Zombie Inflationism I: Death Star Arguments

[2046]

The "Zombie Inflationism" series refers to the fact that inflationism is dead right now. There's hope yet for the inflationists, as I've noted, that the wide open field for the new canon will allow for inflationist nonsense to return, but as it stands at this moment, inflationism just doesn't fly.

That said, there are twitches and hair growth and other autonomic events still occurring, and so it behooves Star Wars tech realists to keep an eye on the corpse and make sure it doesn't rise up and start trying to eat our brains. With that, and not inflationist teeth, in our minds, let's ponder some of the areas in which the inflationists hope to reanimate themselves based on canon evidence.

The goal here is to discuss these arguments (and any others that I might've missed) and ponder or repost counterarguments.

Pt. II: Starships and Spacecraft
http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... f=8&t=6593

Pt. III: Other Weapons
http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... f=8&t=6594

I. The Death Star

The Death Stars always have been and always will be the king of the Vs. Debate. Enormous battlestations with the power to destroy fleets and planets, these monstrosities are remarkable enough without becoming the subject of legends. However, there are legends associated with them.

A. Dodonna's Quote

Some are still trying to use Dodonna's half the fleet quote to prove super-powerful capital ship weaponry, under the theory that the superlaser counts. The novelization's "dense concentration of firepower" line pretty much kills this one dead, so far as I can tell. Even Brian Young, who at least cherry-picks from the novelizations, talks about Dodonna's lines in the novelization but skips that part completely.

Verdict: DOA, still not moving

B. The Shield Argument

(i.e. that the DS shield had to have withstood massive KE)

1. Note that the Death Star shield could not even withstand the kinetic energy of X-Wings or even their blaster bolts, so the concept that it would somehow repel large fast-moving chunks of planet smells of nonsense. (Does earth's magnetic field really deflect anything other than solar farts? Does it cause significant deflection of satellites/probes?)

2. There's also the conceit in this claim that the shield power requirements are equivalent to their effect . . . that is to say, the idea is that the shields must be powerful enough to do the work claimed for them, rather than acting like a wall or a magnetic field.

3. For those who reject the Superlaser Effect, make note of the fact that the beam and the blast zone, in non-superlaser-effect thinking, might ought to prevent some of that debris from heading toward the Death Star, since presumably the Death Star fired dead-on into Alderaan. Think of shaped charges, if you will.

4. Note that the Superlaser Effect would remove much of the possible debris. For instance, there is the calculation I've seen recently where someone posited 10.98 billion or trillion chunks of debris, but the actual visual shows nothing like that. Also note the remnant debris the Falcon comes into, small and cool and slow.

Verdict: Cool, but not as close to room-temperature as I would like, in the sense that the argument could be made that something might've headed for the Death Star.

C. Scaling Down from the Death Star

1. Different technology.

2. Exactly how are they scaling down, again? Reactor size? What about all that barrel scaling they used to do?

Verdict: This scaling stuff is nonsense, of course, but needs a cogent, unified counterargument beyond merely pointing to the canon and asking where the biggatons are. Okay, well, maybe it doesn't need one, 'cause the lack of biggatons works, but it'd be nice anyway.

[Lucky]

I. The Death Star

The Death Stars always have been and always will be the king of the Vs. Debate. Enormous battlestations with the power to destroy fleets and planets, these monstrosities are remarkable enough without becoming the subject of legends. However, there are legends associated with them.

A. Dodonna's Quote

Some are still trying to use Dodonna's half the fleet quote to prove super-powerful capital ship weaponry, under the theory that the superlaser counts. The novelization's "dense concentration of firepower" line pretty much kills this one dead, so far as I can tell. Even Brian Young, who at least cherry-picks from the novelizations, talks about Dodonna's lines in the novelization but skips that part completely.

Verdict: DOA, still not moving

B. The Shield Argument

(i.e. that the DS shield had to have withstood massive KE)

1. Note that the Death Star shield could not even withstand the kinetic energy of X-Wings or even their blaster bolts, so the concept that it would somehow repel large fast-moving chunks of planet smells of nonsense. (Does earth's magnetic field really deflect anything other than solar farts? Does it cause significant deflection of satellites/probes?)

2. There's also the conceit in this claim that the shield power requirements are equivalent to their effect . . . that is to say, the idea is that the shields must be powerful enough to do the work claimed for them, rather than acting like a wall or a magnetic field.

3. For those who reject the Superlaser Effect, make note of the fact that the beam and the blast zone, in non-superlaser-effect thinking, might ought to prevent some of that debris from heading toward the Death Star, since presumably the Death Star fired dead-on into Alderaan. Think of shaped charges, if you will.

4. Note that the Superlaser Effect would remove much of the possible debris. For instance, there is the calculation I've seen recently where someone posited 10.98 billion or trillion chunks of debris, but the actual visual shows nothing like that. Also note the remnant debris the Falcon comes into, small and cool and slow.

Verdict: Cool, but not as close to room-temperature as I would like, in the sense that the argument could be made that something might've headed for the Death Star.

C. Scaling Down from the Death Star

1. Different technology.

2. Exactly how are they scaling down, again? Reactor size? What about all that barrel scaling they used to do?

Verdict: This scaling stuff is nonsense, of course, but needs a cogent, unified counterargument beyond merely pointing to the canon and asking where the biggatons are. Okay, well, maybe it doesn't need one, 'cause the lack of biggatons works, but it'd be nice anyway.

1) How do you get any numbers from Dodonna's statement about the Death Star having a firepower of half the Imperial fleet? Without the EU there are no numbers for fleet size, and we have no idea if parasite craft are included much like aircraft carriers.

2) Ignoring the fact we never see any sign the Death Star was hit by peaces of Alderaan, and we have reason to think Alderaan stayed in orbit, the Death Star shield calculations I've seen always ignore the fact that the surface of the Death Star was covered with lots of deflector towers which changes things greatly.

[Mr. Oragahn]

A physical principle of compression of fluids applied to shielding might have the slowest elements manage to enter the shield while fast ones crash into it. Especially if the shield is a magnetic field that also contains an invisible thick medium of invisible particles.
The shield seemed to extend well beyond the station's surface, so laser bolts exchanged between fighters and the towers and other gun emplacements would be beneath that canopy.
There's also the possibility that in order to save energy, the operators boost the shield at the last moment. Like in TESB with the star destroyer and the Falcon. We see that said shield didn't prevent the Falcon from neatly stickying herself to the bridge's hull.
Still, in the end, that's very conjectural.


Has anyone calculated the energy needed to accelerate that big ball of doom though?
(assuming the reactors provide the energy and not local fission/fusion thrusters or else)

[2046]

I didn't think there was any evidence it even had sublight engines, though I admit it's been awhile since I pondered it.

The DS2 was capable of rotation, and it would make sense for the DS1 to be able to do the same. But that could be a big honkin' gyro somewhere inside.

The use of orbital mechanics would seem to suggest that the DS1 was not behaving like we'd expect of a powered starship.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Yes. Hence the station in battle station? Like, erm, stationnary. A huge defense platform.
Makes it sound like the superlaser was a last minute thought (although it was not).

[theta_pinch]

The "Zombie Inflationism" series refers to the fact that inflationism is dead right now. There's hope yet for the inflationists, as I've noted, that the wide open field for the new canon will allow for inflationist nonsense to return, but as it stands at this moment, inflationism just doesn't fly.

That said, there are twitches and hair growth and other autonomic events still occurring, and so it behooves Star Wars tech realists to keep an eye on the corpse and make sure it doesn't rise up and start trying to eat our brains. With that, and not inflationist teeth, in our minds, let's ponder some of the areas in which the inflationists hope to reanimate themselves based on canon evidence.

The goal here is to discuss these arguments (and any others that I might've missed) and ponder or repost counterarguments.

Pt. II: Starships and Spacecraft
http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... f=8&t=6593

Pt. III: Other Weapons
http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... f=8&t=6594

I. The Death Star

The Death Stars always have been and always will be the king of the Vs. Debate. Enormous battlestations with the power to destroy fleets and planets, these monstrosities are remarkable enough without becoming the subject of legends. However, there are legends associated with them.

A. Dodonna's Quote

Some are still trying to use Dodonna's half the fleet quote to prove super-powerful capital ship weaponry, under the theory that the superlaser counts. The novelization's "dense concentration of firepower" line pretty much kills this one dead, so far as I can tell. Even Brian Young, who at least cherry-picks from the novelizations, talks about Dodonna's lines in the novelization but skips that part completely.

Verdict: DOA, still not moving

B. The Shield Argument

(i.e. that the DS shield had to have withstood massive KE)

1. Note that the Death Star shield could not even withstand the kinetic energy of X-Wings or even their blaster bolts, so the concept that it would somehow repel large fast-moving chunks of planet smells of nonsense. (Does earth's magnetic field really deflect anything other than solar farts? Does it cause significant deflection of satellites/probes?)

2. There's also the conceit in this claim that the shield power requirements are equivalent to their effect . . . that is to say, the idea is that the shields must be powerful enough to do the work claimed for them, rather than acting like a wall or a magnetic field.

3. For those who reject the Superlaser Effect, make note of the fact that the beam and the blast zone, in non-superlaser-effect thinking, might ought to prevent some of that debris from heading toward the Death Star, since presumably the Death Star fired dead-on into Alderaan. Think of shaped charges, if you will.

4. Note that the Superlaser Effect would remove much of the possible debris. For instance, there is the calculation I've seen recently where someone posited 10.98 billion or trillion chunks of debris, but the actual visual shows nothing like that. Also note the remnant debris the Falcon comes into, small and cool and slow.

Verdict: Cool, but not as close to room-temperature as I would like, in the sense that the argument could be made that something might've headed for the Death Star.

C. Scaling Down from the Death Star

1. Different technology.

2. Exactly how are they scaling down, again? Reactor size? What about all that barrel scaling they used to do?

Verdict: This scaling stuff is nonsense, of course, but needs a cogent, unified counterargument beyond merely pointing to the canon and asking where the biggatons are. Okay, well, maybe it doesn't need one, 'cause the lack of biggatons works, but it'd be nice anyway.

A counter argument for scaling down from the Death star using 10E38 joules:
10E38 joules=1.11265e+22kilograms or slightly less then the mass of pluto. So whenever the Death Star fires it's superlaser, it's the equivalent of ejecting a small planet at high velocity, which creates an enormous force in the opposite direction. The Death Star should be pushed back quite a bit from the counter-force yet the Death Star doesn't move at all. "Neutrino radiators" that have been used to explain away the lack of recoil when firing supposedly gigaton scale weapons in the past fail because then it becomes the equivalent of getting hit on both sides with minor planets, crushing the death star. If someone attempts to refute it by suggesting that the particles that make up the beam are massless, they get stopped by massless particles having to travel at the speed of light according to special relativity, and the superlaser doesn't.

[2046]

Ah yes, thanks for reminding me of that one.

Any such inertia argument is nullified by the Superlaser Effect argument. In other words, that claim only applies if the superlaser is a raw laser or particle beam delivering the energy via direct energy transfer.

Even without that, though, one can possibly point to the seeming lack of recoil of other beam-based weapons. Where, for example, is the lateral kick on the LAAT/i gunships when they fire their side-mounted doodads?

Of course, then they'd probably want to counter that it's just a huge LAAT/i gun, which does not follow the rest of the evidence.

[Mr. Oragahn]

The "Zombie Inflationism" series refers to the fact that inflationism is dead right now. There's hope yet for the inflationists, as I've noted, that the wide open field for the new canon will allow for inflationist nonsense to return, but as it stands at this moment, inflationism just doesn't fly.

That said, there are twitches and hair growth and other autonomic events still occurring, and so it behooves Star Wars tech realists to keep an eye on the corpse and make sure it doesn't rise up and start trying to eat our brains. With that, and not inflationist teeth, in our minds, let's ponder some of the areas in which the inflationists hope to reanimate themselves based on canon evidence.

The goal here is to discuss these arguments (and any others that I might've missed) and ponder or repost counterarguments.

Pt. II: Starships and Spacecraft
http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... f=8&t=6593

Pt. III: Other Weapons
http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... f=8&t=6594

I. The Death Star

The Death Stars always have been and always will be the king of the Vs. Debate. Enormous battlestations with the power to destroy fleets and planets, these monstrosities are remarkable enough without becoming the subject of legends. However, there are legends associated with them.

A. Dodonna's Quote

Some are still trying to use Dodonna's half the fleet quote to prove super-powerful capital ship weaponry, under the theory that the superlaser counts. The novelization's "dense concentration of firepower" line pretty much kills this one dead, so far as I can tell. Even Brian Young, who at least cherry-picks from the novelizations, talks about Dodonna's lines in the novelization but skips that part completely.

Verdict: DOA, still not moving

B. The Shield Argument

(i.e. that the DS shield had to have withstood massive KE)

1. Note that the Death Star shield could not even withstand the kinetic energy of X-Wings or even their blaster bolts, so the concept that it would somehow repel large fast-moving chunks of planet smells of nonsense. (Does earth's magnetic field really deflect anything other than solar farts? Does it cause significant deflection of satellites/probes?)

2. There's also the conceit in this claim that the shield power requirements are equivalent to their effect . . . that is to say, the idea is that the shields must be powerful enough to do the work claimed for them, rather than acting like a wall or a magnetic field.

3. For those who reject the Superlaser Effect, make note of the fact that the beam and the blast zone, in non-superlaser-effect thinking, might ought to prevent some of that debris from heading toward the Death Star, since presumably the Death Star fired dead-on into Alderaan. Think of shaped charges, if you will.

4. Note that the Superlaser Effect would remove much of the possible debris. For instance, there is the calculation I've seen recently where someone posited 10.98 billion or trillion chunks of debris, but the actual visual shows nothing like that. Also note the remnant debris the Falcon comes into, small and cool and slow.

Verdict: Cool, but not as close to room-temperature as I would like, in the sense that the argument could be made that something might've headed for the Death Star.

C. Scaling Down from the Death Star

1. Different technology.

2. Exactly how are they scaling down, again? Reactor size? What about all that barrel scaling they used to do?

Verdict: This scaling stuff is nonsense, of course, but needs a cogent, unified counterargument beyond merely pointing to the canon and asking where the biggatons are. Okay, well, maybe it doesn't need one, 'cause the lack of biggatons works, but it'd be nice anyway.

A counter argument for scaling down from the Death star using 10E38 joules:
10E38 joules=1.11265e+22kilograms or slightly less then the mass of pluto. So whenever the Death Star fires it's superlaser, it's the equivalent of ejecting a small planet at high velocity, which creates an enormous force in the opposite direction. The Death Star should be pushed back quite a bit from the counter-force yet the Death Star doesn't move at all. "Neutrino radiators" that have been used to explain away the lack of recoil when firing supposedly gigaton scale weapons in the past fail because then it becomes the equivalent of getting hit on both sides with minor planets, crushing the death star. If someone attempts to refute it by suggesting that the particles that make up the beam are massless, they get stopped by massless particles having to travel at the speed of light according to special relativity, and the superlaser doesn't.

The Death Star doesn't collapse on itself by default. We're talking about piling heaps of city layers. This is beyond Coruscant. And this thing even moves.
Most likely, a form of structural integrity amplifier is at play. Then, wouldn't this system be used exceptionally in order to withstand the forces resulting from firing the superlaser, and eventually anything that's used to counter the recoil?
This would also add to the power requirements. Which inflaters would take with a big grin.

[theta_pinch]

The "Zombie Inflationism" series refers to the fact that inflationism is dead right now. There's hope yet for the inflationists, as I've noted, that the wide open field for the new canon will allow for inflationist nonsense to return, but as it stands at this moment, inflationism just doesn't fly.

That said, there are twitches and hair growth and other autonomic events still occurring, and so it behooves Star Wars tech realists to keep an eye on the corpse and make sure it doesn't rise up and start trying to eat our brains. With that, and not inflationist teeth, in our minds, let's ponder some of the areas in which the inflationists hope to reanimate themselves based on canon evidence.

The goal here is to discuss these arguments (and any others that I might've missed) and ponder or repost counterarguments.

Pt. II: Starships and Spacecraft
http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... f=8&t=6593

Pt. III: Other Weapons
http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... f=8&t=6594

I. The Death Star

The Death Stars always have been and always will be the king of the Vs. Debate. Enormous battlestations with the power to destroy fleets and planets, these monstrosities are remarkable enough without becoming the subject of legends. However, there are legends associated with them.

A. Dodonna's Quote

Some are still trying to use Dodonna's half the fleet quote to prove super-powerful capital ship weaponry, under the theory that the superlaser counts. The novelization's "dense concentration of firepower" line pretty much kills this one dead, so far as I can tell. Even Brian Young, who at least cherry-picks from the novelizations, talks about Dodonna's lines in the novelization but skips that part completely.

Verdict: DOA, still not moving

B. The Shield Argument

(i.e. that the DS shield had to have withstood massive KE)

1. Note that the Death Star shield could not even withstand the kinetic energy of X-Wings or even their blaster bolts, so the concept that it would somehow repel large fast-moving chunks of planet smells of nonsense. (Does earth's magnetic field really deflect anything other than solar farts? Does it cause significant deflection of satellites/probes?)

2. There's also the conceit in this claim that the shield power requirements are equivalent to their effect . . . that is to say, the idea is that the shields must be powerful enough to do the work claimed for them, rather than acting like a wall or a magnetic field.

3. For those who reject the Superlaser Effect, make note of the fact that the beam and the blast zone, in non-superlaser-effect thinking, might ought to prevent some of that debris from heading toward the Death Star, since presumably the Death Star fired dead-on into Alderaan. Think of shaped charges, if you will.

4. Note that the Superlaser Effect would remove much of the possible debris. For instance, there is the calculation I've seen recently where someone posited 10.98 billion or trillion chunks of debris, but the actual visual shows nothing like that. Also note the remnant debris the Falcon comes into, small and cool and slow.

Verdict: Cool, but not as close to room-temperature as I would like, in the sense that the argument could be made that something might've headed for the Death Star.

C. Scaling Down from the Death Star

1. Different technology.

2. Exactly how are they scaling down, again? Reactor size? What about all that barrel scaling they used to do?

Verdict: This scaling stuff is nonsense, of course, but needs a cogent, unified counterargument beyond merely pointing to the canon and asking where the biggatons are. Okay, well, maybe it doesn't need one, 'cause the lack of biggatons works, but it'd be nice anyway.

A counter argument for scaling down from the Death star using 10E38 joules:
10E38 joules=1.11265e+22kilograms or slightly less then the mass of pluto. So whenever the Death Star fires it's superlaser, it's the equivalent of ejecting a small planet at high velocity, which creates an enormous force in the opposite direction. The Death Star should be pushed back quite a bit from the counter-force yet the Death Star doesn't move at all. "Neutrino radiators" that have been used to explain away the lack of recoil when firing supposedly gigaton scale weapons in the past fail because then it becomes the equivalent of getting hit on both sides with minor planets, crushing the death star. If someone attempts to refute it by suggesting that the particles that make up the beam are massless, they get stopped by massless particles having to travel at the speed of light according to special relativity, and the superlaser doesn't.

The Death Star doesn't collapse on itself by default. We're talking about piling heaps of city layers. This is beyond Coruscant. And this thing even moves.
Most likely, a form of structural integrity amplifier is at play. Then, wouldn't this system be used exceptionally in order to withstand the forces resulting from firing the superlaser, and eventually anything that's used to counter the recoil?
This would also add to the power requirements. Which inflaters would take with a big grin.

It's unlikely that the deathstar was designed with the capability to withstand the force of a planet hitting it with high velocity, If it could survive such levels of force there would have been no need for a shield.

[2046]

Y'know, that brings up a great point . . . if the Death Star could withstand being struck by high-velocity planet pieces of such kinetic energy as to be somewhere in the neighborhood of the 1e38J it supposedly shot at the planet . . . why does it even need to shoot at the planet?

Just ram the planet until it gives up!

Or, to borrow a phrase, how many Death Stars does it take to destroy a planet? "One, at sufficient velocity."

[Mr. Oragahn]

It's unlikely that the deathstar was designed with the capability to withstand the force of a planet hitting it with high velocity, If it could survive such levels of force there would have been no need for a shield.

A modern tank will be destroyed by a sabot round, yet the cannon of this same tank is perfectly capable of withstanding the energy required to propel this projectile.
This is not meant to be argue that e38 J somethings were fired, planets will actually break up at even energies lower than e32 J, although they won't expand as violently and part of the ejecta would fall back into the rather hazy gravity well after a while.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Y'know, that brings up a great point . . . if the Death Star could withstand being struck by high-velocity planet pieces of such kinetic energy as to be somewhere in the neighborhood of the 1e38J it supposedly shot at the planet . . . why does it even need to shoot at the planet?

Just ram the planet until it gives up!

Or, to borrow a phrase, how many Death Stars does it take to destroy a planet? "One, at sufficient velocity."

If the battle station compensated the recoil with some powerful ion engines, all they'd need to do would be to point those engines at a planet and push the gas pedal. And giving them a finger at the same time.

[theta_pinch]

Y'know, that brings up a great point . . . if the Death Star could withstand being struck by high-velocity planet pieces of such kinetic energy as to be somewhere in the neighborhood of the 1e38J it supposedly shot at the planet . . . why does it even need to shoot at the planet?

Just ram the planet until it gives up!

Or, to borrow a phrase, how many Death Stars does it take to destroy a planet? "One, at sufficient velocity."

If the battle station compensated the recoil with some powerful ion engines, all they'd need to do would be to point those engines at a planet and push the gas pedal. And giving them a finger at the same time.

Which sheds doubt on the theory they can handle the counter-force, and the force it's generating to compensate recoil since the ion engines would have to be 10E38 joules in which case they don't need the superlaser.

[theta_pinch]

It's unlikely that the deathstar was designed with the capability to withstand the force of a planet hitting it with high velocity, If it could survive such levels of force there would have been no need for a shield.

A modern tank will be destroyed by a sabot round, yet the cannon of this same tank is perfectly capable of withstanding the energy required to propel this projectile.
This is not meant to be argue that e38 J somethings were fired, planets will actually break up at even energies lower than e32 J, although they won't expand as violently and part of the ejecta would fall back into the rather hazy gravity well after a while.

That's different; in the case of surviving shooting the round it simply has to withstand the pressure, and if the reaction force was great enough it would be pushed back. The Death Stars' scenario can be more accurately be compared with a rocket strapped to the ground so it can't move. And when a rocket fires it's engine but can't move, it explodes.

Edit: I finally decided to crunch the numbers (I hope I used that expression right) and here's the results:

Superlaser mass-energy:1.11265e+22kg
Superlaser velocity: 48,631.6 kilometers per second
Time: 1.583333 seconds

A=(48631.6-0)/1.583333
A=30714.69km/s^2
F=M(A)
F=1.11265e+22(30714690)
F=3.41747e+29 newtons.

[Mr. Oragahn]

I don't see how it's different. The superlaser cannon obyes exactly the same principle, but at a much larger scale: it propels stuff. The question is about having the superlaser assembly not dislocate itself or shooting out through the Death Star's aft, like someone sneezing too hard and, erm, well...