Genesis after TWOK?

[Mike DiCenso]

Batman wrote:
Which is a process that NETS them Valentons of energy, not requires it and I'm afraid the Genesis torpedo is lost tech, and oh, both the sun and the planet were ALREADY THERE.

The sun in the Mutara sector appeared to be there already, but I think if you actually watch the movie, you'll see that you're confusing the Regula One planetoid with the later, Earth-sized Genesis planet. Genesis actually was shown being formed from the Mutara nebula after the Genesis device on the Reliant went off. Big difference there.

Whether or not the information on Genesis remains such that the Federatin could re-create it is another matter altogether.

The difference being, we have a canon source for them 200GT MTLs. We do NOT for MT/GT photorps. And have you ever bothered to work out the fuel requirements for M/AM power generation to match Wars ?

You mean you think you have a canon source for 200 GT HTLs. We have no actual movie quote or visual confirmation that anything of sort exists for SW weapons outside of the Death Stars' superlaser, and most of the EU remains in large disagreement with AOTC ICS. As for ST matching those levels of firepower with torpedoes, they could, using 4 photon torpedoes, each one using very dense reactants (anti-iron or anti-gold) to create a 2,000 kg warhead for a yeild of approximately 43 GT (169 GT total). But that's hardly necessary as KT,MT, and at the very upper limit: single-digit GT range firepower is all that is needed to match up with canon SW movie firepower, and only requires a few tens of kilograms of antimatter at most.
-Mike

[Who is like God arbour]

The sun in the Mutara sector appeared to be there already [...]

What has given you that idea?

I have never seen a sun in the mutara sector in the movie before the genesis device was activated.

I hope you don't thinkt that there was one only because there was a light source.

This light source could have been the mutara nebula which was glowing because it contains high levels of static discharge and comprises largely of ionized gases.

• • 

You should have a better reason to assume that there was a sun.

[Batman]

[...]and I'm afraid the Genesis torpedo is lost tech, and oh, both the sun and the planet were ALREADY THERE[...]

Prove it!
Following your own logic, only because we haven't seen it after the events of TWOK, doesn't has to mean that it is lost tech.

Yes it does. The fact that the only guy who knew EXACTLY how it worked was killed and that the only existing prototype was destroyed, together with the fact that we NEVER EVER see Genesis used again sort of indicates that it's no longer around.

• We know of many accords which are banning certain kind of weapons. The Genesis device could easily have been banned too.

Quite possibly. IF that were ever mentioned anywhere. It isn't.

They had not only the genesis device in the cave of Regula but data storages too.

• These could have brought back to Earth (according to the TWOK novel, they were in fact brought back to Earth by the Enterpise).

The novels are not canon, and anyway as that data did NOT include David's modifications to the Genesis device they are useless for creating one.

Dr. Carol Markus has survived and was scientist and project leader of the Genesis project. Prove that she has known not enough to reconstruct the genesis device!

That'd be the part where David did a modification to it (you know, the one that actually made it WORK, you know) she didn't know about.

Prove that even with the scientific advancements, they couldn't reconstruct the project even without any data from the original crew and their records!

I don't have to. YOU show me that they CAN.

Prove that it is lost tech - although it seems to me to be more plausible that it is not lost! Convince me!

The fact that they DIDN'T use it ever again, even in situations when it would have greatly benefited them, comes to mind. And you DO know you are asking me to prove a negative.

[Mike DiCenso]

Mike DiCenso wrote:
The sun in the Mutara sector appeared to be there already

Who is like God arbour wrote:

What has given you that idea?

I have never seen a sun in the mutara sector in the movie before the genesis device was activated.

I hope you don't thinkt that there was one only because there was a light source.

Which is why I chose the word "appears" when describing the situation, as there was a strong light source illuminating the Regula planetoid from a direction 90 degrees opposite of the main body of the Mutara nebula:

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Image:Regula.jpg

A nearby star? Possibly. Is it the one that is clearly seen at the end of TWOK, and in TSFS? We don't know.
-Mike

[Batman]

And I WOULD like to know how you, WILGA, know that english is NOT my mother tongue.

If I'm not mistaken, I even know that your mother tongue is German.

It is. Is my grammar STILL that bad after all those years?

On the matter of the Mutara sun already being there, while I DO think we saw it in several shots before Khan triggering Genesis, I am no longer CERTAIN that it was. I'll have to rewatch TWOK. Not that it changes the fact that collapsing the Nebula was a net energy GAIN...

[Who is like God arbour]

Yes it does. The fact that the only guy who knew EXACTLY how it worked was killed and that the only existing prototype was destroyed, together with the fact that we NEVER EVER see Genesis used again sort of indicates that it's no longer around.

An indication is no proof.

In VOY: "The Omega Directive" Kathryn Janeway mentions "Marcus and her Genesis Device" as a comparison to other technologies deemed dangerously powerful. The Omega molecule and its production is prohibited. One could assume - as I have said already and what would fit in reams of other examples - that the Genesis device is classified too.

Besides, David has given away the fact that he has used protomatter in the Genesis matrix to Lieutenant Saavik.

Quite possibly. IF that were ever mentioned anywhere. It isn't.

No. But it would be plausible. And that is enough.

The novels are not canon, and anyway as that data did NOT include David's modifications to the Genesis device they are useless for creating one.

Correct. But it is also not contraticted by the movie. And again, it would be plausible, what is more than enough.

And as I have said already, Lieutenant Saavik has found out that David has used protomatter.

That'd be the part where David did a modification to it (you know, the one that actually made it WORK, you know) she didn't know about.

And as I have said already, Lieutenant Saavik has found out that David has used protomatter.

I don't have to. YOU show me that they CAN.

It would be plausible, what is more than enough.

The fact that they DIDN'T use it ever again, even in situations when it would have greatly benefited them, comes to mind.

As reams of examples are showing, the Federation doesn't use weapons of mass destruction - even in dire situations.

And you DO know you are asking me to prove a negative.

No. We know that they have had the technology. You argue that they have lost it. That is an event. If it has happened, as you claim it, you have to prove it. What has caused the loss of it?

Prove that they have lost it!

[Batman]

Yes it does. The fact that the only guy who knew EXACTLY how it worked was killed and that the only existing prototype was destroyed, together with the fact that we NEVER EVER see Genesis used again sort of indicates that it's no longer around.

An indication is no proof.

As long as you know you are again asking me to prove a negative.

In VOY: "The Omega Directive" Kathryn Janeway mentions "Marcus and her Genesis Device" as a comparison to other technologies deemed dangerously powerful. The Omega molecule and its production is prohibited. One could assume - as I have said already and what would fit in reams of other examples - that the Genesis device is classified too.

I eagerly await evidence showing that the technology needed for the Genesis Device is STILL AVAILABLE, what with the thing requiring protomatter to actually work and nobody BUT David Marcus knowing how to actually make it work with the rest of the Genesis device (however, eventually, flawedly).

Besides, David has given away the fact that he has used protomatter in the Genesis matrix to Lieutenant Saavik.

And that naturally gives them all and any information about HOW he did that-oh wait, it DOESN'T.

Quite possibly. IF that were ever mentioned anywhere. It isn't.

No. But it would be plausible. And that is enough.

No it isn't.
[uote]

The novels are not canon, and anyway as that data did NOT include David's modifications to the Genesis device they are useless for creating one.

Correct. But it is also not contraticted by the movie. And again, it would be plausible, what is more than enough.[/quote]
No it isn't. If it WERE you wouldn't be whining about 200GT MTLs.

And as I have said already, Lieutenant Saavik has found out that David has used protomatter.

So basically you are saying that if one knows nuclear weapons use uranium, that knowledge is sufficient to enable one to build them.

That'd be the part where David did a modification to it (you know, the one that actually made it WORK, you know) she didn't know about.

And as I have said already, Lieutenant Saavik has found out that David has used protomatter.

See above.

I don't have to. YOU show me that they CAN.

It would be plausible, what is more than enough.

No it isn't.

The fact that they DIDN'T use it ever again, even in situations when it would have greatly benefited them, comes to mind.

As reams of examples are showing, the Federation doesn't use weapons of mass destruction - even in dire situations.

That does support your point that the Feds wouldn't use it if they actually had it. It absolutely fails to support they actually have it in the first place.

And you DO know you are asking me to prove a negative.

No. We know that they have had the technology. You argue that they have lost it. That is an event. If it has happened, as you claim it, you have to prove it. What has caused the loss of it?

You don't understand what proving a negative actually MEANS, do you.

[Who is like God arbour]

• I have not demanded that you should prove that the Federation has not the Genesis technology.
  • That would be - at leat in Germany - a negative proof. It is not impossible per se to bring forward a negative proof. But it is usually very difficult and results in a reversal of the burden of proof.
  But I merely wanted that you prove that they have lost the Genesis technology. That's what you claim has happened.
  We know that they have had it in the first place. Something must have happened, if they have lost it. There has to be an event wich resulted in the loss of all relevant informations to reconstruct a new Genesis device.
  
  To demand that you describe the events that resulted - according to you - undoubtly in the loss of the Genesis technology, is not a call for a negative proof.
  • I wouldn't demand that you prove that the necessary informations to build a new Genesis device aren't saved in some database or stored in some archive somewhere in the Federation. I agree that that would be impossible.
• But that it is not used after TWOK proves nothing.
  
  • • • BONES:
      But dear Lord, are we intelligent enough to -- Suppose, this thing were used where life already exists?
      
      • SPOCK:
      It would destroy such life in favor of its new matrix --
      
      • BONES:
      It's new -- have you any idea what you're saying?
      
      • SPOCK:
      I was not attempting to evaluate its moral implications, Doctor. As a matter of cosmic history, it has always been easier to destroy than to create --
      
      • BONES:
      Not anymore! Now you can do both at the same time! According to myth, the earth was created in six days. Watch out: here comes Genesis; we'll do it for you in six minutes --
  Bones has seen the danger of the Genesis device at once.
  
  
  • • • MORROW:
      Jim, in your absence, Genesis has become a galactic controversy...
      Until the Federation Council makes policy, you are all under orders not to discuss with anyone your knowledge of Genesis...
      Consider it a quarantined planet. And a forbidden subject.
      
      [...]
      
      The Council has ordered that no one but the science team goes to Genesis!
  It was only natural that the Genesis technology - not only the created planet - would become a galactic controversy because its inherent danger.
  
  That's why it is plausible to assume that the Genesis technology is prohibited and classified - as well as omega particels, subspace weapons, metagenic weapons or ship-cloacking technology for the Federation.
  
  That's why the fact that we have only once heard of it again, can't imply that the technology is lost - and a fortiori can't prove it.
• David Marcus was only one who has worked on the Genesis device. It was team work. The others were convinced that they can develop the Genesis device. Dr. Carol Marcus was so convinced that they could have success that she has introduced the project to the Federation Council.
  
  That's why it is not as simple as you wanted to illustrate it:

  So basically you are saying that if one knows nuclear weapons use uranium, that knowledge is sufficient to enable one to build them.

  The knowledge that protomatter was used would be enough if one would reconstruct the Genesis device according to the official constructional drawing in which protomatter aren't mentioned. This someone would discover that the so build device doesn't work. But he would know that the protomatter - which is not mentioned in the offical constructional drawing - is still missing. And now he would ponder. How is the device supposed to work? Why does the device not work? Where could protomatter help? Why has Dr. David Markus used it and where would he have used it?
  
  If this someone is reasonably competent in science, he should be able to understand the underlying functional principle and to reconstruct a working Genesis device - maybe even without protomatter.
  
  Or do you want to claim that David Markus has constructed the Genesis device single-handedly with for nobody reproducible scientific perceptions. If you do so, I hope you have a proof.
• We have neither seen the destruction of the Regula planetoid nor the destruction of the Regula space lab.
  
  Do you want to claim that they were destroyed? If you do so, I hope you have a proof.
  
  Otherwise we have to assume that there were Genesis constructional drawings saved somewhere. Unless you think that they have memorized the whole thing so that they wouldn't need constructional drawings to build another device after they have finished the prototype.

[Batman]

• I have not demanded that you should prove that the Federation has not the Genesis technology.
  • That would be - at leat in Germany - a negative proof. It is not impossible per se to bring forward a negative proof.But it is usually very difficult and results in a reversal of the burden of proof.

How, exactly, is german law relevant to the versus debate?
Yes it IS impossible to prove a negative and asking me to prove the Federation no longer has Genesis technology IS asking me to prove a negative.
A negative I have no need to prove to begin with since there's ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE for the POSITIVE being true.

But I merely wanted that you prove that they have lost the Genesis technology. That's what you claim has happened.

The complete and utter lack of Genesis ever showing up again sort of points to that being the case.

We know that they have had it in the first place.

No they didn't. MARCUS had.

Something must have happened, if they have lost it.

That'd be Marcus' death and the destruction of the Genesis device.

There has to be an event which resulted in the loss of all relevant informations to reconstruct a new Genesis device.

Again, Marcus' death and the destruction of the only known prototype.

To demand that you describe the events that resulted - according to you - undoubtly in the loss of the Genesis technology, is not a call for a negative proof.

The events happen in the bloody movies. And you're trying to use semantics to get out of having to admit you asked me to prove a negative.
Because I don't HAVE to show the events that resulted in them losing Genesis (regardless of the fact that I did). The simple fact that Genesis did never, ever show up again means that YOU have to show that they did NOT.

[*]But that it is not used after TWOK proves nothing.

Like hell it doesn't.

]BONES:[/list]But dear Lord, are we intelligent enough to -- Suppose, this thing were used where life already exists?

• SPOCK:

It would destroy such life in favor of its new matrix --

• BONES:

It's new -- have you any idea what you're saying?

• SPOCK:

I was not attempting to evaluate its moral implications, Doctor. As a matter of cosmic history, it has always been easier to destroy than to create --

• BONES:

Not anymore! Now you can do both at the same time! According to myth, the earth was created in six days. Watch out: here comes Genesis; we'll do it for you in six minutes --[/list][/list]
Bones has seen the danger of the Genesis device at once.

One more reason why we SHOULD have seen it used.

• • • MORROW:
    Jim, in your absence, Genesis has become a galactic controversy...
    Until the Federation Council makes policy, you are all under orders not to discuss with anyone your knowledge of Genesis...
    Consider it a quarantined planet. And a forbidden subject.
    [...]
    The Council has ordered that no one but the science team goes to Genesis!

It was only natural that the Genesis technology - not only the created planet - would become a galactic controversy because its inherent danger.
That's why it is plausible to assume that the Genesis technology is prohibited and classified - as well as omega particels, subspace weapons, metagenic weapons or ship-cloacking technology for the Federation.

I agree. It doesn't do anything to show that they actually still HAVE it however.

That's why the fact that we have only once heard of it again, can't imply that the technology is lost - and a fortiori can't prove it.

Asking me to prove a negative again...
I do NOT have to prove the technology is lost. As it NEVER EVER throughout post-TWOK/TSFS Trek shows up it is YOUR job to show it ISN'T!

[*]David Marcus was only one who has worked on the Genesis device. It was team work. The others were convinced that they can develop the Genesis device. Dr. Carol Marcus was so convinced that they could have success that she has introduced the project to the Federation Council.

Happily ignoring the fact that she was confident they could do it thanks to Marcus UNKNOWN TO ANY OF THE OTHERS used protomatter to make it work.

That's why it is not as simple as you wanted to illustrate it:

As a matter of fact yes it is. Carol was confident it would work reliably because she had no clue about the protomatter.

So basically you are saying that if one knows nuclear weapons use uranium, that knowledge is sufficient to enable one to build them.

The knowledge that protomatter was used would be enough if one would reconstruct the Genesis device according to the official constructional drawing in which protomatter aren't mentioned.

Because...you say so. Not that there's any evidence those drawings survived to begin with.

Otherwise we have to assume that there were Genesis constructional drawings saved somewhere.

We most definitely do NOT have to assume that. I happen to agree that it is LIKELY but there's no information in the movie actually CONFIRMING that.

[Cpl Kendall]

Didn't Kirk say that the Regula stations databanks had been wiped by Khan? If so than the data would have been lost with Reliant.

[Batman]

Didn't Kirk say that the Regula stations databanks had been wiped by Khan? If so than the data would have been lost with Reliant.

Assuming Regula and Reliant were the only places where that informations was stored. Apparently I'm required to show they WEREN'T.

[Cpl Kendall]

Seeing as Admiral Kirk only had access to the brief report that Carol Marcus filed with Starfleet Command that was outdated as noted by Kirk in the briefing, it's unlikely that there was other info available or stored elsewhere. Otherwise Kirk and Co. would have been able to access more up to date info on the way to Regula.

[Mike DiCenso]

In the script there are lines about the the Marcuses and their staff having erased the "data banks" and "memory cells" containing the Genesis information. However, that did not make it to the final version of the movie as far as I can find.
-Mike

[Cpl Kendall]

Hmm, I think it's in the novelisation. I definetly remember coming across it somewhere.

[Cpl Kendall]

Yes, I know. That's unfortunate as the novelisations often add a great deal of quality in depth material to the universe. Of course the greater ST EU is possibly in a more dismal state than the SW EU (and that's saying something), with the exception of the Vanguard series. So maybe it's for the best that the ST EU is non-canon.