Starfleet Jedi

I was just thinking about the Vulcans first contact with the Terran Empire and was wondering how in the hell humanity not only held thier own but conqured the Vulcans, Andorians, and Tellarite.

Unless I'm mistaken Mirror Earth was like Trek Earth in that was recovering from a world war III type scenrio that most likely involved nukes. Humanity had to on the low end in terms of population at that time and overall conditions it appeared for the planet was third world level. Not awe inspiring at all. Granted I admit things couldn't have been quite that bad even in the "real" time line. Thier must have been some sort of goverment or institution left after the war to buy the warp drive as Cochrane said was his main reason for building the thing in the first place. I highly doubt two-bit despots ruling over nothing but blasted ruins, and trading spam for gun ammo would be purchasing advanced technolagy that has no practical application by itself. To that I mean Cochrane's ship was to small and impractical,needing to use boosters to aschieve lift off is costly, to be of much use by itself. Another thing to add that Earth wasn't as bad off as it seemed was is the fact that like a decade after the maiden flight roughly 200 colonists left Earth for a nine year trip to another world. I'm no expert but that is one hell of a leap from small warp shuttle to a starship big enough to hold 200 people. Added to this of course in the Mirror verse's case would be the technolagy rich Vulcan starship "liberated" by the humans.

Taking account all this it should have been a curbstomp for the Vulcans. Earth was confined to a single world, had to have a low population, and was forced to both back engineer radicaly more advanced technolagy and build a fleet virtualy from scratch. The Vulcans on the other hand had a handful of planets to draw fresh recuirts with and already possesed atleast a small fleet of starships.

Added to this is the fact that thier are some aggressive races out thier who would react negativly to an expanding human race. The Paranoid Andorians I would think would quickly turn on the aggressive humans. If for no other reason then because Earth might attack them, which it did. The Klingons were a major power back then and only a few days away as well and no doubt would view any upstart empire with distrust. To this list you could add the Xindi, while fractured were a pretty powerful (group of a) race, and possibly the Romulan star empire through they are pretty isolatinist in policy.

Comments? Ideas? I know this is delving into pure speculation, but I wondered what, if any, thoughts were on the matter.

With out Vuclans limiting them and by limiting their own contact with other races, humans could have very well allowed various 'wars' to play out and then assaulted the other races when they least expected it. The Vuclans, Andorians, and Tellerites would be caught off guard when the isolationist humans who had little if any contact suddenly began field weapons at least somewhat on their power level.

As for rebuilding the planet. You have the only vessel with phasers, warp drive, and various other nice technologies, no one can exactly oppose your rule with that one ship... Cochrane may very well have been the first Emperor of Earth because of it. Once united and not bickering (or rather not openly bickering) it would have been easy to rebuild industry. With the Vulcan technology at their disposal they would have had Shields and Warp technology YEARS beyond what they developed on their own during the same time, leaving more study for weapons and transporters.

Hell, the Transporter alone would have been devestating to the other races.


On a final note: The humans in the mirror universe appear to be on at least speaking terms with the romulans by DS9, they very well may have had their help to boot.

Trinoya wrote:With out Vuclans limiting them and by limiting their own contact with other races, humans could have very well allowed various 'wars' to play out and then assaulted the other races when they least expected it. The Vuclans, Andorians, and Tellerites would be caught off guard when the isolationist humans who had little if any contact suddenly began field weapons at least somewhat on their power level.

That does make some sense. The Andorians were a tad trigger happy and assumed both the Vulcans and the Tellerites wanted to kill them. It wouldn't take much to cause an all out shooting war. Still you think the Vulcans which were a tad paranoid in thier own right would atleast keep an eye on the race that brutally murdered one of thier crews and would have seen them arming for interplantary war.

Trinoya wrote:As for rebuilding the planet. You have the only vessel with phasers, warp drive, and various other nice technologies, no one can exactly oppose your rule with that one ship... Cochrane may very well have been the first Emperor of Earth because of it. Once united and not bickering (or rather not openly bickering) it would have been easy to rebuild industry.

No matter what it should have taken years to put Earth back togather. Of course I'm sure the Terran Empire employs a military first policy. Who cares if thier are people starving on half the planet as long as your soldiers are well fed and armed. This even has the added effect of making the armed forces more desirable tothe common person.

Trinoya wrote:Hell, the Transporter alone would have been devestating to the other races.

I'm not so sure. Didn't other races already have it? I know one did in that episode were they were dumping industrial waste I believe on a pre gunpowder based society.

Trinoya wrote:On a final note: The humans in the mirror universe appear to be on at least speaking terms with the romulans by DS9, they very well may have had their help to boot.

I'm not sure how much that could help early on. The Romulans never struck me as big players until the 24 century. Bear in mind back in the day they lack antimatter reactors and relied on "simple impulse" to power thier warships and used primarly fusion warheads something earth by the time of the war was slowly phasing out. Like they would have later in time 22nd century Romulans had some techno aces up thier sleeves to even the odds, the holocloak, those remote controlled sentry ships but I have doubts if they have the raw number strenght.

On the flip side of all this is that we know the romulans helped form the Federation from the Earth-Romulan war generaly cited as a common defense against the enemy. We also know the Romulans did thier best to breed contempt and mistrust between the major players, Vulcans, Andorians, etc. Such a state of "infighting" would be just what a young, eager, determined race like say genocidal humans armed with advanced technolagy need to get a foothold in the galaxy.

I can almost see the Terran ruler sending a thank you card to the Romulan Empire. Of course it would be a bomb attached but the sentiment would still be the same.:)

Still you think the Vulcans which were a tad paranoid in thier own right would atleast keep an eye on the race that brutally murdered one of thier crews and would have seen them arming for interplantary war.

This is assuming the Vulcans even knew that the crew was murdered. Remember, it was a random science mission and they were just 'passing' through not really even looking at the pre-warp society that was earth. Odds are one day they noticed humans had warp drive and were becoming isolationist (since you don't start wars you know you can't win) and decided to leave well enough alone, as is their normal policy.

That said: Empires rebuild quickly. England, Germany, Japan, all are perfect examples of areas completely obliterated by war that rebuilt in a short period of time... the key is to have a unifying factor and once you have that you have everything else you need. Also, the earth wasn't as bad off as people believe, one needs only watch first contact to see it isn't that screwed up, just disorginized.

As for the transporter, of the four big races only the humans appeared to have it, a few other races had it elsewhere, but only humans had it amongst them (hence why everyone docked with Enterprise).

And I still find a Romulan-Human alliance instead of an Earth-Romulan war far more likely in the long run. Since Romulans could in fact go to warp, we see this in Enterprise, and did have reasonable weapons I believe they would see the value in being allies with the Terrans. They are also the ONLY race I believe that was established at that point who we DIDN'T see fighting earth. (even the klingons got jacked in the intro).

Other important facts:

Empire earth = Klingon Civil War, Andorian/Vulcan/Tellerite war, unchecked romulans, no Xindi attack (since the humans would launch a full military strike instead of sending a single ship), and the subjegation of Denobula (which most likely was the first world they conquered as denobulans and Vulcans were almost given equal rights in the Terran Empire).

And eventually, we know, they all do try to ban together and stop their enslavement, but one Defiant later and that ends a miserable failure for the rest of the galaxy and big victory for Hoshi.

Trinoya wrote:This is assuming the Vulcans even knew that the crew was murdered. Remember, it was a random science mission and they were just 'passing' through not really even looking at the pre-warp society that was earth. Odds are one day they noticed humans had warp drive and were becoming isolationist (since you don't start wars you know you can't win) and decided to leave well enough alone, as is their normal policy.

Good point. If the Terran empire dismantled the ship or hid it all a search party would notice is a devesated world. Scans no doubt would be from long range sensors and all the vulcans would be dead ensuring no lifesigns. Earth would be bypassed thus leaving it in the dark void of space as it rebuilds and rearms.

That said: Empires rebuild quickly. England, Germany, Japan, all are perfect examples of areas completely obliterated by war that rebuilt in a short period of time... the key is to have a unifying factor and once you have that you have everything else you need. Also, the earth wasn't as bad off as people believe, one needs only watch first contact to see it isn't that screwed up, just disorginized.

True but even best case scenario would be atleast a decade if we judge off of Nazi Germany before your back at full strenght and considering the radioactive and ruined landscape rebuilding owuld take some time. I mean a nuclear war should leave the world much more devesated then anything we have previously encountered.

As I mentioned in my first post I realise Earth can't be as bad off as you might first think, but it is in bad shape.

As for the transporter, of the four big races only the humans appeared to have it, a few other races had it elsewhere, but only humans had it amongst them (hence why everyone docked with Enterprise).

Possible, but I'm pretty sure the Klingons had it but I don't know if you are considering them the "four big races" or not. As to not beaming onto the enterprise at that time most races transporters were still new and reserved largely for cargo not living subjects.

And I still find a Romulan-Human alliance instead of an Earth-Romulan war far more likely in the long run. Since Romulans could in fact go to warp, we see this in Enterprise, and did have reasonable weapons

Of course they can go to Warp, I never questioned this. I meant by simple impulse that they use fusion to power thier starships not M/AM like say the NX class. This no doubts limits the range and tour of duty of thier starships. Which would be a drawback. As to weapons we know they have disrupters and presumably from dialoge from "Balance of Terror" (TOS) we know the Earth-Romulan war was fought with fusion weapons so something like the spatial torpedo Earth was already phasing out of use in the regulare timeline.

I concur an alliance could be forged. Both would be the underdogs against the already established combatents,Klingons, Vulcans, Andorians, etc. However I would have serious doubts about the long term stability of the alliance. Two vipers will eventfully attack and kill one another, if only after all thier prey is gone.

They are also the ONLY race I believe that was established at that point who we DIDN'T see fighting earth. (even the klingons got jacked in the intro).

True but that could be becasue of their islolationist attitude and prefrence to fight behind the scences. However if thier was an alliance it must have been only the barest one possible(ie lets both attack alien A) because if they had an alliance even half as good with the Romulans as the Klingons had with them in the 23rd century real timeline I would expect holocloaks would be standard on Terran Empire vessels. Instead they used a suliban cloak, which I know is waaaay better then what the Romulan could offer, but it was never even brought up.

Empire earth = Klingon Civil War

That assumes the future guy still exists and wants to destroy the Klingon empire. Considering the huge departer from the timeline in Mirrorverse I think it's best if we just leave that option off of the table.

unchecked romulans,

Which at the very least means choas and discord if not outright war.

no Xindi attack

No Xindi. I willing to bet the penalty for attacking Earth is to have your entire race disposed off. On the bright side the Terran Empire should have obtained the plans for a mini-deathstar!:)

Wouldn't you know it, I lost my response :( I'll just summarize for you: Basically I agree with everything in principle above with the exception of it taking a long period of time for earth to begin rebuilding. Remember, with a full Vulcan ship at their command they would have a lot of technologies the Vulcans essentially kept from them. No post-atomic horror, no fractured societies... just ones person will to speed up the process... I'd say 5-7 years within the unaffected areas, and 20 in the effected.

That said, it is a point that there is no evidence one way or another (although I could argue the how easy it would be in the 'nice sections' that is a given regardless) so we have nothing more to go on other than mere speculation.

Final note: Earth/Romulan alliance does have some basis in DS9, or at least some sort of 'good will' between the two. Of course, with no federation, dominion, Borg, and just the alliance present.... I'd be willing to bet the Romulans have a large territory under their control by then in the mirror universe.