Starfleet Jedi

PRE-DOMINION CARDASSIAN FIREPOWER
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/obser ... ounded.htm

Franchise: Star Trek Series: The next Generation Version: Blue Ray Season: 04 Episode: 12 Title: The Wounded wrote:
324384950
DISRUPTOR WEAPONS DISCHARGING
EST OUTPUT 700MW (COHERENT)
RAPID NADION EFFECT: 240KHZ

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Franchise: Star Trek Series: The next Generation Version: Blue Ray Season: 04 Episode: 12 Title: The Wounded wrote:
USS PHOENIX
NCC-85420
SUSTAINED DIRECT WEAPONS HIT
HIGH ENERGY DISRUPTOR BEAMS
ESTIMATED IMPACT = 120 MW
SECONDARY IMPACT = 02 MW

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PRE-DOMINION WAR FEDERATION FIREPOWER

Franchise: Star Trek Series: The next Generation Season: 03 Episode: 04 Title: Who Watches The Watchers wrote:
PICARD: Mister La Forge, report. 


LAFORGE: We've finished replicating the parts they'll need, but what I don't understand is why a three man station would need a reactor capable of producing four point two gigawatts. 


RIKER: Enough to power a small phaser bank, a subspace relay station, or 


LAFORGE: A hologram generator. Oh, a duck blind. Right. They're anthropologists.

Franchise: Star Trek Series: The next Generation Season: 05 Episode: 09 Title: A Matter of Time wrote:
DATA: If our phaser discharge is off by as little as point zero six terawatts, it would cause a cascading exothermal inversion. 


PICARD: Meaning? 


DATA: We would completely burn off the planet's atmosphere.

How did the Cardassians expect to win a war with the Federation when the UFP outclasses them by at least 2 orders of magnitude in every way?

Why would the Cardassians even think it was a good idea to start a war with the Federation? Are they really that resource poor?

I think it may be a 'mouse that roared' situation. Knowing the Cardies they figured they could bully the Feds a bit and they wouldn't jump to war. They ultimately were wrong but still at least proved themselves relevant as existing at least.

This reminded me of a quote about The Culture that could well be applied to the UFP:

You might call them soft, because they’re very reluctant to kill, and they might agree with you, but they’re soft the way the ocean is soft, and, well; ask any sea captain how harmless and puny the ocean can be.

Trinoya wrote: I think it may be a 'mouse that roared' situation. Knowing the Cardies they figured they could bully the Feds a bit and they wouldn't jump to war. They ultimately were wrong but still at least proved themselves relevant as existing at least.

The problem is that the Cardassians were bleeding themselves dry trying to invade the Federation as if it was a life and death matter for them while the UFP seems to have barely noticed the war. This doesn't sound like a Mouse that roared to me so much as a prideful people who are insanely low on resources.

I have just done a calculation, Cardassian disruptor beam has an output of 324 MW. I can't remember how long it lasts, though, and considering that it can't even scratch Nebula's hull even when latter's shields are down, it isn't very powerful.

Considering that the Megawatt figure contradicts with so much else in canon (especially TDiC), it it's easy to write it off as an outlier. Not to mention in "The Chase", where the Cardassians managed to damage the Enterprise-D's nacelle. Or, watch any Dominion War episode, where Cardassian ships make short work of Mirandas. My guess is that we're seeing one of those variable yield things, where one minute they're in the megawatt range, and the next they're melting continents.

Oh, and the Cardasian disruptor rifle? Much better weapon than the Starfleet phaser rifle. The Starfleet phaser rifle has an output of 1.05 megawatts, while the Cardassian disruptor rifle's is 4.7 megawatts. Not to mention, to quote Kira, you can drag it through the mud, and it will still fire.

And if they really were as weak as said, then how come they were able to fight the Federation to a standstill during the Federation-Cardassian War?

Khas wrote:And if they really were as weak as said, then how come they were able to fight the Federation to a standstill during the Federation-Cardassian War?

My answer UFP bigger fish to fry. The Borg scout ships doing mission inside UFP territories was out question major threat. In practice give some minor world in return for peace with Cardassion Union worth while if means UFP more recourse available to fight the Borg.

Khas wrote:And if they really were as weak as said, then how come they were able to fight the Federation to a standstill during the Federation-Cardassian War?

Just something to remember here, the diagrams and readouts according to Mike Sussman are supposed to be soft canon, so if dialog or visuals contradict them, then they aren't valid. In this case, are we seriously supposed to believe that Cardassian weapons are only half a gigawatt while a Galaxy-class starship from the Federation is going around according to dialog in TNG's "A Matter of Time" with a slightest of variances in phaser output that is 120 times more powerful than that, never mind the total output which would be potentially many orders of magnitude higher.

Granted that in "The Wounded", the Cardassian ships were no match for the Phoenix, but still, you have to figure they'd be within an order of magnitude of Federation ship firepower or the whole war would've been a curbstomp for the Federation on nearly the same level as the E-D's romp through the Lyssians in "Conundrum".
-Mike

Khas wrote:Considering that the Megawatt figure contradicts with so much else in canon (especially TDiC), it it's easy to write it off as an outlier. Not to mention in "The Chase", where the Cardassians managed to damage the Enterprise-D's nacelle. Or, watch any Dominion War episode, where Cardassian ships make short work of Mirandas. My guess is that we're seeing one of those variable yield things, where one minute they're in the megawatt range, and the next they're melting continents.

Oh, and the Cardasian disruptor rifle? Much better weapon than the Starfleet phaser rifle. The Starfleet phaser rifle has an output of 1.05 megawatts, while the Cardassian disruptor rifle's is 4.7 megawatts. Not to mention, to quote Kira, you can drag it through the mud, and it will still fire.

They didn't manage to damage the E-D's warp nacelle as the nacelle was sufficiently protected from the Cardassian weapons by SIF alone:

WORF: Direct hit on our port nacelle. They are powering up for another volley.

RIKER: Let's make it look good. Ensign, release the inertial dampers.

ENSIGN: Aye, sir.

WORF: They are firing.
(everything shakes as the Cardassians target the nacelle again and fly off)

PICARD: Report, Number One.

RIKER: The power boost to the structural integrity field protected the nacelles. We used the inertial dampers to simulate complete shield failure.

NU'DAQ: It is fortunate that your Engineer discovered Gul Ocett's attempt to tamper with your defensive systems. Maht-H'a. Status.

Also, Kira describes the Federation rifle as "little less powerful", the 1.05 MW number was never said in "The Mind's Eye" to be full power or anything else:

KIRA: This is a standard issue, Cardassian phase-disruptor rifle. It has a four point seven megajoule power capacity, three millisecond recharge two beam settings.

ZIYAL: How do you know so much about Cardassian weapons?

KIRA: We captured a lot of them during the occupation. It's a good weapon, solid, simple. You can drag it through the mud and it'll still fire. Now this. (Federation phaser rifle.) This is an entirely different animal. Federation standard issue. It's a little less powerful, but it's got a more options. Sixteen beam settings. Fully autonomous recharge, multiple target acquisition, gyro stabilised, the works. It's a little more complicated, so it's not as good a field weapon. Too many things can go wrong with it.

So no, it's not quite the disparity there, Khas.
-Mike

Mike DiCenso wrote:

Khas wrote:And if they really were as weak as said, then how come they were able to fight the Federation to a standstill during the Federation-Cardassian War?

Just something to remember here, the diagrams and readouts according to Mike Sussman are supposed to be soft canon, so if dialog or visuals contradict them, then they aren't valid. In this case, are we seriously supposed to believe that Cardassian weapons are only half a gigawatt while a Galaxy-class starship from the Federation is going around according to dialog in TNG's "A Matter of Time" with a slightest of variances in phaser output that is 120 times more powerful than that, never mind the total output which would be potentially many orders of magnitude higher.

Granted that in "The Wounded", the Cardassian ships were no match for the Phoenix, but still, you have to figure they'd be within an order of magnitude of Federation ship firepower or the whole war would've been a curbstomp for the Federation on nearly the same level as the E-D's romp through the Lyssians in "Conundrum".
-Mike

a
First of the Cardassion trouble tracking the USS Phoenix. On top of that we know what type of warship the USS Phoenix took on. We also remember Cardassion build drone design to take target size smell moon. That had shields protect it very effective against USS Voyager.

Grimlock hate confess Jasonb wrong not. Grimlock say good point Jasonb. But Grimlock retort Cardassian missile maybe pieces of advanced tech but had dumbness problems bad detonator goofy computer unable to sniff out right smelly moon Delta Quadrant. Maybe kludge of stolen tech like Pakled Jasonb species.

Grimlock eat missile candy yum.

Khas wrote: Considering that the Megawatt figure contradicts with so much else in canon (especially TDiC), it it's easy to write it off as an outlier. Not to mention in "The Chase", where the Cardassians managed to damage the Enterprise-D's nacelle. Or, watch any Dominion War episode, where Cardassian ships make short work of Mirandas. My guess is that we're seeing one of those variable yield things, where one minute they're in the megawatt range, and the next they're melting continents.

Oh, and the Cardasian disruptor rifle? Much better weapon than the Starfleet phaser rifle. The Starfleet phaser rifle has an output of 1.05 megawatts, while the Cardassian disruptor rifle's is 4.7 megawatts. Not to mention, to quote Kira, you can drag it through the mud, and it will still fire.

1) The Wounded 04x12 Stardate 44429.6

The Chase is 06x20 Stardate 46731.5

The Die is Cast happens between Stardates 48543.2 and 48959.1

Between The Chase and The Wounded roughly 2 years pass, and that seems like enough time for the Cardassians to improve their ships. It is hardly unreasonable to think that the Cardassians could purchase, steal, and do scientific research to improve their own technology in that time frame when one looks at what the Federation often does.

That means TDIC happens something like a year or two after The Chase, and the fleet we see was built with the help of the Romulans

4ish years to buy, steal, or do the hard work to improve their fleet, and still be behind the Federation, Klingons, and Romulans is rather believable. Just think about what the Federation did to Deep Space 9

2) DS9:Return To Grace
KIRA: This is a standard issue, Cardassian phase-disruptor rifle. It has a four point seven megajoule power capacity, three millisecond recharge two beam settings.

1565.1MW sounds oddly high until you remember the phase pistols had a similarly high output when compared to ship mounted weapons. It's rather similar to the ratio between phase pistols and ship mounted phase cannons used by the crew of the NX-01.

3) The Wounded
PICARD: Believe it. I'd been sent to make preliminary overtures to a truce. I'd lowered my shields as a gesture of good will. But the Cardassians were not impressed. They had taken out most of my weapons and damaged the impulse engines before I could regroup and run.

Given the Cardassians couldn't reliably disable or destroy an unshielded science vessel, I don't think the Cardassians were ever suppose to be a powerful enemy.

Khas wrote: And if they really were as weak as said, then how come they were able to fight the Federation to a standstill during the Federation-Cardassian War?

The Cardassians weren't able to fight the Federation to a standstill. It was the Borg showing up, and other seemingly less reasonable powers causing the Federation problems that made the Federation so willing to bargain even if it just meant a few years of peace.

One could take the events of The Wounded as the Federation reminding the Cardassian union of its place. The Federation seemed to want the Cardassians to realize that the Federation was just being polite, but had bigger sticks.

Picard wrote: I have just done a calculation, Cardassian disruptor beam has an output of 324 MW. I can't remember how long it lasts, though, and considering that it can't even scratch Nebula's hull even when latter's shields are down, it isn't very powerful.

The quote actually tells the output of the Cardassian weapons, 700MW "muzzle velocity". By the time the beam traveled about a light second it had dropped to 120 MW.

The pre wounded Cardassians seem like a good VS match for Babylon 5.