Starfleet Jedi

Pt. I and preface: http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... f=8&t=6592

II. Starships and Spacecraft

A. Asteroid Popping

1. TESB

Despite the gasoline asteroids and other oddities, some try to wank out the asteroid popping scene into biggatons against the highest-size asteroids they can wank by declaring . . . what are we up to, now, FTL vaporization? I lose track.

2. AotC

a. Similarly, there's an effort to embiggen the asteroids that Jango fractured with blaster bolts in AotC when chasing Kenobi by fantasizing about dimensional orientation with the fighters.

b. In the case of Brian Young, he actually generates vaporized asteroids out of thin airlessness by ignoring the concept of flak bursts and counting the first frame of the same as the size of the asteroid. (That'd be like taking the big huge circles of the phaser proximity detonations from "Balance of Terror" and declaring those space debris being hit and vaped.)

Verdict: Turning, shoot it quickly. The TESB asteroid popping scene, taken in and of itself, isn't that bad, and even some of the early wank figures are acceptable. But nowadays the attempts to squeeze even more yield out of them are just getting absurd.

B. Acceleration to Orbit

I've only recently come to realize how important the acceleration argument is for the inflationists. I'd heard it before but dismissed it as silly and not important, but I was wrong about the latter. Per Brian Young's ICS videos, acceleration of ships to orbit is a canon lynchpin for the ICS claims. I already have some work in progress on this point, basically taking each acceleration example provided and pointing out the absurdity of ignoring the actual passage of time, among other things, like:

1. Flawed Methodology

If you do their methodology properly, you actually end up with ships going from planetside to orbit in the space of one frame, or the space between frames if you want to get picky . . . and that's acceleration to orbit followed by deceleration to drop down to the piddly velocities observed in orbit.

Verdict: Walking dead, needs headshot

C. Guns & Ammo

1. There's the claim that the guns must be powered by the ship's power, ignoring the turbine generators and ammunition needs.

2. Some still try to claim that turbolasers are massless particles.

Verdict: More of a dragging-along-the-ground dead, but headshot still recommended.

Adding:

D. Seismic Charge

This is actually a bit of high tech, but so unique as to be almost useless. We've never seen it used in combat or any other time since. However, it can be latched on to as a hook to try to aim for higher and higher yields.

Verdict: Walking dead

E. Jedi Crash

The poorly scaled solar encounter is being used to claim biggatons of resilience.

. . . I feel sure there's more but I'm forgetting right now.

2046 wrote:II. Starships and Spacecraft

A. Asteroid Popping

B. Acceleration to Orbit

I've only recently come to realize how important the acceleration argument is for the inflationists. I'd heard it before but dismissed it as silly and not important, but I was wrong about the latter. Per Brian Young's ICS videos, acceleration of ships to orbit is a canon lynchpin for the ICS claims. I already have some work in progress on this point, basically taking each acceleration example provided and pointing out the absurdity of ignoring the actual passage of time, among other things, like:

1. Flawed Methodology

If you do their methodology properly, you actually end up with ships going from planetside to orbit in the space of one frame, or the space between frames if you want to get picky . . . and that's acceleration to orbit followed by deceleration to drop down to the piddly velocities observed in orbit.

C. Guns & Ammo

1. There's the claim that the guns must be powered by the ship's power, ignoring the turbine generators and ammunition needs.

2. Some still try to claim that turbolasers are massless particles.

Why is there nothing for asteroid popping?

Because I posted that in the middle of the night and fell asleep during the composition more than once. I actually just got on here to see what the devil I posted.

In the scene where the small asteroid hit the large one it was moving no more than 20 m/s when it impacted and caused the same effect as the turbolaser hit.

Assuming it was a one meter sphere it has a volume of 0.52 m^3 which with the density of iron (although the density is probably lower) would give a mass of 7870 kilograms.

That means it's energy is 1/2(7870)20^2=1.574 megajoules.

So it only takes about 1.574 megajoules to "ignite" the asteroids, so that's the highest number that can be claimed for the turbo laser hit.

The seismic mine is only relevant against very large targets, when for example trying evade a star destroyer. The timer fuse seems to conveniently fit the kind of durations needed in the pursuit in TESB for example. Imagine the Falcon dropping those babies in front of that star destroyer. BANG! :)

It is a powerful device, but already two calculations on Spacebattles once proved that the energy imparted to the asteroids wasn't huge per se, many years ago (I believe we have all the links on this board, just need to find the right thread). The device might grab its energy from some place else, and guess what? It makes a planar ring... if this were hyperspace related I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest.
I also posted images around 2007~2008 which demonstrated that against the smallest asteroids, the energy imparted was so low that if didn't even melt them. The ring simply sliced through them. Plus the larger asteroids are nothing more than old agregates or particles. When two large chunks collide, you seem them produce a ton of dust.
Only when there's more friction because of more mass, the ring does heat up the material to the point the rock glows.

F. ISD can destroy a small town

Some warsies try to claim that when that a small town in star wars is the size of states, to countries, to large portions of continents to give Star Wars biggatons by using Coruscant which is uncommonly large.

The largest size that could really be claimed is probably around New York City-size if we were to estimate what a small town would be for the Galactic Empire/Republic.

Yes, and I believe that "small town" description was by an omnipotent narrator, which would then translate into a "small town" for whatever country writer is from.

And as demonstrated in ANH onward, a small town can be like Mos Eisley or Mos Espa on Tatooine, and no where else, except the now defunct EU, are there any ecumenopolis like Coruscant. So the real-world definitions are still in play here, no matter what the inflationists say, and the upcoming movies and TV series will likely never show us any city-covered planets outside of Coruscants.

Actually, now that I think of it, the SW canon reset really just brought the debate back to where it was in the 1990s, only with no EU, and only the movies and the recent TCW and Rebels series to work with.
-Mike

theta_pinch wrote:In the scene where the small asteroid hit the large one it was moving no more than 20 m/s when it impacted and caused the same effect as the turbolaser hit.

Assuming it was a one meter sphere it has a volume of 0.52 m^3 which with the density of iron (although the density is probably lower) would give a mass of 7870 kilograms.

That means it's energy is 1/2(7870)20^2=1.574 megajoules.

So it only takes about 1.574 megajoules to "ignite" the asteroids, so that's the highest number that can be claimed for the turbo laser hit.

First off, which small asteroid colliding with a larger one are you talking about here? Are you referring to the tiny one that slowly bumps into the 80-100 meter one that the Falcon flies around at the beginning of the asteroid field chase? Because I know of that and at least two more collisions that occur during the whole thing.

Also I have to disagree with the conclusion that the turbolasers are that low since the asteroids hit in the infamous "ISD popping asteroids scene" are much larger than that, and would require more energy to ignite than the little itty bitty one would as a 5 meter asteroid, for example, would be 64 times larger than the one in the cited collision scene. Also, to be fair, there is a turbolaser bolt that is seen clipping a very small asteroid (or one that is very close to the ISD) that causes the asteroid to be destroyed completely, but the bolt keeps right on going without any obvious signs of degradation. So we can say that some turbolasers are only strong enough that they would expend their entire energy on asteroids of a few meters wide, while others do not.
-Mike

Mike DiCenso wrote:

theta_pinch wrote:In the scene where the small asteroid hit the large one it was moving no more than 20 m/s when it impacted and caused the same effect as the turbolaser hit.

Assuming it was a one meter sphere it has a volume of 0.52 m^3 which with the density of iron (although the density is probably lower) would give a mass of 7870 kilograms.

That means it's energy is 1/2(7870)20^2=1.574 megajoules.

So it only takes about 1.574 megajoules to "ignite" the asteroids, so that's the highest number that can be claimed for the turbo laser hit.

First off, which small asteroid colliding with a larger one are you talking about here? Are you referring to the tiny one that slowly bumps into the 80-100 meter one that the Falcon flies around at the beginning of the asteroid field chase? Because I know of that and at least two more collisions that occur during the whole thing.

Also I have to disagree with the conclusion that the turbolasers are that low since the asteroids hit in the infamous "ISD popping asteroids scene" are much larger than that, and would require more energy to ignite than the little itty bitty one would as a 5 meter asteroid, for example, would be 64 times larger than the one in the cited collision scene. Also, to be fair, there is a turbolaser bolt that is seen clipping a very small asteroid (or one that is very close to the ISD) that causes the asteroid to be destroyed completely, but the bolt keeps right on going without any obvious signs of degradation. So we can say that some turbolasers are only strong enough that they would expend their entire energy on asteroids of a few meters wide, while others do not.
-Mike

It was the falcon asteroid. In light of new evidence that the asteroids the turbolasers destroyed were larger I am revising my estimate to low gigajoules to low terajoules.

theta_pinch wrote: F. ISD can destroy a small town

Some warsies try to claim that when that a small town in star wars is the size of states, to countries, to large portions of continents to give Star Wars biggatons by using Coruscant which is uncommonly large.

The largest size that could really be claimed is probably around New York City-size if we were to estimate what a small town would be for the Galactic Empire/Republic.

Those aren't small towns. Those are large cities you are talking about.

In Star Wars a small town can be a bunch of grass/mud huts for a species that barely reach the height of a clone trooper's nee.

Really using something like what you see on Tatooine or a city like we see on Naboo is the most honest thing to do.