Warp Speeds List

[359]

This all makes an assumption that the computer system knows what the Enterprise's speed would be at different warp factors, which may or may not be all that large of an assumption.

And were there more variables to calculate warp travel, would they not affect warp seven, eight, and nine proportionally to warp one? So it would still come back to a ratio between the effective 'speeds' for calculating different warp factors.

[Who is like God arbour]

No: My argument is that the computer system does not know what the Enterprise's velocity is at different warp factors. That's exactly the problem. Because if it knew it, it would be no problem to calculate the needed time knowing the distance to Outpost Twenty Three.

My impression (nothing more than a speculation) is that a warp factor can not be converted into a velocity but into a power output of the engines.

• • • • This idea is supported e.g. by the TNG episode »The Loss«. The crew of the Enterprise pumped the energy needed for a jump to warp six into the ship's engines but couldn't gain any additional velocity because two-dimensional beings on their way to a cosmic string somehow prevented any acceleration of the ship. The warp six power output was there - but the velocity was not.

Then the velocity can be influenced by different characteristics of the flown through space e.g. gravitation.

That makes it rather complex to calculate the time needed for a certain distance.

And it wouldn't affect the time at higher warp factors proportionally.

If e.g. gravitation can slow down a ship it also means that the ship is longer in its grasp.

Flying through space means that gravitation-sources (galaxies, stars, planets, asteroids, nebulas, dark matter etc.) are on all sides - some stronger, some weaker.

Maybe the power of the gravitation field intensity is somehow surpressing the warp field. The power of the gravitation will get stronger the nearer the ship comes its source and the slower the ship will fly. The further the ship is away from the source the weaker the gravitation will become and the faster the ship will fly.

Or maybe it is a vectorial effect where those gravitation-sources behind are slowing down a ship and those in front are increasing its velocity.

• • • • This idea is supported by the movie »Generations«. The destruction of the Amargosa star has altered the gravitational forces throughout the sector and forced ships passing through the region to make minor course corrections. Assuming those ships were flying with warp, it shows that gravitation affects ships in warp too. And if it can alter the course of a ship it can change the velocity too.

Or maybe it is the opposite and gravitation (as a space influencing force) is necessary for the warp drive to work - maybe to push against. No or only a weak gravitation field results in slower velocities with the same power output of the engines with which higher velocities are possible in space with a strong gravitation field.

Or maybe it is a little bit of both - similar to water. Without water a nautic ship couldn't swim and its propeller couldn't create propulsion while at the same time, water is slowing down the ship. Maybe with gravitation it is the same: Necessary to create propulsion while it creates at the same time a drag or suppresses the warp field. Considering the third of Newton's laws of motion, such an interaction seems more than only plausible.

This speculation allows for rather complex calculations and premises for a calculation a rudimentary knowledge of the space that will be flown through.

I can even imagine that, knowing the flown through space and its characteristics, it is possible to make adjustements to the warp field geometry to compensate for some influences.

This speculation allows for higher velocities in well known space and slower velocities in unknown space where it is necessary to continuously scan the flown through space to be able to make the necessary adjustments on the warp field geometry or allow the gravity to take its effect uncompensated.

[2046]

Why assume the alien system knew a distance at all?

See, this is what I am talking about. We do not know the workings of this system. You are imagining computer precision but it is just as likely that it had all the narrative capacity of a fanfic author. It may very well have simply guessed at a Data-like phrasing. There was no Enterprise and no such ship was at any real location in space. The stars out the window were probably generic. I doubt any real location was in the computer system at all.

After all, Riker suspected the fake Romulans were trying to learn the location of Outpost 23. If they were at precise coordinates and had a precise travel time, then you have a thin-walled sphere of locations... in other words, you probably know already. (Riker probably suspected Data's answer was a bogus Data-esque answer.)

Can you prove that the system had specific coordinates for the ship's location?

[2046]

Also, this concept of yours is contradicted by non-android, non-cyborg characters doing quick mental calculations of warp travel distances and times.


"The Price"[TNG3] . . . Data notes that the Barzan wormhole delivered a Barzan probe "beyond the Denkiri Arm in the Gamma Quadrant". Picard whistles and notes that it would take a vessel "nearly a century at warp nine to cover that distance." Later, a Starfleet shuttlepod is sent through (with a Ferengi shuttlepod also present), where Geordi and Data discover that instead of the Gamma Quadrant location, "we are nearly 200 light-years away in Sector 3556 of the Delta Quadrant." Geordi later notes to the Ferengi shuttlepod that they are some 70,000 light-years from Barzan. When the Ferengi don't come back when Geordi warns them to, Picard notes to the Ferengi daimon that if he heads for the Delta Quadrant, he'll find his shuttlepod in "80 years or so". Assuming Picard's "nearly a century" and "80 years or so" were the same thing, and that he was referring to the 70,000 light-year distance in both cases, then warp nine velocity would be 875 light-years per year, 2.39 ly/day, .0998 ly/hr, or 875c.

"One"[VOY4] . . . Voyager must traverse a nebula at least 110 light-years across. Janeway notes that it will take well over a month to get through it. Assuming 40 days, then that's 2.75 ly/day, 0.1145 ly/hr, or a hair under 1004c.

"Counterpoint"[VOY5] . . . Voyager is due to rendezvous with a transport, but the transport changes the meeting coordinates. The new location is said to be 2.36 light-years from Voyager's position. Chakotay says it will take two more days to get there. At this point Voyager is being monitored by the Devore, whose space they are traversing. Their route was carefully planned by the Devore, though it is not known if the ship's speed was also subject to Devore regulation. In any case, that's 1.18ly/day, just under 0.05ly/hr, or 430c.

"Dark Frontier, Pt. II"[VOY5] . . . The Hansens, having been discovered by the Borg and with the Borg in pursuit, detect a transwarp conduit 2.3 light-years away, with the emerging Cube headed right for them. Time to intercept is reported as an hour, perhaps less. That's a quite clear 2.3 ly/hr, or 20,148c on the part of the Cube.

"Gravity"[VOY5] . . . The Doctor is reactivated after two months. Paris notes wryly that given that period of time, Voyager is probably 300 light-years closer to home. That works out to 5ly/day (0.2ly/hr) , or 1,825c.

"Friendship One"[VOY7] . . . Voyager is considering evacuating a population from a planet. The closest suitable world is 132 light-years away, and it is noted by Torres that this will be a two-month round trip at maximum warp. Assuming that she was not including time for loading and offloading of passengers and supplies, then we can ballpark this as 132 light-years per sixty days. That's 2.2 light-years per day, less than 0.1ly/hr, or 803c.


Other examples abound which were not on my list because they had no distance attached, such as Worf in "Waltz" knowing it would take 12 hours to reach the Honshu site coordinates, which was critical to the story.


Further, in the DS9 episode "A Time To Stand", everyone looks to the genetically engineered doctor to calculate travel time to the nearest starbase at impulse. Impulse! Are we now to argue that impulse travel is super-complicated??

[359]

As for gravity affecting warp, in TNG: "Relics" the massive gravity of the Dyson's Sphere did not seem to be noticed until the Enterprise dropped out of warp to investigate a distress signal, and the Jenolen wasn't affected either until they dropped out of warp.

[2046]

Contrasting with the course corrections noted in Generations, that renders things somewhat inconclusive, to say the least. "Relics" suggests that a path for a transport to a colony popular as a retirement destination (a path which one would think wouldn't exactly be untravelled) might be hiding a huge-mongous gravitational anomaly that nobody has ever really investigated or perhaps even noticed. And yet Generations would have us believe that the sudden mass difference of a supernova is sufficient to require course corrections throughout a sector.

One would think that Federation cartographers, even if unaware of the gravitational anomaly itself, would've noticed the effect on other nearby objects, ships passing that way, and so on. Even today we have a rough sense of the movement of stars in our neighborhood relative to the galaxy at large, and I'd wager that the Dyson Sphere had been around long enough to have a significant effect on its neighborhood, even if the neighborhood was of a low stellar population (e.g. outside an arm or otherwise in a boring stretch of the galaxy).

However, it is possible that for some reason or chain of reasons, this had not been noticed. It may be that the Jenola/en was headed to Norpin via an unusual, seldom traveled route, which would explain why the Enterprise-D was the first to detect its signal some 75 years later, and that this area of space was generally so boring as to be of little direct interest among the cartographic community . . . the gravitational effects were far enough removed from anything useful so as to be a minor blip on the radar.

In this way, it is not necessary to have the two concepts run contrary to each other. Even the Enterprise was headed directly toward the anomalous gravity source and so wouldn't have really needed a course correction anyway, and as I recall the course correction of the ship noted near Amargosa involved a ship that was pretty close and the correction itself was minor.

The moral of the story, though, would seem to be that while gravitational fields can have some effect on warp drive, the effect is relatively small. Even Voyager's varying courses, such as Q's offered course that shaved years off, may have only capitalized on this effect in aggregated and extreme form, perhaps with other variables (such as frequent refueling allowing higher top end) also in that Q one's mix.

Still, though, I don't have the sense that gravity is sufficient background for the warp highways suggestion of highly variable velocities.

[Who is like God arbour]

Episode 1:

• • • • Voyager was over seventy thousand light years away from where they were - even at maximum speeds, it would take round about seventy five years to reach the Federation.

Episode 69:

• • • • Kes propelled the ship over 9500 light years closer to Earth, eliminating 10 years off the crew's journey.

Episode 93:

• • • • Lieutenant Torres was able to modify Voyager to be able to make use of the Quantum slipstream technology from a ship called Dauntless that was allegedly sent by Starfleet Command to bring the Voyager crew home. With the temporary use of that technology, Voyager was able to continue 300 light years closer to the Alpha Quadrant.

Episode 94:

• • • • A spatial vortex leading to the other side of the Void cut two years and 2500 light years off of Voyager's journey.

Episode 100:

• • • • Voyagers crew revisited the Quantum slipstream technology and were able to travel another 10,000 light years before the slipstream collapsed.

Episode 110:

• • • • Voyagers crew stole a transwarp coil from a Borg sphere that cut 15 years off Voyager's trip home.

Episode 127:

• • • • Voyager used a Graviton catapult constructed by an alien known as Tash to cut three years off the journey home.

Episode 162:

• • • • Q, grateful for Captain Janeway's assistance in straightening out his son's behavior, provided Janeway with a route that would take a few years off of Voyager's journey.

When Q provided Janeway with that route, Voyager had already travelled round about 40.500 light years and still would have needed 30 years to get home without any other shortenings.

Let's assume that with a few years are only three years meant. That's a margin of round about ten percent.

With other words: You are admiting that gravitation could have effects on the needed travel time in a magnitude of ten percent.

For a journey that needs at Warp One three days and four hours, that's a difference of 7 hours.

Insofar, for Data to be as precise as he is, he would have to considerate the gravitation too.

And that's the difference to your examples above. Data is precise. The persons in your examples are not. Of course it is possible to estimate time and distance. But not with the precision in which Data calculates it.

• • • • By the way - I didn't say that gravitation is the one and only factor that effects the propulsion of the warp engines.

[Lucky]

[

As for gravity affecting warp, in TNG: "Relics" the massive gravity of the Dyson's Sphere did not seem to be noticed until the Enterprise dropped out of warp to investigate a distress signal, and the Jenolen wasn't affected either until they dropped out of warp.

The surface gravity of the thing in TNG: Relics was low enough that it seems to have had liquid water on its surface, and may have been hollow.
http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ics332.jpg
http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ics335.jpg

There may have been an Earth like atmosphere even
http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ics333.jpg

I don't see how you or 2046 can argue with this statement.

JANEWAY: We don't know exactly how many vessels are out there. but their space appears to be vast. It includes thousands of solar systems, all Borg. We are no doubt entering the heart of their territory. There's no going around it but there may be a way through it. 


CHAKOTAY: Before the probe was disabled, it picked up a narrow corridor of space devoid of Borg activity. We've nicknamed it the Northwest Passage. 


TORRES: Unfortunately, the passage is filled with intense gravimetric distortions. probably caused by a string of quantum singularities. 


PARIS: Better to ride the rapids than face the hive.

There is also the example of the wave created by the Klingon moon exploding. While this is the result of an extreme event we can reasonably assume similar but lesser waves are more common.

[2046]

With other words: You are admiting that gravitation could have effects on the needed travel time in a magnitude of ten percent.

Nope. I explicitly pointed to other variables, such as frequent refueling stops, as also being plausible. Hell, for all we know, he pointed them in the direction of some other catapult thingies, benewhatever crystals for the slipstream, and dead Borg ships with transwarp coils free for the taking.

There was no indication in that conversation that there was anything at all to do with gravity . . . I was just throwing you a bone. Don't try to take a mile when I give you an inch.

[2046]

Good job, Lucky! The reference to additional canon material in support of your gravity thought is the way to do it.

The Northwest Passage does seem to suggest that intense large-scale gravitational whatzits are non-preferred for warp travel purposes. Similarly, I am reminded of "Behind the Lines", in which the Defiant's endangered by traversing the innards of the Argolis Cluster, said to be an area of extreme gravimetric shear that the Dominion would not be expecting an attacking force to traverse, to attack a Dominion sensor array. By necessity this should be a warp flight.

We'll have to see how this all synthesizes out. I don't think there's evidence for significant velocity changes on account of normal gravity levels, but I'll review further.

[Lucky]

Good job, Lucky! The reference to additional canon material in support of your gravity thought is the way to do it.

The Northwest Passage does seem to suggest that intense large-scale gravitational whatzits are non-preferred for warp travel purposes. Similarly, I am reminded of "Behind the Lines", in which the Defiant's endangered by traversing the innards of the Argolis Cluster, said to be an area of extreme gravimetric shear that the Dominion would not be expecting an attacking force to traverse, to attack a Dominion sensor array. By necessity this should be a warp flight.

We'll have to see how this all synthesizes out. I don't think there's evidence for significant velocity changes on account of normal gravity levels, but I'll review further.

Gravity has a notable effect on Subspace.

WORF: Captain, I am picking up subspace distortion.


PICARD: Mister Data?


DATA: This disturbance is the result of a highly charged graviton field emanating from our warp nacelles. It is creating a severe bias in the subspace continuum.


PICARD: Mister Barclay, are you responsible for this graviton field disturbance?


BARCLAY [OC]: Yes, sir, I'm altering subspace in a way that's never been conceived of before. I'm fairly certain it will allow us to travel half-way across the galaxy in a matter of only

SULU: According to this we've completed our exploration of the entire sector.


(the ship begins to shudder and Sulu's teacup rattles off his table and breaks on the floor)


VALTANE: I have an energy wave from two hundred and forty degrees mark six port.


SULU: Visual! My ...God. ...Shields!


(an energy wave hits the ship throwing the crew about)


LOJUR (OC): Captain, she's not answering her helm.


SULU: Starboard thrusters. Turn her into the wave!


LOJUR: Aye.


SULU: Quarter impulse power! ...Damage report.


EXCELSIOR ENGINEER: Checking all systems, Captain.


SULU: Don't tell me that was any meteor shower.


VALTANE: Negative, sir. The subspace shockwave originated at bearing three two three, mark seven five. Location. It's Praxis, sir. It's a Klingon moon.


SULU: Praxis is their key energy production facility. ...Send to Klingon High Command. 'This is Excelsior, a Federation starship. We have monitored a large explosion in your sector. Do you require assistance?'


RAND: Aye sir.


SULU: Mister Valtane, any more data?


VALTANE: Yes sir. I have confirmed the location of Praxis, sir, but...


SULU: What is it?


VALTANE: I cannot confirm the existence of Praxis.


SULU: On screen! ...Magnify!


COMPUTER VOICE: Computer enhancement.


SULU: Praxis?


VALTANE: What's left of it, sir.


RAND: Captain, I'm getting a message from Praxis.


SULU: Let's have it.


KERLA (on viewscreen): This is Brigadier Kerla, speaking for the High Command. There has been an incident on Praxis. However everything is under control. We have no need for assistance. Obey treaty stipulations and remain outside the Neutral Zone. This transmission ends now.


SULU: An incident?


RAND: Do we report this, sir?


SULU: Are you kidding?

[2046]

The Nth example is good, the Praxis one not so much as I don't see any reference to gravity being the cause or related to the effect. Why are you suggesting it relates?

[359]

The surface gravity of the thing in TNG: Relics was low enough that it seems to have had liquid water on its surface, and may have been hollow.
http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ics332.jpg
http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ics335.jpg

There may have been an Earth like atmosphere even

In the episode they noticed a significant gravity field. The change to lower gravity to allow life on the surface could be an effect of artificial gravity generators like those used on starships.

Worf: "We have entered a massive gravitational field, Captain."
Data: "There are no stars or other stellar bodies listed on our navigational charts. However, sensors indicate the presence of an extremely strong gravitational source in this vicinity."

I don't see how you or 2046 can argue with this statement.

JANEWAY: We don't know exactly how many vessels are out there. but their space appears to be vast. It includes thousands of solar systems, all Borg. We are no doubt entering the heart of their territory. There's no going around it but there may be a way through it. 


CHAKOTAY: Before the probe was disabled, it picked up a narrow corridor of space devoid of Borg activity. We've nicknamed it the Northwest Passage. 


TORRES: Unfortunately, the passage is filled with intense gravimetric distortions. probably caused by a string of quantum singularities. 


PARIS: Better to ride the rapids than face the hive.

For this and DS9: "Behind the Lines". There is nothing to indicate that their factor to factor speed would be significantly changed by these high gravity regions. It appears that things like strong "gravimetric shear" and "gravimetric distortions" are simply not conducive to a lifespan beyond that of entering the hazardous areas.

Sisko: "That I take the Defiant through the Argolis."
Ross: "You can't take a ship through there. You'd be cut to pieces by the gravimetric shear."

[Lucky]

In the episode they noticed a significant gravity field. The change to lower gravity to allow life on the surface could be an affect of artificial gravity generators like those used on starships.

Worf: "We have entered a massive gravitational field, Captain."
Data: "There are no stars or other stellar bodies listed on our navigational charts. However, sensors indicate the presence of an extremely strong gravitational source in this vicinity."

Large=/= power, and there was a star inside it.

For what we saw to be true, the sphere can't have more then a few g on its surface relatively speaking.

For this and DS9: "Behind the Lines". There is nothing to indicate that their factor to factor speed would be significantly changed by these high gravity regions. It appears that things like strong "gravimetric shear" and "gravimetric distortions" are simply not conducive to a lifespan beyond that of entering the hazardous areas.

Sisko: "That I take the Defiant through the Argolis."
Ross: "You can't take a ship through there. You'd be cut to pieces by the gravimetric shear."

"Once More Unto The Breach"
WORF: We could disrupt their warp fields with an inverse graviton burst. It would force them to drop to impulse until the gravitons dissipated.

[Lucky]

The Nth example is good, the Praxis one not so much as I don't see any reference to gravity being the cause or related to the effect. Why are you suggesting it relates?

Here is my reasoning.

JANEWAY: We don't know exactly how many vessels are out there. but their space appears to be vast. It includes thousands of solar systems, all Borg. We are no doubt entering the heart of their territory. There's no going around it but there may be a way through it. 


CHAKOTAY: Before the probe was disabled, it picked up a narrow corridor of space devoid of Borg activity. We've nicknamed it the Northwest Passage. 


TORRES: Unfortunately, the passage is filled with intense gravimetric distortions. probably caused by a string of quantum singularities. 


PARIS: Better to ride the rapids than face the hive.

Problems caused by gravity being described as if the ship travels through water.

WORF: Captain, I am picking up subspace distortion.


PICARD: Mister Data?


DATA: This disturbance is the result of a highly charged graviton field emanating from our warp nacelles. It is creating a severe bias in the subspace continuum.


PICARD: Mister Barclay, are you responsible for this graviton field disturbance?


BARCLAY [OC]: Yes, sir, I'm altering subspace in a way that's never been conceived of before. I'm fairly certain it will allow us to travel half-way across the galaxy in a matter of only

Gravity mucks around with subspace.

SULU: According to this we've completed our exploration of the entire sector.


(the ship begins to shudder and Sulu's teacup rattles off his table and breaks on the floor)


VALTANE: I have an energy wave from two hundred and forty degrees mark six port.


SULU: Visual! My ...God. ...Shields!


(an energy wave hits the ship throwing the crew about)


LOJUR (OC): Captain, she's not answering her helm.


SULU: Starboard thrusters. Turn her into the wave!


LOJUR: Aye.


SULU: Quarter impulse power! ...Damage report.


EXCELSIOR ENGINEER: Checking all systems, Captain.


SULU: Don't tell me that was any meteor shower.


VALTANE: Negative, sir. The subspace shockwave originated at bearing three two three, mark seven five. Location. It's Praxis, sir. It's a Klingon moon.


SULU: Praxis is their key energy production facility. ...Send to Klingon High Command. 'This is Excelsior, a Federation starship. We have monitored a large explosion in your sector. Do you require assistance?'


RAND: Aye sir.


SULU: Mister Valtane, any more data?


VALTANE: Yes sir. I have confirmed the location of Praxis, sir, but...


SULU: What is it?


VALTANE: I cannot confirm the existence of Praxis.


SULU: On screen! ...Magnify!


COMPUTER VOICE: Computer enhancement.


SULU: Praxis?


VALTANE: What's left of it, sir.


RAND: Captain, I'm getting a message from Praxis.


SULU: Let's have it.


KERLA (on viewscreen): This is Brigadier Kerla, speaking for the High Command. There has been an incident on Praxis. However everything is under control. We have no need for assistance. Obey treaty stipulations and remain outside the Neutral Zone. This transmission ends now.


SULU: An incident?


RAND: Do we report this, sir?


SULU: Are you kidding?

Subspace wave tossing a Starfleet vessel as if it was on water.

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/File:En ... _field.jpg
Ships traveling at warp seem to create wakes as if traveling on water.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_wave
Real world physics tells us gravity should likely cause waves in space/time.

We know
1) Warp travel is similar to travel on water.

2) Gravitational fields have a marked effect on subspace.

3) Warp travel involves manipulating space and subspace with gravity.

4) Real world physics tells us gravity waves should be expected.

5) Subspace waves exist in Star Trek.

We can deduce
1) Things that cause Gravitational Waves will cause subspace waves in Star trek.

2) Space is not flat in Star Trek, but topographically complex.