Warp Speeds List

For polite and reasoned discussion of Star Wars and/or Star Trek.
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2046
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Re: Warp Speeds List

Post by 2046 » Tue Feb 28, 2017 8:22 pm

359 wrote:It's been a while.

TNG: "Interface":

Picard: "Geordi, the Hera's last reported location was three hundred light years away. How could it end up here?"

LaForge: "The Hera passed near this planet just ten days ago. There's an awful lot of subspace disturbance in the atmosphere. The ship could've accidentally picked up some residual traces that directed the funnel right back here."

Holt: "Nothing at all. I wish I could say I was just calling to catch up on things. Nine days ago, the Hera left here on a routine courier mission. We were in contact with them for five of those days. Then the ship disappeared without a trace."

From the first quote we know that the Hera disappeared 300 ly from the planet the Enterprise and that the Hera had passed by the planet 10 days before the middle of the episode. The episode could take place over one or two days, but we'll stick with one to get the smallest value possible. We also know that the ship disappeared five days after leaving DS3, where it arrived 9 days prior. This means that she had passed the planet four days earlier. Assuming a straight-line course away from the planet, to minimize distance traveled and thus the estimate, this is an average speed of 26,700c.

Warp: Unknown, 6?; Distance: 300 ly; Time: 4 Days.
Reviewing the transcript, the episode seems to move at a fast pace . . . two hours until the probe's in place, Picard's order for two hours until a plan for the Raman recovery, et cetera. There is no mention of the end of the 72 hour search noted at the beginning of the episode, either.

It is stated that the Hera's last known position was 300LY away, and then (a couple of hours later, -ish) that the planet was passed ten days prior by the Hera. That suggests a minimum of 30LY/day (11,000c[/I)).

I think what you're suggesting is that the Hera passed by the gas giant *after* departing DS3 and not before. But, I don't think that can be argued conclusively. Either way, though, the gas giant must be within a couple dozen light-years of DS3, give or take.

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Re: Warp Speeds List

Post by 359 » Tue Feb 28, 2017 9:42 pm

TNG: "Interface" Correction:


2046, you are right I did make a mistake, and I apologize for the gobbledygook of a post that I apparently wrote. I swapped the 4-day and 6-day intervals in my head while doing the math. Here, I'll lay it out more clearly than I did in my earlier post:


[D = Day of the episode]

T = D-10: The Hera passes the planet.
T = D-9: The Hera departs DS3.
T = D-4: DS3 looses contact with the Hera (5 days after departing DS3 @T = D-9) (Last know position established by DS3 at this time)
T = D-0: Last known position 300 ly away from planet (@T = D-4).

Thus the travel time for the Hera from the planet to her last known position is (D-4)-(D-10) = 6 days. This results in an average speed of 18,250c.

This assumes that she traveled in a straight line away from the planet the entire time and had zero layover time at star base, either factor would serve to increase the average speed. (All assumptions serve to minimize travel speed and simplify calculations)

Warp: Unknown, 6?; Distance: 300 ly; Time: 6 Days.


The Hera most definitely passed by the planet before DS3, unless there is a night between Admiral Holt's message and Picard's statement of distance in the briefing at which point it could go either way, but in the same day. I suggest the possibility of a night passing because watching the episode gives one a feeling of time passing, between LaForge talking to his father, Data's reading of poetry with pauses, various time consuming movements of the probe, medical treatment, counseling sessions, briefings giving hours to generate solutions, and numerous locations of characters. But for simplicity's sake and achieving a solid value I assume there is no such passage of time.

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Re: Warp Speeds List

Post by 2046 » Tue Feb 28, 2017 10:16 pm

No apology needed. As you can see, I got myself confused, too, by assuming 300LY in ten days. That figure ignores the fact that the Hera stopped traveling (as far as Starfleet's last known position) four days prior to Holt's report to Picard, so you're right.

That said, I am sticking with the fast episode chronology per the transcript, pending visual confirmation. Picard and Holt talk in orbit of the gas giant, LaForge is burned but continues after a couple of hours as Riker moves the probe, sees his mother and gets shocked, then in Sickbay Picard orders a plan in two hours. Then there is a plan briefing, after which . . . well, it isn't relevant anymore because ten days was from the briefing.

Unless (a) it took much more time to get the probe in place initially than suggested or (b) Geordi was unconscious for a long period (which would've likely resulted in the Raman being brought up while he was out), the Raman recovery briefing was a few hours after the Holt report, pending aforementioned visual confirmations.

So, six days is solid, and I doubt it is more.

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Re: Warp Speeds List

Post by 359 » Tue Feb 28, 2017 11:14 pm

Oh I agree 6 day solid. I just think that an argument could be made for less, not that I would agree with such a position.

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Re: Warp Speeds List

Post by 2046 » Tue Feb 28, 2017 11:47 pm

Also notable is that Holt described it as a routine courier mission, shortly before the warp five speed limit. To my preferred way of thinking that doesn't involve warp highways, 18,000 represents a pretty high warp factor . . . rather high nines, if I remember correctly.

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Re: Warp Speeds List

Post by 359 » Tue Mar 07, 2017 9:30 am

VOY: "Hunters":

Kim: "That's all we got. It looks like the bulk of the transmission is lodged in one of the relay stations."
Janeway: "Can you tell which one?"
Kim: It's about three point eight light years from us on a heading of two seven four mark one three."
Janeway: "Set a course, Tom."

...
Janeway: "Captain's log, stardate 51501.4. After two days at high warp, we're close enough to the relay station to see it on long range visual sensors."


Voyager crosses 3.8 ly in 4 days at high warp for a speed of 347c.

There is a brief layover as they investigate a victim of the Hirogen, but that's short enough that it shouldn't affect the travel time on the order of days.

Warp: High, 8-9?; Distance: 3.8 ly; Time: 4 days.

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Re: Warp Speeds List

Post by 2046 » Tue Mar 07, 2017 5:39 pm

Much as I disapprove of warp highways, this example does feature a gravimetric field extending two light-years. Given that a trip of four light-years at even slightly-high warp should take hours and not days, then ... without the gravimetric field covering half the trip ... we would either have to conclude that she misspoke on the timing* or that the body recovery and return took an unusually long time.

* Regarding misspeaking on the timing, the two days at high warp should, in context, really be a reference to those last two light-years, should it not? Otherwise whenever she says "we just spent X time at X speed" we'd be stuck acknowledging that she may very well be leaving out side-trips, diversions, et cetera, which gets messy fast.

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Re: Warp Speeds List

Post by 359 » Tue Mar 07, 2017 6:55 pm

2046 wrote:* Regarding misspeaking on the timing, the two days at high warp should, in context, really be a reference to those last two light-years, should it not? Otherwise whenever she says "we just spent X time at X speed" we'd be stuck acknowledging that she may very well be leaving out side-trips, diversions, et cetera, which gets messy fast.
I had considered that, but it wouldn't make sense linguistically.

Consider you were taking a road trip across the US. Now obviously this isn't one continuous drive, it takes over a week to go from coast-to-coast, you'd have layovers for sleep, food, and probably some sight seeing. Now you finally arrive, one week later, and you want to post about it on some social media. You wouldn't say "After a day's travel I'm finally on the east coast!" just because you stopped to sleep the night before. You would say "After a week on the highway I've finally reached the east coast!" because that's how long it's taken you to reach your destination.

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Re: Warp Speeds List

Post by 2046 » Tue Mar 07, 2017 8:14 pm

Well, I'm not sure car travel is the best analogue. That's a vehicle requiring active piloting with no accommodations, so rest stops, fuel stops, and overnight hotel stays are assumed. That was what made Crazy NASA Lady in the diaper so awesome a few years ago. Similarly, old train trips that required frequent stops for water and axle lube would also make a bad model.

Nautical and aeronautical analogies would work best, inasmuch as "X time-units at Y velocity" implies a nonstop flight. We can maybe squeeze in the quick stop, but certainly there is no solid defense that comes to mind against an opposing claim that 1ly/day was the minimum value.

Obviously, I think that's a crap figure (not that 3.8ly/2d was better, insofar as consistency with most other values), but still…

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Re: Warp Speeds List

Post by 359 » Thu Mar 09, 2017 3:17 am

You are correct that it is an imperfect analogy, hence it is analogy. The mode of transportation is irrelevant, it is simply that one would not state the duration of a journey as anything other than the complete duration of the journey. But if you require a nautical analogy here is one:

A man is sailing from one continent to another. However, he makes a stop at an island because he wants to go surfing. Two days later he arrives at his destination and writes a note home, it would read "After two months on the sea I've reached the Americas!" It would not read "After a two days at sea I've finally reached the Americas!"

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Re: Warp Speeds List

Post by 2046 » Thu Mar 09, 2017 6:38 pm

"At sea" is different than "at full sail" or "steaming at Ahead Full". Janeway could say "we spent seven years in the Delta Quadrant trying to get home", which is generally true, but "we spent seven years at warp speed" would not, and has a different meaning.

Anyway, it's a nit that could be picked by an avid nitpicker, but given that the difference is between "way slower than normal" and "also, but slightly more, way slower than normal", it's no biggie either way.

And as always, great catch.

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Re: Warp Speeds List

Post by 2046 » Thu Apr 06, 2017 3:09 pm

Found some more examples in an old blog post of mine . . . Google claimed the Macrocosm amd Tsunkatse ones aren't in the thread, but I didn't manually confirm.

"The Enemy"[TNG3] . . . Tomalak tried to hail the crashed scoutship to let them know that their distress signal had been received. He was entering the Neutral Zone and would be at their location in six hours. When he talked to Picard moments later, Picard revealed that he had intercepted the transmission, and identified Galorndon Core as being half a light-year inside Federation space. Moments later, Tomalak stated that he would be at the Federation border of the Neutral Zone in five hours. That suggests that his ship would have taken an hour to go the extra half light-year to Galorndon Core. (Possibly Tomalak intended to make the trip at the best cloaked speed that would allow him to avoid detection . . . as of 2371 ("The Die is Cast"[DSN3]), the best such speed was warp six.) In any case, the clear velocity in the incident is .5ly/hr, or 4380c.

The above would also suggest that the Neutral Zone was 2.5ly wide near Galorndon Core.

{…} At least in Voyager, shuttles were pretty consistent in being able to travel above 500c.

"Macrocosm"[VOY3] . . . Janeway and Neelix arrive via shuttle to rendezvous with Voyager, but it isn't there. Janeway uses the shuttle's sensors and detects it adrift over a light-year away. After boarding the ship, they find an abandoned meal that Janeway determines was replicated eleven hours ago, along with Neelix's morning show still playing after having been activated at about the same time. Assuming people weren't happily watching Neelix's morning show and replicating meals while the ship was adrift, then the shuttle must have travelled over a light-year in less than eleven hours. Assuming one light-year and ten hours as the travel time, then the shuttle's velocity must have been .1 ly/hr. That's 2.4 ly/day, or 876c.

"Tsunkatse"[VOY6] . . . Seven and Tuvok intend to take a shuttle to study a "micronebula approximately one point six light years from here on the verge of collapse". Seven notes in the next scene that they anticipate being gone for approximately 48 hours. That requires the shuttle to be capable of travelling no less than 1.6 light-years per day. That's 0.0667ly/hr, or 584c.

It makes sense to presume that Janeway had the pedal closer to the floor in "Macrocosm" than it would've been in "Tsunkatse". At such a speed, Picard could've had the Romulan on a shuttle and at the Federation border of the Neutral Zone in time to meet the warbird upon its arrival, five hours after the first conversation with Tomalak.

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Re: Warp Speeds List

Post by Iscander » Fri Apr 07, 2017 12:57 am

For those who like their evidence visual, I didn't see this posted yet.
Romulan Scoutship is capable of 340c while running under fire

TNG S3E10 "The Defector"

http://tng.trekcore.com/hd/albums/3x10/ ... hd_032.jpg

Also the Enterprise is doing 0.22 c while on patrol

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Re: Warp Speeds List

Post by 359 » Fri Apr 07, 2017 3:16 am

Ooh, nice one.

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Re: Warp Speeds List

Post by 2046 » Fri Apr 07, 2017 6:20 pm

Regarding "The Defector", are we sure the ship was ever at warp when observed? I thought it was at impulse the whole time we saw it or had scan display of it.

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