Warp Speeds List

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2046
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Re: Warp Speeds List

Post by 2046 » Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:41 am

The Lonka event suggests only 54.7 times warp 2 = warp 7, which is seems odd and doesn't even fit the Okuda chart.

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Re: Warp Speeds List

Post by Mike DiCenso » Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:16 pm

So? In the original series backstage charts, warp 7 is 343c while warp 2 is 8c, a difference of 42 times. In the TNG chart it is a difference of 65 times (10c and 656c). So 54 times falls nicely between the two. But all of that is academic, the fact is that the warp speeds have very rarely followed the charts, and in this particular case, we find evidence for very high warp speed in the tens of thousands of c to hundreds of thousands of c at warp 2 and 7, when it should only be 10c and 656c respectively according to the charts.
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Re: Warp Speeds List

Post by 2046 » Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:45 am

It would be most consistent to have low warp be pretty slow.

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Re: Warp Speeds List

Post by Mike DiCenso » Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:28 pm

Relative to what? We know in TOS of examples, such as "Arena" where warp 2 was sufficient to travel across 500 parsecs in a reasonable enough time, and TNG's "Where Silence Has Lease" where warp 2 was sufficient again to travel across 5 parsecs in a very short span of time.

Most of the high-speed examples given in this thread fall into the category of having occurred in well-charted space, and we know from VOY that the better your knowledge of an area of space, the faster you can go.
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Re: Warp Speeds List

Post by Lucky » Fri Nov 30, 2012 5:43 am

It would be interesting if this data was graphed.

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Re: Warp Speeds List

Post by 359 » Fri Nov 30, 2012 7:58 am

Three graphs, scaled to show various levels shown (million, hundreds of thousands, and tens of thousands), are attached below. I put in all of the values from this thread.

NOTE:I used 5ly for TNG: "Allegiance" because that is the normal minimum distance between adjacent solar systems outside the galactic core.
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Re: Warp Speeds List

Post by Mike DiCenso » Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:52 pm

There are a few more things you should factor into your warp factors analysis, 359. First off is critical information from several VOY episodes that provide important context to the original "Caretaker" estimate and subsequent ones that the trip would take 70 years to reach home from over 70 light years.

"Year of Hell, Part 1" [VOY, season 4]

JANEWAY: Space, the great unknown, Only now we're going to know it a little better. Harry?

CHAKOTAY: Before there were maps and globes, let alone radar and subspace sensors, mariners navigated by the stars. We're returning to that tried and true method, but this time there's a difference.

JANEWAY: Ensign Kim and Seven of Nine have merged Starfleet and Borg ingenuity to create this new technology, and I'm sure I speak for the entire crew when I say, thank you. Now, how the hell does it work?

SEVEN: Astrometric sensors measure the radiative flux of up to three billion stars simultaneously. The computer then calculates our position relative to the centre of the galaxy.

KIM: This mapping technology is ten times more accurate than what we've been using. Seven, will you do the honours? We've plotted a new course home.

SEVEN: By my estimates this trajectory will eliminate five years from your journey.

NEELIX: Our journey. Nice work, Seven.


"Year of Hell" establishes that the better your navigational data, the faster you can go through an area of space, even over a very large distance. This helps to also explain the huge discrepancy between warp values with most of the higher-end examples occurring in the Federation or other well-charted areas. This is not the only time this happens, either:

"Hope and Fear [VOY, Season 4]"
ADMIRAL HAYES [on monitor]: Apologies from everyone at Starfleet Command. We've had our best people working around the clock, trying to find a wormhole, a new means of propulsion, anything to get you home. But despite our best efforts. I know it's not what you were hoping, but we've sent you all the data we've collected on the Delta Quadrant. With any luck, you'll find at least some part of it useful. Maybe enough to shave a few years off your journey. Safe journey. We hope to see you soon.

This is the real message that Starfleet sent to Voyager via the Hirogen subspace relay network, but had been intercepted and altered by Arturis, an alien out for revenge against Voyager for having interfered with the Species 8472-Borg war. What is interesting is that Admiral Hayes would have known of the 5 light years being shaved off some 6 months earlier in "Year of Hell", so this not only reaffirms that improved data nets you higher speeds, but that Voyager has the potential of more such improvements along the way. If this information sent by Starfleet yielded any improvements, it would shave at least another couple years off the trip. Q gives Janeway just such an improvement much later on after Voyager has traveled more than 30,000 light years:


"Q2" [VOY, season 7]
Q: Oh, before I leave. (gives her a PADD) I did a little homework for you. Consider it a thank you for everything you did for Junior.

JANEWAY: Not that I don't appreciate it, but this will only take a few years off our journey. Why not send us all the way?

Q: What sort of an example would I be setting for my son if I did all the work for you?


So once again, Voyager's trip home can, at any point be reduced with improved navigational data. This hopefully helps to reconciled the vast differences in speed seen throughout all of Trek.

Secondly, we have another high-speed trip by the E-D from TNG's "Conspiracy":

"Conspiracy" [TNG, Season 1]

TRYLA: Have you noticed anything about Starfleet Command lately? Anything unusual?

PICARD: No. But we've been on the outer rim for a while. We haven't had much contact with them.

KEEL: Some of us have seen strange patterns emerging. Unusual orders. High-ranking officials backing irrational proposals.


The E-D has been on the "outer rim" for some time. The outer rim of what? The Milky Way Galaxy's edge? The edge of Federation space? Exploration territory? After the death of Keel Walker and destruction of his ship, Picard decides to return to Earth and investigate:

LAFORGE: Approaching Earth, sir.

PICARD: Standard orbit, Mister La Forge.

LAFORGE: Standard orbit, sir.


So the E-D arrives back at Earth after an unspecified amount of time. If we assume that the E-D was merely at the edge of Federation space, then it follows that the trip occurred across as much as 4,000 light years, and given than this only seems to have taken a few days with no stops along the way, no more than a week considering how this episode's events take place well within season one and the following week is the final episode of the season, "The Neutral Zone" and the events of "We'll Always Have Paris" the week before bracket it fairly well. So no more than a week's time across as much as 4,000 light years gives us a speed of 208,571.43c at an unstated warp velocity. And this is really pretty conservative given the assumptions. If the E-D was much further out, and the time occurred over just 2-4 days, then 700,000 to 1,000,000c are quite possible.
-Mike
Last edited by Mike DiCenso on Fri Nov 30, 2012 7:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Warp Speeds List

Post by Praeothmin » Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:57 pm

Mike, about Voyager's speed, we must not forget the many times we hear of the ship traveling at warp 6, or Janeway ordering the ship under way at warp 6...
Which means the calculated 1000c would be most likely for Warp 6...

And in TNG, except for the occasional emergency, they often used low Warp speeds for their travels...

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Re: Warp Speeds List

Post by Mike DiCenso » Sat Dec 01, 2012 6:08 pm

I'm well aware of that, Praeo. But that brings up other problems since the ship has been described as traveling much faster than that at lower warp speeds. Another issue is that warp six would then be a little over 2.5 times faster than the non-canon backstage charts says it should be.
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Re: Warp Speeds List

Post by 359 » Sun Dec 02, 2012 5:51 pm

Warp being described as faster at lower values is not really an issue, (actually it is, but it's a diffrent issue altogether.) most values are inconsistent with each other anyway. That is the point of collecting a large amount of data, to determinte a reasonable scale for warp speeds given what is shown in the show. Just because 1000c at warp 6 is slower than some value at warp two dosen't make the warp 6 value incorrect. It just means that, as usual, Star Trek shows inconsistent warp speeds.

Mike DiCenso wrote:"Year of Hell" establishes that the better your navigational data, the faster you can go through an area of space, even over a very large distance. This helps to also explain the huge discrepancy between warp values with most of the higher-end examples occurring in the Federation or other well-charted areas. This is not the only time this happens, either:
While better navigational data may reduce your journey, is it because it lets you travel faster, or is it that good data lets you plot a better course avoiding things that will slow you down? Probably both.

Still, data dependent speed can not explain the wide ranges of values. If warp were increased 100 or 1000 times with good data, that woul allows even the Kazon to have overtaken Voyager with ease because they would be traveling so much faster. This would have happened many times throughout the series. Another time is the in the Dominion war, when in each other's territory no one had a distinct advantage in speed. So while good data may have some effect, it will not explain the whole range of differences.
Last edited by 359 on Sun Dec 02, 2012 6:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Warp Speeds List

Post by Mike DiCenso » Sun Dec 02, 2012 6:19 pm

Five years, plus at least 2 or 3 years were shaved off of an originally stated 75 year trip home that way, and the implication in "Hope and Fear" is that the Starfleet data may have shaved even more off. So at least a decade, which is pretty good, and it could happen at any point of the journey. In fact, if you follow the estimates they give, the distance shortens from 75 down to 70 by the time of "Eye of the Needle" in season one, well before "Year of Hell", and probably due to Neelix guiding them and trading for local star charts.

Based on the redrawn course trajectory shown in YoH, and the fact that they could shorten the trip with good navigational data at any point in the trip, I would say that the improvements were as much local, not simply them straightening the overall flight path out.

The real point being is that warp drive speeds is not cut and dried the way people think it is, and the navigational issue explains a great deal why we seen the million c plus speeds in episodes like "The Chase", but Voyager needs to take decades to get back across the galaxy when the speeds of even a few tens of thousands of c should get them back in a few years.
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Re: Warp Speeds List

Post by Socar » Sun Dec 02, 2012 10:38 pm

In regards to TNG's "Conspiracy", according to the script (not canon, but useful for seeing what they were thinking), it's stated that after they reach Earth, "Picard and Riker exchange glances. This is a moment they've been thinking about for three days." This would seem to lend credibility to the idea that it only took a short period of time to make it home.

On the other hand, we need to be careful of reading too much into the "We've been on the outer rim for awhile" line. This could simply mean that they had previously been on the outer rim for some time, and just recently have come back into the more inner regions.

A couple of things to note:

It was stated that they were en route to Pacifica. Geordi says that it will take 22 hours and 14 minutes to arrive at their present speed, and afterwards Riker gives the order to increase to warp six, implying that they are fairly close. What do we know about Pacifica? Unfortunately, not a lot strictly canon speaking. In TNG's "Manhunt" it's stated that a Federation conference was being held on Pacifica in regards to the status of the Antedeans being admitted into the UFP, implying that it might actually be a somewhat inner Federation world. In the non-canon Star Trek: Star Charts (but hey, we've been talking about the non-canon warp charts, so why not?), Pacifica is approximately 250 light-years from Earth.

They were then diverted to Dytallix B. Again, we don't know much about it, but we know that it is an established Federation mining location by the Dytallix Mining Company. We also know that it is "in the nearby Mira system", according to Data. The Mira system, from the TOS episode "This Side of Paradise" is the location of Omicron Ceti III, a planet affiliated with the UFP and colonized, which again, implies that by the 24th century, its location could be considered somewhat more interior.

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Re: Warp Speeds List

Post by Mike DiCenso » Mon Dec 03, 2012 8:02 am

Several issues that I see that I must counter. First off, while the writer's intent and the as filmed episode seem to line up in regards to the passage of time, the issue of when and where things are do not match up with the suppositions.

Take the case of the meeting on Dytallix between Picard, Keel Walker, and the other captains. Let's look at it more closely. Here's the log entry at the episode's start:

First officer's log, stardate 41775.5. We are en route to the ocean world of Pacifica. While our mission is scientific in nature, we look forward to the warm blue waters and fine beaches that make Pacifica a jewel of the galaxy.

The world is known ahead of time, but it seems strange that the E-D is going there for science, if the world is so well known. If the E-D came from the outer rim of the Federation, it would also place worlds, like Beta Renner system where the Anticans and the Selay are located out there as well along with Starbase 74 and the Binars. So it's still likely that Pacifica, which is on the way in or is located in the middle regions of Federation territory a good distance from Earth, regardless of the non-canon Charts say so. The Charts distance, by the way, combined with the non-canon script's intent would give the E-D a speed in excess of 30,000c.

Dytallix Mining Company being located in the inner regions also doesn't make that much sense in the given situation, as it had to be isolated enough to provide the secret captains' meeting sufficient cover, and on top of that we also know from TOS' "Where No Man Has Gone Before", that Federation mining outposts have been located as far away as the literal edge of the galaxy.

So I see nothing here that really helps beyond the fact that the E-D was at the edge of the Federation or the galaxy, might've been inbound or not. Pacifica could be anywhere in between there and the remoteness of Dytallix suggests they were still very out of the way.

Just taking things at face value, if the E-D was moving inwards from the outer regions, it still suggests high speeds given the 8,000 light year span of the Federation as given in ST:FC along with the wall chart first seen behind Remmick in "Conspiracy" and used later in DS9's "n the Hands of the Prophets" that suggests thousands of light years as well. After all, the ship made it's way inbound over a few months over thousands of light years, and they had many adventures. This is not unusual when compared to the E-1701's TOS adventures zipping from hundreds of light years out to Earth in less than a year or going out to the literal edges of the galaxy and back again, all again within a year. It also meshes up with later in TNG when just five months after the events of BoBW and "Family", the E-D can be over 2,000 light years away for the events of the episode "First Contact".
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Re: Warp Speeds List

Post by Lucky » Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:19 am

359 wrote:Three graphs, scaled to show various levels shown (million, hundreds of thousands, and tens of thousands), are attached below. I put in all of the values from this thread.

NOTE:I used 5ly for TNG: "Allegiance" because that is the normal minimum distance between adjacent solar systems outside the galactic core.
Is the graph saying that warp 2 is as faster then higher supposed faster warp factors?

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Re: Warp Speeds List

Post by 359 » Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:52 pm

To a certain extent, yes. It shows that in one instance warp two was described as faster than a higher warp value was described in another instance. Nothing requires that all of the values will be consistent. (This is the "Diffrent issue" I mentioned above")

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