2046 wrote: Not a basis of comparison, just an example of the concept of parity which you dismiss. Give me any two vehicles with the same mission among contemporary adversary powers and I will assume parity there, too, barring evidence to the contrary. It is the correct default assumption, barring evidence to the contrary.
Do you have evidence to the contrary? Do you have any evidence that the mission profiles of the Cardassian, Romulan, and Federation runabii are sufficiently different to produce a reasonable suggestion of wildly different top speeds? I believe that answer is no. You are therefore arguing that they *may* differ, which is true, but you have provided no evidence of such, nor do I believe you can. It therefore follows that we keep to the reasonable default assumption of parity.
What I've been trying to say is that we don't know the mission profile of the Carddi shuttle.
We know the Federation has a number of shuttle designs with a number of mission profiles. A Runabout is a general purpose, relatively short range warp capable craft, and I highly doubt the Federation would just hand over their best tech to a non-member.
You could very well be correct, but we don't know because only have implicit information that could be interpreted in either direction. While I doubt you are correct you could be correct.
2046 wrote: I've already addressed and deflated this point. Why bring it up again? Ugh.
No, "Dax" shows that when ordered to survey docked ships with high warp capability, Kira surveyed any with warp five and above per whatever source of information she was using.
Imagine you're in a sea port and a similar situation is occurring. You have on-hand a vessel which you may know to be capable of 8 knots, and someone's about to try to get away after a daring clandestine maneuver indicative of an intelligence-related raid. You have, docked, a number of vessels and you need to know their speed. Assuming you have immediate access to (a) the vessel papers and/or (b) information on their engines and screws that can be used to estimate a speed, are you simply going to look for any vessel capable of 8 knots or above? Or are you going to look for any threats which might have a higher speed than you are told they have?
Sisko's order to Kira was the latter.
My logic is sound.
1) They were looking for perspective getaway vehicles based on the belief the kidnappers knew the capabilities of the runabouts.
2) Fighting their way to safety was not an option for the kidnappers.
3) In order for the getaway craft to be able to run to safety the craft would need to be at least as fast as a runabout.
4) If the runabout was faster then the getaway craft then the getaway craft would not be able reach safety.
5) The crew of Deep Space Nine would logically first rule out all ships docked that are as fast or faster then a runabout.
6) The crew of Deep Space Nine started searching for ships that had warp 5 or higher capabilities or higher.
Therefor we can conclude that at the time of "Dax" the runabouts used on Deep Space Nine could not exceed warp 5.
2046 wrote: He's not a pilot, but he knows more about the technology than we do. He lives in it and works on it. Given all the characters would he be my first choice to ask? No, but he's the only one who's talking.
So we have conflicting information from two sources.
In Dax we have the bridge crew state runabouts are limited to about warp 5, and it is the job of the bridge crew to know what ships are capable of.
Meanwhile we have Jake sisko say something that conflicts with "Dax", but it isn't Jake's job to know what a Runabout can do, and Jake does not have a notable interest in ships or technology.
I'm sure if you asked most teens in the real world who have no real interest in cars/planes/boiency operated aquatic transport how fast random but common car/plane/boiency operated aquatic transport can go they wouldn't be able to give you anything better then a guess. Heck, I've been trained in engine and electronics repair, but I can't rattle off the capabilities of the things that use what I've been taught to fix.
2046 wrote: Here, Lucky, I'll help you a bit. Dukat, on a Runabout, pokes fun at it:
2046 wrote: DUKAT: I can't help but notice that my controls are not illuminated. Isn't it customary for both seats to be turned on so that I may pilot the craft in the event of an emergency?
SISKO: If there's an emergency, I guess you're out of luck.
DUKAT: Commander, I'm not going to sit here and steal all your little technical secrets, I promise you.
SISKO: I appreciate your assurances, but Cardassians are famous for their photographic memories.
DUKAT: So you turn off my controls so I don't have enough light to take my photograph, is that it?
{...}
DUKAT: Is that a ramscoop control or a deflector grid panel? Just curious. It really doesn't matter. Cardassian pursuit vessels are years ahead of this design.
Now, your task is to provide evidence that the Cardassian shuttle is the referenced pursuit vessel and that Dukat was not just being an arrogant Cardie and should be trusted on this topic (given that not many years before Cardassian ship tech lagged behind significantly).
What episode are those quotes from?
There is nothing stupid about using a reliable and proven design, and the Federation has newer shuttle designs in service as well. The Federation seems to exceed the Cardassians in actual starship quality.
It actually is realistic for a power such as the Federation to be using a dated design. The OH-58 is a design that was first produced in the 60s, and it is still in production. There was a replacement program for it, but it was canceled on 2008, and now there is the "armed aerial scout program" that is looking to find a replacement for the OH-58, but that is still at least a year away from being finished.
2046 wrote: Update:
The same model, seeming cockpit windows and all, is used to represent the canonically-identified Hideki class "patrol ship" in "Tribunal". While the size is not clear in this instance, the vessel could be similarly sized to the "Profit and Loss" example, meaning the larger use of the model as a brown ship in fleet actions is likely not the Hideki. However, comparing against Birds of Prey similarly docked at the station (though thanks to David Stipes one never can say much about scaling in DS9), it appears the "Profit" 'shuttle' is actually on the order of two to three times the size of the runabout, compared with the "Tacking into the Wind" Cardie shuttle that is runabout size or smaller.
So, to sum up, while I stand by the notion that one should assume parity in the absence of reason to the contrary, I withdraw the point that the "Profit and Loss" vessel is the same as the one from "Tacking" and that it is similarly-sized to the runabout. But as that was only one point of several, I see no need to change the conclusion.
The Klingons have about three classes of ship that look exactly the same, so there is president for different classes of ship looking exactly the same save for size.
That said, I have little faith in Deep Space Nine visuals being the reliable. They screwed up the defiant, the hero ship, for crying out loud.