Warp Speeds List

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Lucky
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Re: Warp Speeds List

Post by Lucky » Tue Dec 25, 2012 10:22 am

Mike DiCenso wrote:Um, no. That's really reaching, Lucky.
-Mike
I think you misunderstand what I'm trying to say. My point is that there are lots of variables that effect travel times, and some of those may not even be realized by the characters or the viewers.

From the beginning it has been implied that humans in Star Trek have latent powers.

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Re: Warp Speeds List

Post by 359 » Sat Dec 29, 2012 7:17 pm

DS9: "Vortex":

Sisko: "Expect him to return in a vessel just like this one within fifty two hours."

From DS9: "Emissary":

Sisko: "Can you get a fix on our coordinates?"
Dax: "There is a star just under five light years away. No M-class planets Computer, identify closest star system."
Computer: "Idran, a ternary system consisting of twin O-type companions."


We know from the fact that Sisko returns before departs Odo and that the round-trip is greater than 10 light years from DS9:"Emissary". So the minimum travel speed for the runabout, assuming no layover time at the station between trips (which there was), would be >1,686c.

Warp: Unknown; Time: <51 hours; Distance: >10 ly

Given the uncertainty in this instance (travel time and distance) the true value is probably many times faster.

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Re: Warp Speeds List

Post by Lucky » Sun Dec 30, 2012 7:13 am

359 wrote:DS9: "Vortex":

Sisko: "Expect him to return in a vessel just like this one within fifty two hours."

From DS9: "Emissary":

Sisko: "Can you get a fix on our coordinates?"
Dax: "There is a star just under five light years away. No M-class planets Computer, identify closest star system."
Computer: "Idran, a ternary system consisting of twin O-type companions."


We know from the fact that Sisko returns before departs Odo and that the round-trip is greater than 10 light years from DS9:"Emissary". So the minimum travel speed for the runabout, assuming no layover time at the station between trips (which there was), would be >1,686c.

Warp: Unknown; Time: <51 hours; Distance: >10 ly

Given the uncertainty in this instance (travel time and distance) the true value is probably many times faster.
Isn't the maximum warp factor for a Runabout warp 5?

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Re: Warp Speeds List

Post by 359 » Mon Dec 31, 2012 12:56 am

Yes, I believe Dax once stated their maximum speed to be warp five. However we do not know from this episode whether or not they would be at maximum for the given time frame, nor do we really know how much of the 51 hours would actualy be used. All we know is that there is a runabout traveling at some unknown warp, which will traverse more than ten light-years in less than 51 hours.

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Re: Warp Speeds List

Post by Lucky » Mon Dec 31, 2012 3:35 am

359 wrote:Yes, I believe Dax once stated their maximum speed to be warp five. However we do not know from this episode whether or not they would be at maximum for the given time frame, nor do we really know how much of the 51 hours would actualy be used. All we know is that there is a runabout traveling at some unknown warp, which will traverse more than ten light-years in less than 51 hours.
If a Runabout can only reach warp 5 then the highest warp factor they can have been at is 5. So those examples must be between warp 1 to 5. It doesn't give an exact warp factor, but it gives a narrows the possibilities.

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Re: Warp Speeds List

Post by 2046 » Wed Jan 09, 2013 3:22 am

I am aware of no such statement by Dax. The warp five concept is based exclusively on Kira's search from that early DS9 ep, and is not conclusive.

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Re: Warp Speeds List

Post by Lucky » Wed Jan 09, 2013 4:51 am

2046 wrote:I am aware of no such statement by Dax. The warp five concept is based exclusively on Kira's search from that early DS9 ep, and is not conclusive.
You seem to be correct.
So much for trusting memory Alpha. I can't find the information in any of episodes listed as sources.

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Re: Warp Speeds List

Post by 359 » Wed Jan 09, 2013 6:49 am

DS9: "Dax":

Kira: Then they may know the speed of our runabouts. If they do, they probably have a faster ship to make their escape.
Sisko: Major, survey all ships in dock with a high warp capability. Damn!
Odo: What?
Sisko: That's why we've got a residual charge in the graviton generator. They've disabled the tractor beam.
Kira: We've got eight ships in dock capable of warp five or more. Three on docking pylons, five smaller ones in the ports.


This would seem to imply that the runabouts can not exceed or reach warp five. Kira was discussing the possibility that the Kidnappers knew how fast the runabouts could travel and coming up with a list of faster ships. This list included ships capable of warp 5+ which implies that runabouts can not exceed warp five.

An interesting implication of this is that many vessels seem incapable of reaching high warp as Starfleet ships regularly do. Whether or not this extends to Federation civilian craft is an interesting question as it places standard transit speeds in this range.

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Re: Warp Speeds List

Post by 2046 » Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:24 am

In my opinion, that quote only implies that Kira took Sisko's order about looking for "high warp capability" to mean "warp five or more". Nothing there specifically mentions runabout maximum warp velocity.

Look at it this way . . . there's no reason to assume that visiting starships have some sort of advertisement of their actual maximum warp speed. Vessel registrations may include some sort of similar information and that might've been what Kira was looking at, or alternately they may have tried to scan all the ships and take a guess. But either way, the actual truth of the matter was undoubtedly hazy.

Or, put it another way . . . if I wanted to find a ship among several that might be able to outrun the Enterprise-D, I'd search first for any that might be able to exceed warp nine . . . maybe seven or eight if I want to be sure. That doesn't mean the Enterprise-D is limited to warp nine (as we know), it just means I'm narrowing down the possibilities.

Besides, given that frickin' coffins can accelerate to and maintain warp nine (from the first "Emissary" on TNG), and given the rather voluminous warp mechanics of the runabout by comparison, and given that runabouts can outpace many ships, and given that the frickin' Suliban could clock warp five in their little pods 200 years prior, the whole notion of a warp five runabout just doesn't work. It would be like the US Navy putting out a PT boat that is propelled at oar-speed.

So, the maximum speed of the Danube Class is unknown, but probably respectably high. She's more a truck than a speedboat, I'd imagine, but I doubt she's a slow truck.

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Re: Warp Speeds List

Post by 2046 » Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:47 am

And, in "Profit and Loss"[DSN2], we have a Cardassian shuttle (a runabout-sized first use of the model that would later be used for the Hideki, then finally as a shuttle again in "Tacking...") that is suggested to be capable of warp eight by Quark. Do you really think Cardie ships of that size range are likely to be faster than Federation ones?

Also, in "The Jem'Hadar"[DSN2], Jake Sisko (who'd just been assisting Chief O'Brien with runabout maintenance) orders the Rio Grande computer to set a course for DS9 at warp eight. The computer doesn't reject his command on the grounds of velocity correction, but simply notes that the autopilot is not functional. While by no means proving anything, it is certainly not a disproof of warp eight being an attainable velocity for runabouts.

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Re: Warp Speeds List

Post by 359 » Wed Jan 09, 2013 4:21 pm

I see what you mean. The large degree of inconsistency smashes the idea of using just a single instance as well.

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Re: Warp Speeds List

Post by Lucky » Sat Jan 12, 2013 7:10 am

359 wrote:DS9: "Dax":

Kira: Then they may know the speed of our runabouts. If they do, they probably have a faster ship to make their escape.
Sisko: Major, survey all ships in dock with a high warp capability. Damn!
Odo: What?
Sisko: That's why we've got a residual charge in the graviton generator. They've disabled the tractor beam.
Kira: We've got eight ships in dock capable of warp five or more. Three on docking pylons, five smaller ones in the ports.


This would seem to imply that the runabouts can not exceed or reach warp five. Kira was discussing the possibility that the Kidnappers knew how fast the runabouts could travel and coming up with a list of faster ships. This list included ships capable of warp 5+ which implies that runabouts can not exceed warp five.

An interesting implication of this is that many vessels seem incapable of reaching high warp as Starfleet ships regularly do. Whether or not this extends to Federation civilian craft is an interesting question as it places standard transit speeds in this range.
That looks to imply that Runabouts can't even reach warp 5.

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Re: Warp Speeds List

Post by Lucky » Sat Jan 12, 2013 7:12 am

2046 wrote:In my opinion, that quote only implies that Kira took Sisko's order about looking for "high warp capability" to mean "warp five or more". Nothing there specifically mentions runabout maximum warp velocity.

Look at it this way . . . there's no reason to assume that visiting starships have some sort of advertisement of their actual maximum warp speed. Vessel registrations may include some sort of similar information and that might've been what Kira was looking at, or alternately they may have tried to scan all the ships and take a guess. But either way, the actual truth of the matter was undoubtedly hazy.

Or, put it another way . . . if I wanted to find a ship among several that might be able to outrun the Enterprise-D, I'd search first for any that might be able to exceed warp nine . . . maybe seven or eight if I want to be sure. That doesn't mean the Enterprise-D is limited to warp nine (as we know), it just means I'm narrowing down the possibilities.

Besides, given that frickin' coffins can accelerate to and maintain warp nine (from the first "Emissary" on TNG), and given the rather voluminous warp mechanics of the runabout by comparison, and given that runabouts can outpace many ships, and given that the frickin' Suliban could clock warp five in their little pods 200 years prior, the whole notion of a warp five runabout just doesn't work. It would be like the US Navy putting out a PT boat that is propelled at oar-speed.

So, the maximum speed of the Danube Class is unknown, but probably respectably high. She's more a truck than a speedboat, I'd imagine, but I doubt she's a slow truck.
Technologies don't always scale up or down well, and probes are often one time use things.

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Re: Warp Speeds List

Post by Lucky » Sat Jan 12, 2013 7:22 am

2046 wrote:And, in "Profit and Loss"[DSN2], we have a Cardassian shuttle (a runabout-sized first use of the model that would later be used for the Hideki, then finally as a shuttle again in "Tacking...") that is suggested to be capable of warp eight by Quark. Do you really think Cardie ships of that size range are likely to be faster than Federation ones?
What a Carddi runabout can do has no relevance to what a Federation Runabout is designed to do. Just look at the real world, cars of similar sizes and masses can have very different capabilities.
2046 wrote:Also, in "The Jem'Hadar"[DSN2], Jake Sisko (who'd just been assisting Chief O'Brien with runabout maintenance) orders the Rio Grande computer to set a course for DS9 at warp eight. The computer doesn't reject his command on the grounds of velocity correction, but simply notes that the autopilot is not functional. While by no means proving anything, it is certainly not a disproof of warp eight being an attainable velocity for runabouts.
This doesn't say a Federation Runabout can reach warp 8, and we know Federation AI do some wonky things if I recall correctly.

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Re: Warp Speeds List

Post by 2046 » Sat Jan 12, 2013 8:02 pm

Lucky wrote:What a Carddi runabout can do has no relevance to what a Federation Runabout is designed to do. Just look at the real world, cars of similar sizes and masses can have very different capabilities.
In the absence of evidence to the contrary, rough parity among contemporary near-equal regimes is the best presumption. If you show me an American and Soviet fighter from the 1960s, it does not make sense to assume that one can do Mach 6 and the other Mach 2.

In the case of Cardassia, however, the situation is worse, since we know that their technology was somewhat behind that of the Federation before the war, though evidence suggests they were catching up.
This doesn't say a Federation Runabout can reach warp 8, and we know Federation AI do some wonky things if I recall correctly.
Here's the revised version of that paragraph from my reactivated blog:
Also, most interestingly, in "The Jem'Hadar"[DSN2], Jake Sisko orders the Rio Grande computer to set a course for DS9 at warp eight. The computer doesn't reject his command on the grounds of velocity correction, but simply notes that the autopilot is not functional. Of course, it might've reacted the same way if he'd ordered warp 13, but the interesting part to ponder is that Jake ordered it at all. You see, a plot point with this episode (and indeed, the early part of the series . . . see "Civil Defense") is that Jake had been assisting Chief O'Brien with assorted maintenance duties, and in this episode we are told that he'd been assisting with runabout maintenance.

Warp eight is a very odd figure to choose if you are desperately asking for a fast speed and unclear on the vessel's maximum velocity. Why not nine, or 9.9 even? Put simply, Jake wouldn't exactly be my go-to guy for tech questions, but he's not completely ignorant, and I think that particular order to the computer is indicative of what he knew of the vessel's velocity capabilities.

Personally, I find this to be fair evidence for warp eight as an attainable velocity for runabouts. It is not absolute proof, but like the Kira search I don't think it is disproof, either.
We do now have a likely upper limit, however. In "The Maquis, Pt. II" we have Dukat noting that the Xepolite freighter they were parked alongside was capable of warp 9.8, so that if it made a run for it at warp the runabout would never catch up. So, the runabout is probably capable of warp eight but almost certainly not capable of 9.8.

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