Impulse Supercruise

[2046]

Following on from another thread in which I mentioned my prejudice against FTL impulse speeds, I decided that good sense meant I should at least pause and reconsider that prejudice.

The most ready examples I found in a search for "FTL impulse" going back to 2008 point to "Best of Both Worlds", "Balance of Terror", and "Elaan Of Troyius".

I assume there are more. BoBW features the rapid trip to Earth from Saturn, of course, though I was under the impression this was explained via time dilation effects. I believe Mike calculated it at above .9c with dilation, meaning FTL is not required.

"Balance of Terror" features a ship whose power is said to be simple impulse, but that seems more like Scotty missing their singularity drive and only detecting their fusion reactors, or that they had warp drives powered by fusion rather than antimatter, et cetera.

"Elaan of Troyius" featured the Enterprise going at impulse between planets to give time for Elaan to be de-brat-ified, but other than that I don't recall any specific suggestion that the ship was moving at FTL velocities.

So what have I missed?

[Mr. Oragahn]

Although not supercruiser per se, perhaps the moving of Deep Space Nine? The principle seems the same, although the final overall speed was sluggish. A bit like the BoP in one of the earlier movies that leaves a trail in atmosphere. Fishy.
The idea is that if it works at a snail pace, why shouldn't it work much faster?

[359]

There are a number of issues with your alternate explanations to FTL in the first two examples.

First off, for TNG: "Best of Both Worlds" I'm not convinced time dilation actually explains away the speed sufficiently for several reasons. First, they are in pursuit of a Borg cube, and while in context of the couple lines, dilation does make some sense, in the context of the events it makes little sense.

When the Enterprise arrives in system we here this conversation:
Wesley: "Enterprise now approaching Terran system, sir."
Riker: "Slow to impulse. Time to intercept?"
Wesley: "Twenty-three minutes, fourteen seconds, sir."
And from that alone dilation makes some degree of sense, they are listing the time they will experience until they catch up with the cube. But in the greater context, listing ship time is only a little more than useless as they are trying to intercept the cube before it reaches Earth. And it is hardly beneficial to say we're going to be there in half an hour if it actually takes three and the party's over by the time you arrive. But that on its own is not strong enough a reason to give up on time dilation. However, we were also privy to a discussion taking place as the Borg arrived at the Terran system.
Shelby: "Captain, the Borg have entered Sector zero zero one."
"The Borg have dropped out of warp, sir. Jupiter outpost nine two reported visual contact at twelve hundred hours, thirteen minutes."
Riker: "Planetary defences?"
Shelby: "Responding. No reports on effectiveness but I can't believe that against the Borg"
Riker: "Ensign Crusher, at their current speed, when will they reach Earth?"
Wesley: "Twenty seven minutes."
Riker: "The soonest we could intercept?"
Wesley: "Forty two minutes, sir."
So, we know that the Borg are scheduled to arrive at Earth in twenty-seven minutes, with the Enterprise hot on their tails at forty-two minutes out. This is a difference of fifteen minutes that the Enterprise will take to arrive after the Borg have started to make themselves comfortable in Earth orbit.

So if we take the statement of intercept time as the Enterprise arrives to be objective time, rather than dilated. That puts the Borg at eight minutes from Earth having just passed Mars, with the Enterprise maintaining its fifteen minute gap at twenty-three-ish minutes out.

This lines up very well. And conversely, if we are to assume time dilation we would see a significantly longer time for the Borg cube to get to Earth. On the order of twenty-five additional minutes if we assume 0.95c for the Enterprise. This would require the Borg to have cruised through the solar system and past Mars in under two minutes (hey, that would have to be FTL), yet they will still take a further twenty-five minutes to reach Earth.

So to reiterate, assuming FTL impulse use creates this scenario:
1)Borg arrive in Terran system, they pass Jupiter.
––Borg: 27 minutes to Earth
––Enterprise: 42 minutes to intercept (at Earth)
2)Enterprise arrives in system, Borg pass Mars.
––Borg: 8 minutes to Earth
––Enterprise: 23-ish minutes to Earth
3)Borg arrive at Earth
4)Enterprise arrives at Earth

And to assume no FTL impulse would create this scenario:
1)Borg arrive in Terran system, they pass Jupiter.
––Borg: 27 minutes to Earth
––Enterprise: 42 minutes to intercept (at Earth)
2)Enterprise arrives in system, Borg pass Mars.
––Enterprise: 23 (dilated) minutes to Earth
––Borg: 25 (non-dilated) minutes to Earth
3)Borg arrive at Earth
4)Enterprise arrives at Earth

Borg traverse a vast distance in two minutes and then taking a leisurely 25 minute stroll to Earth from Mars. And, yes, in the second scenario it is assumed that the 42 is a hybrid warp-dilation time as it makes little sense for them to change measures for intercept mid flight, otherwise all insanity breaks loose and the whole premise is made silly anyway. And looking again at the change in the Borg's position from (1) to (2), they traveled a huge distance in only 2 minutes, at least as large as Earth's orbital radius from Jupiter to Mars. Light takes 7 or 8-ish minutes to get here from the Sun (a similar distance at the minimum), so the Borg would be traveling FTL anyway.

Either way you slice this, to make the numbers line up one ship or the other must be going faster than light. And since both ships are at impulse, there must be some FTL impulse action going on. Thus arguing time dilation makes little sense; so its more straight-forward to just say that the Enterprise's stated travel times are universal and hense FTL. So not only am I not convinced that FTL can be explained away by including time dilation, after having actually done the math, I am convinced it can not.

Now TOS: "Balance of Terror" should be a little quicker. They clearly are aware that the Romulan vessel is FTL-capable, and as such identify it as "simply impulse" clearly implying that impulse is, in fact, a possible FTL drive. This is regardless of if they are simply unaware of an alternate power source or not.

As for additional FTL impulse examples, there is DS9: "Blaze of Glory" in which a Jem'Hadar vessel is closing on a runabout at impulse at a rate of 0.2 AU/78 sec or 1.27c, and that's not even taking into account how fast the runabout is fleeing in addition to the closing speed.

And DS9: "A Time to Stand" in which it will take over 17 years to reach the nearest Federation star base at impulse speeds after loosing warp drive while destroying the Dominion's "main storage facility for ketracel-white in the Alpha Quadrant." Which is described as being "deep in Cardassian space" by admiral Ross.

[Picard]

Also, don't the various subspace phenomena impact both warp and impulse drive?

[2046]

I'll have to review the BoBW2 notes when I have more time.

As for "Blaze of Glory", the Badlands are huge and I would be willing to entertain notions of areas where low warp is usable.

"A Time to Stand" . . . I don't like the low value for "deep", but then 17 light-years would be a two day trip at 3000c, which per my thinking is a cruising speed on the higher side. Frankly, anything more than minutes/hours beyond the border would adequately constitute "deep", especially given the way Starfleet ships tended to disappear when patrolling the border.

And, of course, I've always gone with the notion of the BoT reference being to the powerplant, not the velocity.

Suffice it to say, if this whittles down to one and maybe two inviolable examples, then it's better to chalk it up to oopsies than something strange, in my view.

[359]

As for "Blaze of Glory", the Badlands are huge and I would be willing to entertain notions of areas where low warp is usable.

While that could very well be true, it does seem unlikely overall. But specifically in this case we are shown the runabout entering some of the nasty fiery bits with the firenados. A few seconds go by, then they're jumped by a pair of sharks. A bit and one cut later we see the Jem'Hadar ships circling again, still taking place in the nasty fiery bits with the firenados. In fact the first time since entering the badlands that we see any clear space is when they arrive at the maquis stronghold planet.

Furthermore, the method they use to escape the closing Jem'Hadar is to spiral around one of the plasma filaments, implying that they are in an active area. Very low likelihood of being warp friendly. Even more so the impulse engines are later stated to be active as they are being pursued the second time, further implying that no warp has been used.

"A Time to Stand" . . . I don't like the low value for "deep", but then 17 light-years would be a two day trip at 3000c, which per my thinking is a cruising speed on the higher side. Frankly, anything more than minutes/hours beyond the border would adequately constitute "deep", especially given the way Starfleet ships tended to disappear when patrolling the border.

That could be entirely true, I interpreted it as somewhat further, but that truly is a subjective interpretation.

And, of course, I've always gone with the notion of the BoT reference being to the powerplant, not the velocity.

Since impulse is a drive system, which happens to be powered by massive fusion plants, it would make little sense to say something is impulse powered in reference to the generation technology rather than propulsion method. Especially with the following line specifying it as a reference to propulsion method:
Kirk: "Yes, well gentlemen, the question still remains. Can we engage them with a reasonable possibility of victory?"
Scotty: "No question. Their power is simple impulse."
Kirk: "Meaning we can outrun them?"

Suffice it to say, if this whittles down to one and maybe two inviolable examples, then it's better to chalk it up to oopsies than something strange, in my view.

I never thought of it as a strange or outlandish concept, just an uncontested bound (except for the really low contestants which contradict everything else as well). I never seriously tried to explain it either, sure subspace and some such, but that would just become part of the advanced impulse drive they utilize. Nothing super extra fancy. To me it is an idea along the same lines of how they often appear to achieve near c velocity without noticeable time-dilation, it doesn't make sense in reality, but what in Star Trek does?

And I have this nagging suspicion that I have forgotten a couple instances I once measured, especially one from TOS...

[2046]

Regarding "Blaze..." . . .

The runabout is seen in the fire fields of the Badlands and soon the bugs are reportedly closing from an AU away. The spiral course thing happens when the bugs are at 0.7 AU . . . we don't see the bugs. Then a commercial break happens and after the coin conversation the bugs are seen in the fire fields and reported as being at half an AU and closing.

They fire on the runabout two minutes later, apparently from beyond visual range given the impulse whatever detonation effect and timing.

1. The Badlands do have weird firenadoes and other stuff, but areas of the Badlands look boring, too. I have no problem with warp drive there.

2. We don't know how big the fire field area was, but we do know that an impulse flight through the fire field lasting no longer than the episode got them to a clearing with a star and planet.

It seems entirely possible that the bugs could've been outside the fire field when closing from 1 to 0.7 AU, and within the field when we see them at half an AU. After all, when we see the planet from a distance of perhaps dozens to low hundreds of thousands of kilometers, the fire field is dissipating in its direction . . . that is to say, the fire fields have a fairly sharp boundary, astronomically-speaking.

So this example is not a proof of impulse supercruise without assumptions I do not find necessary.

Regarding BoT, "their power is simple impulse" and "so we can outrun them?" fit together as a limitation of the powerplant (which would itself limit the top speed, as Kirk's question seems designed to confirm).

Given that they obviously had FTL, and that generally speaking FTL involves warp, and that warp drive was in use on Romulan ships before and since, to argue otherwise is to assume what you seek to prove . . . as such, I cannot accept that as an example, either.

Put simply, it seems Scotty missed the singularity somehow, presumably due to effects of the cloak or the high energy weapons or the relayed sensor data being wrong, et cetera.

The flipside of all of this is finding examples of warp flight that feature subwarp velocities . . . I believe the warp strafing of "Elaan of Troyius" featured some range callouts that are changing too slowly, and other episodes have the same problem as I recall (e.g. we'll drop out of warp in 100,000 kilometers . . . in like 10 seconds.)

The question is whether we then declare sub-FTL warp also, thus really screwing the pooch between the two (because then we'll never be able to say with any certainty what's going on), or whether we accept that these people occasionally make boo-boos.

I mean, a significant number of examples either way would do the trick and make it un-arguable, but I don't see that yet.

[Lucky]

Following on from another thread in which I mentioned my prejudice against FTL impulse speeds, I decided that good sense meant I should at least pause and reconsider that prejudice.

The most ready examples I found in a search for "FTL impulse" going back to 2008 point to "Best of Both Worlds", "Balance of Terror", and "Elaan Of Troyius".

I assume there are more. BoBW features the rapid trip to Earth from Saturn, of course, though I was under the impression this was explained via time dilation effects. I believe Mike calculated it at above .9c with dilation, meaning FTL is not required.

"Balance of Terror" features a ship whose power is said to be simple impulse, but that seems more like Scotty missing their singularity drive and only detecting their fusion reactors, or that they had warp drives powered by fusion rather than antimatter, et cetera.

"Elaan of Troyius" featured the Enterprise going at impulse between planets to give time for Elaan to be de-brat-ified, but other than that I don't recall any specific suggestion that the ship was moving at FTL velocities.

So what have I missed?

What evidence do you have that there is this time dilation you claim? They talk about breaking a time barrier in TOS, and Voyager shows ships have temporal shielding is standard in Year of hell. We know warp fields surround the ships so long as the warp drive is powered, but said fields don't seem to be used for propulsion at all times.

Heres some seemingly implied impulse FTl.
1xo1
Where no man has gone before
Captain's log, Star date 1312.9. Ship's condition, heading back on impulse power only. Main engines burned out. The ship's space warp ability gone. Earth bases which were only days away are now years in the distance. Our overriding question now is what destroyed the Valiant? They lived through the barrier, just as we have. What happened to them after that?

TOS
2x06
The doomsday machine
SPOCK: Energy output zero. Radiation level normal. 
(Kirk runs in.) 


SPOCK: Welcome aboard, Captain. Sensors show all energy sources deactivated. It's quite dead. 


KIRK: Mister Sulu, ease us back to minimum headway. Conserve power as much as possible. Lieutenant Palmer, tell Mister Scott to expedite repairs on the warp drive. Poor Matt. He gave his life in an attempt to save others. Not the worst way to go. 


SPOCK: Indeed, Captain. I presume your log will show that Commodore Decker died in the line of duty.

KIRK: Indeed it shall, Mister Spock. Ironic, isn't it? Way back in the 20th century, the H-Bomb was the ultimate weapon, their doomsday machine, and we used something like it to destroy another doomsday machine. Probably the first time such a weapon has ever been used for constructive purposes. 


SPOCK: Appropriate, Captain. However, I can't help wondering if there are any more of those weapons wandering around the universe. 


KIRK: Well, I certainly hope not. I found one quite sufficient.

[Lucky]

Also, don't the various subspace phenomena impact both warp and impulse drive?

That seems irrelevant to the topic, but TNG: Force of Nature would seem to imply that Impulse Drives are not sensitive to subspace like Warp Drives are.

[Picard]

Also, don't the various subspace phenomena impact both warp and impulse drive?

That seems irrelevant to the topic, but TNG: Force of Nature would seem to imply that Impulse Drives are not sensitive to subspace like Warp Drives are.

Then it would imply that impulse is not FTL, or at very least that time dilation should be accounted for?

[359]

TNG: "Force of Nature":

Riker: "Fleming on long range sensors, approximately zero point three light years away."
Picard: "What's their condition?"
Riker: "The vessel appears to be intact. They have shields, but it looks like their subspace systems are out."
Picard: "Very well."
...
LaForge: "Captain, the engines are back online. All systems are ready."
Picard: "Very good. Helm, lay in a course for the Fleming."
Helm: "Aye, sir."
Riker: "They appear to be in pretty good condition. According to our sensors their shields back to full strength."
Worf: "Captain, the Hekaran ship is moving off. There is one person on board. It is Serova. "
Picard: "Doctor, what is going on?"
Rabal: "I don't know. Captain, may I speak to her?"
Picard: "Mister Worf, open a channel."
Rabal: "Serova, what are you trying to do?"
Serova: "They wanted proof. I'm going to give it to them. I'm sorry."
Data: "Captain, the Hekaran ship's engines are beginning to overload. I believe Serova's attempting to create a warp core breach."
Rabal: "No!"
Riker: "Prepare for impact. Shields at maximum. Full reverse."
Picard: "Report!"
Data: We have cleared the shock wave. However, tetryon flux in the area is increasing rapidly."
...
Data: "I suggest we coast into the rift."
Riker: "Coast?"
Data: "We can initiate a brief, high intensity warp pulse from our current position. We should be able to attain sufficient velocity to enter the rift, beam the crew off the Fleming and exit without using our warp engines."
Riker: "All right, let's say we initiate a full power warp pulse. How much time do we need to drop out of warp?"
Data: "If we field saturate the nacelles, we should be able to sustain warp speed for approximately two minutes."
Riker: "That doesn't give us much time, and it could get pretty rough in there."
Data: "The timing will be critical."
Picard: "Begin your calculations, Mister Data. We'll go as soon as you're ready."
Data: "Aye, sir."

So by 'cheating' they did maintain warp scale FTL velocities through the rupture to a position over 0.3 light-years distant. At impulse the same trip is said to take "weeks," however even at 1 c the journey would take around four months. Which still could be covered under STL if one were to stretch the use of "weeks." So there is a near c and possibly FTL impulse reference within the episode. And they never stated that warp would not function within the rupture, just that the intensity of warp energy generated by the main engines would cause significant further damage. Presumably, if impulse is subspace driven, it would generate far less of an effect. Or alternately it has a subspace component but can still function without it, albeit with reduced performance.

Then it would imply that impulse is not FTL, or at very least that time dilation should be accounted for?

Time dilation within the context of the episode is moot as they are measuring against an external and objective reference, the time until the transport's shields will fail. And in the case of "Best of Both Worlds" it is not possible given how the time intervals must line up.

Regarding "Blaze..." . . .

The runabout is seen in the fire fields of the Badlands and soon the bugs are reportedly closing from an AU away. The spiral course thing happens when the bugs are at 0.7 AU . . . we don't see the bugs. Then a commercial break happens and after the coin conversation the bugs are seen in the fire fields and reported as being at half an AU and closing.

They fire on the runabout two minutes later, apparently from beyond visual range given the impulse whatever detonation effect and timing.

The runabout is first confirmed to be in the plasma fields, the Jem'Hadar are noticed and begin closing at a rate of about 1.3c (difference in their speeds, actual velocities are higher).
The runabout attempts evasion by spiraling around one of the plasma filament firenado things, they are still in the plasma field.
Commercial break.
The same Jem'Hadar reappear, seen to be in the plasma fields.
Seconds later they are stated to be 0.5 au away and closing.
Sisko and Eddington discuss plan B, runabout is confirmed to be running on impulse engines and is in the plasma field, 32 seconds later Jem'Hadar are 0.4 au away for a closing speed of 1.6 c.
Sisko begins modifications and the runabout runs into a gas pocket and again into something else.
Jem'Hadar open fire.
Eddington fires up the impulse engines.
Jem'Hadar are hit by a big blast, still inside plasma field.

So both instances are bracketed by ships being confirmed to be inside the no warp zones, the second even more so than the first. And both instances are definitely FTL events. And the second event has no possibility of including warp travel as the impulse engines had no opportunity to be shut down hence the need for such a risky active recalibration. So yes, this event is in fact a solid example of FTL impulse velocities.

1. The Badlands do have weird firenadoes and other stuff, but areas of the Badlands look boring, too. I have no problem with warp drive there.

Such areas definitely do exist, as we see around the maquis planet. But it is highly unlikely that such areas were passed in the 32 and 78 second events, especially the second in which all ships are confirmed to be in the plasma storms before, during, and after the chase.

2. We don't know how big the fire field area was, but we do know that an impulse flight through the fire field lasting no longer than the episode got them to a clearing with a star and planet.

It seems entirely possible that the bugs could've been outside the fire field when closing from 1 to 0.7 AU, and within the field when we see them at half an AU. After all, when we see the planet from a distance of perhaps dozens to low hundreds of thousands of kilometers, the fire field is dissipating in its direction . . . that is to say, the fire fields have a fairly sharp boundary, astronomically-speaking.

This is quite possible for the first event, although I would say it is heavily implied to not be the case within the episode.

Regarding BoT, "their power is simple impulse" and "so we can outrun them?" fit together as a limitation of the powerplant (which would itself limit the top speed, as Kirk's question seems designed to confirm).

Given that they obviously had FTL, and that generally speaking FTL involves warp, and that warp drive was in use on Romulan ships before and since, to argue otherwise is to assume what you seek to prove . . . as such, I cannot accept that as an example, either.

Put simply, it seems Scotty missed the singularity somehow, presumably due to effects of the cloak or the high energy weapons or the relayed sensor data being wrong, et cetera.

And modern space ships are lifted into orbit under the power of simple rockets. This is a statement about the propulsion method, nothing is mentioned of the power source be it burning liquid hydrogen-oxygen, antimatter, fusion, singularities, or puppies and kittens. The fact is we are given a comparison between impulse and warp, and warp is faster. But it has nothing to do with the power generation method, their impulse drive could be powered by a singularity for all we know instead of the Federation's fusion reactor setup. I see what you are getting at, but were scotty referring to the power plant driving the propulsion he would have said so by stating a generation method and not a propulsion method.

This also fits with the idea that they don't know what powers the ship, they can't talk about that so scotty comments on a direct observation, the ship runs solely on impulse engines. They already know that the Romulans have more powerful weapon systems so the next logical approach is propulsion, what speed and maneuverability can they bring to the table. Answer: impulse maneuvers, with their impulse only drive system. Why they only have impulse? No idea, nor does it matter; insert some technobabble reason here.

Actually, thinking about it some more, its probably not singularity power as the Romulans state they have a limited supply of some kind of fuel on board.

The flipside of all of this is finding examples of warp flight that feature subwarp velocities . . . I believe the warp strafing of "Elaan of Troyius" featured some range callouts that are changing too slowly, and other episodes have the same problem as I recall (e.g. we'll drop out of warp in 100,000 kilometers . . . in like 10 seconds.)

The question is whether we then declare sub-FTL warp also, thus really screwing the pooch between the two (because then we'll never be able to say with any certainty what's going on), or whether we accept that these people occasionally make boo-boos.

Another example is in "Star Trek: The Motion Picture" around the wormhole scene. Warp 0.8 is used to describe their velocity following a reduction in speed to sub-light from warp one.

[2046]

A little short on time but wanted to hit the "Blaze" point . . . yessir, you indeed have the moneyshot there. I missed the point-four AU thing somehow, and it is indeed 1.56c.

Barring Picard-maneuver-esque warp hops and any other such silliness, then that is a solid example of impulse supercruise.

Still, though . . . if you'll forgive me for saying so . . . I don't find it a terribly exciting example. It's easily chalked up to a well-edited conversation or a very imprecise "half an AU". That is to say, were the conversation a mere 18 seconds longer, it'd be barely-sublight. Or, if Sisko was declaring half an AU but it was really .464 AU at the time and he was rounding (much as you did to get to 1.6c), then it was also barely-sublight.

But as it stands, it is a demonstrable example, so kudoes there. I'm not ready to toss out the general rule that impulse is sublight on one event, but you did prove the case on that example.

[Lucky]

PARIS: The Antarian Trans-Stellar Rally. Three segments covering two point three billion kilometres.

KIM: With obstacles ranging from dwarf star clusters to K class anomalies.

PARIS: Two man crews and most importantly, each ship is limited to sub-light speeds. It is the ultimate test of ship design and piloting skills

TUVOK: Not to mention a serious drain on Voyager's resources. You're suggesting we reassign fifteen crewmen to modify the Delta Flyer.

PARIS: The race has very specific guidelines.

CHAKOTAY: All the ships have to use enriched deuterium fuel. The Delta Flyer's not equipped for that.

KIM: Irina agreed to lend us a fuel converter.

PARIS: Captain, this race is more than just a sporting event. Until recently this region was a war zone. Four different species fought for nearly a century to control it.

If Warp Drives are the only faster then light drive, then why phase the guidelines in such a way? Why not simply say no Warp Drives?