It's interesting how those boxes seem to overlap. Does each box represent a political entity?Mike DiCenso wrote:The problem is that you provided links to Geoffrey T. Mandel's Star Trek Maps, which while very nicely done, is very much non-canon as is almost any map and information from the the DS9 TM. The only canon map of the Federation is the one graphic that was seen in TNG's "Conspiracy" and "In the Hands of the Prophets". Anything else is suspect. As for the Star Trek version of the Milky Way, we have this from TNG's "The Chase":
When the HD version of this comes out, we'll be able to get a better look at the map, and we might be able to compare it to the "Conspiracy" map's gradation numbers to see where the Federation is located in that overall galaxy map, and if any of those weird shapes are really the political borders for the Federation and other powers, or something else entirely since there are a lot of overlapping lines there.
-Mike
Warp Speeds List
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Re: Warp Speeds List
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Re: Warp Speeds List
Good question. The answer right now is "we don't know for sure".
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Re: Warp Speeds List
I just noticed this a little while ago.
Where no man has gone before
[Bridge]
PICARD: All stop.
LAFORGE: Answering all stop, Captain.
DATA: According to the instruments, sir, our speed never exceeded warp one point five.
LAFORGE: All stopped, sir.
PICARD: Yes, but where is this place?
(Lights are dancing in a blue scene)
DATA: Where none have gone before.
Captain's log, stardate 41263.3. Instead of returning to our own galaxy, the Enterprise has gone forward to a place in the universe which is uncharted and unknown. Our present position puts us at over a billion light years from our galaxy.
Where no man has gone before
[Bridge]
PICARD: All stop.
LAFORGE: Answering all stop, Captain.
DATA: According to the instruments, sir, our speed never exceeded warp one point five.
LAFORGE: All stopped, sir.
PICARD: Yes, but where is this place?
(Lights are dancing in a blue scene)
DATA: Where none have gone before.
Captain's log, stardate 41263.3. Instead of returning to our own galaxy, the Enterprise has gone forward to a place in the universe which is uncharted and unknown. Our present position puts us at over a billion light years from our galaxy.
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Re: Warp Speeds List
Bad example since the episode establishes that the Traveler did the work, not the E-D's innate warp capabilities, and this was noted by the crew as being highly out of spec with what was expected.
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Re: Warp Speeds List
What ever the Traveler did was done through the warp drive, and had lasting effects even when he wasn't there, or else Star Fleet would not have had them doing the same thing to the Enterprise-D. Remember the Traveler had done the same thing to other ships first with noted improvements.Mike DiCenso wrote:Bad example since the episode establishes that the Traveler did the work, not the E-D's innate warp capabilities, and this was noted by the crew as being highly out of spec with what was expected.
-Mike
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Re: Warp Speeds List
Yet we heard of no other ship travelling billions of LY under its own power, and Voyager, coming in years after TNG, still estimated it would take 70 years to reach the Federation...Lucky wrote:What ever the Traveler did was done through the warp drive, and had lasting effects even when he wasn't there, or else Star Fleet would not have had them doing the same thing to the Enterprise-D. Remember the Traveler had done the same thing to other ships first with noted improvements.Mike DiCenso wrote:Bad example since the episode establishes that the Traveler did the work, not the E-D's innate warp capabilities, and this was noted by the crew as being highly out of spec with what was expected.
-Mike
So no, in view of the known facts, what happened was indeed all done through the Traveller, and these speeds cannot be attained through Warp Engines alone...
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Re: Warp Speeds List
RIKER: It's the specs that Kosinski sent us. In my opinion, sir, they're gibberish.Lucky wrote:What ever the Traveler did was done through the warp drive, and had lasting effects even when he wasn't there, or else Star Fleet would not have had them doing the same thing to the Enterprise-D. Remember the Traveler had done the same thing to other ships first with noted improvements.
PICARD: Gibberish?
RIKER: Mister Data, would you explain?
DATA: Sir, we put Mister Kosinski's specs into the computer and ran a controlled test on them. There was no improvement in engine performance.
PICARD: Then how do you explain Starfleet's report that the same tests on the USS Ajax and on the Fearless over there, resulted in a measurable increase in propulsion.
RIKER: Our engines are new, sir. Top condition. The tests on those older ships may have simply been to straighten out some engine inefficiency.
They do not mention whether or not the effects were permanent and they do not tell us by how much, if any the ships' speeds were increased, or if they just had a efficiency issue. Also, I'm still loathe to use this as a valid example with the Traveler being involved since the E-D herself could not get back to Federation space on it's own and in all three instances could not go super fast without him.
-Mike
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Re: Warp Speeds List
Lucky wrote:What ever the Traveler did was done through the warp drive, and had lasting effects even when he wasn't there, or else Star Fleet would not have had them doing the same thing to the Enterprise-D. Remember the Traveler had done the same thing to other ships first with noted improvements.
The Traveler was acting through the ships rather then moving the ships himself. I was merely trying to point out that there is more to high warp speeds then high warp factors.Mike DiCenso wrote: RIKER: It's the specs that Kosinski sent us. In my opinion, sir, they're gibberish.
PICARD: Gibberish?
RIKER: Mister Data, would you explain?
DATA: Sir, we put Mister Kosinski's specs into the computer and ran a controlled test on them. There was no improvement in engine performance.
PICARD: Then how do you explain Starfleet's report that the same tests on the USS Ajax and on the Fearless over there, resulted in a measurable increase in propulsion.
RIKER: Our engines are new, sir. Top condition. The tests on those older ships may have simply been to straighten out some engine inefficiency.
They do not mention whether or not the effects were permanent and they do not tell us by how much, if any the ships' speeds were increased, or if they just had a efficiency issue. Also, I'm still loathe to use this as a valid example with the Traveler being involved since the E-D herself could not get back to Federation space on it's own and in all three instances could not go super fast without him.
-Mike
It is also canon that humans can alter warp fields with their minds like the Traveler. We actually see Picard alter the flow of time in "Conspiracy" when a compromised Star Fleet officer fires on him with a phaser and he manages to dodge it.
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Umm... or the guy with the phaser just flat out missed. Just because it is uncommon does not mean that it can not happen.Lucky wrote:It is also canon that humans can alter warp fields with their minds like the Traveler. We actually see Picard alter the flow of time in "Conspiracy" when a compromised Star Fleet officer fires on him with a phaser and he manages to dodge it.
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Re: Warp Speeds List
Lucky wrote:It is also canon that humans can alter warp fields with their minds like the Traveler. We actually see Picard alter the flow of time in "Conspiracy" when a compromised Star Fleet officer fires on him with a phaser and he manages to dodge it.
It's a dodge and possibly the slowest phaser beam in star trek. Phaser beams are suppose to be at least relativistic if not FTL.359 wrote:Umm... or the guy with the phaser just flat out missed. Just because it is uncommon does not mean that it can not happen.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03QKSjBiG2c
On top of that you have Wesley Crusher stopping time, and Dr. Crusher manipulating a warp bubble in "Remember Me".
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Re: Warp Speeds List
Warning! Conversation has jumped shark.
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Re: Warp Speeds List
Actually, on that first part, that the Traveler worked through a particular medium is irrelevant. We don't know what changes such a high-powered being could make to reality, and the fact that no Federation ship before or since has demonstrated the trillions of times c that what he did requires.Lucky wrote:The Traveler was acting through the ships rather then moving the ships himself. I was merely trying to point out that there is more to high warp speeds then high warp factors.
It is also canon that humans can alter warp fields with their minds like the Traveler. We actually see Picard alter the flow of time in "Conspiracy" when a compromised Star Fleet officer fires on him with a phaser and he manages to dodge it.
Your second part is really not germane to the subject at hand and as Robert Anderson pointed out, you've jumped way off topic in trying to assign a mystical ability to Star Trek humans, which I assume you brought up as a joke, rather than as a serious example for anything.
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Re: Warp Speeds List
Lucky wrote:The Traveler was acting through the ships rather then moving the ships himself. I was merely trying to point out that there is more to high warp speeds then high warp factors.
It is also canon that humans can alter warp fields with their minds like the Traveler. We actually see Picard alter the flow of time in "Conspiracy" when a compromised Star Fleet officer fires on him with a phaser and he manages to dodge it.
The Traveler is know to only be able to manipulate warp fields as far as I know.Mike DiCenso wrote:
Actually, on that first part, that the Traveler worked through a particular medium is irrelevant. We don't know what changes such a high-powered being could make to reality, and the fact that no Federation ship before or since has demonstrated the trillions of times c that what he did requires.
Your second part is really not germane to the subject at hand and as Robert Anderson pointed out, you've jumped way off topic in trying to assign a mystical ability to Star Trek humans, which I assume you brought up as a joke, rather than as a serious example for anything.
-Mike
We have two examples of humans manipulating warp fields with their minds, and one possible example. If humans can do this without realizing it then who knows what else could be subtly effecting warp travel in Star Trek. It may help explain why warp travel times can be so variable.
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Re: Warp Speeds List
Um, no. That's really reaching, Lucky.
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Re: Warp Speeds List
Not really ... After all, he just took the thread to warp with his mind.
Over an aforementioned shark, mind you, but still.
In any case, that would be equivalent to making a long car trip in minutes and never really inquiring more deeply about it. Velocities would lose meaning, which is the whole reason I don't favor warp variability to begin with.
Over an aforementioned shark, mind you, but still.
In any case, that would be equivalent to making a long car trip in minutes and never really inquiring more deeply about it. Velocities would lose meaning, which is the whole reason I don't favor warp variability to begin with.