Status of the Imperial Fleet

[Zardoz]

Hello, I am new to the board, but have read a good deal of the material on boards on both sides and I am wondering what the commonly given explanation is for why the Imperials failed to send ship reinforcements to the Battle of Endor. If SW ships can traverse the entire galaxy in hours, and adjutants (probably) check in with the Emporer's staff every 15 mins or so, they would have realized something was wrong and sent masses of ships to the rescue. The battle slogs on for a considerable time IIRC. I haven't read the movie novelizations; is it addressed there, some new-fangled Rebel device (anti-Interdictor?)?

[Mr. Oragahn]

Possible reasons:

1. Any significant mass of imeprial capital ships which could be considered as having an influence in the battle, were too far.

2. Palpatine considered that his plan was OK, and didn't even plan to make it easier to bring in more ships if things turned out badly... which would not.

3. Possible communications disruptions, but that's relatively absurd.

[CrippledVulture]

I believe, and I'm fairly certain I'm not the only one, that the Imperial fleet is not actually all that large. I will not deny that the Empire could build a massive fleet if they wanted to, but there is simply no reason to do so.

Han refers to "local bulk cruisers" in ANH. Since we know the Empire has political control over the galaxy, it is highly unlikely that they allow their planets to police themselves. This seems to point to a very large fleet of ships with lesser capabilities than Star Destroyers which is spread throughout the galaxy for things like customs and general enforcement.

Logically, this would constitute most of the active ships in the Empire's service. However, in a time of internal strife, you can't exactly call upon these ships for other duties.

That's where "the starfleet" comes in. The Empire keeps a fleet or two of its best ships around for the purpose of attacking Rebel bases (Hoth) or as part of the plan to trap and destroy the Rebel fleet or for any other problem that comes up. As I've said before, if the Rebellion did not exist, this fleet would be much smaller or nonexistent, since there would be no justification for the expense. If the Empire works like every other empire, that is.

In terms of the versus debate, it is clear that the Empire could build and support a much larger fleet than the Federation (although it seems likely that replicators would help to close this gap). However, they would not be equipped for a large scale external war at the outset.

Given the fact that the Emperor orchestrated the entire engagement, and fully intended it to be the end of the Rebellion, and we didn't see any reinforcements, it would seem that the fleet at Endor was "the fleet" or at least most of it.

The Empire's subjects never lacked the ability to throw off the local garrisons and destroy the "bulk cruisers" but they never did so due to their fear of the fleet coming down and punishing them in short order. With that fear gone, they freed themselves from the Empire's local enforcement (or they may have just run off, who knows?). If there were thousands of Star Destroyers remaining in fleets patrolling the galaxy, you simply would not see this happen. The fleet at Endor was the bulk of the Empire's main battle fleet.

[Praeothmin]

I think your argument has some merit, CrippledVulture.

Does the USA patrol its coasts with Destroyers or aircraft carriers?
No.
Does it patrol its streets with Tanks and APCs?
No.

Most of the patrols are done using smaller, less powerful vehicules that are very good to keep the peace, but will not stop a powerful enemy should one attack. In war zones, as we see in Irak and Afghanistan, the warships and war vehicules are deployed, because you need the firepower and the toughness of those vehicules.

So while the Empire does have a greater fleet than the Federation ( since it does have more systems under its rule), it wouldn't be logical to believe that the fleet only consists of ISDs and other warships used for patrol duties.

[CrippledVulture]

This view is also supported by statements made by both Vader and the Emperor in which they indicate that military power is "insignificant" next to the Force. Luke, Leia, Yoda, and Obi-Wan are their concerns, Vader and the Emperor their strength. The rest is only trappings.

I'm not saying they would necessarily deal with the Federation in such a way, but the films are pretty clear on this.

[Mr. Oragahn]

This view is also supported by statements made by both Vader and the Emperor in which they indicate that military power is "insignificant" next to the Force. Luke, Leia, Yoda, and Obi-Wan are their concerns, Vader and the Emperor their strength. The rest is only trappings.

Basing fleet size on that comment is wrong.
Darth Vader also made it clear that the Death Star was insignificant.
If a Death Star can be so easily dismissed against the Force, it raises the bar pretty, gives a lot of leeway and makes it pointless to try to gauge the fleet's size based on that comment.

[CrippledVulture]

A stretch, certainly. Pointless? I don't think so. It shows that the Emperor is not interested in military power for its own sake. Therefore, he's not likely to build much more than he needs.

It's not central to my argument, however. I was merely using it to indicate that the Emperor and his Empire are not concerned with building tons of ships for no reason.

[Mr. Oragahn]

A stretch, certainly. Pointless? I don't think so. It shows that the Emperor is not interested in military power for its own sake. Therefore, he's not likely to build much more than he needs.

It's not central to my argument, however. I was merely using it to indicate that the Emperor and his Empire are not concerned with building tons of ships for no reason.

The comment comes from Vader, not Sidious, and shows nothing. From the moment you consider a battle station of the size of a moon to be insignificant, an equally as big fleet of ships would just as much insignificant.
Which pretty much goes to point out that it can certainly not be used to argue for a few ships composing the starfleet.

Now, I agree on the idea that they would clearly not need a huge amount of star destroyers during a time of relative peace.
However, there are just so many parameters that it's meaningless to try to estimate the starfleet size.

Some would argue, for example, that despite their pointlessness, there would be several more Executor-class destroyers, depending on your take about Solo's comment regarding command ships.

Was he refering to the role of command ship, which coudl apply even to star destroyers?
Was he precisely thinking about Executor-like ships?
Was he just sprouting stuff out of his ass just to confort Luke?

[Jedi Master Spock]

Hello, I am new to the board, but have read a good deal of the material on boards on both sides and I am wondering what the commonly given explanation is for why the Imperials failed to send ship reinforcements to the Battle of Endor. If SW ships can traverse the entire galaxy in hours, and adjutants (probably) check in with the Emporer's staff every 15 mins or so, they would have realized something was wrong and sent masses of ships to the rescue. The battle slogs on for a considerable time IIRC. I haven't read the movie novelizations; is it addressed there, some new-fangled Rebel device (anti-Interdictor?)?

IMO, it can be ascribed to both FTL speeds and Imperial misperception.

You see, right up to the time the Emperor croaked, he thought he was winning, and was giving orders accordingly. Once the Emperor died, there was (a) lots of confusion and (b) not much time before the entire battle ended.

As far as FTL speeds go, most indications suggest that ships were simply too slow to reach the battlefield in time in any case, unless stationed within the sector.

[Mike DiCenso]

Zardoz wrote:
Hello, I am new to the board,

Hi, and welcome!

but have read a good deal of the material on boards on both sides and I am wondering what the commonly given explanation is for why the Imperials failed to send ship reinforcements to the Battle of Endor. If SW ships can traverse the entire galaxy in hours, and adjutants (probably) check in with the Emporer's staff every 15 mins or so, they would have realized something was wrong and sent masses of ships to the rescue.

All of this presupposes that SW ships can actually traverse across the galaxy in a matter of hours. Dispite certain Wars claims, there is a great deal of evidence suggesting far, far slower speeds in both the movies, their novelizations, and the EU.

The battle slogs on for a considerable time IIRC. I haven't read the movie novelizations; is it addressed there, some new-fangled Rebel device (anti-Interdictor?)?

That also presupposes that in the true story of Star Wars, as concieved of and written by George Lucas for the movies, that Interdictor SDs even exist for the Rebels to have to come up with a counter for in the first place. If the Rebels did, then would it not be logical for the New Republic to have such a counter in the Thrawn trilogy, or any of the other EU novels?
-Mike

[2046]

The simplest solution here is simply that Palpatine's plan included the presumption that the Rebel intelligence would be able to provide a good sense of Imperial fleet distribution, minus his little holding force of ISDs and the Executor.

Therefore, *not* having a significant number of ships within rapid-response range would be integral to the plan.

However, such a notion results in the Endor example having nothing to say in regards to ship speeds or counts.

Nevertheless, the Endor example and its background details do speak to a few issues.

For instance, we know that Vader and Palpatine knew of the location of the Rebel fleet at Sullust. If they had realtime updates and could've known when it left, there would've been little need to have the holding force in-system. The holding force could've simply been placed at another location equal in distance to Sullust so that they hyperred in at the right moment. But this didn't happen.

That line of reasoning, taken further, gets into various and sundry speculations, and is somewhat complicated to ponder. Some of the implications for Imperial tech are interesting, but largely unprovable from the example. The only thing we know for sure is that a vessel behind a planet is undetectable to Rebel forces, despite the vessels General Tagge noted as being "excellent" prior to Alderaan.

[Socar]

The only thing we know for sure is that a vessel behind a planet is undetectable to Rebel forces, despite the vessels General Tagge noted as being "excellent" prior to Alderaan.

I always assumed that was due to their sensors being jammed at the time.

[Who is like God arbour]

The battle slogs on for a considerable time IIRC. I haven't read the movie novelizations; is it addressed there, some new-fangled Rebel device (anti-Interdictor?)?

That also presupposes that in the true story of Star Wars, as concieved of and written by George Lucas for the movies, that Interdictor SDs even exist for the Rebels to have to come up with a counter for in the first place. If the Rebels did, then would it not be logical for the New Republic to have such a counter in the Thrawn trilogy, or any of the other EU novels?
-Mike

In my opinion, such Interdictor Star Destroyers - or other ships with similar purposes [1] - are not only not supported by the movie, but almost outright contradicted.

According to the EU, at the time of the Battle of Endor, the Alliance has known, that there are classes of capital ship capable of generating an interdiction field.

But that doesn't fit with the movie.

We could see, that Amdiral Ackbar was informed, that there are enemy ship in Sector 47 at time index 1:31:13 and comes to the conclusion, that's a trap, only three seconds later, at time index 1:31:16.

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If the Alliance would have known about interdiction fields, he - or one of his officers - would have checked, if such an field is activated ot once.

But after the Death Star has fired its first time, he has ordered all craft prepare to retreat - at time index 1:38:00

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If he and his officers aren't incompetent, it was checked, if there is an interdiction field. That he has ordered all craft to prepare to retreat, has to mean, that there is no such field.

Otherwise, Palpatine wanted to destroy the rebels once and for all. For this, he would have to prevent, that they could have escaped with all available means. If he would have had ships, which are able to generate interdictor fields, he would have deployed them.

• If there is a technology, whith which a field can be created, which prevent ships from escaping, one could even assume, that it is installed on the Death Star itself.

The only plausible conclusion seems to me, that there are no such interdiction fields.

[l33telboi]

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Lando seems to need more fiber in his diet.

[mojo]