TCW Story Reels

[Darth Spock]

Actually after taking another look at the reel it turned out that the bolts hitting the crystal already disintegrate things. The beams coming from the crystal produce a different affect though.

Really? where about in the video was this? To be honest, I've kind of wanted to see a "disintegrater" in action ever since Vader told Fett not to do it in ESB, but the kyber crystal is not what I had in mind...

It was in crystal crisis when the aliens were chasing Anakin and Obi-wan, between the first hit on the crystal and about 1 minute before.

I looked, I never did find it... closest I saw was some dirt fountains dissipating from near misses. Ah well, the crystal is funky, and there it is. If they ever do show a disruptor of any kind though, I'm hoping for the old "pile of ash" treatment. Don't tell me that wouldn't look cool.

And, despite what is often stated, it is possible for crystals to have greater then 100% efficiencies

For clarification, that does not violate conservation of energy as a Kyber crystal seems to. The greater than 100% efficiency is a reference frame issue. Simply looking at electrical input to photo output, yes it does have >100%, however, that extra energy is absorbed in the form of heat. So the extra light is generated by cooling the local environment as well as dissipating electrical potential.

Presumably a similar effect occurs with Kyber crystals. They appear to violate the laws of thermodynamics, but that's just because we aren't factoring in some energy source they draw from.

Given the strong connection they keep implying between the kyber crystals and the Force, it seems the most likely. No one ever complained about where the power source for Yoda's invisible winch is on Dagobah, or where under his robes Sidious hides his "lightning battery."

[theta_pinch]

Actually after taking another look at the reel it turned out that the bolts hitting the crystal already disintegrate things. The beams coming from the crystal produce a different affect though.

I looked, I never did find it... closest I saw was some dirt fountains dissipating from near misses. Ah well, the crystal is funky, and there it is. If they ever do show a disruptor of any kind though, I'm hoping for the old "pile of ash" treatment. Don't tell me that wouldn't look cool.

Maybe I mistaked the dirt fountains dissipating for disintegration.

[Lucky]

For clarification, that does not violate conservation of energy as a Kyber crystal seems to. The greater than 100% efficiency is a reference frame issue. Simply looking at electrical input to photo output, yes it does have >100%, however, that extra energy is absorbed in the form of heat. So the extra light is generated by cooling the local environment as well as dissipating electrical potential.

Presumably a similar effect occurs with Kyber crystals. They appear to violate the laws of thermodynamics, but that's just because we aren't factoring in some energy source they draw from.

1) It's fiction so we could just throw real world physics out the window if we wanted to, and the real world doesn't always follow the law anyway.

2) The obvious source of energy would be the Force given Kyber Crystals seem to be naturally connected to it.

At the heart of every Jedi lighstaber is a kyber crystal harvested from the icebound caves of Ilum. This crystal is attuned to the Force, and connected to a Jedi Knight on a deeply personal level. In this way, a lightsaber is an extension of a Jedi's Force awareness. Because Jedi let the Force guide their selection of the crystal, the vibration that the crystal creates in the lightsaber blade helps Jedi center themselves and find balance in the Force. In this way, a Jedi can center his or her attention beyond the distractions of combat. A lightsaber crystal is colorless until first attuned and connected to a Jedi -- at which times it glows either blue or green, or in some rare instances, another shade. From that point on, it retains that hue.

An essential rite of passage for young Jedi is the Gathering. In the Gathering, younglings go to the frigid ice world Ilum, where they search for kyber crystals to build their first lightsabers. The crystals are located in the planet’s Crystal Cave, an intimidating maze, and “call out” to the Jedi they are in tune with. Once the correct crystal has been found, younglings rendezvous with Huyang, and ancient droid who chooses the parts necessary to build a lightsaber. With everything in place, younglings complete the ritual by constructing their Jedi weapons through a graceful use of the Force.

This would make some of Vader's statements about the power of the Force being greater then the Death Star's rather funny.

Then you have hyperspace which may be Force related as well.

[359]

1) It's fiction so we could just throw real world physics out the window if we wanted to, and the real world doesn't always follow the law anyway.

But we shouldn't throw out physics except when we have reason to, which we don't.

And furthermore, the real world always follows the law.

[2046]

If it appears not to, it is our own real-world ignorance of said law and its application.

This is the same concept I operate under for ST-v-SW.Net ... much to the dismay of some.

[Darth Spock]

1) It's fiction so we could just throw real world physics out the window if we wanted to, and the real world doesn't always follow the law anyway.

Hoohoo, yeah! I need that quote bronzed! Unfortunately it's true a lot of the time. Well, the first part anyway.

But we shouldn't throw out physics except when we have reason to, which we don't.

And furthermore, the real world always follows the law.

If it appears not to, it is our own real-world ignorance of said law and its application.

This is the same concept I operate under for ST-v-SW.Net ... much to the dismay of some.

Personally, I'd much rather find at least quasi-realistic explanations to things. But, like you said 2046, if something appears to defy real world physics, it's our understanding that is at fault.

I sometimes find the implications of vs. scenarios and crossovers funny in this regard though. If we begin cross-pollinating the franchises, sometimes, I think we are forced to change the in-universe rules of the respective franchises, let alone the rules of the real-world. Case in point, Star Wars would not normally come under criticism by real-world science for not having time travel. But cross it with any of a number of other sci-fi settings, including Trek, and its absence indicates a lack of understanding of that particular aspect of the physical universe. By the same token, in a crossover of Trek and Wars, would many of the mysterious "supernatural" aspects such as telepathy and more, actually be connected to the Force, indicating an ignorance of Midi-chlorians?

Some other things I wonder to be very similar, or even the same, assuming the two universes existed. Such as hyperspace and subspace. Not only are the names similar, if inverted, but the limited information given about them sounds rather similar as well.

[Lucky]

But we shouldn't throw out physics except when we have reason to, which we don't.

If a character says the technology is capable of X then it is most likely able to do it even if such a thing is impossible by known physics.

And furthermore, the real world always follows the law.

^_^ You have spontaneous creation of the universes from literally nothing, energy flowing from cold to hot, crushing things can make them expand, you can lower temperatures below absolute zero, and that's just a few real world things that come to mind. There's a ton of stuff that at least appears to give the classical laws of physics a raspberry. There must be a lot of quantum crooks on the run from the classical physics police, and those horrible escapees from the back-hole prisons. There are some rather large disconnects between theories like Relativity and Quantum Mechanics. ^_^

Now to be a touch more serious, things that our current understanding of physics say are impossible happen in fictional settings for any number of out of universe reasons, and you just have to except that those things are possible in that setting.

[359]

If a character says the technology is capable of X then it is most likely able to do it even if such a thing is impossible by known physics.

Yes, hence the except when we have reason to part of my statement. In this case we simply don't have reason to believe that the kyber crystal creates energy from nothing. There are other explanations, regardless of if it really matters at all...

You have spontaneous creation of the universes from literally nothing

We don't actually know too much about that for obvious reasons.

energy flowing from cold to hot

With active transport via methods other than heat.

crushing things can make them expand

So??? Molecular geometry.

you can lower temperatures below absolute zero

Mathematically as temperature is described as a relationship involving entropy and if the ratio is off of normal there are negative temperatures. These are still perceived as being warmer than 0 K and do contain more energy than 0 K.

So, no. The universe does always follow the rules. However we don't always know what all the rules are.

[2046]

I sometimes find the implications of vs. scenarios and crossovers funny in this regard though. If we begin cross-pollinating the franchises, sometimes, I think we are forced to change the in-universe rules of the respective franchises, let alone the rules of the real-world. Case in point, Star Wars would not normally come under criticism by real-world science for not having time travel. But cross it with any of a number of other sci-fi settings, including Trek, and its absence indicates a lack of understanding of that particular aspect of the physical universe. By the same token, in a crossover of Trek and Wars, would many of the mysterious "supernatural" aspects such as telepathy and more, actually be connected to the Force, indicating an ignorance of Midi-chlorians?

Temporal tomfoolery is not completely unknown in Star Wars ... The Son from Mortis was perfectly capable of displaying the distant future, considered by The Father to be a violation of "the laws of time". This is ironic, since knowing just a wee bit into the future (or, outside of racing and combat, further out but with little clarity) is perfectly normal Jedi behavior.

In any case, perhaps midichlorians are outside linear time ... indeed, if you wanna go crazy, ponder that the organisms Archer was infested with could have been them, and the Sphere Builders are Star Wars universe Force witches from Dathomir or similar.

All kidding aside, the capabilities provided by the Force are not unknown to the Federation. There is no great need to invoke midichlorians in the background of such cases in Trek, especially when Platonian kironide plus pituitary processing is explicitly involved in one case.

I would consider it like electricity ... you can generate it in myriad ways.

[Lucky]

Yes, hence the except when we have reason to part of my statement. In this case we simply don't have reason to believe that the kyber crystal creates energy from nothing. There are other explanations, regardless of if it really matters at all...

But you can get large amounts of energy from nothing, and nothing is still something...


For all we know the Kyber Crystals are naturally forming nearly perfect entangled quantum batteries. There are a lot of possibilities that don't even require fictional things, too many in fact.

We don't actually know too much about that for obvious reasons.

We see subatomic particles appears out of "nothing". We can measure it last I checked

With active transport via methods other than heat.

So??? Molecular geometry.

Mathematically as temperature is described as a relationship involving entropy and if the ratio is off of normal there are negative temperatures. These are still perceived as being warmer than 0 K and do contain more energy than 0 K.

So, no. The universe does always follow the rules. However we don't always know what all the rules are.

And yet people would say such things are impossible not a 100 years ago if not today. You just nod and except they can do it somehow because we have a very limited window into their world.

There are also things like entanglement that allow faster then light data transmission, and yet data can't be transmitted faster then light.

[359]

But you can get large amounts of energy from nothing, and nothing is still something...

Not really, you can get energy from many non-physical sources. But it always comes from somewhere in in reality.

And yet people would say such things are impossible not a 100 years ago if not today. You just nod and except they can do it somehow because we have a very limited window into their world.

Yes, but we also shouldn't simply assume any source or rule violation unless specified, which in this case it isn't. Really it doesn't matter where the energy comes from, it does it works and it do.

[Lucky]

Not really, you can get energy from many non-physical sources. But it always comes from somewhere in in reality.

Either you are forgetting about stuff like vacuum energy and virtual particles, or we're talking about totally different things.

Yes, but we also shouldn't simply assume any source or rule violation unless specified, which in this case it isn't. Really it doesn't matter where the energy comes from, it does it works and it do.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_energy