Encounter At Farpoint to quantify phaser and reactor output?

Lucky · Post by **Lucky** » Mon Jun 17, 2013 11:48 pm

Why hasn't anyone ever used "Encounter at Farpoint" to help determine the Enterprise-D's phaser and reactor output?

359 · Post by **359** » Wed Jun 19, 2013 3:35 am

To what in the episode are you referring?

2046 · Post by **2046** » Fri Jun 21, 2013 4:16 am

Presumably the phaser energy beam that allowed a spacefaring jellyfish to lift off from a planet's surface and achieve orbit very rapidly?

Without details of the power requirements of the jellyfish propulsion system, I don't think we can really go anywhere with that. The Saxtonian idea that you should just calculate reactor energy based on Newtonian physical requirements to break free of the gravity well is nothing more than a conceit. After all, we're dealing with the sci-fi 'reality' where graviton and subspace-whatzit manipulation is commonplace. The Saxtonian calculation is good for pondering the relevant effect, but not the causal force.

And yes, I know of the counterarguments to that idea . . . that it would make for perpetual motion machines and whatnot . . . but since they don't exist in the canon, obviously that is not the case. I think I've speculated elsewhere that a subspace bias of some sort could cancel out the supposed gains after a time, defeating the supposed perpetual motion system, and thus nullify perpetual motion concerns.

Lucky · Post by **Lucky** » Fri Jun 21, 2013 4:29 am

359 wrote: To what in the episode are you referring?

Series: Star Trek The next Generation Season: 1 Episode: 1 Titke: Encounter at Farpoint wrote: Q: It is an unknown, Captain. Isn't that enough?  

PICARD: If you'd earned that uniform you're wearing, you'd know that the unknown is what brings us out here.  

Q: Wasted effort, considering the human intelligence.  

PICARD: Let's test that. Beginning with the tunnels you have under Farpoint, Groppler.  

RIKER: Identical to the ones on the space vessel lifeform over there. Why was it punishing you, Groppler?  

PICARD: In return for some pain you'd given other creature?  

ZORN: We've done nothing wrong. It was injured. We helped it.  

PICARD: Thank you. That was the missing part. Lieutenant Yar, rig main phaser banks to deliver an energy beam.  

TASHA: Aye, sir.

RIKER: You're right, Captain. It has to be conceivable that somewhere in this galaxy there could exist creatures able to convert energy into matter.  

PICARD: And into specific patterns of matter, just as our transporters do.  

TASHA: On the viewer, Captain!  
(The alien vessel transforms into a giant space jellyfish)  
PICARD: Groppler, you captured something like that, didn't you?  

ZORN: Warn my people, please, to leave Farpoint Station immediately!  

Q: He lies, Captain. Shouldn't you let his people die?  

PICARD: Transmit the message, leave Farpoint Space Station immediately.  

TROI: Then it was a pair of creatures I was sensing. One down there in grief and pain, the other up here, filled with anger.  

DATA: And firing not on the new space station, but on the Bandi and their city.  

PICARD: Attacking those who had captured, capture its mate.  

TASHA: Energy beam ready, sir.  

PICARD: Lock it in on Farpoint Station.  

Q: I see now it was too simple a puzzle. Generosity has always been my weakness.  

PICARD: Let it have whatever it can absorb. Energise.  
(A stream of light bathes Farpoint)  
TASHA: Now getting feedback on the beam, sir.  

PICARD: Discontinue. Groppler Zorn, there'll soon be no Farpoint Station, if I'm right about this.  

Q: A lucky guess.  
(Farpoint transforms into another space jellyfish)

http://tng.trekcore.com/hd/thumbnails.p ... =1&page=36

1) It seems like the Enterprise-D provides the energy the creature needed to create large amounts of matter in order to heal. You can't transform energy into matter if the amount of energy required is not provided. this would mean the Enterprise-D had to provide most the needed energy.

2) The energy is channeled through the heavy phasers. If the energy is released through the phasers then the phasers will likely have an output that is near what is shown in the episode.

This seems like a much more reliable method then using unquantifiable stellar phenomenon such as the stars in "Suspicions" and "Decent Parts 1 and 2".

Lucky · Post by **Lucky** » Fri Jun 21, 2013 4:46 am

2046 wrote:Presumably the phaser energy beam that allowed a spacefaring jellyfish to lift off from a planet's surface and achieve orbit very rapidly?

Without details of the power requirements of the jellyfish propulsion system, I don't think we can really go anywhere with that. The Saxtonian idea that you should just calculate reactor energy based on Newtonian physical requirements to break free of the gravity well is nothing more than a conceit. After all, we're dealing with the sci-fi 'reality' where graviton and subspace-whatzit manipulation is commonplace. The Saxtonian calculation is good for pondering the relevant effect, but not the causal force.

And yes, I know of the counterarguments to that idea . . . that it would make for perpetual motion machines and whatnot . . . but since they don't exist in the canon, obviously that is not the case. I think I've speculated elsewhere that a subspace bias of some sort could cancel out the supposed gains after a time, defeating the supposed perpetual motion system, and thus nullify perpetual motion concerns.

While that would be amusing, I was talking about the energy to matter transformation the space jellyfish carries out when fed by the Enterprise-D. The Enterprise-D provides the loin's share of the energy the space jellyfish needed, and provided it through the heavy phasers.

To make the event even more attractive, Gene Roddenberry is credited as one of the writters the episode implying this was the kind of firepower that Star Trek ships had in his eyes.

Mr. Oragahn · Post by **Mr. Oragahn** » Fri Jun 21, 2013 11:49 pm

What is the volume of that creature before healing and after?
Can we guess its density? (watery tissue maybe?)
The less efficient the energy to matter process, the more waste there is, therefore the more energy is needed. Mind you, I'd expect such a process to happen slowly. I don't think delivering energy at a high power would work. All systems have their tolerance and it often happens that although a given energy threshold is needed to obtain the most efficiency or simply to get the process started, over a certain power and beyond, the system opposes resistance and the gain becomes smaller and smaller.

359 · Post by **359** » Sat Jun 22, 2013 5:25 pm

Whatever the quantity and efficiency, it would be quite a high-end value. One metric ton of matter at 100% efficiency would take 90 exajoules (21.5 Gt), and that is only one cubic meter of water. This for a creature significantly larger than the Enterprise-D.

Mr. Oragahn · Post by **Mr. Oragahn** » Tue Jun 25, 2013 12:03 am

Maybe it was just a flesh wound...

Post by **Mike DiCenso** » Thu Jun 27, 2013 7:17 pm

For entities the size of the Space Jellyfish creatures, "a flesh wound" would still represent a considerable amount of mass that has to be created from energy, even if the space jelly fish creatures in their true natural forms have the density of foam or cotton.

But to play Devil's advocate, we know that a small shuttle transporter can work on a few tens of megawatts, so perhaps whatever it is the Space Jellyfish creatures do takes advantage of a similar trick.
-Mike

359 · Post by **359** » Thu Jun 27, 2013 11:55 pm

But shuttle transporters don't go around creating matter that wasn't there from energy. Also, out of curiosity, what episode what episode is the tens of megawatts from?

sonofccn · Post by **sonofccn** » Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:59 am

359 wrote:But shuttle transporters don't go around creating matter that wasn't there from energy. Also, out of curiosity, what episode what episode is the tens of megawatts from?

Well I don't know if this was the example Mike meant but there is this:

the outcast season 5 {TNG} wrote:RIKER: Getting sensor readings. They're unconscious but they're alive. Stand by. I'm going to transport them over here.
SOREN: Power reserves at sixty eight percent and dropping.
(two figures start to materialise then vanish again)
RIKER: The null space must be affecting the annular confinement beam.
SOREN: We used ten megajoules with that attempt. We're down to thirty four percent of reserves.
RIKER: We can give it one more try. More than that, we won't have enough power to get ourselves out of here.
(this time the two bodies solidify)

Post by **Mike DiCenso** » Thu Jul 04, 2013 3:17 am

That's the correct example, Sonofccn. "The Outcast" establishes this, though it is in conflict with "The Dauphin", where it is strongly indicated that the E-D's transporters are capable of projecting at least a terawatt to get through Daled IV's atmosphere and beam Saila down to it's surface.
-Mike

Lucky · Post by **Lucky** » Fri Jul 26, 2013 8:24 am

Mike DiCenso wrote: But to play Devil's advocate, we know that a small shuttle transporter can work on a few tens of megawatts, so perhaps whatever it is the Space Jellyfish creatures do takes advantage of a similar trick.
-Mike

A transporter takes matter, transforms it to energy, and then transforms the energy to matter again. The transporter does not create the energy that it turns into energy, and then turns back to matter.

If you really wanted to come up with a low end, you could try calculating how powerful the beam would have to be if it was simply a spotlight or laser pointer.

Lucky · Post by **Lucky** » Fri Jul 26, 2013 8:36 am

Mr. Oragahn wrote: What is the volume of that creature before healing and after?

Mr. Oragahn wrote: Can we guess its density? (watery tissue maybe?)

Encounter at Farpoint wrote: TASHA: It's much the same construction we saw in the underground tunnel.  

DATA: But no sound of power. No equipment.  

TASHA: How does this ship run?

http://tng.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x01/ ... hd_792.jpg

http://tng.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x01/ ... hd_793.jpg

http://tng.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x01/ ... hd_794.jpg

http://tng.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x01/ ... hd_795.jpg

http://tng.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x01/ ... hd_796.jpg

The space jellyfish appear to be starships.

Mr. Oragahn wrote: The less efficient the energy to matter process, the more waste there is, therefore the more energy is needed. Mind you, I'd expect such a process to happen slowly. I don't think delivering energy at a high power would work. All systems have their tolerance and it often happens that although a given energy threshold is needed to obtain the most efficiency or simply to get the process started, over a certain power and beyond, the system opposes resistance and the gain becomes smaller and smaller.

We are talking about creatures that can pass as starships, and carry out limited orbital bombardment with energy beams. I think we can treat it like a ship rather then a life form, and the Enterprise-D has been able to power an idling Romulan Warbird
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MQyyxFeSRI

Mr. Oragahn wrote: Maybe it was just a flesh wound...

That is still quite a wound given we are talking about a creature that is several kilometers across, and can pass itself off as a spaceship.

Post by **Jedi Master Spock** » Sun Jul 28, 2013 1:25 am

2046 wrote:The Saxtonian idea that you should just calculate reactor energy based on Newtonian physical requirements to break free of the gravity well is nothing more than a conceit. After all, we're dealing with the sci-fi 'reality' where graviton and subspace-whatzit manipulation is commonplace. The Saxtonian calculation is good for pondering the relevant effect, but not the causal force.

I wouldn't call it a "Saxtonian" idea. I relied quite heavily on it; and it is not the source for most Saxtonite computations of Star Wars or Star Trek reactor problem. I view conservation of energy as the most fundamental method of getting at the question. Whether you use subspace manipulation, gravity manipulation, et cetera, you have to come up with the net energy difference somewhere.

The reason for this is that even with very generous adjustment of parameters, you don't create a difference that favors Star Wars that way. Not with the G level material; and not even really with most EU material, either. Star Trek ships escape larger and more massive objects in TV series episodes than Star Wars ships do in movies.

Even if you assume the cuts in the movie don't include any time gap during the Hoth escape or Tatooine escape, which contradicts the novels, escaping from close orbit from around a sun in a matter of minutes is more impressive.

If you want the E-D to be pumping enough energy out to create a large quantity of matter from scratch... the thing is huge, and if you give it a reasonable-sounding density, we are talking millions of tons per second being added. 1.1 million tons per second gives 10^26 watts.

Starfleet Jedi

Encounter At Farpoint to quantify phaser and reactor output?

Encounter At Farpoint to quantify phaser and reactor output?

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