Starfleet Jedi

A isoton related discussion, which started on this page.

The same goes for the Voyager episode Rise.
They have expected that one torpedo with the used setting would be enough to shatter the asteroid enough. Why should they have used a higher setting if that would have been enough?
One can't conclude from this epeisode that the shown firepower is the upper limit.

Apparently, the goal was to destroy the asteroid, and a character simply stated that, after seeing the torp failing at destroying most of the asteroid, one of these torps should have been enough to vapourize it.
Of course, in such a moment, you can't be sure that he was coldly technical and that vapourize wasn't an hyperbole of any sort.
That said, it seems to be confirmed by Kim, who says that nothing more that 1cm wide debris should be remaining.
Looking at the recent asteroid busting simulations, and with certain documentaries I've seen about busting asteroids of different compositions if they were to threaten Earth, we saw that you needed to melt/vapourize a huge lot of an asteroid to create such small fragment, and even that would fail to a certain degree.

So in the end, the vapourization claim seems solid.

And RSA finds yields between 44 and 154.5 MT (1).

Here's what we could know about the method of destruction:

- The asteroid had to be instantly vapourized. Olivine is brittle, and the asteroid would break into large bits very fast.
- The blast would happen at the surface. However, as you have shown, there seems to be evidence that torpedoes can easily drill inside matter, so it could detonate inside, making the process much more efficient.
- The asteroid's density could be within 3000 kg/m³ and 7000 kg/m³, considering a mix of raw materials.

That's an averaged yield of 100 MT.

... Scorpion - with the stated maximum yield of 200 isotons for Mark VI photon torpedos, while a five million isoton yield would cause an explosion which could affect an entire star system and its shock wave would dispurse nanoprobes over a radius of five light years and a 54 isoton explosion would be enough to blow up a small planet - or last but not least: The Die is Cast.

And what do you know about isotons, exactly?
You may read the thread I linked to with more concern for details about the isoton thingy.

Vivftp has said the following:

I will note this line from VOY's Living Witness:

"One of the Voyager's torpedoes. Twenty five isoton yield. It could destroy an entire city within seconds."

25 isotons would destroy an entire city within seconds.
Not a country. Not a continent.

In the Omega Directive, a photon torpedoe raised to a yield of 54 isotons is enough to destroy a small planet (script written with the old definition of planet in mind).
They plan to boost the photon torpedoe to 80 isotons.

Yet, let's remember that they make it from a standard photon torpedoe.

Antimatter.

At best, they refined the process, which would suggest that standard torpedoes... like it or not, and nevermind if doesn't make much sense, seem to waste antimatter, or maybe waste a lot of energy... somehow.
Yet, with a few changes, they boost the yield to planet destroyer.
Of course, we know from Sagan's work, and contemporary confirmations by scientists, that to destroy a planet, you may not need more than 100 megatons, as long as you spread the damage strategically and thoroughly.

The modification could be about that: making the torpedoe spread its damage over a large area. Unfocus it.

A bit like a Genesis effect.

That's technobabble, but I don't think you can really smack me for doing so. It's Trek ffs. :)

In this light, isotons could be an unit which was probably created from factors such as level of final destruction on a standard M planet, efficiency of the reaction, intensity against X type of material used as a benchmark, etc.

Vivftp's post here outlines even more the lack of consistency of the unit.

He shows the size of a gravimetric warhead from Omega Directive (54 isotons), and the size of a warhead slightly bigger, filled with more explosive materials: enriched ultritium (DS9's A Time To Stand). That was 90 isotons.

Really, the increase can't be much.
The only problem lies in vivftp's calcs. We don't know where they are. I'll try to find them. RSA seems to think that Rise! would argue for yields such as 100 MT at least, or so.
vivftp thinks about 5 times lower yields.

There's the episode Night, but I'm unable to get any ref to the isoton term.

Taking vivftp's sayings regarding the beginning of Voyager; Voyager's torps were apparently rated at 6.5 isotons.
This would mean, with standard configuration, that it 1 isoton would equal a couple of megatons.
Rise came later in Voyager, so torps would probably have yields more in line with stuff from DS9/TNG, with yields in the tens of megatons.

Say 6.5 isoton = 50 megatons of destruction, according to parameters which are unknown, and not necessarily scaling up linearly either.
And that's largely above vivftp's own scale.

If scaled linearly, and assuming that it is strictly about about multiplying megatons by isotons, a 90 isoton torp would have a yield of 692.3 MT.

That said, this is an assumption I wouldn't make, considering the data presented earlier, showing that you can considerably increase the isoton scale of an antimatter torpedoe, without adding any extra antimatter, which largely points out that it's not a question of tons of TNT, but more a question of technobabble, efficiency and results over unknown accepted UFP benchmarks.

Remember, it's the same show which debades earlier, had an ounce (a couple of grams) of antimatter being able to crack a planet, or something like that.

That said, I think I'll also copy and paste that piece of text in a thread specifically dedicated to the isoton question.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:

Who is like God arbour wrote:... Scorpion - with the stated maximum yield of 200 isotons for Mark VI photon torpedos, while a five million isoton yield would cause an explosion which could affect an entire star system and its shock wave would dispurse nanoprobes over a radius of five light years and a 54 isoton explosion would be enough to blow up a small planet - or last but not least: The Die is Cast.

[...]

Say 6.5 isoton = 50 megatons of destruction

[...]

If 6,5 isotons would equal 50 megatons,
5'000'000 isotons would equal 38'461'538 megatons or 38 teratons.

• Do you really think, that 38 teratons are enough to cause an explosion which could affect an entire star system and would cause a shock wave, which could dispurse nanoprobes over a radius of five light years.
  • At which - one has to assume - they are either accelerated to very high relativistic velocities [still very unlikely] or dispursed through subspace [more likely]. It would be a useless weapon if the nanoprobes are dispursed over a radius of five light years with far less than a tenth c.

If 6,5 isotons would equal 50 megatons,
54 isotons would equal 415 megatons.

• Do you really think, that 415 megatons are enough to blow up a small planet?
  • I don't know Sagan's work. But somehow I doubt that a single photon torpedo could spread the damage as strategically and thoroughly as necessary according to Sagan's work.

We may not exactly know what an isoton is, but with such low figure, the described effects are certainly not achievable.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Of course, we know from Sagan's work, and contemporary confirmations by scientists, that to destroy a planet, you may not need more than 100 megatons, as long as you spread the damage strategically and thoroughly.

According to this article 100 MT aren't enough to destroy a planet but to cause "only" a Nuclear winter.

Just a note here, the asteroid in "Rise" was found later in the episode to not only consist of oviline (a natural mineral), but also of two artifical alloys, which in turn probably explain the (artifical) asteroid's resistance to being vaporized. Given that the true artifical nature of the asteroid was not known due in part that aspect of it being hidden, and that it could fool sensors into thinking it was nickel-iron in composition makes what happened all the more clearer.
-Mike

You know, I had an idea from watching Scorpion a couple days ago. A supernova destroys a star system. The borg's multikinetic neutronic mine can destroy a star system and that is 5 millions isotons. So, we can do the math. The problem is the varying strengths of the types of supernovas for an isoton range. I'd do the math myself to get the ranges for an equivilent range for a single isoton, but I'm having trouble finding figures for the different supernova types.

Who is like God arbour wrote:

Mr. Oragahn wrote:

Who is like God arbour wrote:... Scorpion - with the stated maximum yield of 200 isotons for Mark VI photon torpedos, while a five million isoton yield would cause an explosion which could affect an entire star system and its shock wave would dispurse nanoprobes over a radius of five light years and a 54 isoton explosion would be enough to blow up a small planet - or last but not least: The Die is Cast.

[...]

Say 6.5 isoton = 50 megatons of destruction

[...]

If 6,5 isotons would equal 50 megatons,
5'000'000,0 isotons would equal 38'461'538 megatons or 38 teratons.

• Do you really think, that 34 teratons are enough to cause an explosion which could affect an entire star system and would cause a shock wave, which could dispurse nanoprobes over a radius of five light years.

Range in space. A different matter as a whole, really. From the moment you can have a force that pushes probes so they can reach over five light years, same force could have them reach over many times that range... and more, until they hit something.

For the shockwave, it wouldn't be enough.

• At which - one has to assume - they are either accelerated to very high relativistic velocities [still very unlikely] or dispursed through subspace [more likely]. It would be a useless weapon if the nanoprobes are dispursed over a radius of five light years with far less than a tenth c.

[/list]

If they travel in subspace, then I guess you can paint any fancy picture about how a low force can push them so far.
What's the explanation behind the subspace travel, regarding the probes?

Can subspace affect normal spacetime?

If 6,5 isotons would equal 50 megatons,
54 isotons would equal 415 megatons.

Do you really think, that 415 megatons are enough to blow up a small planet?

Did someone talk about blowing up a small planet?
I just read "destroy a planet" I think. Am I wrong?

I don't know Sagan's work. But somehow I doubt that a single photon torpedo could spread the damage as strategically and thoroughly as necessary according to Sagan's work.

That, you don't know. Since they can increase the isoton figure many folds, without increasing the amount of M/AM, it has to be a technobabbled way to make the weapon more efficient.

Of course, we just don't know what isoton is, and what it's based on.

We may not exactly know what an isoton is, but with such low figure, the described effects are certainly not achievable.

I think it can be worked around.
Your mention of subspace may be a solution.

First, the 5 LY range. Obviously, as you said, travelling at c in real space would be long, very long for the probes. Five years seems to be a poor plan, for a faction which can cross space faster than light.
So yes, I agree on the use of subspace to send probes. This would show that the device would be rather complex.
The subspace range could be related to how long the probes will travel in subspace before the self sustained subspace ripple ends. The likely idea that the probes would be pointless in subspace would suppor the idea of a limited trip through subspace.
In subspace, teratons of energy to propel probes would be far more than enough to send them far away.

The use of subspace would be also a possible explanation as to how a shockwave manages to cover a whole star system, but get too diluted beyond that range to do anything of significance.

Do subspace waves, whatever they could be, affect normal space?

For example, a rupture (destruction) of subspace prevents warp travel, which, huh, happens in normal space. That was related to the Omega particles.
This Omega stuff can destroy both matter in normal space, and an area in subspace.
The reverse could be possible.

Memory Alpha says the following about the Omega particle, and what the Borg planned for it:

Knowledge of Omega was not restricted to the Federation. The Borg learned of the substance through the assimilation of thirteen species, and were able to synthesize a single molecule of Omega. That molecule also exploded, destroying 29 Borg vessels with 600,000 drones lost. The Borg, who referred to Omega as Particle 010, regarded Omega with near-reverence as they believed it to exist in a flawless state. Because the Borg saw the Omega Molecule as "perfection", all Borg were ordered to assimilate it at any cost. From their data, the Borg designed a harmonic resonance chamber which could theoretically stabilize the molecule.

If in a way or another, the Borg managed to create a single, or a few devices, containing such particles, they'd have powerful weapons at hand.
However, the evidence of their failures against Species 8472, and later on against ships "simply" armed with quantum torps would show, I suppose, that if the Borg ever possessed such devices, they only had a few.

But that's just ramblings, and could be totally unrelated.




Memory Alpha about Scorpion Pt II:

The drone was obviously, from its body shape, a Human female before assimilation. The two officers introduce themselves. It haughtily responds that they are aware of their designations. Janeway asks the drone for its designation. It responds: "Seven of Nine, Tertiary Adjunct of Unimatrix Zero-One." But, it adds, they may call it "Seven of Nine". It concurs with her proposal of a large-scale weapon. Tuvok suggests installing the nanoprobes in Voyager's photon torpedoes, essentially creating "bimolecular warheads", but the drone responds that their torpedoes are inadequate, lacking the necessary range and force. Janeway ask it if it has a better suggestion. It crisply responds, "We are Borg," and turns away to go to a console. The officers look at each other and follow.

At the console, it brings up a schematic of a device, which it presents as the collective's idea of a more suitable weapon: a multikinetic neutronic mine with a 5 million isoton yield. Tuvok notes that this would affect an entire star system. Janeway strongly objects; this is a WMD; it would put innocent lives at risk. But such considerations are irrelevant to the collective. "It would be efficient," Seven of Nine responds, walking away. The officers press their objection; Tuvok states that it would take weeks to produce enough modified nanoprobes for such a weapon; weeks that the Borg cannot afford to spare. Janeway adds that their enemy currently thinks itself invulnerable; a few smaller weapons would show them otherwise and possibly cause them to give up and withdraw.

Let's try to clear a few things.

I can't find a script, so I'll go with this.

7o9's answer regarding the Borg's superweapon is evasive.
Tuvok says it would affect an entire star system. What does he mean by that? That the entire star system would be affected by the probes? Or suffer from other effects, like for example, warp interdiction?

Did they really talk about a shockwave?




Let's return to our subspace idea, but this time, without trying to fit the omega particles in that.

Subspace particles such as the tretyons can be detected by sensors located in normal space. So there's obviously another form of interaction.

Since these particles are a property of subspace, they become highly energetic and unstable when they are extruded into normal space, which can occur by both natural and artificial means.

With a weapon largely relying on subspace, such particles could be used to cause damage within a star system when introduced into normal space.

Intense tetryon fields, such as those surrounding the Hekaras Corridor, pose a hazard to spacecraft.

Can be dangerous to spacecrafts.

Bombardment with tetryons can render directed-energy weapons inoperative. Jadzia Dax utilized tetryons to disable the weapons of The Albino's troops on Secarus IV in 2371

Can disable Trek's most common means of defense.

In 2370, Odo theorised that a weapon used by Trazko to shoot Quark was tetryon-based, to avoid activating the weapon detection scanners on the Promenade of Deep Space 9. Doctor Bashir noted that this was consistent with Quark's injuries.

Can be used to kill people.

In 2373, Harry Kim detected a tetryon surge from a Nasari ship and interpreted it as a sign they were about to attack, due to a "hunch" caused by his exposure to a Taresian retrovirus. He was later found to be right, as Nasari particle beam weapons are tetryon-based.

Starships can used tetryon based weapons to engage other starships.

Later that year, Voyager traveled through a region of heavy tetryon radiation. Lieutenant Tuvok enhanced the ship's shields to compensate.

Such particles can damage ships and shields.

The atmosphere inside a Borg cube contains tetryon particles.

They literally live in it. And survive it.
Them making a weapon out of such particles wouldn't be far fetched.

The weapons of Qatai's ship are tetryon-based.

Again, spaceships using such particles.

In 2377, the USS Voyager struck a subspace mine. This lead to the ship being flooded with tetryon radiation, and most of the crew suffering radiation poisoning as a result. With the Doctor only able to stabilize the condition of the crew at best until the radiation could be purged, Captain Janeway was forced to order the ship abandoned. Before leaving, Janeway left the Doctor, as the Emergency Command Hologram, in command of the Voyager. The Doctor was eventually able to vent the radiation.

The power of such a weapon against a ship such as the Voyager being demonstrated.

Plus there's more links on the page.

Gloablly, if subspace was an integral part of the device the Borg would use, it would have tremendeous range and bad effects on about everything, from ships to people, from stuning/disabling features to death/destruction.

There's also the subspace flow field, which "emits neutrinos, ionized hydrogen, and theta-band radiation".
Again, these emissions, at high magnitudes, would have an effect on the worlds hit by the wave.

In Human Error, we hear of a long-range subspace warhead. This can once again, disrupt warp (subspace sandbar).

This and all the other subspace oddities.

>>> This whole subspace theorizing only being necessary, from the moment they were talking about physical damage caused to a whole star system, with only a teraton level weapon.
If the Voyager's concers are about other effects, then it's could be unnecessary to find other explanations. <<<



As a whole, the Scorpion quote appears to be the only one that is out of the continuity I attempted.
There are two rationalizations: the planet destruction claim, which I supposed would be done with a couple of hundreds of megatons spread over a certain surface, on a planet where massive ecological destruction and burning fires would finish off the job.
The second rationaliazation being for the Borg device (Janeway says it's a WMD), and its 5e6 isotons, able to affect a whole star system, which I attempted to rationalize with the idea that subspace would spread the damage further, and release highly explosive particles, and send nanoprobes over 5 LY, in a way that could only be relevant and useful if they traveled faster than light, and thus likely in subspace (as you suggested).

Who is like God arbour wrote:

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Of course, we know from Sagan's work, and contemporary confirmations by scientists, that to destroy a planet, you may not need more than 100 megatons, as long as you spread the damage strategically and thoroughly.

According to this article 100 MT aren't enough to destroy a planet but to cause "only" a Nuclear winter.

According to this definition, a strong nuclear winter would be enough to consider a planet destroyed.
Remember that 54 isotons, with my initial factor (which was more a test than anything definitive) would be equal to 415.38 MT.

If 6.5 isotons = 100 MT, you'd be looking at 830.77 MT. If properly spread over a sufficiently forested surface, this would lead to a significant level of destruction, resulting with fires over such an area that Sagan's NW figure would be put to shame. With significant poisoning, many plants dying, crops being unexploitable (though there are synthetizers in Trek, it would have a lesser impact) and the deaths of many if people were down there, the scale of destruction could be easily massive enough for one to consider this planet destroyed for quite some time.

That's not saying it would be impossible to recover it, with some terraforming and biosphere cleansing.

That said, if you don't agree, I have no other idea to forward in order to clarify the isoton issue.

GStone wrote:You know, I had an idea from watching Scorpion a couple days ago. A supernova destroys a star system. The borg's multikinetic neutronic mine can destroy a star system and that is 5 millions isotons. So, we can do the math. The problem is the varying strengths of the types of supernovas for an isoton range. I'd do the math myself to get the ranges for an equivilent range for a single isoton, but I'm having trouble finding figures for the different supernova types.

1e44-1e46 J, depending on type. Frankly, a supernova is the overkill case for destroying a star system, and I have trouble buying that photon torpedos should be individually able to Death Star planets in a single shot.

I'm always fond of positing that the isoton as a standard yardstick is based on the yield from fusing one ton of hydrogen. Although, now that someone mentions it, a non-linear scale would be gravy - that would help explain why low isoton yields and high isoton yields are so far apart in their actual effect.

You can find scripts of some eisodes here: Star Trek Minuitae.

But I have here already given the relevant quotes of the concerning episodes:

Who is like God arbour wrote:

• The episode Booby Trap begins with a conversation between Data and Wesley Crusher about the end of Orelious Nine.
  
  • • [quote="In the script of "Booby Trap" it was"]WESLEY and DATA standing at the window looking out the windows at a field of immense flotsam and jetsam moving by, the remains of a planet destroyed in a battle long ago...
      • • WESLEY
        This was the final battle, wasn't it?
        
        
        • DATA
        (acknowledges)
        Neither side intended Orelious Nine to be the decisive conflict.
        
        
        • WESLEY
        Not much of it left, is there...
        
        
        • DATA
        The destruction is remarkable considering the primitive weapons of the period.

Even primitive weapons - from the perspective of Starfleet - were able to destroy a whole planet.

[*]In the Voyager episode Scorpion it was stated that it is possible to modify a Mark VI photon torpedo to carry a warhead with a maximum yield of 200 isotons - whatever 200 isotons are.

[*]In the same episode it was stated, that a multikinetic neutronic mine with a five million isoton yield would cause an explosion which could affect an entire star system. The shock wave of such weapon would dispurse nanoprobes over a radius of five light years.

• • [quote="In the script of "Scorpion, Part Two" was"]
    • • SEVEN OF NINE
      Seven of Nine, Tertiary Adjunct of Unimatrix Zero One. But you may call me... Seven of Nine.
      (to business)
      You are proposing a large-scale weapon. We concur.
      
      
      • JANEWAY
      I thought you might.
      
      
      • TUVOK
      (an idea)
      We could encase the nanoprobes in some of our photon torpedoes... in essence, turn them into bio molecular warheads.
      
      
      • SEVEN OF NINE
      Your torpedoes are inadequate. They lack the necessary range and dispursive force.
      
      
      • JANEWAY
      Do you have a better idea?
      
      • SEVEN OF NINE
      (obviously)
      We are Borg.
      
      
      Seven of Nine moves to a nearby console.
      
      
      • TUVOK
      (to Janeway)
      I take that as a "yes."
      
      
      Janeway and Tuvok join Seven of Nine at the console, which is crammed with exotic controls and a large MONITOR. Seven of Nine quickly works the controls... and the monitor shows a GRAPHIC of a BORG WEAPON with a variety of complex technical data.
      
      
      • SEVEN OF NINE
      (re: graphic)
      A multikinetic neutronic mine. Five million isoton yield.
      
      
      • TUVOK
      (reacts)
      An explosion that size could affect an entire star system.
      
      
      • SEVEN OF NINE
      Correct. The shock wave will dispurse the nanoprobes over a radius of five light years.
      
      
      • JANEWAY
      That's somewhat larger than I had in mind. You're proposing a weapon of mass destruction...
      
      
      • SEVEN OF NINE
      We are.
      
      
      • JANEWAY
      Well, I'm not. You'd be endangering innocent worlds.
      
      
      • SEVEN OF NINE
      It would be... efficient.
      
      
      Janeway sees a difference in philosophy here... realizes she has to convince them on their own terms. Tuvok, who has been studying the graphic of the Borg weapon, turns to Seven of Nine with an argument of his own.
      
      • TUVOK
      (re: graphic)
      We'd need approximately fifty trillion nanoprobes to arm this mine. It would take several weeks for the Doctor to replicate that amount.
      (pointed)
      You are losing this conflict... are you willing to risk further delay?
      
      
      • JANEWAY
      (urging)
      Right now, your enemy believes it is invulnerable. If we create smaller weapons using our torpedoes... and destroy a few of their bio-ships, it may be enough to deter them... convince them to give up this war.
      
      
      Seven of Nine considers... takes a couple of steps around the room then turns to them, having made a decision with the Hive Mind.
      
      
      • SEVEN OF NINE
      You are individuals. You are small, and you think in small terms.
      ("listening" to the hive)
      But the present situation requires that we consider your plan.
      
      
      Janeway and Tuvok exchange a look-a small triumph. Seven of Nine moves to the console, taps a few controls. The monitor changes to show a VOYAGER WEAPONS INVENTORY-schematics and detailed technical data.
      
      
      • SEVEN OF NINE
      (off monitor)
      Voyager's weapons inventory. Photon torpedo compliment: thirty-two. Class Six warhead. Explosive yield: two hundred isotons.
      
      
      • TUVOK
      (surprised)
      How did you obtain this information?
      
      
      • SEVEN OF NINE
      (simply)
      We are Borg.
      
      
      • TUVOK
      Naturally.
    [/quote]

I think that's demonstrative enough to get a feeling what an isoton can do. And furthermore this episode confirms again that Starfleet doesn't build weapons of mass destuction.


[*]And in the episode The Omega Directive Harry Kim implies that a 54 isoton explosion would be enough to blow up a small planet.

• • [quote="In the script of "The Omega Directive" it was"]
    • Kim gives him an instrument, and Tuvok uses it on the internal circuitry of the torpedo.
      
      
      • TUVOK
      Detonator circuits?
      
      
      Kim checks a console reading.
      
      
      • KIM
      On standby.
      
      
      • TUVOK
      We're ready to load the gravimetric charge.
      
      
      Kim very carefully hands Tuvok a narrow CYLINDER - the actual CHARGE.
      
      
      • KIM
      This looks like enough for a fifty isoton explosion.
      
      
      Tuvok places the cylinder into the torpedo casing.
      
      
      • TUVOK
      Fifty-four, to be exact.
      
      
      • KIM
      What are we planning to do, blow up a small planet?
      
      
      • TUVOK
      I don't know.
      
      
      • KIM
      This warhead isn't standard issue... who designed it, the Captain?
    [/quote]

This episode confirms again very high weapons power is possible but not standard.[/list][/quote]

As you can see, Kim says "blow up a small planet" and not destroying by creating a nuclear winter. 100 MT or 415 MT aren't enough to blow up a planet.

Thus, 54 isotons have to be far more than 415 MT.

It has to be enought to blow up a small planet.



And you are right that we don't exactly know how the multikinetic neutronic mine affect the entire star system.

But the fact that Janeway considered it as a weapon of mass destruction with which innocent worlds could be endangered, shows that its effects are not inconsiderable to these world. It is correct that it is not said, how - but my impression was that the explosion force would be the danger.
If it would have been merely a subspace related weapon, the explosive force wouldn't be that relevant because dedicated subspace weapons wouldn't need so much initial-energy - as New Ground or The Omega Directive or the from the Son'a in Star Trek: Insurrection used Subspace weapon have shown.

Jedi Master Spock wrote:

GStone wrote:You know, I had an idea from watching Scorpion a couple days ago. A supernova destroys a star system. The borg's multikinetic neutronic mine can destroy a star system and that is 5 millions isotons. So, we can do the math. The problem is the varying strengths of the types of supernovas for an isoton range. I'd do the math myself to get the ranges for an equivilent range for a single isoton, but I'm having trouble finding figures for the different supernova types.

1e44-1e46 J, depending on type. Frankly, a supernova is the overkill case for destroying a star system, and I have trouble buying that photon torpedos should be individually able to Death Star planets in a single shot.

I'm always fond of positing that the isoton as a standard yardstick is based on the yield from fusing one ton of hydrogen. Although, now that someone mentions it, a non-linear scale would be gravy - that would help explain why low isoton yields and high isoton yields are so far apart in their actual effect.

The quesion would be, if 1e44-1e46 J divided by 25'000 is enough to destroy a planet.

Because only the 5'000'000 isotons are enough to effect an entire star system - although it is not said that it would destroy a star system just as thoroughly as a nova.

But a photon torpedo can be modiefied to have maximum explosive yield of 200 isotons - according to Scorpion. That's only a 5'000'000 divided by 25'000.

But the standard photon torpedo has only maximum explosive yield of 25 isotons - according to the isoton side from Memory Alpha, wherever they have this information. That's only 5'000'000 divided by 200'000.

According to to the isoton side from Memory Alpha, which refer to the Star Trek: Deep Space Nine Technical Manual, quantum torpedoes have a yield of 50+ isotons. And that would be nearly enough to blow up a small planet. How much energy would be needed to blow up a small planet, which has less mass and less gravity than a normal planet?

If you want a comprehensive list of what it would take to blow up a particular planet (or the Sun itself), check out this list here:

http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/20 ... .As.r.html

About 5.68E+34 ergs. One erg = 1.0 x 10-7 joules (10,000,000 ergs to one joule). So about 5.68e25 joules, or approximately 1,352 teratons of explosive energy.
-Mike

WILGA wrote:The quesion would be, if 1e44-1e46 J divided by 25'000 is enough to destroy a planet.

Mike DiCenso wrote:If you want a comprehensive list of what it would take to blow up a particular planet (or the Sun itself), check out this list here:

http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/20 ... .As.r.html

About 5.68E+34 ergs. One erg = 1.0 x 10-7 joules (10,000,000 ergs to one joule). So about 5.68e25 joules, or approximately 1,352 teratons of explosive energy.
-Mike

For those of you not following the math, 1e44-1e46 divided by 25,000 is, in fact, 4e39-41, easily enough to violently explode the largest planets.

Just to make sure people understand, I was responding in direct context to WILGA's question about how much energy it would take to blow up a Pluto-sized planetary body.
-Mike

Regarding Booby Trap, I have already adressed this point in the TDIC thread. I don't see any evolution on the claim from the other side, so I won't adress it here any more than I already have.
To me, it still is a flawed claim.

As previously pointed out, one can increase the isoton yield of a torpedo without including more explosive reactants, notably antimatter.
This alone lets the Voyager crew boost a torpedo from what I've read could have been a 6.5 or 25 IT torp, to yields of 54 isotons, and even greater, since Janeway wanted a 80 isotons yield.




In Living Witness (VOY):

"One of the Voyager's torpedoes. Twenty five isoton yield. It could destroy an entire city within seconds."

Then, a 54 isotons warhead could apparently blow up a planet (Omega Directive).

Pretty hefty increase in firepower, just by multiplying the isoton yield by two. It's what? At the very least, e32 joules of energy, but possibly more considering the apocalypse flavoured comments from Kim?
Even if it's non-linear (which is an old theory), the scale is downright absurdly moronic.

And of course... Voyager carries a complement of thirty two Class-VI 200 isotons warheads. (Scorpion Part II).

...

Sorry, not even a single non-linear scaling could make sense. If such claims were true, then those 32 Class-VI warheads would be able to destroy... more than a star system, right?
The absurdly hyper increasing scale would suggest yields which would be equal to... I just can't even start figuring out how much that would be... probably at levels where a significant fraction of a quadrant would be erased from the maps!

What's funny is that Janeway wants to avoid using weapons which could damage an entire star system, by returning to smaller weapons.
Weapons... which would end having a raw firepower many folds higher than that of this very Borg weapon (10^6 isotons).

Seriously, Kim's comment from Omega Directive is the oddball, and what really creates an issue.

Ah yes, I can see why some of you guys can really hate Voyager. If this is an example of the series' consistensy... I understand the idea that it's only enjoyable when you look for neat graphics, interesting stories and don't give a fucking flying rabit about the tech mintue detail.

And you are right that we don't exactly know how the multikinetic neutronic mine affect the entire star system.

But the fact that Janeway considered it as a weapon of mass destruction with which innocent worlds could be endangered, shows that its effects are not inconsiderable to these world. It is correct that it is not said, how - but my impression was that the explosion force would be the danger.
If it would have been merely a subspace related weapon, the explosive force wouldn't be that relevant because dedicated subspace weapons wouldn't need so much initial-energy - as New Ground or The Omega Directive or the from the Son'a in Star Trek: Insurrection used Subspace weapon have shown.

Well, okay, but citing episodes without precisely showing what happens in them, nor at least explaining what's at play in details, is not going to help claims about 50 isotons = super duper big, and show that the scale is consistent.

What I would do, right now, is pass Kim's comment as absolute gibberish, hyperbole of a new nature, and certainly not meant to be even remotely scientifically accurate, not even by a dozen orders of magnitude.

At least that would leave the isoton scale as such:

• 6.5 IT. Apparently the standard yield of a low yield tactical warhead, at the beginning of Voyager. Doesn't preclude the existence of heavier torps. Those low yield torps would be used for surgical strikes, localized destruction, and to avoid endangering the starship with its own firepower at close ranges.
• 25 IT: The yield of a photon torpedo which can destroy an entire city within seconds.
• 54 IT: Obtained by using at least on gravimetric warhead, placed in the slot meant for a M/AM warhead. Its size is rather equal to a typical M/AM warhead. It should be less efficient than a M/AM reaction. It appears to have a mass which is inferior to 3 kg, or even less, by looking at how one handles it with ease. They're lifting this warhead it like it wa a light weight plastic toy - which it is :) - and there's just no way this could even weight more than 3 kg.
  It should sit within the Q1 megaton range. With an M/AM warhead of 3 kg, that would be 128.88 Megatons, so we're looking at less than that.
  This is enough to destroy one omega particle.
  If we're talking about using fire against fire, as opposing yields of roughly equal value, then it should be interesting to see the level of destruction caused by one particle on the initial UFP research station 1, 2).
  An extent of damage which would, at first glance, fit with the idea that "a single Omega molecule contains as much energy as a warp core".
• 80 IT. Enough to destroy about 100 omega particles. How they would reach that yield while still using one single torpedo, I don't know. Maybe cram a secondary gravimetric warhead on the other side of the torp, or remove pointless stuff in the torp. Initially, a (Borg) mine would have been enough, so I guess shielding, engines and navicomputers are pointless.
  A detonation of a number of these 100 molecules ravaged a portion of the surface of a moon, with "energy" emanating from the ruins of a grounded reeach station.
• 200 IT. The yield of a Class-VI photon torpedo. Probably in the second or third quarter of the megaton range.
• 5e6 IT: Borg weapon, the multikinetic neutronic mine. Suggested to use subspace to amplify power and, above all, range. But the theory would be that for a reason, the subspace wave would collapse at a distance of roughly 5 lightyears, and the nanoprobes would then return to normal space (timed & triggered subspace anomaly?). From there, their velocity in realspace would be relevant to measures in lightyears anymore.

Besides, thanks for the link to STM. ;)

Mr. Oragahn wrote:In Living Witness (VOY):

"One of the Voyager's torpedoes. Twenty five isoton yield. It could destroy an entire city within seconds."

Then, a 54 isotons warhead could apparently blow up a planet (Omega Directive).

Pretty hefty increase in firepower, just by multiplying the isoton yield by two. It's what? At the very least, e32 joules of energy, but possibly more considering the apocalypse flavoured comments from Kim?
Even if it's non-linear (which is an old theory), the scale is downright absurdly moronic.

And of course... Voyager carries a complement of thirty two Class-VI 200 isotons warheads. (Scorpion Part II).

Well, I think it's important to remember than in OD, they were using a gravimetric warhead. There might be different scalings for each warhead type. 54 isotons for a gravimetric warhead might destroy a planet, but a 54 MAM warhead wouldn't. Othere types, like suspace weapons (presumably some kind of 'subspace warhead') would have another scaling range.

My original idea of using 5^6 and supernovas gave me results I wasn't expecting. That borg mine might have a 'neutronic warhead', which would put 5^6 isotons close to, if not within, the range of supernova levels, but that would be for that specific warhead. Tricobalt devices are fired, like torps, but they are measured in cochranes, which is a measurement for subspace/warp fields, which makes sense, since they have been used to create subspace ruptures before.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:

In Living Witness (VOY):

"One of the Voyager's torpedoes. Twenty five isoton yield. It could destroy an entire city within seconds."

You have to take that with a serious grain of grain of salt or two given the number of serious mistakes made by the Vaskans and Kyrians about many details of Voyager's crew, technology and mission. We simply do not know if that's correct or not. Most likely incorrect, though it would potentially place a photon torpedo in at least the kiloton to low megaton yeild range.
-Mike