Slave-I's Seismic Mines (high bandwidth)

[Mr. Oragahn]

I'm starting this thread to analyze and gather the most data possible about this new form of weapon.

They were used during the pursuit between Jango and Obi-Wan, in Geonosis' asteroid field.

Jango released them from the rear of the Slave-I, as unguided mines, and detonated from a distance which would, he hoped, destroy Obi-Wan's craft by shattering many asteroids on the way, and thus generate a rain of hazardous and dangerous debris.

• Seismic Mine Dimensions
  
  I'll use the following Slave-I dimensions:
  
  Length: 21.5 meters (height in flight)
  Width: 21.3 meters (wingspan)
  Height/depth: 7.8 meters (depth in flight)
  
  Coupled to measurements made on the seemingly accurate enough Slave-I schematic from the EGVV, I obtain the following dimensions:
  
  
  
  Lenght: 2.39 m.
  Width: 0.96 m.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
• The build up phase
  
  
  
  There are several phenomenoms we can observe.
  
  1. The charge explodes. Within 280 ms, a m wide sphere has already been generated, and quickly expands. It is semi-opaque, and could a form of "smog" of some sort.
     This is also accompagnated by the creation of two slowly stretching opposite pairs of concentric cones. Let's call them polar cones.
     
     It takes roughly 1.44 seconds for the sphere to reach its maximum diameter, roughly 23.72 meters.
  2. When the two polar cones start to tighten, and two opposite pules of light are seen converging on the sphere, sliding down along the cones. The sphere starts to flatten at the same time.
     During the sphere's compresion, clouds of particles are pulled towards the center of the sphere, followed by smaller asteroids, as we can see in the following animations:
     
     Gravity#1.
     Gravity#2.
  3. While the sphere flattens, if becomes a little bit wider and whiter. More luminous.
  4. When the two opposite pulses of light make contact at the center of the now disc-looking sphere, a new explosion happens, and the destructive and extra thin disc expands.
  5. Only the corona of the disc is visible, while there's some residual matter left where the reaction occured. The polar cones slowly vanish out of view.
     The edge is moving at 146.75 m/s.
  • We can also observe how this looks incredibly familiar to the theoretical representations of black holes, including accretion disks and jets:
    
    
    
    
    
    Illustrations not mine.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  • Power of the seismic mines
    
    I produced three small animations featuring the major asteroid destructions. I have enhanced the luminosity, and slighty upped the contrast for sharper details. Besides, they're in 32 colours.
    
    Clip #1.
    Clip #2.
    Clip #3 (continuation of clip#2).
    
    We can see that the enormous asteroids actually break into extremely big pieces, while roughly fighter sized debris occur in a band above and below the slit.
    The rock is amber hot where it has been cut by the blue wave.
    
    1. The first mine explodes 11 seconds after it's released, and the blue wave lasts 5.4 seconds on screen.
    The interesting part here is that the camera is inside the mine storage room, so we see what's behind the Slave-I, and there are no debris nor any blue wave to be seen.
    
    Same when the mine is released, and the camera pans towards Obi-Wan's starfighter, who's following Jango: no debris, no blue wave.
    Mind you, this could be the result of the montage, especially since the second wave lasts longer. After all, the second whole sequence seems more continuous.
    
    2. Approximatively 5.4 seconds after the first mine exploded, Jango releases another one. The second one explodes 4.5 seconds after being released. Once again, there is evidence that little bits were cut, so it's likely that the mine exploded more lately after release.
    
    Most interesting is the major impact that occurs 6.5 seconds after the second mine exploded, shown in the third clip.
    
    As we can see, the idling asteroid is actually destroyed by a possibly former sliced half smashing into it.
    
    Well, it looks like a big debris from the former shock.
    However, in the third clip, the massive rock, coming from behind, moves considerably faster than pieces of the same size, propelled after the blue wave hit the very large asteroids they were part of.
    
    This shows that the extra velocity is not the fruit of the weapon, as no debris of that size was ejected that fast.
    
    If this piece, hitting the large asteroid in the third clip, is not another asteroid that just luckily looks like it was broken apart, then it means that this large bit has been accelerated by another impact from another asteroid, which itself, was not propelled by the blue wave.
    
    It could also be that this large impactor, was part of a larged asteroid which already moved at signficant speed before being hit by the disc.
    
    Anyway, basically, if we want to gauge the momentum of debris released after asteroids got shattered, we have to look at the first and second clips, but not at the third one.

[Praeothmin]

Nice analysis, but I have one slight problem:
the scaling of the energy sphere.
How do you get 33 meters accross, when the mine is only 2.39 meters long.
The sphere's diameter doesn't look more then 10 times the lenght of the mine.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Nice analysis, but I have one slight problem:
the scaling of the energy sphere.
How do you get 33 meters accross, when the mine is only 2.39 meters long.
The sphere's diameter doesn't look more then 10 times the lenght of the mine.

That's probably a trick of the eye, since the mine is lining on the side at a 45° angle, while the sphere's diameter is represented by an horizontal line.
33.87 meters corresponds to the sphere at its largest dimensions.
14.85 pixels = 2.39 meters (mine's lenght).

The exact factor, then, is 0.16094276094276094276094276094276 m / px.

Thusly, 210.5 px (the sphere's diameter measured from the cap) gives roughly 33.87 meters.

[Praeothmin]

Ah, these darn pixels... :)

Thanks for clearing that up...

[Mr. Oragahn]

Ah, these darn pixels... :)

Thanks for clearing that up...

You were right about the damn pixels. Trick of the eye my arse yes. :D
The sphere ends being about 20 meters wide.
I forgot that I quickly resized the image, by increasing its size. Of course, this would give different pixel counts. :/
Doing this became so automatic that I simply forgot even doing it. Generally, I do it when I start working on a pic, but this time, I realized it was too small after doing a lot of work on it.
It was being late, and was happy about how things looked out, so huh, I uploaded the stuff.

Baaaad thing. :)

So now, the ratio m/px for the mine is definitely correct. I've checked it thrice, from the latest iteration of the native document.

So I've updated the estimations for the last time.

Anyway, let's try to get more numbers now.




Let me, first, present other calculations made at SB.com.

First estimation.

:lol:

Nice to see you displaying your colossal ignorance of how bombs work:

"Remember that a bomb's energy delivery is decreased exponentially with distance. Slave-1 is not in frame, so a direct scaling is impossible, but if we assume that the wave is traveling at least 300 meters per second (smashes through the 100 meter asteroid in fractions of a second), the asteroid would be at least 2.4 kilometers from the bomb. If we assume only 2 kilometers distance, and at least a kiloton of energy for a 100 meter asteroid, we're looking at gigatons of energy at the point of detonation. This bomb releases energy in 2 dimensions rather than 3, so it scales by the inverse square law I believe, rather than cubes. The AOTC:ICS indicates that the bomb releases about 11.9 gigatons of energy. 11,900,000 kilotons divided by 4,000,000 (2,000 meters squared) is about 2.975 kilotons. So, at 2km distance, just about the right amount of energy is delivered to fragment that asteroid. Unless my calculations are off, neither are the AOTC:ICS figures. It's not stacking the deck, it's not choosing sides. It just works out."

That seems wrong. The energy spreads out in a ring, not a continuous disc. Using the numbers from that calculation (1 kiloton of energy arriving at the 100m diameter asteroid 2000m away, you get 2*Pi*2000=12566m for that circle's perimeter. (Edited: I confused the words perimeter and radius)

100m / 12566m = 0.00796 This means 0,796% of the energy are in the part of the circle hitting the asteroid.

To get 100% of the detonation's energy, you need to multiply by 125.629. (Because 0.796*125.629=100)
1kiloton * 125.629 = 125.629 kilotons = 0.1257 megatons = 0.0001257 gigatons.

This sounds far, far more reasonable.

Second estimation.

[quoting Leo1's post]

Laughing at me then posting flawed calculations only makes yourself look like more of an idiot.

His calculations completely neglect to take into account the size of the target and assume that this 100-meter asteroid is a point object as oppossed to a not-insignificant sized rock. As Rask said the energy expands in a disk, at 2.4 kilometers distance the ring will have a radius of 15,072m; a 100m asteroid will be absorbing roughly 0.66% of the total energy of the seismic mine.

Going by the asteroid destruction calculator, to structurally destroy a 100 m sillicaceous asteroid requires a mere 180 tons of TNT. That puts a lower limit of about 27 kilotons for the seismic mine in this event. If you prefer to use Wong's generic 'fragmentation energy' of 1 kiloton for a 100m rock (which provides a middle-region calculation) this goes up to 151 kilotons.

If you expand it and assume that it could do the same out to 10 kilometers you're looking at the asteroid being ~0.16% of the ring's diameter. ~114 kilotons for silicaceous or 628 kt 'generic'.

See how big the difference is when you don't plug in all your factors or even bother doing more than cursory math?

I'm quite willing to grant that the seismic mine is quite probably many times more powerful than this, but even that's orders of magnitudes below the ICS figures. Frankly the seismic mines are weird pieces of work and I don't even pretend to understand how they'd work in reality. The best that can be done is very crude approximations.

I've tried to estimate an acceptable maximum range for the devices.
We have evidence that the range of the device is limited. Based on the estimated speed, roughly 213.25 m/s, it would require 46.8 seconds for the ring to reach a radius of 10 km.

So let's look at the waves.
We last saw the wave of the first device 5.4 seconds after the first disc expansion started.

Please notice that I only started to clock the wave from the moment the disc expanded, not when the device exploded.

The second blue wave is last seen 7.6 seconds after the second disc's expansion started.

However, looking at how effective the second blue wave still was, even then, it's possible that the second bomb's range was greater.
By how much then?

After the second device explodes, less than 19 seconds later, the camera's back into the cockpit of Obi-Wan's fighter, and we again see what's behind him. There's no trace of a blue wave of any kind, nor any asteroid dust and debris flying left and right. The danger is clearly gone by that time. That is, by the way, after the camera spending a good deal of time in Jango's cockpit, roughly 10.8 seconds.

So the 19 seconds is the reasonable high end, and based on the disc expansion speed, that makes an absolute range of 2,788.25 meters.




Energy estimation

The disc is extremely thin. On the first animation I provide, we can see the disc cutting through an asteroid which is closer to the camera, is only 4 pixels thick, at best.
This translates into a thickness of 0.45 meters.

We're going to simplify this to 1 meter, so we'll talk about a perimeter. The only difference between the perimeter and lateral surface formulas is the multiplication by height for the later.

The disc's perimeter, with a radius of 2,788.25 meters, is 25,457.9 meters.

The width of a 100 meters wide asteroid therefore represents 0.57 % of the perimeter.

Wong's calculator estimates that for a 100 meters wide asteroid, you need 1 kiloton of fragmentation energy for igneous rock.

"Fragmentation energy is the energy required to shatter the asteroid so that no individual fragment exceeds 10 m in diameter."

This is a very high end, since no asteroid, that could be measured as being so large, ended being entirely turned into 10 meters wide fragments, even when the wave's edge was passing through the cores of those large ones.

Again, 1 kiloton is a generous figure.

Now, what would the total energy of the perimeter be?

1 KT corresponds to 0.57 % of the total energy, we thusly get 175.44 kilotons, at the maximum range of 2,788.25 meters.

Now, let's consider the fact that the ring itself is a funny affair. An asteroid, as one of those small ones blasted near to the origin of the explosion, won't be imparted with more energy than an asteroid, of the same size, hit hundreds of meters away. No matter the range, the destruction seems similar.

So we could consider that the edge's output is a question of power. Here, it would about 175.44 kilotons per second, or 734.04 e12 watts.

Therefore, the total energy released after 19 seconds (remember, that's the high end range), would be about 3,333.36 kilotons.

EDIT: after reading this months later, I realized that certain formulations were just plain awkward, so I reformulated the post into a better shape. The values have not changed though, nor the observations made based on them.

[Kane Starkiller]

Seeing as how there are several cuts between Obi-Wan's cockipt, external view and Jango's cockpit you have no way of determining the actual elapsed time and therefore no way of determining an upper limit.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Seeing as how there are several cuts between Obi-Wan's cockipt, external view and Jango's cockpit you have no way of determining the actual elapsed time and therefore no way of determining an upper limit.

Oh but we can clearly see that the ICS figure is not a correct high end.

We've seen how much energy the wave puts into what it touches.

Let's look at the ICS's claim. 11.9 GT.

11.9 gigatons of energy, that's 11,900 megatons, or 11,900,000 kilotons.

Considering that 4.184 e12 watts for the arc which hit the (assumed) 100 m wide asteroid was an already impossible high end, especially considering the mere pulverization of small asteroids hit by the wave, so we won't use any higher power figure here.

So with a top power of 175.44 KT/s, the wave would have lasted 67,829.4 seconds. Or 1130.5 minutes. Or 18 hours.
Finally, the wave would have reached a radius of 9,953,972.87 meters. 78% of Earth's diameter.

Somehow, I'm not convinced that Jango, Boba and Obi-Wan spent almost 18 hours within Geonosis' asteroid field.
Are you?

[Nonamer]

Reminds me of the Seismic charge calcs I did on the SB.com forum. Not sure if want to dig them up again (they're a in a messy thread), but the calcs are pretty similar: about a few hundred KT, maybe low MT range at most, per seismic charge.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Reminds me of the Seismic charge calcs I did on the SB.com forum. Not sure if want to dig them up again (they're a in a messy thread), but the calcs are pretty similar: about a few hundred KT, maybe low MT range at most, per seismic charge.

I'd like to see them though. Did you post as Nonamer, at SB.com?

I'm curious to what they look like.
The 1 kiloton into a 100 m wide asteroid is an absurd claim. I used it as the high end, because it can only be that.

When the small asteroids, next to the origin of the explosion, get sliced by the wave, there's no molten rock to be seen. The roughly 10 meters wide one seen in the animation above, in the OP, shows no sign of vapourization or fusion. It is simply shattered. The power is therefore low.

It is only when the asteroid is too big to be entirely shattered and expanded fast enough, that the wave does superficially heats up the thin surface of the rock where it was cut.
That's why the 1 kiloton figure is just too high. Going down by one order of magnitude is, at the very least, the way to go.

[Mike DiCenso]

Part of the problem with the seismic charges used by Slave-I in AoTC is in understanding exactly what mechanism these weapons work by in the first place. As already noted, they are clearly not in any way a conventional high-energy explosion of any kind. That they even make a weird musical basso guitar note sound as they dedonate versus normal explosions' "ka-booms" already places them in a different catagory altogether.

Again, as noted, visually the seismic charges more resemble conceptual concepts for black holes than an explosion. Does this require that a seismic charge mine need enourmous amounts of power? Possibly. But as the pro-Wars types like to say about phasers, there is no way to be sure about a seismic charge's actual power requirements. We can only at this point using Oragahn and Nonamer's calcs to get a rough "equivalent" power effects.

Another thing:

If the seismic charges work on setting off a vibrational frequency in an impacted target that causes it to literally shake apart into pieces, would this not also generate enough heating to bring the material to the glowing point, if the molecules are moved so quickly? The lack therefore as pointed out tends to suggest another kind of effect than just simple DET.
-Mike

[Mr. Oragahn]

Part of the problem with the seismic charges used by Slave-I in AoTC is in understanding exactly what mechanism these weapons work by in the first place. As already noted, they are clearly not in any way a conventional high-energy explosion of any kind. That they even make a weird musical basso guitar note sound as they dedonate versus normal explosions' "ka-booms" already places them in a different catagory altogether.

Well, the same could be said about beam weapons. The sounds are all different. I think this is not much relevant.

Again, as noted, visually the seismic charges more resemble conceptual concepts for black holes than an explosion. Does this require that a seismic charge mine need enourmous amounts of power? Possibly. But as the pro-Wars types like to say about phasers, there is no way to be sure about a seismic charge's actual power requirements. We can only at this point using Oragahn and Nonamer's calcs to get a rough "equivalent" power effects.

It may generate lots of energy, but there are problems which my post and others' calcs have outlined: the asteroids in the very close proximity to the bomb don't suffer from any damage, until they're hit by the wave.

There are not thousand ways the device provides energy, and that's what Saxton's figures is supposed to be about.
You don't talk about gigatons of energy, a military term, when a vast amount of that energy will be completely wasted.
It can only be relative to the amount of destruction it will achieve.

Besides, the weapon does not show the ability to achieve features equivalent to all sorts of more classical feats requiring gigatons of energy.
The only thing it manages to do is shattering rock, which can be observed at being quite low, in comparison to the ICS claim.

And let's get real. Those gigatons of energy, if they really existed, would only be generated for the sheer creation of the wave. Because if they're actually released, not only would this have been accompagnated by cataclysmic effects, but it would also make the device pointless, since it would be like detonating a two digits gigaton device inside rock, to supposedly do a clean job by using a disc that would release 175.44 KT per second over its entire perimeter.

That's like exploding a two ton bomb ontop some guy's head, because you wanted a mechanism that would violently propel a pointy metallic shard into his skull.
So instead of using a gun, you end using a weapon that will literally vaporize him. Kinda defeats the point of using a complicated mechanism to obtain a cleaner cut.

Another thing:

If the seismic charges work on setting off a vibrational frequency in an impacted target that causes it to literally shake apart into pieces, would this not also generate enough heating to bring the material to the glowing point, if the molecules are moved so quickly? The lack therefore as pointed out tends to suggest another kind of effect than just simple DET.
-Mike

Looks like a mix of a sound weapon that would cause sudden vibrations on a very small surface, coupled to a tidal forcefield of some sort that pushes matter forward. A mix between a lightsabre and a vibroblade. The sheer violence of the process and displacement, at a very small scale (the disc's thickness, a few decimeters) means that smaller asteroids will violently explode into dust and debris, while the bigger ones will only see only the region close to the disc shatter, but the sudden acceleration will cause some friction up to the point where rock will glow, while the majority of the bigger asteroids will just separate into bigger blocks and drift away.

[Nonamer]

Reminds me of the Seismic charge calcs I did on the SB.com forum. Not sure if want to dig them up again (they're a in a messy thread), but the calcs are pretty similar: about a few hundred KT, maybe low MT range at most, per seismic charge.

I'd like to see them though. Did you post as Nonamer, at SB.com?

I'm curious to what they look like.
The 1 kiloton into a 100 m wide asteroid is an absurd claim. I used it as the high end, because it can only be that.

When the small asteroids, next to the origin of the explosion, get sliced by the wave, there's no molten rock to be seen. The roughly 10 meters wide one seen in the animation above, in the OP, shows no sign of vapourization or fusion. It is simply shattered. The power is therefore low.

It is only when the asteroid is too big to be entirely shattered and expanded fast enough, that the wave does superficially heats up the thin surface of the rock where it was cut.
That's why the 1 kiloton figure is just too high. Going down by one order of magnitude is, at the very least, the way to go.

http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?t=96560

It's buried somewhere near the end of that ugly thread. In summary, it's about 0.1 KT per asteroid to destroy it, which gives up in the territory of about 125 KT. I also wrote an email about some of the problems of the ICS as well. You want me to forward it to you? (original recipient never replied)

[Mr. Oragahn]

http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?t=96560

It's buried somewhere near the end of that ugly thread. In summary, it's about 0.1 KT per asteroid to destroy it, which gives up in the territory of about 125 KT.

This thread actually a link, posted by you, to the first thread I reference in the calculation post, a few posts above.
They're the ones I've quoted.

I quote Plushie's reaction to the calcs:

You have 13.5 gigatons applied to a circle, and you need 0.1 kt per meter of circumference to destroy 100m asteroids. You get a circle with about a radius of 215,000 km. That will be the maximum radius of destruction.

Then the maximum radius of destruction is indeed 215,000 km.

In your rush to prove a contradiction, you forget. The ICS is canon source until proven otherwise. Since there is no way to establish an upper limit on it, then there is no way to prove otherwise.

He forgets that it also means the wave will last for long, hours, and that with such a range, considering how close to Geonosis the asteroid belt was, Jango fired weapons which would hit the planet and damage the surface.
That probably explains how the Republic forces landed on Geonosis by surprise: the insects were in awe, looking at the beautiful blue disks in the sky, and didn't see the enemy ships coming in.

Nevermind if there is no solid target being that large where the mine could be used on. Then why make it so completely overkill. No, not overkill. Wasteful. Obviously it's a system that is only efficient against solid targets. Probably extremely good as a ground bombardment weapon, or something ground related.
Therefore, considering the way the weapon works, you want to have a rather controllable effect, otherwise you'd just bombard the places with typical ICS troutaton yields.
Yet, this weapon is supposed to have a range of, excuse, a couple of moons or something?
Pluu-eez.

Of course, the fact that we see no extra destruction, no wave continuing in any direction, during the later large angle shots above Geonosis, is not a concern to them.

Because it's canon, you know. Canonized bullshit, but canon nonetheless. So I assume that if a guide says that Yoda is three meters tall, then you shut up, because it's canon.
Their logic is baffling, really.

There's another point. The video I uses is not detailed enough to tell me if we can see the second ring on the Slave-I's sensor screen. You know, the thing that's all in nasty and angry red.
All I see is Obi-Wan's ship, and plenty of dust and debris. I can't see a ring in that.




Could someone make a couple of HD DVD caps of the sensor screen please?




EDIT: I think we can see the ring on the sensors screen. However, Jango is flying along a rather linear path, towards the hollow asteroid, when he's looking at this aft-sensors.
When Obi-Wan follows in, the camera jumps into his fighter's cockpit, face to face, so we get a close angle on Obi-Wan's face.
We don't any debris, dust or any blue wave in the background.
The camera returns to Jango going into the asteroid, then jumps back into Obi-Wan's cockpit once more, as he enters the asteroid as well, and again, we see no trace of asteroid destruction, at any distance. No flying debris, no dust, no blue ring.

But we have ample evidence that when the asteroids are destroyed, it causes great mayhem and mess. There's plenty of bits of various sizes flying left and right.
We see nothing of that.

When Jango and Obi-Wan exit the asteroid, the camera offers us two great views of the asteroid field, and even Geonosis.
When Jango exits the asteroid, the camera is first inside the asteroid, near the exit, and the Slave-I is seeing reaching the end of the tunnel, at a distance.
Then, we're exactly on the tunnel's exit, outside, looking at the hole. The Slave-I flies over, so the camera tilts backwards to keep it in check as Jango loops up.
When Obi-Wan comes out, arppoaches the exit, we get the same view from inside the tunnel.
Then the camera is zapped to a "camping" position, above the exit point, from where the Slave-I's coming, and thus the angle is completely different. It is downward, preying upon Obi-Wan's fighter. This time, we see the planet.

Then starts the pursuit, and the camera moves in all directions, banks left and right, pans around, rotates, so we see all the local region of the asteroid field. There's no single angle that is missed.

I'll probably post screencaps. But they won't be enough when it comes the sensor screen, so my former request still stands.

And once more, no debris, no dust, no blue ring, no activity whatsoever. Remember that the ring moves at less than 150 m/s. It can't be that far at the time the laser shower begins.

Again, there is no sort of activity of any kind, which would be the case if a destructive wave had been going on for quite some time.

I also wrote an email about some of the problems of the ICS as well. You want me to forward it to you? (original recipient never replied)

Maybe post it in the ICS thread, if you feel there are more points to add to Batman's and KaneStarkiller's concessions.

[Nonamer]

I mean email it to you, since there are a bunch of images sent with it and I don't want to find an photo host.

[Jedi Master Spock]

Frankly, I like the suggestion that this weapon is supposed to have some relationship to a gravitic implosion device.

In particular, my instinct is to suggest a kinetic weapon based on the "release" of an accretion disc. A strong temporary artificially generated local gravity field sucks matter inward at high speed, giving it additional kinetic energy in the accretion phase; the field collapses, and the matter stops accelerating.

Since it happens to be moving in a tight circle, this means it fans outwards on the tangent lines, high speed ejecta slicing through everything in the area.

The only problem is speed. 200 m/s is not fast enough. 300 m/s is not fast enough. If we take a tenth kiloton as the yield of the device, and assume that ten tons of matter are ejected, we need a velocity of 9 kilometers per second.

We could assume that it's heated - but if it's heated enough to make up the difference between 300 m/s and 9,000 km/s, then it's going to require additional mechanisms simply to contain it in a ring form. We're talking about an ion soup temperature range here - high energy plasma. I suppose trying to explain turbolasers makes that idea nothing new, but it's still not a great fit. Treating it as a kinetic weapon would be a very elegant solution - if only the ejecta moved quickly enough.

Granted, low speed ejecta is the sort of thing that we could ascribe to drama-oriented VFX - on the scale at which a fighter is visible, a 10-100 km/s shock wave simply doesn't engage the audience's attention. It is highly sophisticated and potent technology at that level, clearly, but only partially supported by the VFX at that point.