I'm posting this because I'd like to know about your own respective opinions on this issue and, eventually, know if there are elements in the movies or in the EU we missed.
Enjoy. ;)
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Mr. Oragahn wrote:Didn't know that. Where is it written?Lucky wrote:Why should we assume this when we are often told otherwise? The ICS themselves tell us that waste heat can't be transfered from the guns to the the neutrino radiators easily.
Same here, where is it written? I never noticed that the TL guns had to ejected super hot fluids to cool down, although it's a far more efficient way to cool down than mere passive radiation, such as it goes with cooling panels.If the energy could be transfered the lasers would not have massive heat sinks built into them, and eject vaporized coolant.
Forced radiations like for massive amounts of neutrinos would however make much more sense
Solar panels would only be good in low tech hard science fiction.On top of that, the turbo in turbolaser comes from the fact that turbolasers have their own turbine generator, but then again T.I.E. and the Rebel Blockade Runner seemingly had solar panels according to the scripts as well.
I honestly think solar panels should show up more often in Sci-Fi.
They really make no sense for TIEs.
Solar panels per se wouldn't acquire enough power for anything useful safe lighting up the cockpit and perhaps heating it up as well.
It's quite rubbish.
It would only be a good idea for ships used to operate much closer to stars.
TIEs are, on the contrary, certainly never going to operate in such zones. Deep space action is a large part of their theater of operation when transported there, otherwise they're just going to be deployed around worlds which would receive, on the average, as much light as Earth. That is, nothing useful here.
The sheer waste heat from the tiny reactors alone would provide much more heat.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Nope a thousand times.Lucky wrote:Lucky wrote: Why should we assume this when we are often told otherwise? The ICS themselves tell us that waste heat can't be transfered from the guns to the the neutrino radiators easily.Mr. Oragahn wrote: Didn't know that. Where is it written?http://www.phombo.com/technology/star-w ... l/popular/Mr. Oragahn wrote: Same here, where is it written? I never noticed that the TL guns had to ejected super hot fluids to cool down, although it's a far more efficient way to cool down than mere passive radiation, such as it goes with cooling panels.
Forced radiations like for massive amounts of neutrinos would however make much more sense
Notice the bottom right corner that gives close ups of the DBY-827. Notice how the guns have their own built in cooling systems. Notice how those cooling systems are not neutrino radiators.
I'd have to disagree. Solar panels make perfect sense in any Sci-Fi setting even if they are only for backup power. Solar should at least be able to handle life support and minimal lighting if you are in a habitable zone.Mr. Oragahn wrote: Solar panels would only be good in low tech hard science fiction.
If you have a magical substance like Dilithium or Naquadah you can get insane outputs from solar panels if only by using them to power a secondary reaction.
The only reason solar panels are a bad idea for TIE is that they give the fighter poor arrow dynamics, and give the fighter a huge profile.Mr. Oragahn wrote: They really make no sense for TIEs.
Solar panels per se wouldn't acquire enough power for anything useful safe lighting up the cockpit and perhaps heating it up as well.
It's quite rubbish.
It would only be a good idea for ships used to operate much closer to stars.
TIEs are, on the contrary, certainly never going to operate in such zones. Deep space action is a large part of their theater of operation when transported there, otherwise they're just going to be deployed around worlds which would receive, on the average, as much light as Earth. That is, nothing useful here.
The sheer waste heat from the tiny reactors alone would provide much more heat.
Even a mere kit bashed combustion engine using crappy fuel would be far more powerful and efficient to kickstart any more complex reaction.
It just does not make sense unless you count on it as a secondary source of power, a backup, when you're big trouble.
The panels make sense to cool down stuff and even there radiation has severe limits, and unfortunately for Saxton the ICS, I think, did show the TIE wings to be rather not so advanced for him to cram one of his magical uber neutrino radiators.
Dynamics matter not in space, which is where TIE are primarily used.
I see no reason to believe otherwise, especially since the EU made it clear.Star Wars is a soft setting. The idea that they have to work like real life solar panels is flawed reasoning in my opinion. What is one more subtle peace of magitech?
If they're really solar panels, meant to collect solar radiations, there's just that much intensity one can get in space, even if the whole light spectrum were to be scooped.
Perhaps.I was under the impression that the suits TIE pilot used had all the life support built into it?
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Absolutely not. You are trying to appeal to magitech to make sense of what simply does not. Solar panels can only be, at best, a system of backup, because even if magitech was involved, there's a fixed intensity you can obtain in space. And let's not get started on the fact that the panels would have to face the local star perfectly to really work.Lucky wrote:You are assuming real world limitation in a fictional settings that are in many ways far more technologically advanced, and often have literal magic in the setting. If they say they do something you should take it as the truth.Mr. Oragahn wrote: Nope a thousand times.
Even a mere kit bashed combustion engine using crappy fuel would be far more powerful and efficient to kickstart any more complex reaction.
There's no way around that.
There are actually none. A combustion engine is absurdly safe. Safer than any fission, fusion or antimatter engine as a matter of fact. Mere coal, if we really were to push it that far, still largely beats solar power. Fuels we currently use have a considerable energy density, but the power isn't as high as with fission, fusion or annihilation reactions.There are a bleep load of reason you wouldn't want to use a combustion engine in space, and solar panels require far less maintenance. The fewer moving parts the better.
Therefore, the best explanation for those large panels is not to collect power, which would be cumbersome and inefficient, but to radiate heat freely, constantly. Therefore they would not be solar panels but cooling panels.
But their sheer size would make them glaring targets in the night of space for any basic thermal imagery detection system.
The problem is that it just doesn't jive with the concept of the TIE fighter. It's minimalistic, short ranged and clearly expandable.I was thinking of solar panels being a secondary power source in most cases, but given the size of TIE solar panels they are likely a primary source along with something like fusion. It makes perfect sense to have some solar panels on a civilian ship to help save money on fuel, and baring rare cases you aren't going to run out of star light on a planet in the habitable zone. You'd think solar power would be popular on a planet like Tatooine.Mr. Oragahn wrote: It just does not make sense unless you count on it as a secondary source of power, a backup, when you're big trouble.
These panels also seriously limit the field of vision. What they could have been used for, though, would be as complex sensor suites. It would make more sense, as the mothership they're tied to would recieve all that data. In a way, the expandable TIE fighters would double as probes which the Empire has like dime a dozen.
They pretty much HAVE to be multipurpose so we can attach some more interesting functions to them. But even there, there are limits.There isn't a reason the panels can't be multipurpose. solar panels can be extremely thin.Mr. Oragahn wrote: The panels make sense to cool down stuff and even there radiation has severe limits, and unfortunately for Saxton the ICS, I think, did show the TIE wings to be rather not so advanced for him to cram one of his magical uber neutrino radiators.
However, one thing that could be useful is, as part of the idea that TIEs double as probes, the panels could emit specific types of EM radiation in certain directions (or all) for extremely intensive active scanner sweeps.
It would totally work with, for example, their role in mop up operations after a BDZ.
Another astute mind would probably have them used to enhance jamming and, therefore, increase their survival rate against infrared missiles for example.
EM radiation could be oriented by force fields.
They have torpedo boats in the EU. Sorts of militarized combat versions of the lambda shuttles, more fighter-like and cramped than majestic and diplomatic in their shape.But the Empire doesn't seem to have a craft designed for atmosphere, and the Republic used their space fighters in atmosphere.Mr. Oragahn wrote: Dynamics matter not in space, which is where TIE are primarily used.
Plus there are the skiprays, used as part of local defense forces. Many worlds actually have their own defense forces.
The problem with TIE design is that even the edge of their "wings" (panels) is completely flat. That still produces drag, but if you notice, rebel ships have wings which aren't aerodynamic at all either.
However, the size of TIE fighter panels means that aside from sheer linear flight, any manoeuver in an environment of about 1 bar is going to put them at a great disadvantage.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Sure, but none of these examples brush away the simple issue here. If these panels are solar panels, it means they're there to collect photons and perhaps some other particles like, say, protons, but I would not bet on that.Lucky wrote:Last time I checked you had to assume magitech somewhere for Star wars anyway. In the case of T.I.E. we don't know the design of the panels used so we have no idea as to how they work, and an X-Wing's reactor can't be much larger then the fusion reactor Luke had after crashing on dagobah. Those shields the Gungans used are plasma windows, and that threater shield seems to be plasma as well.Mr. Oragahn wrote: Absolutely not. You are trying to appeal to magitech to make sense of what simply does not. Solar panels can only be, at best, a system of backup, because even if magitech was involved, there's a fixed intensity you can obtain in space. And let's not get started on the fact that the panels would have to face the local star perfectly to really work.
There's no way around that.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_DjuUb0xcKGM/T ... 600/14.jpg
http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images ... matics.png
http://starwars.com/explore/encyclopedi ... ungantech/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_window
Meaning that no matter how advanced the tech is here, the limitating factor is the energy in the medium; space.
As cooling panels, they'd start to make more sense, but then again when you begin to enter the megawatt regions and above, the amounts of heat just become ridiculous if you count on normal (low-tech) radiations. That's why I said that for the energies involved, the Saxtonian model would be a better choice, on paper, in that it would be a forced radiation system: energy would be transported to the panels and forcedly transfered to particles shot into space from the panels; basically the neutrino radiator model, which isn't stupid per se if it weren't automatically used to legitimize the biggatons.
Same goes with fission or fusion, or even annihilation. All these reactions are non-perfect by a huge degree.I.C.E spit out large amounts of toxic substances that you don't want in an inclosed area.Mr. Oragahn wrote: There are actually none. A combustion engine is absurdly safe. Safer than any fission, fusion or antimatter engine as a matter of fact. Mere coal, if we really were to push it that far, still largely beats solar power. Fuels we currently use have a considerable energy density, but the power isn't as high as with fission, fusion or annihilation reactions.
And who gives? Most of the travel happens in space. In atmosphere, repulsorlift does most of the job, reactors only producing minimal amounts of power, almost being on idle in comparison to what they'd be pushed to in space.
There's just no way around it.
Solar power is ridiculously low.
There could be. Like I suggested, they'd be fantastic if they had been associated to sensor and jamming suites.There is no good explanation for why TIE have the huge panels.Mr. Oragahn wrote: Therefore, the best explanation for those large panels is not to collect power, which would be cumbersome and inefficient, but to radiate heat freely, constantly. Therefore they would not be solar panels but cooling panels.
But their sheer size would make them glaring targets in the night of space for any basic thermal imagery detection system.
In another version of the universe, they could have even been associated to shield projectors: they could literally form a prism that would protect the cabin and the arms linking the panels to the main section, with a bit of shielding on the external side of the panels as well. For ships without hyperdrives, they'd actually be fantastic, able to put more hardware and power into network and combat systems.
I disagree. In universe, it can be given a very good use. Heck, even with megajoule level weapons and similar levels of power production, they'd be very interesting as cooling systems. But the main problem, as you point out, is that they're labelled "solar fins".Mr. Oragahn wrote: These panels also seriously limit the field of vision. What they could have been used for, though, would be as complex sensor suites. It would make more sense, as the mothership they're tied to would recieve all that data. In a way, the expandable TIE fighters would double as probes which the Empire has like dime a dozen.As much as you don't like it, the large fins are called solar fins, and the Rebel Blockade Runner seen in the beginning of Episode 4 had one until it was blown off by a Star Destroyer.http://www.imsdb.com/scripts/Star-Wars-A-New-Hope.html wrote: Three TIE fighters, Vader flanked by two wingmen, dive in a tight formation. The sun reflects off their dominate solar fins as they loop toward the Death Star's surface.
It is rather pointless to try to rationalize the TIE design seen in episode 4. It doesn't even make sense in universe. Ultimately you end up with it looked cool to the designer being the reason for most stupid things in Star Wars.
With a couple kilowatts per square meter if you collect about everything possible as electro magnetic radiation goes, you don't end far.
Let's not forget that nothing really indicated that they were that cheap and expandable in the movies, aside from the fact that they were piloted by mooks, by the bad guys.They're solar fins. the more bells and whistles you add the less cheap and expendable a TIE becomes.Mr. Oragahn wrote: They pretty much HAVE to be multipurpose so we can attach some more interesting functions to them. But even there, there are limits.
However, one thing that could be useful is, as part of the idea that TIEs double as probes, the panels could emit specific types of EM radiation in certain directions (or all) for extremely intensive active scanner sweeps.
It would totally work with, for example, their role in mop up operations after a BDZ.
Another astute mind would probably have them used to enhance jamming and, therefore, increase their survival rate against infrared missiles for example.
EM radiation could be oriented by force fields.
Those shields don't seem to block any EMR in the visible light range and may likely let other bandwidths pass through as well.If one wants an effective ECM system one need look no further then Star Wars shields. Just turning on Shields in star Wars should cut down your radar cross section. Cold Plasma stealth systems are kinda cool like that, and plasma can be used to enhance aerodynamics.
Since visible light can pass through, mere laser pointers in that band would solve the problem. All it would take to blind these sensors then would be to shine light up their lenses. :)
This case is just the exception if you'd ask me.But those designs are conspicuously missing from the movies, and they could have easily been added into Return of the Jedi after all. I seem to recall the Sentinel landing craft was added to the movies after all.Mr. Oragahn wrote: They have torpedo boats in the EU. Sorts of militarized combat versions of the lambda shuttles, more fighter-like and cramped than majestic and diplomatic in their shape.
Plus there are the skiprays, used as part of local defense forces.
We see the Empire use TIE in atmosphere at Bespin. That certainly seems to be the place to use something with better aerodynamics.
That is partly why the Republic, CIS, and Empire could have such small armies/navies. Most planets have a defense force of some sort to fend off pirates and such.Mr. Oragahn wrote: Many worlds actually have their own defense forces.
But cannot suck for terrible terrible reasons. We have to assume a minimum level of intelligence behind the design of the ship. Because otherwise, we're almsot pretending the equivalent of car designers making square wheels are realizing that they're not fit for driving.TIE suck, it is something repeatedly stated in the EU, and shown in the movies. Even the Empire was willing to admit the TIE was a bad design, and had been working on a replacement before episode 4 took place as Vader's personal TIE implies.Mr. Oragahn wrote: The problem with TIE design is that even the edge of their "wings" (panels) is completely flat. That still produces drag, but if you notice, rebel ships have wings which aren't aerodynamic at all either.
However, the size of TIE fighter panels means that aside from sheer linear flight, any manoeuver in an environment of about 1 bar is going to put them at a great disadvantage.
The TIE/IN and TIE/D Defender are vast improvements though there really should only be one replacement.