had peace between Cardassion Union and UFP. UFP gave territories peace some minor power around it.

Another important fact is if UFP 8,000 light years in cycle shape. That about 8% Milk Way Galaxy right there. Another important point UFP deploy probe far Delta Q. Remember Friendship one in Star Trek Voyager.

Also UFP able expore very freely areas in Klingon Empire beyond borderlines.

Last point Ensign might overstate facts

[Lucky]

Few factor take into account first Star Trek First Contact Pircard UFP smaller than before UFP had peace between Cardassion Union and UFP. UFP gave territories peace some minor power around it.

1) Where is it stated that the Federation lost territory to the Cardassians or any other power?

2) The Federation/Cardassian border seems to be nearly on the Cardassian capital given they are so close to Bajor. The Cardassians gave Bajor to the Federation.
http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ns_001.jpg
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Cardassia_Prime

Another important fact is if UFP 8,000 light years in cycle shape. That about 8% Milk Way Galaxy right there. Another important point UFP deploy probe far Delta Q. Remember Friendship one in Star Trek Voyager.

Also UFP able expore very freely areas in Klingon Empire beyond borderlines.

The Federation can't expand into the Beta Quadrant without absorbing Klingon or Romulan planets, and it was this way all the way back when the NX-01 was a new design.

Last point Ensign might overstate facts

Startrek.com vetos this idea.

[Lucky]

Political borders probably are the big limiting factor here. Picard's statement regarding "member worlds" and not colonies or established star charts seems to back that as well. While some of the Federation members are probably well established interstellar governments, such as the Vulcans, the Federation in general doesn't have the long established borders of some of its more aggressive imperialistic neighbors, namely the Romulans and Klingons, who are relatively close by, cutting off potential territories the Federation could claim.

In addition to those powers, there are many others mentioned periodically through the series that would likely hamper free expansion of the Federation's borders. The Cardassians, Tholians, Sheliak, Talarians, had all engaged in hostilities with the Federation to some extent or another regarding border disputes. The Federation may or may not be able to defeat some of these opponents, but they aren't conquerers after all, and given their penchant for recruiting races just recently having attained warp technology, many of their members probably didn't bring much real estate to the table upon their induction. Even so, The federation holds territory that isn't fully utilized as it is, such as countless TNG episodes featuring fairly small colonies and research and observation facilities on mostly undeveloped worlds. The Ba'ku are another example, clearly they were not Federation members, yet they fell under it's jurisdiction.

All things considered, the Federation doesn't seem to be overcrowded, and are more concerned with exploring and charting the stars as opposed to planting flags. If anything, I would think it more amazing they had managed to chart so much of the galaxy without one of their more xenophobic neighbors telling them to take a hike and stop their aggressive reconnaissance activities.

That quarter of the Milky Way Galaxy located between 3 and 6 o'clock if the great plane of the galaxy is viewed as a clockface and the 6 o'clock position bisects the Sol system. The bulk of the Klingon and Romulan empires, the Ferengi and Tholians are among the major cultures located there along the joint Alpha Quadrant boundary with the Federation, which also extends into it slightly.

Klingon
Romulan
Ferengi
Thollana

That quarter of the Milky Way Galaxy appearing to be located between 6 and 9 o'clock if the great plane of the galaxy is viewed as a clockface and the 6 o'clock position bisects the Sol system.
The quadrant is home to the bulk of the Federation and the Cardassian Union, along with Bajor and its adjacent wormhole which bridges a 70,000-lightyear shortcut to the Gamma Quadrant.

United Federation of Planets
Cardassian Union

STAR TREK IX: “STELLAR CARTOGRAPHY PADD - MILKY WAY GALAXY” ELECTRONIC

A prop PADD (Personal Access Display Device) believed to have been featured in Star Trek IX: Insurrection on the deck of “Captain Picard” (Patrick Stewart). The item is a medium sized injection molded plastic device with a centered ‘display screen’ that features an adhered graphic of the ‘Milky Way Galaxy’ as depicted in Star Trek episodic television and feature films. The graphic features a rendering of the galaxy sectioned into its four quadrants labeled ‘Alpha’, ‘Beta’, Gamma’, and ‘Delta’, and shows the location of ‘Borg Space’, ‘Sol System Federation Starfleet HQ’, the ‘Romulan’ and ‘Klingon Empire’, other native alpha Quadrant species and the terminus of the ‘Idran End of the Bajoran Wormhole’ and what is believed to be the route taken by the “U.S.S. Voyager” crew. The item is painted metallic silver with metallic gold adhesive details and accents. An asymmetrically placed battery pack is housed on the reverse with a cover plate for the battery positions. The item can be powered by 2-3 9volt batteries, one set of battery leads are floating free of the others and the backlit display is capable of being powered by two sets of leads and batteries. A switch on the side activates the back light and illuminates the ‘display screen’. An AC adaptor input is present next to the switch for an unknown power supply that is not present. The item measures approx. 11 X 8.5 X 1.25 inches. All batteries not included. Item Numbe 6746

Well, this is what i was kind of hoping someone would find, but this is still vague, and oddly marks the Sol System, but not Federation space?

[Lucky]

It was from Star Trek: First Contact, where Lilly asks Picard just how many planets are in the Federation, and he says "Over 150, spread across 8,000 light-years".

Good to see you around again.

Picard skillfully fails to answer her question while telling her enough. Picard is talking about the capital planets of member states rather then the actual number of planets and area the Federation controls. In other words, weasel words.

I hope that doesn't come across as hostile?

[Darth Spock]

Few factor take into account first Star Trek First Contact Pircard UFP smaller than before UFP had peace between Cardassion Union and UFP. UFP gave territories peace some minor power around it.

1) Where is it stated that the Federation lost territory to the Cardassians or any other power?

It's the entire reason the Maquis exist, although I can't recall what episode specifically states it.

STAR TREK IX: “STELLAR CARTOGRAPHY PADD - MILKY WAY GALAXY” ELECTRONIC

A prop PADD (Personal Access Display Device) believed to have been featured in Star Trek IX: Insurrection on the deck of “Captain Picard” (Patrick Stewart). The item is a medium sized injection molded plastic device with a centered ‘display screen’ that features an adhered graphic of the ‘Milky Way Galaxy’ as depicted in Star Trek episodic television and feature films. The graphic features a rendering of the galaxy sectioned into its four quadrants labeled ‘Alpha’, ‘Beta’, Gamma’, and ‘Delta’, and shows the location of ‘Borg Space’, ‘Sol System Federation Starfleet HQ’, the ‘Romulan’ and ‘Klingon Empire’, other native alpha Quadrant species and the terminus of the ‘Idran End of the Bajoran Wormhole’ and what is believed to be the route taken by the “U.S.S. Voyager” crew. The item is painted metallic silver with metallic gold adhesive details and accents. An asymmetrically placed battery pack is housed on the reverse with a cover plate for the battery positions. The item can be powered by 2-3 9volt batteries, one set of battery leads are floating free of the others and the backlit display is capable of being powered by two sets of leads and batteries. A switch on the side activates the back light and illuminates the ‘display screen’. An AC adaptor input is present next to the switch for an unknown power supply that is not present. The item measures approx. 11 X 8.5 X 1.25 inches. All batteries not included. Item Numbe 6746

Well, this is what i was kind of hoping someone would find, but this is still vague, and oddly marks the Sol System, but not Federation space?

Neato, I never saw that. Of course I've since given up on "official" Star Trek maps since their reliability often comes into question. But hey, I still like owning the Star Trek Atlas! :)

But as your quotes show, aside from the Klingons and Romulans cutting off roughly half the Federation's potential growth routes, there's plenty of governments out there who, unless they choose to join the Federation, will certainly slow its growth, as I mentioned earlier as well.

It was from Star Trek: First Contact, where Lilly asks Picard just how many planets are in the Federation, and he says "Over 150, spread across 8,000 light-years".

Good to see you around again.

Picard skillfully fails to answer her question while telling her enough. Picard is talking about the capital planets of member states rather then the actual number of planets and area the Federation controls. In other words, weasel words.

I hope that doesn't come across as hostile?

I better see your point now with reference to "weasel words." She really doesn't need to know, and perhaps shouldn't know. Also, member worlds spread over 8000 light-years doesn't exactly mean their entire sphere of influence, i.e. colonies, outposts, stations etc. Still, I have my doubts that Federation territory is that much larger than that. By the same token, the British Empire spanned the globe, but obviously didn't control the world.

P.S. I hope I'm not overstepping, posting comments to statements directed at others. To be honest, I never spent much time on forums in the past, so I might miss some "netiquette" points...

[Picard]

It's the entire reason the Maquis exist, although I can't recall what episode specifically states it.

They didn't actually lose any territory, IIRC these colonies weren't part of Federation to begin with. At the end of the war, some were absorbed by Federation, some were abandoned and some were given to Cardassia in order to make the border more manageable, so even if you consider colonies to have been part of the Federation from get-go, it wouldn't have involved "loss" of territory.

I would think it more amazing they had managed to chart so much of the galaxy without one of their more xenophobic neighbors telling them to take a hike and stop their aggressive reconnaissance activities.

Would you tell a heavyweight boxer he can't sit down on a bench? Only ones that can really do that to 24th century Federation are Klingons (who are allies), Romulans (isolationists) and possibly (?) Tholians. Anyone else can say it, but if Federation decides to simply ignore their requests, there won't be much they'll be able to do about it. Besides, I imagine that there are areas (or at least corridors) of unclaimed space, or where settled systems are sufficiently far apart to allow starships travel withot technically leaving the international space.

[Jasonb]

Right areas that just plan areas no control either lack interest or able to. UFP expand 8,000 light years number reasons. Simple fact neither side told other side to withdraw when area of space suggestion no either want to control or care about control it.

This back even more so by the simple fact Romulus Star Empire unable to expand beyond our nearest star system 4 light years from Earth. All fairness the Andriond might have been also reason and Klingon Empire been reason limit expand might been best Romulus Star Empire do.

Klingon Empire simple cannon terms at least 1,050 light across likely more likely 2,000 light years. Kirk statement easily back that claim

Enterprise being cannon the Klingon Empire homeworld something 50 light years from UFP Territory. UFP might choice distance place meeting USS Enterprise A simple for reason that easily cover it up in practice both sides.

Klingon Empire own territory peace treaty accord easily for 10,000 light years. Other 8,000 light years could been peace talk Cardassion which happen hostile restart to other race for economic reason want the UFP go though space. UFP involved humanity missions well and other areas.

This does even go possible probes deploy expore easily just to far away reach.

[Mike DiCenso]

Few factor take into account first Star Trek First Contact Pircard UFP smaller than before UFP had peace between Cardassion Union and UFP. UFP gave territories peace some minor power around it.

1) Where is it stated that the Federation lost territory to the Cardassians or any other power?

It's the entire reason the Maquis exist, although I can't recall what episode specifically states it.

STAR TREK IX: “STELLAR CARTOGRAPHY PADD - MILKY WAY GALAXY” ELECTRONIC

A prop PADD (Personal Access Display Device) believed to have been featured in Star Trek IX: Insurrection on the deck of “Captain Picard” (Patrick Stewart). The item is a medium sized injection molded plastic device with a centered ‘display screen’ that features an adhered graphic of the ‘Milky Way Galaxy’ as depicted in Star Trek episodic television and feature films. The graphic features a rendering of the galaxy sectioned into its four quadrants labeled ‘Alpha’, ‘Beta’, Gamma’, and ‘Delta’, and shows the location of ‘Borg Space’, ‘Sol System Federation Starfleet HQ’, the ‘Romulan’ and ‘Klingon Empire’, other native alpha Quadrant species and the terminus of the ‘Idran End of the Bajoran Wormhole’ and what is believed to be the route taken by the “U.S.S. Voyager” crew. The item is painted metallic silver with metallic gold adhesive details and accents. An asymmetrically placed battery pack is housed on the reverse with a cover plate for the battery positions. The item can be powered by 2-3 9volt batteries, one set of battery leads are floating free of the others and the backlit display is capable of being powered by two sets of leads and batteries. A switch on the side activates the back light and illuminates the ‘display screen’. An AC adaptor input is present next to the switch for an unknown power supply that is not present. The item measures approx. 11 X 8.5 X 1.25 inches. All batteries not included. Item Numbe 6746

Well, this is what i was kind of hoping someone would find, but this is still vague, and oddly marks the Sol System, but not Federation space?

Neato, I never saw that. Of course I've since given up on "official" Star Trek maps since their reliability often comes into question. But hey, I still like owning the Star Trek Atlas! :)

But as your quotes show, aside from the Klingons and Romulans cutting off roughly half the Federation's potential growth routes, there's plenty of governments out there who, unless they choose to join the Federation, will certainly slow its growth, as I mentioned earlier as well.

It was from Star Trek: First Contact, where Lilly asks Picard just how many planets are in the Federation, and he says "Over 150, spread across 8,000 light-years".

Good to see you around again.

Picard skillfully fails to answer her question while telling her enough. Picard is talking about the capital planets of member states rather then the actual number of planets and area the Federation controls. In other words, weasel words.

I hope that doesn't come across as hostile?

I better see your point now with reference to "weasel words." She really doesn't need to know, and perhaps shouldn't know. Also, member worlds spread over 8000 light-years doesn't exactly mean their entire sphere of influence, i.e. colonies, outposts, stations etc. Still, I have my doubts that Federation territory is that much larger than that. By the same token, the British Empire spanned the globe, but obviously didn't control the world.

P.S. I hope I'm not overstepping, posting comments to statements directed at others. To be honest, I never spent much time on forums in the past, so I might miss some "netiquette" points...

There's the Conspiracy/Hands of the Prophets map that shows, if nothing else, the shape of the Federation and gives a general idea of how big it is.
-Mike

[Lucky]

It's the entire reason the Maquis exist, although I can't recall what episode specifically states it.

TNG: Journy's End
NECHEYEV: You'll notice a demilitarised zone has also been created along the border. Neither side will be permitted to place military outposts, conduct fleet exercises, or station warships anywhere in the demilitarised area. 


PICARD: This border places several Federation colonies in Cardassian territory and some Cardassian colonies in ours. 


NECHEYEV: This agreement is far from perfect. Neither side got everything they wanted, but every side got something. And as someone once said, diplomacy is the art of the possible. Those colonies finding themselves on the wrong side of the border will have to be moved.

-SNIP-

NECHEYEV: An Indian representative was included in the deliberations of the Federation Council. His objections were noted, discussed, but ultimately rejected. Captain, the Indians on Dorvan are a nomadic group that have settled there only twenty years ago, and at that time they were warned that the planet was hotly disputed by the Cardassians. The bottom line is they never should have gone there in the first place.

Basically the Maquis settled outside of Federation space, and then acted like spoiled brats when they were told to move or stop being Federation citizens. They aren't the innocent victims they are often portrayed as on Sci-Fi web sites.

It's rather interesting that we never hear of the fate of the Cardassians who were suddenly in Federation space.

Neato, I never saw that. Of course I've since given up on "official" Star Trek maps since their reliability often comes into question. But hey, I still like owning the Star Trek Atlas! :)

I much rather use the maps that appear on screen, and I just realized that the Federation extends to the Bajoran wormhole. The Federation likely controls most of the volume between the listed powers.

But as your quotes show, aside from the Klingons and Romulans cutting off roughly half the Federation's potential growth routes, there's plenty of governments out there who, unless they choose to join the Federation, will certainly slow its growth, as I mentioned earlier as well.

But we hear of few other powers making it sound as though there are large tracks of unclaimed space, and that those lesser powers control almost nothing.

I better see your point now with reference to "weasel words." She really doesn't need to know, and perhaps shouldn't know. Also, member worlds spread over 8000 light-years doesn't exactly mean their entire sphere of influence, i.e. colonies, outposts, stations etc. Still, I have my doubts that Federation territory is that much larger than that. By the same token, the British Empire spanned the globe, but obviously didn't control the world.

My point was actually that we don't know how large the Federation is.

The Bajoran Wormhole is at one extreme end of the Federation, and opposite Earth.

P.S. I hope I'm not overstepping, posting comments to statements directed at others. To be honest, I never spent much time on forums in the past, so I might miss some "netiquette" points...

As a general rule: If you can read the post, it is as much to you are anyone else who can read it.

Like most sites of this sort SFJ has a PM function.

[Lucky]

There's the Conspiracy/Hands of the Prophets map that shows, if nothing else, the shape of the Federation and gives a general idea of how big it is.
-Mike

How large an area does each cube encapsulate?