Star Trek: Power Generation

[Lucky]

WORF: Captain, I'm receiving an audio signal. 


PICARD: Audio on. 


VOICE [OC]: Come in Enterprise. This is Command Headquarters of Daled Four. We have been expecting you. 


DATA: Sir, sensors indicate the communication originated from a terawatt source on the planet. 


RIKER: That's more power than our entire ship can generate. 


DATA: It is what is needed to penetrate the atmosphere. 


RIKER: Which means we lack the ability to respond, sir. 


WORF: Sir, there are beam-down coordinates encoded within the carrier signal. 


PICARD: Splendid. 


RIKER: I'll arrange for our guests to beam down.

This statement does not make sense unless Riker was talking about the communications systems on the ship.

HANNAH: The biosphere's superstructure will never withstand the tectonic shocks. The environment would be compromised. 


LAFORGE: That's how I see it. 


HANNAH: Your ship. What kind of energy output is it capable of generating? 


LAFORGE: We have a matter-antimatter warp reaction system, the most powerful in the Starfleet. Normally, it kicks plasma up into the terawatt range. Why? 


HANNAH: Well, either we're going to have to move or that fragment is. 


LAFORGE: We can move a small moon or an asteroid, but a stellar core fragment? That's much too massive for our tractor beam. 


(she calls up a diagram on a screen) 


LAFORGE: What's that? 


HANNAH: A wild idea, purely theoretical. 


LAFORGE: A multiphase tractor beam? 


HANNAH: When we first spotted the fragment approaching, I came up with the idea, but we can't generate the kind of energy we would need. You can.

About 12749999 Terawatts would be needed to match the figure given in TNG:True Q.

About 7949 Terawatts would be required to match the figure stated in Voy:Revulsion.

Given how Gigawatts is used, the above might be what Laforge meant?

AMANDA: It's hard to imagine how much energy is being harnessed in there. 


DATA: Imagination is not necessary. The scale is readily quantifiable. We are presently generating twelve point seven five billion gigawatts per

12.75 Billion Gigawatt

12,750,000,000 Gigawatts

3047.323135755 M-Tons Per Second

3.047.323135755 G-Tons Per Second

SEVEN: It is. The optical assembly is properly aligned. I'm ready to access the main power supply. 


KIM: After you. Wait! What are you doing? There are five million gigawatts running through there! 


SEVEN: The exoskeleton on this limb can withstand it. 


KIM: That's all well and good, but there are safety procedures we've got to follow. 


SEVEN: The procedures are a waste of time.

5 Million Gigawatts

5,000,000 Gigawatt

1.95028681 M-Tons Per Second

Did I miss anything important?

How do you rationalize the seemingly conflicting data?

[Picard]

How do you rationalize the seemingly conflicting data?

I don't see anything conflicting in the data. First example clearly is about communication systems. Second one doesn't provide anything specific. Third one gives figure but not what ship was doing at the time. Fourth example is similar to third one, figure but not state; it can be assumed that Voyager was doing a more energy-intensive task (moving at higher speed).

[Lucky]

How do you rationalize the seemingly conflicting data?

I don't see anything conflicting in the data. First example clearly is about communication systems.

Given it conflicts with everything else that makes the most sense

Second one doesn't provide anything specific.

Third one gives figure but not what ship was doing at the time.

At the time the Enterprise-D is sitting in orbit doing every day stuff, and loading and unloading stuff. There is no reason to think something unusually energy intensive is going on. It seems like it would be similar to idling your car while listening to the car radio with the AC or heater on.

Fourth example is similar to third one, figure but not state; it can be assumed that Voyager was doing a more energy-intensive task (moving at higher speed).

Voyager is just traveling home, and the conduit does not seem to lead to anything like the warp drive or navigational deflector.

Voyager was chronically trying to conserve energy as well.

[theta_pinch]

Voyager power generation:

Mass lightening factor estimate: 4 million(Deja Q)
Voyager Mass: 700,000 metric tons

700,000/4,000,000=175 kilograms

Voyager speed: 0.8c

E=1/2(175)239833966^2
E=87.5(5.7520331e+16)
E=5.033029e+18 joules


Note: Warp Drive is implied to require far more energy.

[2046]

Er, actually, he'd say it if he was confirming the order.

A good example is "Encounter at Farpoint", when Picard and the helmsicle converse thusly:

PICARD: Reverse power, full stop.
TORRES: Controls to full stop, sir.
TORRES: Now reading full stop, sir.

I forget the exact number of beats between the two statements, but it was long enough to give folks the sense that the Love Boat needed more than the merest moment to shed her velocity.

[theta_pinch]

Er, actually, he'd say it if he was confirming the order.

A good example is "Encounter at Farpoint", when Picard and the helmsicle converse thusly:

PICARD: Reverse power, full stop.
TORRES: Controls to full stop, sir.
TORRES: Now reading full stop, sir.

I forget the exact number of beats between the two statements, but it was long enough to give folks the sense that the Love Boat needed more than the merest moment to shed her velocity.

Grrrr. My power generation figure is still correct though

[2046]

Yeah, about that . . . I really have no idea how you derived it, really. Mainly the 4 million part.

[theta_pinch]

Yeah, about that . . . I really have no idea how you derived it, really. Mainly the 4 million part.

The mass lightening page in the open database in reference to the estimated change in mass of the moon the Enterprise D lowered the mass of.

Edit: without mass lightening I got ICS figures: around 10E23 joules.

[2046]

http://starfleetjedi.net/wiki/index.php ... lightening

Huh . . . I must've missed a thread somewhere. That's excellent. I presume the estimated 10^16kg is based on granite or iron or something compared to some scaling efforts. Since the lightened asteroid mass in tonnes is given in the episode, boom.

Very nice.

One extra detail, however, is that they couldn't get the whole moon in the field, at least at first. Indeed, once they start moving the asteroid there's a graphic on the bridge suggesting (unless the notoriously-bad Rebel graphic scalers hopped universes that day) that only a relatively small percentage of the moon was actually within the field. That graphic seems a little contrary to the dialog, but it's iffy.

As an example of why I'm yapping about that, if only 50% of the asteroid were encompassed by the field, and if the mass were reduced to 2.5 million tonnes, then the whole thing ought to have been only five million tonnes even if they magically removed all the mass of that 50% completely.

But, that's all contingent on an interpretation of the bridge graphic as showing zero effect on the rest of the moon, rather than a threshold of some kind. That is to say, if I had a temperature chart of something that had a lower threshold of 50 degrees, it doesn't mean that what's outside it is at absolute zero.

[theta_pinch]

USS Enterprise

Mass estimate from *Technical manual: 4,500,000 metric tons
Mass lightening factor estimate: 4,000,000-http://starfleetjedi.net/wiki/index.php ... lightening
Maximum Impulse speed estimate (based on Voyager impulse speed and *TM): 0.75c

4,500,000,000/4,000,000
1125 kg

E=1/2(1125)224,844,344^2
E=562.5(5.0554979e+16)
E=2.8437176e+19

And again the actual power generation will be higher due to this being the weaker impulse engines rather than the warp core.



*Yes I know it's non-canon but it's the best estimate there is; at least there isn't three different figures.

[2046]

http://st-v-sw.net/STSWvolumetrics.html

You could easily double the TM mass for the Galaxy Class and be in the ballpark of what I'd consider accurate mass-wise. That said, at Voyager density (recalling that Voyager is a ship meant to land, and which I would therefore presume to be at least a wee bit lighter than her comrades), the Galaxy Class would be 6.5 million tonnes. At Constitution Class density, she'd be 25 million.

I figure she's 9 or 10, easy, and quite possibly more, even if we assume she's not nearly as dense as a Constitution. After all, she's got over 9 times the volume and is definitely sporting a less compact design than Voyager.

[theta_pinch]

http://st-v-sw.net/STSWvolumetrics.html

You could easily double the TM mass for the Galaxy Class and be in the ballpark of what I'd consider accurate mass-wise. That said, at Voyager density (recalling that Voyager is a ship meant to land, and which I would therefore presume to be at least a wee bit lighter than her comrades), the Galaxy Class would be 6.5 million tonnes. At Constitution Class density, she'd be 25 million.

I figure she's 9 or 10, easy, and quite possibly more, even if we assume she's not nearly as dense as a Constitution. After all, she's got over 9 times the volume and is definitely sporting a less compact design than Voyager.

So that brings the estimate up to: 5.6874352e+19 joules.

[Mr. Oragahn]

WORF: Captain, I'm receiving an audio signal. 


PICARD: Audio on. 


VOICE [OC]: Come in Enterprise. This is Command Headquarters of Daled Four. We have been expecting you. 


DATA: Sir, sensors indicate the communication originated from a terawatt source on the planet. 


RIKER: That's more power than our entire ship can generate. 


DATA: It is what is needed to penetrate the atmosphere. 


RIKER: Which means we lack the ability to respond, sir. 


WORF: Sir, there are beam-down coordinates encoded within the carrier signal. 


PICARD: Splendid. 


RIKER: I'll arrange for our guests to beam down.

This statement does not make sense unless Riker was talking about the communications systems on the ship.

HANNAH: The biosphere's superstructure will never withstand the tectonic shocks. The environment would be compromised. 


LAFORGE: That's how I see it. 


HANNAH: Your ship. What kind of energy output is it capable of generating? 


LAFORGE: We have a matter-antimatter warp reaction system, the most powerful in the Starfleet. Normally, it kicks plasma up into the terawatt range. Why? 


HANNAH: Well, either we're going to have to move or that fragment is. 


LAFORGE: We can move a small moon or an asteroid, but a stellar core fragment? That's much too massive for our tractor beam. 


(she calls up a diagram on a screen) 


LAFORGE: What's that? 


HANNAH: A wild idea, purely theoretical. 


LAFORGE: A multiphase tractor beam? 


HANNAH: When we first spotted the fragment approaching, I came up with the idea, but we can't generate the kind of energy we would need. You can.

About 12749999 Terawatts would be needed to match the figure given in TNG:True Q.

About 7949 Terawatts would be required to match the figure stated in Voy:Revulsion.

Given how Gigawatts is used, the above might be what Laforge meant?

AMANDA: It's hard to imagine how much energy is being harnessed in there. 


DATA: Imagination is not necessary. The scale is readily quantifiable. We are presently generating twelve point seven five billion gigawatts per

12.75 Billion Gigawatt

12,750,000,000 Gigawatts

3047.323135755 M-Tons Per Second

3.047.323135755 G-Tons Per Second

SEVEN: It is. The optical assembly is properly aligned. I'm ready to access the main power supply. 


KIM: After you. Wait! What are you doing? There are five million gigawatts running through there! 


SEVEN: The exoskeleton on this limb can withstand it. 


KIM: That's all well and good, but there are safety procedures we've got to follow. 


SEVEN: The procedures are a waste of time.

5 Million Gigawatts

5,000,000 Gigawatt

1.95028681 M-Tons Per Second

Did I miss anything important?

How do you rationalize the seemingly conflicting data?

Thing is, with Star Trek, by looking at the E-D's warp core in the TNG series for example, it seems plausible that energy is sent by pulses. In certain cases, the use of x watt wouldn't necessarily translate as x J/ 1s, but perhaps as y J / duration of one pulse of energy, which would actually not make the real energy figure as impressive, but would make the power rate shoot through the roof.

[359]

In TNG: "The Masterpiece Society" LaForge describes the warp core in terawatts. However they plan to accelerate a massive core fragment. And the limiting factor isn't the ship's power generation capabilities, its the tractor beam. To change the velocity of the fragment by only 1 m/s would take at least 4.18*10^26 J. That's assuming the fragment is only two kilometers across, and it clearly is much larger than that.

[Picard]

Thing is, with Star Trek, by looking at the E-D's warp core in the TNG series for example, it seems plausible that energy is sent by pulses. In certain cases, the use of x watt wouldn't necessarily translate as x J/ 1s, but perhaps as y J / duration of one pulse of energy, which would actually not make the real energy figure as impressive, but would make the power rate shoot through the roof.

That is actually what I mentioned to 2046 regarding his power generation page: it is possible that Data's "12,75 billion GW per" was meant as "per pulse"; in that case, core would be generating 4,25 billion GW.