The Die is Cast Strikes Back

[Who is like God arbour]

Two major elements need to be adressed.

First, the firepower consistency, which is quite a very tough point as far as Trek goes. I've read enough on boards to see that it's just a huge mess. The isoton stuff is probably the best symptom.
Secondly, the attack on the Founders' homeworld itself, by looking at the visuals, and by considering the dialogue as well.

But just before doing so, I'd like to remind you that I'm not limiting myself to the evaluation of just one theory. I'm looking at everything I know that has been said about this episode. There's likely a lot of stuff taht I'll miss, but this thread is about TDIC in general, and any hypothesis proposed thus far.
So don't be surprised if it looks like I'm not always adressing your arguments.

Good to know.
It was disturbing the last time to read answeres to not asked questions.

But I have not much time. So this will be a short answer.
More maybe later. But nevertheless, you can reply yet.

Part I. Firepower discrepancy

Your problem is that you assume firepowers in all the other episodes in the megaton range.

I'm relativly new in the debate and don't know many other threads with calculations about the firepower of Star Trek ships. I'm sorry, but you have to show me such threads with calculations or start with me again at the beginning.

My problem is that there are few events in Star Trek which let one calculate firepowers because it is only calculable if a ship fires on an unshielded, not armoured target. That doesn't happen often.

And the few instances in which it happens are showing firepowers far higher than in the megaton range as the episodes, I have brought to mind, are showing.

Insofar I object your starting position that rates weapons in the megaton range.

We have episodes that shows clearly that the weapons have far higher firepower than you presume. I don't know episodes which are contradicting these.

Please name such episodes and explain how you calculate in these episodes the upper limit of firepower.

Part II. The bombardment effects

1. I have wrote in my very first post to this thread:
   • I considered it even for possible, that the photon torpedos weren't supposed to explode at once, but that they were - for the time being - only placed in the mantle and that all torpedos should explode later in a certain sequence or all at once for a greater effect.
   We have seen only effects from the phasers/disruptors and no effects from the torpedos. That could mean that they aren't exploded because it was planned that they explode all at once to create a huge explosion around the core which would hurl the shattered mantle and crust from the core into space.
   
   That the torpedos are able to penetrate the crust allone was shown in PEN PALS. The phaser wouldn't be necessary to drill holes for the torpedos.
2. These were used to attack the crust or mantle at once. I propose that they have been fired at the planet, have first drilled holes in the crust and a bit in the mantle and that they have there discharged their destructive energy and caused huge explosions which would shatter crust and mantle.
   That's what I have wrote already in the very first post of this thread:
   • What, if the phasers/disruptors weren't adjusted to cause maximum damage at the surface, but to discharge most of their destructive energy deep in the mantle or crust of the planet. What we have seen on the surface of the planet from orbit would have been merely side effects.
3. If the explosions are deep enough under the surface, so that they barely reach it and only shock waves are propagating through crust and mantle, there wouldn't be ejections. Shock waves allone carries only energy and no matter. The shock wave would raise and drop the matter along the amplitude and break it hereby but it would not transport matter along the direction of propagation.
4. Maybe one could understand the quote that it would need an hour until the crust, which was not directly attacked but only suffers from the side effects of the phasers/disruptors, which were drilling holes through it to directly attack the mantle, was vanished. But it was already to 30 % shattered after the first volley.
5. The fleet was not prepared for a battle. It is possible that they have squeezed every bit energy in their for this specific attack optimized weapon systems and have neglected the shields. After all, they had have their cloacking devices.
6. The Defiant has fired at shielded Jem Hadar fighters. You don't know how much power her phasers had because you don't know how strong the shields were.
7. VFX errors are possible. If the showing of the surface wasn't totally correct - what you have to show yet - it could be ignored because we undoubtly know what was intended.

Appendix: The status of the Founders' homeworld

You seems to not know that you speak of the second homeworld.
Maybe you should follow the link, I have already provided about the Founders' homeworld at Memory Alpha. There is a First Founders' homeworld, which was attacked and a Second Founders' homeworld, on which Sisko was in Broken Link.
You are showing again that you try to debate something from which you knows not enough.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Part I. Firepower discrepancy

Your problem is that you assume firepowers in all the other episodes in the megaton range.

My problem is that I don't see how two rather significant factions in the Trek universe, the Romulans and Cardassians, can pretend have easy access to technologies which let them fire weapons in the teraton range, be they torpedoes or beams, and just not rule the universe.

The quantum torpedoes, those famous and so called hard to quantify weapons (isotons and all that), were shown to be actually rare within the UFP, since if I'm not wrong, only the Defiant style ships, which aren't numerous (there were what, two or three of them, in total) and the Sovereign class had some of them, and not many per ship, again, while they largely rely on more traditional pulse guns, phasers and photon torpedoes, which have never been reasonably rated beyond the megaton range. In fact, for all the yields and settings I've seen calculater in the last months, it often ranges between 20 and 150 megatons. Maybe once I saw a 200 MT estimation.

I'm talking about common sense. Just how factions with weapons which are betwen 3 and 6 orders of magnitude higher, and thus likely have defenses just as though, just don't turn out to be the absolute rulers, able to steamroll over any other faction or alliance, especially if they can supposedly build a fleet dedicated to planet busting missions in no time?

I'm asking for consistency, and all I see is Trekkies clutched to that one rare episode of a kind, really, in the faint hope of one day making it pretty much accepted everywhere, probably jaleous in a way of how certain Warsies dishonestly managed to force stupid numbers.

The question is, do you want to become as despisable as the likes of SD.net, as long as you'll be able to swim in an ocean of wank anytime you want?

More. Memmory Alpha's page on The Die is Cast reveals that at the end of the battle of the Omarion Nebula, the Dominion does consider that the only remaining threats are the Klingons and the UFP.
Two sides which, as far as I've read, have hardly been painted as the most powerful factions in the galaxy, well, especially the Klingons. It would seem to be an odd thought to have, considering the attempted demonstration Cardassians and Romulans tried to make.

Another funny point, apparently, is how in the first battle of Chin'toka, the asteroid proected by its own shield, and housing the cardassian generator for the whole network of defense platform, was too strong for UFP, Romulan and Klingon weapons... and was almost entirely vaporized when the generator exploded.
This puts a cap on how much energy it could provide, under normal conditions, for the phasers and shields of the battle platforms.

I'm relativly new in the debate and don't know many other threads with calculations about the firepower of Star Trek ships. I'm sorry, but you have to show me such threads with calculations or start with me again at the beginning.

I started the same way as you did, and I'm relatively very new to Trek as well. A good start is probably to type a fey key words in google, with eventually refining your search by forcing certain sites (go in advanced search options).
You can try metaengines (Copernic, I used it a lot a couple of years ago, it's very good to store results), or directly search on the sites in question.
I did that a lot on Spacebattles, though there's no denying that this place is largely infested with Wars wankers, and had strong affinities with SD.net from time to time.
That said, there still were Trekkies which were making very good points.
I've also read the explanation and numbers at Robert's site. Despite his somehow obsessive nature, and contrary to the claims of Wong and his pets, he does have many good points, and well documented pages.

Also, check out this thread. You'll see yields quite lower than those provided by SFJ and RSA.

My problem is that there are few events in Star Trek which let one calculate firepowers because it is only calculable if a ship fires on an unshielded, not armoured target. That doesn't happen often.

And the few instances in which it happens are showing firepowers far higher than in the megaton range as the episodes, I have brought to mind, are showing.

Which cases, precisely?
An error you did was to claim that Inheritance and Legacy proved that phasers vaporized x quantities of crust material per second.
Trouble is that whatever it does, it is not vaporization at all, or very little.
It's the NDF system. It disintegrates matter, and there's just no proof that you need as much power to do so than you'd need to precisely vaporize an equal amount of matter.

From Inheritance, we do know that somehow, the process generates heat.
We also see that the drilling process is so... weird, that there's a "feedback pulse along the particle beam", possibly due to some magnesite ore. Huh, so some raw and rather fairly natural ore can trigger a chain reaction that will go up along the beam, faster than particles go down, and even shake the ship for several seconds, up to the point where Riker considering it necessary to cut off the beam (and with all the dramatic music behind).
If anything, this alone should prove the particularily extravagant nature of the weapon in question.

On an average, and this is important to realize, all calcs I've seen which were tangible did lie in the first fifth part of the megaton range. Sometimes low, sometimes high.

Insofar I object your starting position that rates weapons in the megaton range.

Okay, but with what do you intend to defend your position, precisely, especially if you admit not knowing enough about this?

We have episodes that shows clearly that the weapons have far higher firepower than you presume. I don't know episodes which are contradicting these.

Please name such episodes and explain how you calculate in these episodes the upper limit of firepower.

Robert has done a couple of calcs regarding asteroid blasting for example.

I saw Legacy. It took roughly seven seconds to drill the equivalent of 300 m, from 1.3 km to 1.6 km. That's 42.85 meters per second. Likely at a rate lower than in Inheritance, to avoid torching the surrounding place in the underground city maze.
The phasers themselves needed to be modified, and this required a two hours job IIRC.
The hole itself, by judging of the size of what appears to a sort of street, and by the stories of the buildings in ruins, wouldn't be more than 10 meters wide.

As for Inheritance, there's something that strikes my curiosity.
See, JMS says that 10 kilometers of rock would be drilled within 19 seconds.
That makes an average value of 526.31 m/s.

Yet, it takes, from dialogue, 5 seconds to go through 2,000 meters of matter. That's 400 meters per second.

They better to, cause in one of the scripts I've found, and I don't know if there's a special longer DVD version of the episode, that lower rate was supposed to happen after an increase of firepower by 12%.

Later on, after the pretty much weird magnesite affair, it takes 6-7 seconds to get across 2 km of matter.

- Vs Spacebattles related -
Please notice that the magnesite ore slowed down the process considerably, at it took them 32 seconds to get over 2 km of matter. 62.5 m/s. So what, a tightly focused beam considerably looses efficiency as it passes through natural ore?
Somehow, I wouldn't be surprised if phasers would suck terribly against good ol' armour. Wit hsome chance, you might even damage a Trek ship with some shizmit reverse pulse or whatelse.

Yes, I understand why sometimes, people complain about how the technobabbly puts them off.
Ok, just having cheap shots. :)

What we have to remember is such feats are only applicable once phasers are recalibrated. The phaser beam, from the outside, don't look particularily different from all the other shots we get during battles, yet the beams in those two examples are modified, and likely for the same reasons. Inheritance coming after Legacy, it is likely that Geordie replicated his previous method, used in Legacy, to "tighten" the beam.
Beams under normal conditions would likely not be as effective, especially in terms of intensity.



---

Ah, yes. Besides, since they were manually beating the process, they possibly ended the firing a second too late. When you consider that they never automated this process, and had characters say ok, we're at X meters down, stop firing. - Aye sir! *presses som'thing on the console 1.846 seconds later, it's likely, logically speaking, that they would have drilled beyond the strictly necessary lenght.

The dialogue reports, in the light of these procedures, and regarding the first drilling, that the process raised the first pocket's magma's temperature by almost 300 degrees C, and that it will takes hours for the magma to cool down.

I won't even comment on what the pcokets look like when they're inside, it just doesn't look like solidified magma. It's just dirt, and you wonder where the hell all the heat went.
And why the hell they actually targeted magma pockets... when they waited for it to cool down, while the rest of the mantle was specifically solid cool.
Yet, for the sake of simplicity, we'll pretend that the magma they wanted to boost with infused plasma was lying under their feet, under the soil of those caverns.

Ah, we'll also ignore the shots from Data looking up the latest created shaft... which looks nothing like a multikilometer long hole! ;)

...

Ultimately, you know I'm going to ask you for proof of the much superior yields for standard weaponry as well, and from the most future orientated shows (TNG, DS9, eventually early seasons of VOY).

This had me visit Robert's power generation page.

What is most interesting is the quotes from late Voyager, with power generation figures going up to 5 petawatts.
That's two orders of magnitude below JMS's figure for the Inheritance event.
For TNG, Robert argues for a power generation of 147 terawatts (1.5 grams/second). - huh, this is wrong, btw. You get more energy than that for that amount of AM.

This would show that JMSpock' phaser firepower figures are many many orders of magnitude above what the TNG's Enterprise could reasonably provide.




Part II. The bombardment effects

I have wrote in my very first post to this thread:

• I considered it even for possible, that the photon torpedos weren't supposed to explode at once, but that they were - for the time being - only placed in the mantle and that all torpedos should explode later in a certain sequence or all at once for a greater effect.

We have seen only effects from the phasers/disruptors and no effects from the torpedos. That could mean that they aren't exploded because it was planned that they explode all at once to create a huge explosion around the core which would hurl the shattered mantle and crust from the core into space.

Which would not correspond to the computer's estimation and plan. "All at once" is not 6 hours, and all at once means yields which are simply absurdingly too high.

That the torpedos are able to penetrate the crust allone was shown in PEN PALS. The phaser wouldn't be necessary to drill holes for the torpedos.

Interestingly, it seems that planets can explode on their own because they become unstable, since "unusually high levels of dilithium in the crust" form "a matrix which creates a piezoelectric effect that is tearing the planets apart".
Just how much of dilithium, exactly?

These were used to attack the crust or mantle at once. I propose that they have been fired at the planet, have first drilled holes in the crust and a bit in the mantle and that they have there discharged their destructive energy and caused huge explosions which would shatter crust and mantle.
That's what I have wrote already in the very first post of this thread:

• What, if the phasers/disruptors weren't adjusted to cause maximum damage at the surface, but to discharge most of their destructive energy deep in the mantle or crust of the planet. What we have seen on the surface of the planet from orbit would have been merely side effects.

Holes = cheminey = exhaust port. If anything powerful detonates down the shaft, the huge pressure and expansion of hot gas will go up. Simple physics.

If the explosions are deep enough under the surface, so that they barely reach it and only shock waves are propagating through crust and mantle, there wouldn't be ejections. Shock waves allone carries only energy and no matter. The shock wave would raise and drop the matter along the amplitude and break it hereby but it would not transport matter along the direction of propagation.

If there are underground explosions, the explosives went down there by drilling holes.
Holes = cheminey = exhaust port.

Maybe one could understand the quote that it would need an hour until the crust, which was not directly attacked but only suffers from the side effects of the phasers/disruptors, which were drilling holes through it to directly attack the mantle, was vanished. But it was already to 30 % shattered after the first volley.

Exactly, which highlights the lack of consistency between dialogue and visuals, as I've been saying all along.
Besides, if the destruction of the crust was an expected side effect of the destruction of the mantle, I would not actually see how it matters how long it will take to destroy the crust, as the destruction of the mantle will obliterate the crust anyway.

There's also the point about what happens on screen hardly represent 30% of the crust.

The fleet was not prepared for a battle. It is possible that they have squeezed every bit energy in their for this specific attack optimized weapon systems and have neglected the shields. After all, they had have their cloacking devices.

Possible.
However, it is absurd that with reactors able to generate enough energy to cause teraton level shockwaves, shortly after dropping cloaks, that they can't immediately regenerate all systems, especially since the bombardment was planned to continue until the mantle would be destroyed.

The Defiant has fired at shielded Jem Hadar fighters. You don't know how much power her phasers had because you don't know how strong the shields were.

Unless you prove that the Defiant has pulse weapons which range in the gigaton range, my point still remains.

VFX errors are possible. If the showing of the surface wasn't totally correct - what you have to show yet - it could be ignored because we undoubtly know what was intended.

As I have to show yet?

You deliberately evaded the question about the very way the ripples progress, and how they stagnate at a certain distance, but still wiggle more or less, and how new ripples are even created without further bombardment.
Care to explain this, especially in the context of a much solid mantle?

Yes, as you see, you are also expected to prove how your theory explains most peculiar visual phenomenoms.






Appendix: The status of the Founders' homeworld

You seems to not know that you speak of the second homeworld.
Maybe you should follow the link, I have already provided about the Founders' homeworld at Memory Alpha. There is a First Founders' homeworld, which was attacked and a Second Founders' homeworld, on which Sisko was in Broken Link.
You are showing again that you try to debate something from which you knows not enough.

Ok, there's another homeworld after the assault. Still, the pictures of the first one show a very bright source of light. The lit crescent shows that the surface can be sufficienly lit, and in fact, just as much as the one of the second homeworld.

I have nothing more to add to this, unless it should, in any way, have direct consequences on the events of TDIC.

[Socar]

The quantum torpedoes, those famous and so called hard to quantify weapons (isotons and all that), were shown to be actually rare within the UFP, since if I'm not wrong, only the Defiant style ships, which aren't numerous (there were what, two or three of them, in total) and the Sovereign class had some of them

In Paradise Lost, the Excelsior-class starship Lakota was stated to be armed with quantum torpedoes, which could be indicative that Starfleet had begun to arm more of their starships with them, but at the same time, it might just be that Admiral Leyton specifically wanted that starship to have them since they were part of his scheme. However, in Little Green Men, Quark mentions that he could sell quantum torpedoes, but at a heftier price than photon torpedoes.

and not many per ship

In What We Leave Behind Part 1, after the first part of the battle (while they are on route to Cardassia Prime), Worf mentions that the Defiant is "down to only forty-five quantum torpedoes."

As for the whole overall firepower discrepancy, perhaps, if we look at this from an NDF theory perspective, those particular ships' weapons had been set so that they would be highly effective against something like, say, a planet, but very ineffective against shields, which is why they normally aren't set that way.

Don't get me wrong, I personally think no matter how you try and rationalize it, TDiC is a clear exception to normal standards, and avoid using them it in debates. I do, however, prefer to try and find ways to fit these kinds of things into continuity, which could at least in theory make sense. I just don't like excluding them altogether.

[Who is like God arbour]

OK, I have galloped through the from you provided thread "Intersteller Alliance vs Borg".

But there is the same problem.

What firepower have the weapons in the beginning?

This vivftp bloke presumes in his post a firepower of 20 megatons for a photon torpedo at the start of Voyager.

But he does neither explain, how he comes to this 20 megatons nor does he link to a side where it is explained.

I can't check his stated figures.

For example, I would want to know, from which event he has derivated it.

How can I know that his calculation is correct (though I wouldn't really be able to check it) and how can I know that in the used event the upper limit of firepower was shown and that he hasn't misinterpreted the used event?

This 20 megatons are his presumption and from this he derivates all further figures.

But if his presumption is wrong all further figures are wrong too.

For example, in both, Inheritance and Legacy we know that not the maximum fire power was shown.

• In Inheritance they had to watch that they don't create to much seismic stress with the drilling. Their scans have indicated that the magma pockets where they have planned to set up the infusion units are somewhat unstable. That's why Julianna was going to monitor the density of the rock layers and adjust the strength of the particle beam as they have gone. Data has said, that his calculations have indicated that the first phaser blast will be approximately nineteen seconds in duration. In this time, they should have drilled to the magma pockets. Once the phaser beam was through the crust, they have boost its intensity by twelve percent till they were short before the magma pocket. Than - nearing the somewhat unstable magma pocket - they must have reduced the strength of the beam again because, after they have drilled through all the way to the magma pockets minus the remaining two kilometers in circa 14 seconds, they have needed for the last two kilometers suddenly five seconds. apparently Julianna, who has adjust the strength of the particle beam as they have gone, has reduced the strenght as they have got near to the magma pocket to prevent seismic stress. One could assume that this was pre-decided and already considered by Data in his calculations. But that would mean that they have needed only 14 seconds for the nearly 2'800 kilometers.
• In Legacy they didn't wanted to alert the Alliance of their doing. The drilling had have to be very unnoticeable.

In both events they had quasi to made a scalpel out of their battle axe - proverbial. Nevertheless - especially in Inheritance - they have shown great firepower. The question is how much firepower they would have if they wouldn't have reduced the battle axe to a scalpel.

The same goes for the Voyager episode Rise.

• They have expected that one torpedo with the used setting would be enough to shatter the asteroid enough. Why should they have used a higher setting if that would have been enough?

One can't conclude from this epeisode that the shown firepower is the upper limit.

That's why I still demand that episodes are named from which the upper firepower is derivable.

And if you name such an epsiode, I would demand an explanation why this episode should be enough to exlude Inheritance, Scorpion - with the stated maximum yield of 200 isotons for Mark VI photon torpedos, while a five million isoton yield would cause an explosion which could affect an entire star system and its shock wave would dispurse nanoprobes over a radius of five light years and a 54 isoton explosion would be enough to blow up a small planet - or last but not least: The Die is Cast.

You can't claim that the fire power shown in The Die is Cast is incosistent to other figures derivated from other episodes, if you don't show these episodes and how you derivate from them an upper limit of fire power.

And nobody says that only the Romulans and Cardassians have such firepower. The Klingons and Federations and all other powers in the Milky Way Galaxy would have powers in the same order of magnitude - if they aren't shown to be far weaker as for example the guys from Altec or Straleb.

• But even they are able to interstellar voyages and therefore are technological far more advanced than we are at the moment. One would have to assume, that they also have weapons far more advanced than our weapons from today. Weapons, only in the megatons yield are unplausible to assume. That's what we have already today. And the far superior Federation would have a priory far stronger weapons.

I think there is no reason to continue this debate as long as you don't provide evidence for far smaller fire power. Because that seems mainly to be your main focus. You seem to think that they couldn't have really destroyed the planet because they have not enough firepower.

That's what I want you to prove.

• • • Oh - and I think it's only a question of phrasing if I say that the phaser has such and such firepower and mean that the caused effects equal the effects a conventional weapon with such fire power would cause. I don't want in addition the debate how exactly the phaser is working. There are not enough information to really debate this.

And only a short reply to your

• • Holes = cheminey = exhaust port

As long as the phaser is shooting in the shaft, no matter could be ejected because it would be vaporized or wathever a phaser does with fired at matter.
When the phaser is deactivated and shock waves are propagating through the planet, they would destroy the shaft and nothing could be ejected anymore.
You are right: physics is sometimes really simple. But is is not always simple to consider all variables and circumstances.






And another short reply to the

• • very bright source of light.

It may be that there was a light source. It would contradict the novel, script and dialogue of the episode. But that's irrelevant.
We have seen that it is dark on the surface of the planet. It is not illuminated from this light source.
That has to mean, as already was proposed - that the planet has a dense cloud cover through which no light can penetrate.
And that would mean that we couldn't have seen what the weapons have caused on the surface of the planet. We have only seen some ripples in the cloud cover.
That's why I would like to postpone the debate about the visuals as long as we have not finished the fire power debate.

[Mr. Oragahn]

OK, I have galloped through the from you provided thread "Intersteller Alliance vs Borg".

But there is the same problem.

What firepower have the weapons in the beginning?

This vivftp bloke presumes in his post a firepower of 20 megatons for a photon torpedo at the start of Voyager.

But he does neither explain, how he comes to this 20 megatons nor does he link to a side where it is explained.

I can't check his stated figures.

For example, I would want to know, from which event he has derivated it.

How can I know that his calculation is correct (though I wouldn't really be able to check it) and how can I know that in the used event the upper limit of firepower was shown and that he hasn't misinterpreted the used event?

This 20 megatons are his presumption and from this he derivates all further figures.

But if his presumption is wrong all further figures are wrong too.

Arguably, using the search function on SB.com would probably lead you to his posts.
If he uses his figures so extensively, and if they're that known at SB.com, they shouldn't be that hard to find.
It's true that if those debaters could put links to their calcs in their sigs, it would help a hell of a lot.

For example, in both, Inheritance and Legacy we know that not the maximum fire power was shown.

In Inheritance they had to watch that they don't create to much seismic stress with the drilling. Their scans have indicated that the magma pockets where they have planned to set up the infusion units are somewhat unstable. That's why Julianna was going to monitor the density of the rock layers and adjust the strength of the particle beam as they have gone. Data has said, that his calculations have indicated that the first phaser blast will be approximately nineteen seconds in duration. In this time, they should have drilled to the magma pockets. Once the phaser beam was through the crust, they have boost its intensity by twelve percent till they were short before the magma pocket. Than - nearing the somewhat unstable magma pocket - they must have reduced the strength of the beam again because, after they have drilled through all the way to the magma pockets minus the remaining two kilometers in circa 14 seconds, they have needed for the last two kilometers suddenly five seconds. apparently Julianna, who has adjust the strength of the particle beam as they have gone, has reduced the strenght as they have got near to the magma pocket to prevent seismic stress. One could assume that this was pre-decided and already considered by Data in his calculations. But that would mean that they have needed only 14 seconds for the nearly 2'800 kilometers.

There's something important to note.
Where does this 12% increase come from?
I've seen it in a script, but not in the episode in question.

Notice, that if this increase was mentionned in a longer variant of the episode - and we see that the cut is a bit blunt at this point in the episode - it would mean that the average drilling rate of 10 km / 19 s (~520 m/s) is above the rate when they increase the yield by 12%, that is, 2 km / 5 s (400 m/s).
There's no way to work around this. In the script I had found, the 12% increase is immediately followed by the drilling through the last two kilometers, and there's no evidence that they would have reduced the power - especially a second after pumping it up.

This would show that once again, someone screwed up.

So really, I'd like to know what's correct about the 12% increase.

In Legacy they didn't wanted to alert the Alliance of their doing. The drilling had have to be very unnoticeable.[/list]In both events they had quasi to made a scalpel out of their battle axe - proverbial. Nevertheless - especially in Inheritance - they have shown great firepower. The question is how much firepower they would have if they wouldn't have reduced the battle axe to a scalpel.

There's no question on that. Legacy is clearly not the maximum they can do.

However, once again, I'll refer to the power generation estimations, which would never be able to provide enough energy, prooving that the phasers, though being extremely powerful weapons for certain duties, don't use as much energy as they'd need to to vapourize the same amount of matter. They're actually over efficient against matter, but not so much about certain natural materials (magnesite ore), and not against plain armour.
They disrupt/disintegrate matter, which is obviously less power hungry.
And less power hungry means less power at the other end, so even less chances to create exotic and weird seismic shockwaves of the insane magnitude seen in TDIC.

The same goes for the Voyager episode Rise.
They have expected that one torpedo with the used setting would be enough to shatter the asteroid enough. Why should they have used a higher setting if that would have been enough?
One can't conclude from this epeisode that the shown firepower is the upper limit.

Apparently, the goal was to destroy the asteroid, and a character simply stated that, after seeing the torp failing at destroying most of the asteroid, one of these torps should have been enough to vapourize it.
Of course, in such a moment, you can't be sure that he was coldly technical and that vapourize wasn't an hyperbole of any sort.
That said, it seems to be confirmed by Kim, who says that nothing more that 1cm wide debris should be remaining.
Looking at the recent asteroid busting simulations, and with certain documentaries I've seen about busting asteroids of different compositions if they were to threaten Earth, we saw that you needed to melt/vapourize a huge lot of an asteroid to create such small fragment, and even that would fail to a certain degree.

So in the end, the vapourization claim seems solid.

And RSA finds yields between 44 and 154.5 MT (1).

Here's what we could know about the method of destruction:

- The asteroid had to be instantly vapourized. Olivine is brittle, and the asteroid would break into large bits very fast.
- The blast would happen at the surface. However, as you have shown, there seems to be evidence that torpedoes can easily drill inside matter, so it could detonate inside, making the process much more efficient.
- The asteroid's density could be within 3000 kg/m³ and 7000 kg/m³, considering a mix of raw materials.

That's an averaged yield of 100 MT.

That's why I still demand that episodes are named from which the upper firepower is derivable.

I ask you for the same evidence regarding the considerably high gigaton claims you've been suggesting as being rather standard.

And if you name such an epsiode, I would demand an explanation why this episode should be enough to exlude Inheritance,...

I didn't plan to exclude Inheritance by any chance. I, however, pointed out a few discrepancies, notably the size of the hole as seen when Data was Juliana were down inside a pocket.

My point is that the writers just want something big, for the needs of the plot, and don't really check out if it's correlative, if it's proportional or even if it looks right.
And that's the double standard, since most calcs are derived from the observation of what's on screen.
It's a funny dance, and I have issues with certain premises Trekkies make. Of course, no VFX can be 100% right, and that's often why I tend to fall back on dialogue when there's just no way to make sense of what's seen. But even then, sometimes, it's not enough.

... Scorpion - with the stated maximum yield of 200 isotons for Mark VI photon torpedos, while a five million isoton yield would cause an explosion which could affect an entire star system and its shock wave would dispurse nanoprobes over a radius of five light years and a 54 isoton explosion would be enough to blow up a small planet - or last but not least: The Die is Cast.

And what do you know about isotons, exactly?
You may read the thread I linked to with more concern for details about the isoton thingy.

Vivftp has said the following:

I will note this line from VOY's Living Witness:

"One of the Voyager's torpedoes. Twenty five isoton yield. It could destroy an entire city within seconds."

25 isotons would destroy an entire city within seconds.
Not a country. Not a continent.

In the Omega Directive, a photon torpedoe raised to a yield of 54 isotons is enough to destroy a small planet (script written with the old definition of planet in mind).
They plan to boost the photon torpedoe to 80 isotons.

Yet, let's remember that they make it from a standard photon torpedoe.

Antimatter.

At best, they refined the process, which would suggest that standard torpedoes... like it or not, and nevermind if doesn't make much sense, seem to waste antimatter, or maybe waste a lot of energy... somehow.
Yet, with a few changes, they boost the yield to planet destroyer.
Of course, we know from Sagan's work, and contemporary confirmations by scientists, that to destroy a planet, you may not need more than 100 megatons, as long as you spread the damage strategically and thoroughly.

The modification could be about that: making the torpedoe spread its damage over a large area. Unfocus it.

A bit like a Genesis effect.

That's technobabble, but I don't think you can really smack me for doing so. It's Trek ffs. :)

In this light, isotons could be an unit which was probably created from factors such as level of final destruction on a standard M planet, efficiency of the reaction, intensity against X type of material used as a benchmark, etc.

Vivftp's post here outlines even more the lack of consistency of the unit.

He shows the size of a gravimetric warhead from Omega Directive (54 isotons), and the size of a warhead slightly bigger, filled with more explosive materials: enriched ultritium (DS9's A Time To Stand). That was 90 isotons.

Really, the increase can't be much.
The only problem lies in vivftp's calcs. We don't know where they are. I'll try to find them. RSA seems to think that Rise! would argue for yields such as 100 MT at least, or so.
vivftp thinks about 5 times lower yields.

There's the episode Night, but I'm unable to get any ref to the isoton term.

Taking vivftp's sayings regarding the beginning of Voyager; Voyager's torps were apparently rated at 6.5 isotons.
This would mean, with standard configuration, that it 1 isoton would equal a couple of megatons.
Rise came later in Voyager, so torps would probably have yields more in line with stuff from DS9/TNG, with yields in the tens of megatons.

Say 6.5 isoton = 50 megatons of destruction, according to parameters which are unknown, and not necessarily scaling up linearly either.
And that's largely above vivftp's own scale.

If scaled linearly, and assuming that it is strictly about about multiplying megatons by isotons, a 90 isoton torp would have a yield of 692.3 MT.

That said, this is an assumption I wouldn't make, considering the data presented earlier, showing that you can considerably increase the isoton scale of an antimatter torpedoe, without adding any extra antimatter, which largely points out that it's not a question of tons of TNT, but more a question of technobabble, efficiency and results over unknown accepted UFP benchmarks.

Remember, it's the same show which debades earlier, had an ounce (a couple of grams) of antimatter being able to crack a planet, or something like that.

That said, I think I'll also copy and paste that piece of text in a thread specifically dedicated to the isoton question.

You can't claim that the fire power shown in The Die is Cast is incosistent to other figures derivated from other episodes, if you don't show these episodes and how you derivate from them an upper limit of fire power.

Okay, I think it's time we get things clear.
I've been providing a couple of links, clues and even direct figures now, and none of them pointed to gigaton levels of firepower.
So please stop pretending I haven't done anything.

And nobody says that only the Romulans and Cardassians have such firepower.

You realize, I hope, that if that were true, the lack of consistency would only be huger.

The Klingons and Federations and all other powers in the Milky Way Galaxy would have powers in the same order of magnitude - if they aren't shown to be far weaker as for example the guys from Altec or Straleb.

• But even they are able to interstellar voyages and therefore are technological far more advanced than we are at the moment. One would have to assume, that they also have weapons far more advanced than our weapons from today. Weapons, only in the megatons yield are unplausible to assume. That's what we have already today. And the far superior Federation would have a priory far stronger weapons.

Why would one assume that? What have these guys that makes them so special? Why the ability to travel faster or farther makes a faction or civilisation more powerful in terms of weapons?

I think there is no reason to continue this debate as long as you don't provide evidence for far smaller fire power.
Because that seems mainly to be your main focus.

Ok, this is really beyond bordering BS.

Because that seems mainly to be your main focus. You seem to think that they couldn't have really destroyed the planet because the have not enough firepower.

That's what I want you to prove.

• Oh - and I think it's only a question of phrasing if I say that the phaser has such and such firepower and mean that the caused effects equal the effects a conventional weapon with such fire power would cause. I don't want in addition the debate how exactly the phaser is working. There are not enough information to really debate this.

In the episode, they may suddenly have the power to destroy a planet - but the episode shows it so poorly - but my point is that this episode comes as completely odd, opposing the vast and much lower range of episodes in Trek.

And only a short reply to your

• • Holes = cheminey = exhaust port

As long as the phaser is shooting in the shaft, no matter could be ejected because it would be vaporized or wathever a phaser does with fired at matter.
When the phaser is deactivated and shock waves are propagating through the planet, they would destroy the shaft and nothing could be ejected anymore.
You are right: physics is sometimes really simple. But is is not always simple to consider all variables and circumstances.

You tell me that the torpedoes will explode later on.
So the ripples we see are only the result of phasers.
I'll try to grab this episode.

You'll notice that you theory still fails to explain how 30% of the crust was destroyed, when looking at the extent of damage from space.

And I notice that you refuse to adress the peculiar behaviour of the ripples.

And another short reply to the

• • very bright source of light.

It may be that there was a light source. It would contradict the novel, script and dialogue of the episode. But that's irrelevant.
We have seen that it is dark on the surface of the planet. It is not illuminated from this light source.
That has to mean, as already was proposed - that the planet has a dense cloud cover through which no light can penetrate.
And that would mean that we couldn't have seen what the weapons have caused on the surface of the planet. We have only seen some ripples in the cloud cover.
That's why I would like to postpone the debate about the visuals as long as we have not finished the fire power debate.

1. The presence of a cloud layer would have not prevented the multi teraton jets of plasma hurtling out of the drilled holes if they happened.
2. If there's a cloud layer that thick, then I see that now the ripples are supposed to be cloud ripples. You're not even self consistent.

There are probably other points I'll think about later on.

[Who is like God arbour]

There's something important to note.
Where does this 12% increase come from?
I've seen it in a script, but not in the episode in question.

Notice, that if this increase was mentionned in a longer variant of the episode - and we see that the cut is a bit blunt at this point in the episode - it would mean that the average drilling rate of 10 km / 19 s (~520 m/s) is above the rate when they increase the yield by 12%, that is, 2 km / 5 s (400 m/s).
There's no way to work around this. In the script I had found, the 12% increase is immediately followed by the drilling through the last two kilometers, and there's no evidence that they would have reduced the power - especially a second after pumping it up.

This would show that once again, someone screwed up.

So really, I'd like to know what's correct about the 12% increase.

No, they have had to drill through the crust and a huge part of the mantle to a magma pocket that was shortly above the core, they wanted to "restart". An earthlike planet assuming, that would be round about 2'800 kilometers and accidentally that was what Geordi has shown in the briefing:

• 

Even if they wouldn't have increased the power it would be still circa 2'800 kilometers in 19 seconds - minus the last 2 kilometers in 5 from these 19 seconds.

However, once again, I'll refer to the power generation estimations, which would never be able to provide enough energy, prooving that the phasers, though being extremely powerful weapons for certain duties, don't use as much energy as they'd need to to vapourize the same amount of matter. They're actually over efficient against matter, but not so much about certain natural materials (magnesite ore), and not against plain armour.
They disrupt/disintegrate matter, which is obviously less power hungry.
And less power hungry means less power at the other end, so even less chances to create exotic and weird seismic shockwaves of the insane magnitude seen in TDIC.

I have already said, that it's only a question of phrasing if I say that the phaser has such and such firepower and mean that the caused effects equal the effects a conventional weapon with such fire power would cause.

If a phaser is vanishing a certain amount of matter, however, we compare that achievement with the needed energy to vaporize an equal amount of matter. That the phaser don't need so much energy is for starters irrelevant. We aren't really able to calculate the needed energy because we don't know how a phaser works and how much energy is needed to vanish a certain amount of matter with a phaser. It is absolutely possible, that a phaser is more efficient than conventional weapons which would vaporize the matter. That would be a good and convincing reason to use phasers instead of conventional weapons.

And it could be that a phaser can, if accordingly adjusted, create chain reactions. Although such a phaser wouldn't need much energy for itself, it could start a chain reaction in its target which would release more energy than the phaser has brought and could still continue when the phaser has already stopped.

The same goes for the Voyager episode Rise.
They have expected that one torpedo with the used setting would be enough to shatter the asteroid enough. Why should they have used a higher setting if that would have been enough?
One can't conclude from this epeisode that the shown firepower is the upper limit.

Apparently, the goal was to destroy the asteroid, and a character simply stated that, after seeing the torp failing at destroying most of the asteroid, one of these torps should have been enough to vapourize it.
Of course, in such a moment, you can't be sure that he was coldly technical and that vapourize wasn't an hyperbole of any sort.
That said, it seems to be confirmed by Kim, who says that nothing more that 1cm wide debris should be remaining.
Looking at the recent asteroid busting simulations, and with certain documentaries I've seen about busting asteroids of different compositions if they were to threaten Earth, we saw that you needed to melt/vapourize a huge lot of an asteroid to create such small fragment, and even that would fail to a certain degree.

So in the end, the vapourization claim seems solid.

And RSA finds yields between 44 and 154.5 MT (1).

Here's what we could know about the method of destruction:

- The asteroid had to be instantly vapourized. Olivine is brittle, and the asteroid would break into large bits very fast.
- The blast would happen at the surface. However, as you have shown, there seems to be evidence that torpedoes can easily drill inside matter, so it could detonate inside, making the process much more efficient.
- The asteroid's density could be within 3000 kg/m³ and 7000 kg/m³, considering a mix of raw materials.

That's an averaged yield of 100 MT.

You are missing my point. I don't object your calculations. I have objected, that this photon torpedo doesn't show us the upper limit of fire power. They have set the yield of the torpedo so high as they have thought necessary to destroy the asteroid. If they would have thought that more would have been necessary they would have increased the yield - or - if one assumes that that would have been impossible - they would have fired another torpedo.
You can't claim that the 100 MT you have calculated are the upper limit of the topedo yields. As far as you know, it could lie far higher.

That's why I still demand that episodes are named from which the upper firepower is derivable.

I ask you for the same evidence regarding the considerably high gigaton claims you've been suggesting as being rather standard.

OK: assume for once that the already named episodes are to considering. They show high gigaton firepower and more.
What do you want else?
You ask for a proofs but don't accept the episodes which can prove it.
That seems to me conflicting.

My point is that the writers just want something big, for the needs of the plot, and don't really check out if it's correlative, if it's proportional or even if it looks right.
And that's the double standard, since most calcs are derived from the observation of what's on screen.
It's a funny dance, and I have issues with certain premises Trekkies make. Of course, no VFX can be 100% right, and that's often why I tend to fall back on dialogue when there's just no way to make sense of what's seen. But even then, sometimes, it's not enough.

You could say the same about unreasonable low yields. As I have asked already, is it plausible that a civilication that is able to interstellar travel - what would mean that they are able to harness huge amount of energy - has only weapons which are not far stronger than the weapons we have today?

... Scorpion - with the stated maximum yield of 200 isotons for Mark VI photon torpedos, while a five million isoton yield would cause an explosion which could affect an entire star system and its shock wave would dispurse nanoprobes over a radius of five light years and a 54 isoton explosion would be enough to blow up a small planet - or last but not least: The Die is Cast.

And what do you know about isotons, exactly?
You may read the thread I linked to with more concern for details about the isoton thingy.

Vivftp has said the following:

I will note this line from VOY's Living Witness:

"One of the Voyager's torpedoes. Twenty five isoton yield. It could destroy an entire city within seconds."

25 isotons would destroy an entire city within seconds.
Not a country. Not a continent.

In the Omega Directive, a photon torpedoe raised to a yield of 54 isotons is enough to destroy a small planet (script written with the old definition of planet in mind).
They plan to boost the photon torpedoe to 80 isotons.

Yet, let's remember that they make it from a standard photon torpedoe.

Antimatter.

At best, they refined the process, which would suggest that standard torpedoes... like it or not, and nevermind if doesn't make much sense, seem to waste antimatter, or maybe waste a lot of energy... somehow.
Yet, with a few changes, they boost the yield to planet destroyer.
Of course, we know from Sagan's work, and contemporary confirmations by scientists, that to destroy a planet, you may not need more than 100 megatons, as long as you spread the damage strategically and thoroughly.

The modification could be about that: making the torpedoe spread its damage over a large area. Unfocus it.

A bit like a Genesis effect.

That's technobabble, but I don't think you can really smack me for doing so. It's Trek ffs. :)

In this light, isotons could be an unit which was probably created from factors such as level of final destruction on a standard M planet, efficiency of the reaction, intensity against X type of material used as a benchmark, etc.

Vivftp's post here outlines even more the lack of consistency of the unit.

He shows the size of a gravimetric warhead from Omega Directive (54 isotons), and the size of a warhead slightly bigger, filled with more explosive materials: enriched ultritium (DS9's A Time To Stand). That was 90 isotons.

Really, the increase can't be much.
The only problem lies in vivftp's calcs. We don't know where they are. I'll try to find them. RSA seems to think that Rise! would argue for yields such as 100 MT at least, or so.
vivftp thinks about 5 times lower yields.

There's the episode Night, but I'm unable to get any ref to the isoton term.

Taking vivftp's sayings regarding the beginning of Voyager; Voyager's torps were apparently rated at 6.5 isotons.
This would mean, with standard configuration, that it 1 isoton would equal a couple of megatons.
Rise came later in Voyager, so torps would probably have yields more in line with stuff from DS9/TNG, with yields in the tens of megatons.

Say 6.5 isoton = 50 megatons of destruction, according to parameters which are unknown, and not necessarily scaling up linearly either.
And that's largely above vivftp's own scale.

If scaled linearly, and assuming that it is strictly about about multiplying megatons by isotons, a 90 isoton torp would have a yield of 692.3 MT.

That said, this is an assumption I wouldn't make, considering the data presented earlier, showing that you can considerably increase the isoton scale of an antimatter torpedoe, without adding any extra antimatter, which largely points out that it's not a question of tons of TNT, but more a question of technobabble, efficiency and results over unknown accepted UFP benchmarks.

Remember, it's the same show which debades earlier, had an ounce (a couple of grams) of antimatter being able to crack a planet, or something like that.

If 6,5 isotons would equal 50 megatons,
5'000'000 isotons would equal 38'461'538 megatons or 38 teratons.

• Do you really think, that 34 teratons are enough to cause an explosion which could affect an entire star system and would cause a shock wave, which could dispurse nanoprobes over a radius of five light years.
  • At which - one has to assume - they are either accelerated to very high relativistic velocities [still very unlikely] or dispursed through subspace [more likely]. It would be a useless weapon if the nanoprobes are dispursed over a radius of five light years with far less than a tenth c.

If 6,5 isotons would equal 50 megatons,
54 isotons would equal 415 megatons.

• Do you really think, that 415 megatons are enough to blow up a small planet?
  • I don't know Sagan's work. But somehow I doubt that a single photon torpedo could spread the damage as strategically and thoroughly as necessary according to Sagan's work.

We may not exactly know what an isoton is, but with such low figure, the described effects are certainly not achievable.

You can't claim that the fire power shown in The Die is Cast is incosistent to other figures derivated from other episodes, if you don't show these episodes and how you derivate from them an upper limit of fire power.

Okay, I think it's time we get things clear.
I've been providing a couple of links, clues and even direct figures now, and none of them pointed to gigaton levels of firepower.
So please stop pretending I haven't done anything.

1. I have this debate with you and not with this Vivftp bloke.
2. You have not provided calculations and you have not provided links which lead directly to such calculations. It's insufficient if you provide a link to a whole thread in which then I have to search what you mean.
3. I have given an objection to the one provided link. Your answer was that I could have searched other threads too. That's insane. I'm not doing your homework at providing evidence. As far as you have the burden of proof that's your job.
4. I'm sorry that I have to repeat it again. But I want the name of an episode from which one can derivate the upper limit of yields. And I want to know why this episode ought to be prefered to the from me mentioned episodes. I have no problem if you provide a link to a post or site in which I can - without searching - see what you are meaning. This link has to be as directly as possible. It would be even better if you also drag and drop the concerning passages in your own post.
5. And you should assure that this calculations aren't based on presumptions. They should be logical and plausible.

And nobody says that only the Romulans and Cardassians have such firepower.

You realize, I hope, that if that were true, the lack of consistency would only be huger.

Only if there is indeed a lack of consistency. But still, you have failed to show it.

The Klingons and Federations and all other powers in the Milky Way Galaxy would have powers in the same order of magnitude - if they aren't shown to be far weaker as for example the guys from Altec or Straleb.

• But even they are able to interstellar voyages and therefore are technological far more advanced than we are at the moment. One would have to assume, that they also have weapons far more advanced than our weapons from today. Weapons, only in the megatons yield are unplausible to assume. That's what we have already today. And the far superior Federation would have a priory far stronger weapons.

Why would one assume that? What have these guys that makes them so special? Why the ability to travel faster or farther makes a faction or civilisation more powerful in terms of weapons?

Because, if they are able to interstellar travel they have to be able to harness huge amounts of energy. And if they are able to harness huge amounts of energy they can use this energy for destructive purposes too. Furthermore the knowledge how to travel faster than light premise profound knowledge in physics. This knowledge is always usable to also build weapons.

In the episode, they may suddenly have the power to destroy a planet - but the episode shows it so poorly - but my point is that this episode comes as completely odd, opposing the vast and much lower range of episodes in Trek.

As I have shown, there are more than only on episode which shows such firepower. Scorpion, The Omega Diretive and Inheritance.
And again, which episodes in Star Trek are showing "vast and much lower range" as an upper limit.

You tell me that the torpedoes will explode later on.
So the ripples we see are only the result of phasers.
I'll try to grab this episode.

Finally

You'll notice that you theory still fails to explain how 30% of the crust was destroyed, when looking at the extent of damage from space.

And I notice that you refuse to adress the peculiar behaviour of the ripples.

I have already said that it is possible that the VFX is not perfect. But is an error in VFX reason enough to exlude the episode? We know what clearly was meant. The VFX guy has had probably no clue how he should display the bombardement and has given his best.
I do, however, prefer to try and find ways to fit these kinds of things into continuity, which could at least in theory make sense. I just don't like excluding them altogether. [quoted from Socar]

1. The presence of a cloud layer would have not prevented the multi teraton jets of plasma hurtling out of the drilled holes if they happened.
2. If there's a cloud layer that thick, then I see that now the ripples are supposed to be cloud ripples. You're not even self consistent.

1. And here I have thought we would make progress. Above you have granted that the shock waves from the phasers could collapse the afore drilled shafts. Why do you insist again to see "multi teraton jets of plasma hurtling out of the drilled holes"?
2. I don't understand your last objection. That was an alternate argumentation. If you insist that there is a light source although we have seen that it was dark on the surface of the planet, there has to be a thick cloud cover. That would mean that we couldn't have seen what has happened on the surface. We could have only seen the ripples in the cloud cover, caused by the phasers. That would made every debate about visualisation nearly redundant.

[Socar]

You'll notice that you theory still fails to explain how 30% of the crust was destroyed, when looking at the extent of damage from space.

It should be noted that from the perspective we are given when the bombardment is taking place, we can only see 6 or 7 ships firing, and yet there were 20 in the fleet. It could be that the other ships were also firing off camera at other parts of the planet.

And I notice that you refuse to adress the peculiar behaviour of the ripples.

If I recall correctly, Mike Wong noted on his NDF Theory page that the chain reaction of the NDF succeeds (in theory) in explaining the peculiarities of these issues of the TDiC bombardment. Of course, it's still not perfect, but much of the VFX in Star Trek is not either.

[Mr. Oragahn]

It should be noted that from the perspective we are given when the bombardment is taking place, we can only see 6 or 7 ships firing, and yet there were 20 in the fleet. It could be that the other ships were also firing off camera at other parts of the planet.

There were 8 ships on that side of the planet, at least. 7 seen on screen, plus a green fluo beam coming from another one off screen, closer to the camera.

8 of 20, that's 40% of the fleet.
Look at the extent of the damage. Multiply it by 2.5, and you'll see that you clearly don't even remotely approach 30% of planetary surface.

If I recall correctly, Mike Wong noted on his NDF Theory page that the chain reaction of the NDF succeeds (in theory) in explaining the peculiarities of these issues of the TDiC bombardment. Of course, it's still not perfect, but much of the VFX in Star Trek is not either.

Knowing the value of certain of M. Wong's claims, I'd be eager to know how he rationalizes this.

[Mr. Oragahn]

First, let me open an Inheritance/Legacy thread.

From there, we'll be able to post links to posts, and concentrate on TDIC.

However, once again, I'll refer to the power generation estimations, which would never be able to provide enough energy, prooving that the phasers, though being extremely powerful weapons for certain duties, don't use as much energy as they'd need to to vapourize the same amount of matter. They're actually over efficient against matter, but not so much about certain natural materials (magnesite ore), and not against plain armour.
They disrupt/disintegrate matter, which is obviously less power hungry.
And less power hungry means less power at the other end, so even less chances to create exotic and weird seismic shockwaves of the insane magnitude seen in TDIC.

I have already said, that it's only a question of phrasing if I say that the phaser has such and such firepower and mean that the caused effects equal the effects a conventional weapon with such fire power would cause.

If a phaser is vanishing a certain amount of matter, however, we compare that achievement with the needed energy to vaporize an equal amount of matter. That the phaser don't need so much energy is for starters irrelevant. We aren't really able to calculate the needed energy because we don't know how a phaser works and how much energy is needed to vanish a certain amount of matter with a phaser. It is absolutely possible, that a phaser is more efficient than conventional weapons which would vaporize the matter. That would be a good and convincing reason to use phasers instead of conventional weapons.

You got me wrong from the moment you referd to JMS' calcs, which were based on direct energy transfer.

But we agree that it is not the case. Something much more exotic, and efficient, is at play.

And it could be that a phaser can, if accordingly adjusted, create chain reactions. Although such a phaser wouldn't need much energy for itself, it could start a chain reaction in its target which would release more energy than the phaser has brought and could still continue when the phaser has already stopped.

Of course, starting such a chain reaction would require that there's enough critical mass. How the phasers would manage to create critical mass is a mystery.

Apparently, the goal was to destroy the asteroid, and a character simply stated that, after seeing the torp failing at destroying most of the asteroid, one of these torps should have been enough to vapourize it.
Of course, in such a moment, you can't be sure that he was coldly technical and that vapourize wasn't an hyperbole of any sort.
That said, it seems to be confirmed by Kim, who says that nothing more that 1cm wide debris should be remaining.
Looking at the recent asteroid busting simulations, and with certain documentaries I've seen about busting asteroids of different compositions if they were to threaten Earth, we saw that you needed to melt/vapourize a huge lot of an asteroid to create such small fragment, and even that would fail to a certain degree.

So in the end, the vapourization claim seems solid.

And RSA finds yields between 44 and 154.5 MT (1).

Here's what we could know about the method of destruction:

- The asteroid had to be instantly vapourized. Olivine is brittle, and the asteroid would break into large bits very fast.
- The blast would happen at the surface. However, as you have shown, there seems to be evidence that torpedoes can easily drill inside matter, so it could detonate inside, making the process much more efficient.
- The asteroid's density could be within 3000 kg/m³ and 7000 kg/m³, considering a mix of raw materials.

That's an averaged yield of 100 MT.

You are missing my point. I don't object your calculations. I have objected, that this photon torpedo doesn't show us the upper limit of fire power. They have set the yield of the torpedo so high as they have thought necessary to destroy the asteroid. If they would have thought that more would have been necessary they would have increased the yield - or - if one assumes that that would have been impossible - they would have fired another torpedo.
You can't claim that the 100 MT you have calculated are the upper limit of the topedo yields. As far as you know, it could lie far higher.

1. If they had to fire another torpedoe, it would actually show that one wouldn't be enough, and thus we would know we're dealing with the top yield.
2. There's no reason to believe that the torp could be much more powerful. It's still about antimatter, and apparently the size of the warheads have not moved that much.
3. Rise happens after TNG. TDIC is happening in late TNG I think, or just a few years later - I admit I don't know my timelines well enough.
Therefore, examplary yields should be picked from TNG/DS9, not from a later era.
4. From the TNG era, two torps fired by the E-D shatter a big asteroid. We're likely within the usual first quarter of the megaton range.

That's why I still demand that episodes are named from which the upper firepower is derivable.

I ask you for the same evidence regarding the considerably high gigaton claims you've been suggesting as being rather standard.

OK: assume for once that the already named episodes are to considering. They show high gigaton firepower and more.
What do you want else?
You ask for a proofs but don't accept the episodes which can prove it.
That seems to me conflicting.

For the episodes which really support gigaton firepower figures, you named a few. Either we realized that those episodes involved mechanisms which had nothing to do with DET, and thus were not acceptable for proof of gigaton level DET weaponry, be it beams or torps.
Masks was wrong.
Inheritance and Legacy involve nuclear disruption forces.
And the other are only about mentions of the isoton scale... which is, thus far, absolutely pointless and unusable.
So in the end, that makes a poor pool of evidence, especially in the light which do put the weapons in the low megaton range.

You could say the same about unreasonable low yields. As I have asked already, is it plausible that a civilication that is able to interstellar travel - what would mean that they are able to harness huge amount of energy - has only weapons which are not far stronger than the weapons we have today?

Hum, the phasers are thousand times better than anything we have. Their range is huge and speed instantaneous, and their abilities are varied. Phasers are very versatile and powerful. Their most advanced destructive system involves mechanics which do more controlled damage over inert materials, than any traditional DET beam of the same power. Rate of fire is particularily high and LOS can be adjusted anytime without any effort.
Torpedoes, while the yields don't sound that impressive, and actually very advanced pieces of weaponry. Advanced computers, shielded, fast, can be dialed down to very very sub TNT levels, and with 1 to 3 digit megaton level warheads of the size of a volley ball, or less.
Rates of fire are also high.

You can't claim that the fire power shown in The Die is Cast is incosistent to other figures derivated from other episodes, if you don't show these episodes and how you derivate from them an upper limit of fire power.

Okay, I think it's time we get things clear.
I've been providing a couple of links, clues and even direct figures now, and none of them pointed to gigaton levels of firepower.
So please stop pretending I haven't done anything.

1. I have this debate with you and not with this Vivftp bloke.
2. You have not provided calculations and you have not provided links which lead directly to such calculations. It's insufficient if you provide a link to a whole thread in which then I have to search what you mean.
3. I have given an objection to the one provided link. Your answer was that I could have searched other threads too. That's insane. I'm not doing your homework at providing evidence. As far as you have the burden of proof that's your job.
4. I'm sorry that I have to repeat it again. But I want the name of an episode from which one can derivate the upper limit of yields. And I want to know why this episode ought to be prefered to the from me mentioned episodes. I have no problem if you provide a link to a post or site in which I can - without searching - see what you are meaning. This link has to be as directly as possible. It would be even better if you also drag and drop the concerning passages in your own post.
5. And you should assure that this calculations aren't based on presumptions. They should be logical and plausible.

1. It doesn't really matter, you know. You should be able to make the difference and notice that by citing vivftp, I'm not pasting his arguments on your shirt, but actually using evidence he outlined for my arguments, notably the interesting pictures of warhead sizes. They are very relevant to our question, and are not strawmen or else.

2. That is not an objection. You asked to see vivftp's calcs. Please notice that I tend to end towards RSA's higher calcs than vivftp's ones, and RSA's calcs are easily found, I already posted links to them several times. Ultimately, as I said, we will try to find vivftp's calcs, unless you're only interested in finding the higher calcs possible and leave me doing this search job.

3. Your request is absurd. If you want to find only high yields, you'll have to obtain those for TDIC as well, and based on dialogue and/or inconsistent visuals, you'll end with near Death Star levels... which you'll never be able to make fit with the higher yields you'll be asking for the other episodes. Those yields will, of course, sound completely absurd in the eyes of most Trek debaters. You'll end with levels which would already start in the very high gigaton - low teraton level, and more.
You think I'm fool enough to accept your tactic of asking only for high yields for the standard and less powerful weapons, and accept a low yield for TDIC so you can happily bridge them?

4. They are. When you have a man lift a smaller than volley ball sized M/AM warhead without really much trouble at all, you know that the thing can't wait tens of KG. And we know what 1 kg of antimatter does.
You can't cheat on such simple elements.

And nobody says that only the Romulans and Cardassians have such firepower.

You realize, I hope, that if that were true, the lack of consistency would only be huger.

Only if there is indeed a lack of consistency. But still, you have failed to show it.

I have shown it. You, on the contrary, are keeping asking for high yields, while it is your job to find them. You ask me to prove that the calcs I forwarded are very low yields, so you can claim that there's room for higher yields.
Prove that it's possible.

"For the episodes which really support gigaton firepower figures, you named a few. Either we realized that those episodes involved mechanisms which had nothing to do with DET, and thus were not acceptable for proof of gigaton level DET weaponry, be it beams or torps.
Masks was wrong.
Inheritance and Legacy involve nuclear disruption forces.
And the other are only about mentions of the isoton scale... which is, thus far, absolutely pointless and unusable.
So in the end, that makes a poor pool of evidence, especially in the light which do put the weapons in the low megaton range."

The Klingons and Federations and all other powers in the Milky Way Galaxy would have powers in the same order of magnitude - if they aren't shown to be far weaker as for example the guys from Altec or Straleb.

• But even they are able to interstellar voyages and therefore are technological far more advanced than we are at the moment. One would have to assume, that they also have weapons far more advanced than our weapons from today. Weapons, only in the megatons yield are unplausible to assume. That's what we have already today. And the far superior Federation would have a priory far stronger weapons.

Why would one assume that? What have these guys that makes them so special? Why the ability to travel faster or farther makes a faction or civilisation more powerful in terms of weapons?

Because, if they are able to interstellar travel they have to be able to harness huge amounts of energy. And if they are able to harness huge amounts of energy they can use this energy for destructive purposes too. Furthermore the knowledge how to travel faster than light premise profound knowledge in physics. This knowledge is always usable to also build weapons.

Prove that it applies in Trek.
We know what they use for their warheads. We know the properties of M/AM. We know the size of the warheads, and have an idea how how light/heavy warheads inside torps are.

An M/AM warhead of a standard torpedo:



Now, a gravimetric warhead, 54 isotons. Tougher than a M/AM warhead of the same size:



This warhead swap was necessary to get rid of the powerful omega particles.
Starting Voyager's torps were of 6.5 isotons.

Even without paying attention to the isoton yields, we know that the more powerful, but specific, gravimetric warhead is very easy to lift, and that's not even considering all the hardware inside to maintain the reactants, not the reactants' masses themselves.

For the reference, 1 kg of AM = 42.96 MT.

I'd suggest you lifting a 20 kg weight, to get an idea.

So yes, good luck claiming gigaton yields!

(All vivftp's pics.)

As for space/warp capable ships and power requirements, please notice that Cochrane's lousy rocket was warp capable, yet its propulsions systems were relatively primitive.
Mass lightning (if it exists in Trek) and warp fields, should enable faster travel without involving high typically newtonian forces.

That, coupled to RSA's power generation estimations presented earlier on, clearly shows that anyone who wants to claim gigaton levels for beam weapons and torps has not been paying much attention.

In the episode, they may suddenly have the power to destroy a planet - but the episode shows it so poorly - but my point is that this episode comes as completely odd, opposing the vast and much lower range of episodes in Trek.

As I have shown, there are more than only on episode which shows such firepower.
Scorpion, The Omega Diretive and Inheritance.
And again, which episodes in Star Trek are showing "vast and much lower range" as an upper limit.

Those I presented, coupled to the rest of evidence.
Scorpion? Isotons, Borg wonder weapon. Yeah, very useful.
Omega Directive? Isotons, more powerful than M/AM warhead (100% efficient as long as you tap in normal space particles), yet extremely easy to lift. Which shoots your argument.
Inheritance - okay, now that you've corrected your stance, and make it clear that you leave DET aside, I'm fine with the effects of phasers on inert matter. That said, it clearly DOES NOT exclude the following issues:

1. The magnesite slowing the beam down to 60m/s.
2. The magnesite creating a backdraft, which significantly menaces the ship's structural integrity.
3. The screwing up if the 12% increase is canon.
4. The visuals once inside the last pocket, which do not show a hole that deep. Barely a few hundreds of meters down at best (we see the blue sky).

You tell me that the torpedoes will explode later on.
So the ripples we see are only the result of phasers.
I'll try to grab this episode.

Finally.

I pretty much appreciate that "finally" comment, when I actually saw that the vast majority of torpedoes did detonate.
So much for your claims.
So, once again, where are the intense teraton jet streams?

For example, Mount St Helens's explosion was said to be a 5-6 magnitude event on Richter's scale, with the power of 500 atomic bombs of the likes dropped on Japan in WWII.
The eruption column reached an altitude of 12 miles in 10 minutes.

Please, let us see the lasting effects of teratons of DET dumped in the crust of the planet, especially if it destroyed 30% of it (which it didn't, considering visual evidence about area of damage).

You'll notice that you theory still fails to explain how 30% of the crust was destroyed, when looking at the extent of damage from space.

And I notice that you refuse to adress the peculiar behaviour of the ripples.

I have already said that it is possible that the VFX is not perfect. But is an error in VFX reason enough to exlude the episode? We know what clearly was meant. The VFX guy has had probably no clue how he should display the bombardement and has given his best.

Sure, so you want to go by dialogue only, or what?

Then how can we consider that shattering rock and sending it up in the air, and letting it drop back, can destroy a crust?
Mass and velocity will crush the rock back into the planet, and the crust... will just be there.

And of course, then how is doing the same to a mantle... supposed to destroy it?

Per your own reasoning, this planet was just a dead ball of rock, inhabitated by being which can live in space forever.

I do, however, prefer to try and find ways to fit these kinds of things into continuity, which could at least in theory make sense. I just don't like excluding them altogether. [quoted from Socar]

You'll have to get your head around the fact that there's no way to rationalize it.

1. The presence of a cloud layer would have not prevented the multi teraton jets of plasma hurtling out of the drilled holes if they happened.
2. If there's a cloud layer that thick, then I see that now the ripples are supposed to be cloud ripples. You're not even self consistent.

1. And here I have thought we would make progress. Above you have granted that the shock waves from the phasers could collapse the afore drilled shafts. Why do you insist again to see "multi teraton jets of plasma hurtling out of the drilled holes"?
2. I don't understand your last objection. That was an alternate argumentation. If you insist that there is a light source although we have seen that it was dark on the surface of the planet, there has to be a thick cloud cover. That would mean that we couldn't have seen what has happened on the surface. We could have only seen the ripples in the cloud cover, caused by the phasers. That would made every debate about visualisation nearly redundant.

1.a. The phasers hit the ground way before the torps reached it. The shockwaves couldn't collapse holes which don't exist yet.
1.b. Shattered crust is easier to push up than one solid layer.

2.a. I insist that there is a light source... because there is one. It didn't look like you were formulating an alternative argument at all.
Plus is there proof that Odo and Kira were on the night side of the planet?
2.b. Considering that several torpedoes did hit the surface, the debate would be far from redundant.

[Socar]

Rise happens after TNG. TDIC is happening in late TNG I think, or just a few years later - I admit I don't know my timelines well enough.

TDiC happens a little after Generations takes place, which is less than a year or so after the end of TNG. Rise takes place about 2 years after TDiC.

[Jedi Master Spock]

Prove that it applies in Trek.
We know what they use for their warheads. We know the properties of M/AM. We know the size of the warheads, and have an idea how how light/heavy warheads inside torps are.

An M/AM warhead of a standard torpedo:



Now, a gravimetric warhead, 54 isotons. Tougher than a M/AM warhead of the same size:



This warhead swap was necessary to get rid of the powerful omega particles.
Starting Voyager's torps were of 6.5 isotons.

Even without paying attention to the isoton yields, we know that the more powerful, but specific, gravimetric warhead is very easy to lift, and that's not even considering all the hardware inside to maintain the reactants, not the reactants' masses themselves.

For the reference, 1 kg of AM = 42.96 MT.

I'd suggest you lifting a 20 kg weight, to get an idea.

So yes, good luck claiming gigaton yields!

For reference, I claim gigaton TNG-era maximum setting yields, and am hardly ignorant of those shots. I'd like to take a moment to point out a few things.

First, and foremost, you'll note that the warhead chamber seen in "Half a Life" has a mate immediately opposite; the cell whose interior is visible takes up approximately 1/24th of the torpedo's straight section (upper half, near half, roughly one sixth of the length).

At a minimum, we can expect the torpedo to normally have at least two such modules (by symmetry); we can easily expect as many as 24 such modules loaded in such a configuration, especially considering that we know, from "The Emissary," that functional drive and shield systems of a photon torpedo can be contained within the outer shell exclusively, suggesting that the entire interior is potentially modular.

Conveniently, for a gigaton maximum normal yield, we need slightly less than 1 kg of antimatter per module. This is actually a little high for a module that size, considering we usually are thinking of finely divided slush antideuterium, but larger warhead modules are not completely out of the question considering that all the additional non-warhead components seen may be dispensed with for bombardment purposes (i.e., the maximum yield scenario).

It is quite reasonable, IMO, to suggest that a little under 24 kg of antimatter can be packed into a completely modular torpedo somewhere around the dimensions of 210x76x45 cm.

[Kane Starkiller]

Just to add a few points. I believe that Mr. Oragahn already covered TDiC and Inheritance to be useless in obtaining any kind of power levels.

Regarding the Masks example it really doesn't show anything approaching gigaton/s power levels. When the beam hits the comet it just slowly melts/vaporizes away. If the thing was struck with anything approaching gigaton/s power levels the ice would vaporize and expand rapidly in all directions shattering/vaporizing the surrounding ice and what we would be seeing is a very violent explosion. That is nowhere to be seen.
Such power levels don't make any sense in the context of the episode anyway. After Picard ordered to set the phaser to wide beam and 10% power so as to carefully dislodge the artifact from the comet are we supposed to believe that actually entailed blasting it with gigatons of energy?

Finally an example from Cost of Living.
After blowing up an asteroid with several photon torpedo shots a dense core remained and Worf stated that another photon torpedo shot wouldn't be effective. They didn't even consider phasers but instead decided to fire some kind of beam from ship's main deflector:


The core is big roughly as Enterprises secondary hull and should present no problem for the phaser beams if they were capable of putting out anything near gigaton/s to say nothing of teratons or whatever.
The same goes for photon torpedoes since they should be at least as powerful as several seconds of sustained phaser fire.

[SailorSaturn13]

The most easy way to go is suggested in this image:
http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/display ... 52&pos=345

We see the sun not as point of light, but as big object. No what would happen if anybody would see a sun that close w/o Atmosphere? He would be BLINDED immediately by the sheer luminosity of the sun!

Therefore, it is clear that the screen (we never see the planet directly) is filtering strong light out. And this suggests that there ARE bright spots on planet -- the are just filtered out by screen filter and presented as dim waves!

Alternatively, we really could suggest we only see dust clouds.

Alas, this is pointless. The visuals CAN NOT be reached with MT or GT weapons - You need high TT to PT just to create visible effects! So the episode IS consistent with itself. A

As for weapons, They are not DET weapons (clear by visuals and easy calculation oof what can be in a ship that big), and most likely they are chain reaction weapons - just like those sun killers in "Generations" and "Pale moonlight". They are NOT standard weapons, but existent, BOTH per canon

[Mike DiCenso]

Kane Starkiller wrote:

Finally an example from Cost of Living.
After blowing up an asteroid with several photon torpedo shots a dense core remained and Worf stated that another photon torpedo shot wouldn't be effective. They didn't even consider phasers but instead decided to fire some kind of beam from ship's main deflector:


The core is big roughly as Enterprises secondary hull and should present no problem for the phaser beams if they were capable of putting out anything near gigaton/s to say nothing of teratons or whatever.
The same goes for photon torpedoes since they should be at least as powerful as several seconds of sustained phaser fire.

Unfortunately you once again take something out of context. In this particular case the core of the asteroid was made up of a super-dense techno-babble material (nitrium) that not even photon torpedoes, never mind the phasers was enough to destroy it, thus necessitating the use of the deflector.
-Mike

[Mr. Oragahn]

Prove that it applies in Trek.
We know what they use for their warheads. We know the properties of M/AM. We know the size of the warheads, and have an idea how how light/heavy warheads inside torps are.

An M/AM warhead of a standard torpedo:



Now, a gravimetric warhead, 54 isotons. Tougher than a M/AM warhead of the same size:



This warhead swap was necessary to get rid of the powerful omega particles.
Starting Voyager's torps were of 6.5 isotons.

Even without paying attention to the isoton yields, we know that the more powerful, but specific, gravimetric warhead is very easy to lift, and that's not even considering all the hardware inside to maintain the reactants, not the reactants' masses themselves.

For the reference, 1 kg of AM = 42.96 MT.

I'd suggest you lifting a 20 kg weight, to get an idea.

So yes, good luck claiming gigaton yields!

For reference, I claim gigaton TNG-era maximum setting yields, and am hardly ignorant of those shots.

The only ones which can be measured by DET, was Masks. First, your figure was about a total energy deposited into the commet. Divided over the duration of the process, the wattage became lower.
Secondly, I have finely adressed this one as being a joke, in that other vs thread. There's just as much evidence to point out that the phaser, at this rate, would have needed more than one hour to melt the whole comet. Of course, for the whole discussion, I have pointed out how this episode is hardly consistent. I don't expect Picard and co sit in the birdge for more than one hour, and resume "panic and tension" a few seconds before the final ice goes off... in the most unscientific and absurd way. Yes, even the way ice melts is stupid. Not mentioning the fact that the alien station was supposed to be in the core of the comet - as pointed out by dialogue mentionning the source of the signal - not in the outskirt of the comet, as the visuals show it.
There's also the fact that Geordi planned to melt the ice, not vapourize it.
Point being simple. If we go by dialogue only, since visuals disagree with each other, we end with only statements about what they planet to do to that comet, without really knowing how long it took, nor how big that comet was.
Ergo, that Masks calculation relies on unacceptable and convenient asumptions which dismiss a vast bulk of the episode disagreeing evidence.
Besides, I'm curious as to how the ice didn't break. No matter how low the yield would be, just to raise temp strictly at the first fraction of the first degree necessary for fusion, or say... sublimation, even pouring cold water on ice will crack ice. And I'm not talking about temps necessary for vapourisation mind you.

The rest, as seen in this Inheritance/Legacy thread, is more evidence that you and others seem to insist that vapourization energies can be considered okay for calcs, while we know nitz about the phaser working.
Even more, the calcs are based on measurements of volumes, based on a okudagram that shows rather funny features.
- but this is adressed in the proper thread anyway.

So no, I don't see any solid evidence for those gigatons of energy, especially in short bursts.

I'd like to take a moment to point out a few things.

First, and foremost, you'll note that the warhead chamber seen in "Half a Life" has a mate immediately opposite; the cell whose interior is visible takes up approximately 1/24th of the torpedo's straight section (upper half, near half, roughly one sixth of the length).

At a minimum, we can expect the torpedo to normally have at least two such modules (by symmetry); we can easily expect as many as 24 such modules loaded in such a configuration, especially considering that we know, from "The Emissary," that functional drive and shield systems of a photon torpedo can be contained within the outer shell exclusively, suggesting that the entire interior is potentially modular.

All cross sections and caps of torpedos I've seen show that there's enough room for only two warheads. All the rest is taken up by whatever's necessary to protect and fly that torp.



The shot above, I think used for the tech manual, is the same than the shot of the mark XXV displayed on one of the Voyager computer screens.

More about the yields...



This, besides, does not negate the very fact that the gravimetric warhead is incredibly light. We can see that the trek guy is holding a warhead with the tip of his fingers, not even bracing the device against his right thumb, and not even putting a hand underneath it, to gain a better grip.
Above all, he's holding it with arms stretched in front of him.

A 2-3 kg warhead is the utmost acceptable maximum weight estimation for that device. I have all the training bench & muscle stuff at home to make quick empirical tests.
There is just no way the guy could hold a device that way, if it was more than 2-3 kg.

Conveniently, for a gigaton maximum normal yield, we need slightly less than 1 kg of antimatter per module. This is actually a little high for a module that size, considering we usually are thinking of finely divided slush antideuterium, but larger warhead modules are not completely out of the question considering that all the additional non-warhead components seen may be dispensed with for bombardment purposes (i.e., the maximum yield scenario).

Of course, to obtain such a yield, the torpedo would be nothing more than an inert casing, which would need to be propelled by the launch tubes, and never gain any extra acceleration. No shields. No sensors. No guidance systems. Nothing but a shell, filled with warheads.
And in fact, if a warhead contained 1 kg of anti deuterium, its real yield would be of 21.48 megatons (due to more than a half of the energy going off via neutrino waste), assuming a near perfect reaction. So to get a 1 gigaton yield of destructive force, you'd need 46.5 warheads crammed into that torpedo.
I think it will be hard to fit that many inside your typical black UFP shell.

It is quite reasonable, IMO, to suggest that a little under 24 kg of antimatter can be packed into a completely modular torpedo somewhere around the dimensions of 210x76x45 cm.

If you strip many key components, yes. But you "only" have 500 megatons here, not 1000 megatons.
I'd like to see evidence that this "cramming" is even possible.

Besides, do we even have proof that both tanks are filled with antimatter, and not just one?