The validity of Star Wars vs Star Trek in Five Minutes

[Who is like God arbour]

I'm curious what you all think about this link:

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Ess ... nutes.html

I read that ages ago and until I came upon this forum I thought it was pretty definitive. Are there things I'm not seeing that invalidate the conclusions this guy came to? I mean, he makes it seem as if the Federation wouldn't have a chance in hell. To quote:

"In a straight-up fight, the Empire squashes the Federation like a bug. Even with its numerical advantage removed, the Empire would still squash the Federation like a bug. Accept it."

Please bear in mind that that quote isn't from me, so please don't flame me for it. I'm sincerely curious as to your response.

• • in the thread Who wins, which was dead since Feb 14, 2007.
    
    I think, this question deserves its own thread.
    
    
    
    
    P.S. Welcome to the forum, mojo. Am I right to assume, that you are new to the Star Wars versus Star Trek debate?

[l33telboi]

The tech manual entry for the power of phasers is quite interesting. 3.6GW total. That's quite heavily contradicted by even Enterprise era Star Trek, where phase-canons, the predecessor to phasers, where stated to have a maximum yield of 500GJ. Of course they managed to get the figure even higher in Enterprise.

[GStone]

The 5 minutes page is a joke because it uses tons of noncanon as its underlying basis.

[Who is like God arbour]

Please consider, that mojo could be new to the Star Wars versus Star Trek debate and, if that is the case, he wouldn't know much about it.

He mostly wouldn't know all the old arguments, the debaters or other web sides.

An answer should be therefore a little bit more substantiated, it should refer to concrete sources and, if possible, should already comprehensible deal with the most common counter claims.

Try your best, to assure mojo, that >>Star Wars vs Star Trek in Five Minutes<< has no or nearly no validity.

[mojo]

Please consider, that mojo could be new to the Star Wars versus Star Trek debate and, if that is the case, he wouldn't know much about it.

He mostly wouldn't know all the old arguments, the debaters or other web sides.

An answer should be therefore a little bit more substantiated, it should refer to concrete sources and, if possible, should already comprehensible deal with the most common counter claims.

Try your best, to assure mojo, that >>Star Wars vs Star Trek in Five Minutes<< has no or nearly no validity.

Oh, wow. While I couldn't possibly ask anyone to spend that much time on it, I would appreciate it more than I could even say, because while I am very new to the debate, it's very interesting to me. I am a fan of both series, though Star Wars is a little more my speed than Star Trek. I did read the STvsSW in 5 minutes page a long time ago, and gave up the idea of the debate after that because it seemed so conclusive. Also, the wikipedia entry on Star Wars Vs. Star Trek basically states that near the end of the BBS era, most ST enthusiasts gave up the ghost and admitted that in a fight SW would be victorious. After reading both those things I came to the (apparently premature) conclusion that the debate was pointless.
But yes, I am very new to the debate and YES, I would be extremely interested to read anything anyone had to say about that article. He cited sources and all that so I'm afraid I just assumed that what he was saying was accurate. I was so convinced, actually, that I was surprised to find a thread about which side would win.

[mojo]

The 5 minutes page is a joke because it uses tons of noncanon as its underlying basis.

I'm very curious about this because the article states that it only uses two sources: Star Wars Episode II Incredible Cross-Sections (SW2ICS) and the Star Trek Next Generation Technical Manual. This is not me trying to be argumentative, this is me curious. What about these two books do you consider non-canon? The fact that he only used these two sources, both of which would seem to the casual observer (read: me) to be absolutely credible, was the main thing that convinced me he must be right.

[l33telboi]

I'm very curious about this because the article states that it only uses two sources: Star Wars Episode II Incredible Cross-Sections (SW2ICS) and the Star Trek Next Generation Technical Manual. This is not me trying to be argumentative, this is me curious. What about these two books do you consider non-canon?

The tech-manual is considered non-canon by both parties. And i believe that the people responsible for Trek has echoed that sentiment. I'm not really sure why there's so much info from it on that page. I very rarely come across information from it during debates, and when i do, the stuff mentioned is mostly due to idle curiosity. In any case, the last post i made in this thread had me mentioning that even old phase-canons would be far more powerful (according to the actual series) then the tech manual would have us believe. So you can see why assuming it's correct would be a bit flawed.

The ICS is a different matter and not one i care to go into more detail about at the moment.

[Who is like God arbour]

My opinion:

First, you have to differentiate between canon and continuity.

Canon are all sources, which are accepted as sources in this debate.

There are different ranks of canon.

What is accepted and what source has what for rank is highly disputed between some debaters.
If you are interested in more informations about canon, I commend to read the two following sides:

• What is Canon? of StarDestroyer.Net and
• Preface and Canon Policies of ST-v-SW.Net.

I regard this part of the debate for mostly dispensable. The only important question - in my opinion - would be, what has the highest rank in canon. Because - and that is indisputable - lower ranking canon is disqualified, if it is contradicted by higher ranking canon.

That is in my opinion the only real question.

Insofar, I accept all as canon, where Star Wars or Star Trek is printed on.

We all have seen the movies and the television series. These are indisputable the highest ranking canon. All sources, who aren't consistent with these, can't be considered.



For example, there is actually a thread about the ACCLAMATOR - weapons. It was stated in this thread, that there are no weapons to see at the Acclamators in Attack of the Clones.

There are still some disputes going on, if the Acclamator has no weapons at all, or if it has only no heavy turbo lasers.

But there seems to be no question, that the Acclamator has no heay turbo lasers. And exactly that contradict the source, which Wong has refered to, the Star Wars Episode II Incredible Cross-Sections. According to this, the Acclamator should have 12 heavy turbo laser turrets.

Star Wars Episode II Incredible Cross-Sections is as canon approved, but it is contradicted in this point by higher ranking canon, the movie Attack of the Clones.



Another example: Star Wars Episode II Incredible Cross-Sections, to which Wong refers, states a sublight acceleration of 3500 g. Not only that we have never seen a ship in the Star Wars movies acclerate in such a magnitude, in The Empire strikes back, we even could exactly see, how manoeuvrable the capital ships of Star Wars are. My conclusion is, that it is not plausible, that the Acclamarator should have such an high sublight acceleration.

There is nothing in the movies, which would corroborate such values, which the author of Star Wars Episode II Incredible Cross-Sections has come up with just like that.



Another example: The speed of hyperdrive is calculated on the assumtion, that the Star Wars Galaxy is 120'000 lightyears in diameter and that the Empire stretch accross the whole Galaxy.

Often, Han Solos comment in A New Hope, that he have been from one end of this galaxy to the other, is quoted in this context.

But this comment could be treated as exaggeration to impress the "stupid farmboy" like the comment, that the Millennium Falcon has made the Kessel run in less than twelve parsecs, which was seen through at once by Obi Wan as an attempt to impress them with obvious misinformation.

But there are other quotes in the novel, which heavely imply, that the Star Wars Galaxy is not 120'000 lightyears in diameter and that the Empire doesn't stretch across the whole galaxy:

• Tarkin: "Events in this region of the galaxy will no longer be determined by fate, by decree, or by any other agency. They will be decided by this station!" [page 46]
  • Meaning: The sphere of influence of the Death Star is limited to only a region of the galaxy.
  The tridimensional solid screen filled one wall of the vast chamber from floor to ceiling. It showed a million star systems. A tiny portion of the galaxy, but an impressive display nonetheless when exhibited in such a fashion. [page 109]
  • Meaning: Whatever a tiny portion of the galaxy is, it consist of only a million star systems.
  Interestingly, the first use of the most powerful destructive machine ever constructed had seemingly had no influence at all on that map, which in itself represented only a tiny fraction of this section of one modest-sized galaxy.[page 161]
  • Meaning: The Star Wars galaxy is only a modest-sized galaxy.

This was also already debated in the thread The STAR WARS galaxy.

All that shows, that Star Wars Episode II Incredible Cross-Sections is not only not supported by the higher ranking movies and novels, but even outright contradicted.

But regardless, many pro Star Wars debaters refer to it again and again.

[GStone]

The 5 minutes page is a joke because it uses tons of noncanon as its underlying basis.

I'm very curious about this because the article states that it only uses two sources: Star Wars Episode II Incredible Cross-Sections (SW2ICS) and the Star Trek Next Generation Technical Manual. This is not me trying to be argumentative, this is me curious. What about these two books do you consider non-canon? The fact that he only used these two sources, both of which would seem to the casual observer (read: me) to be absolutely credible, was the main thing that convinced me he must be right.

For more elaboration, another reason why I think it's a joke is the preferance he uses. The highest reasonably (and often unreasonably) for Wars, while the barest minimum (and often less than) for Trek. The tools he's used, like the asteroid clculator, are bad. The calculator use solid metal for calculations when asteroids are nothing more than loose clumps of dirt.

[Mike DiCenso]

The 5 minutes page is a joke because it uses tons of noncanon as its underlying basis.

I'm very curious about this because the article states that it only uses two sources: Star Wars Episode II Incredible Cross-Sections (SW2ICS) and the Star Trek Next Generation Technical Manual. This is not me trying to be argumentative, this is me curious. What about these two books do you consider non-canon? The fact that he only used these two sources, both of which would seem to the casual observer (read: me) to be absolutely credible, was the main thing that convinced me he must be right.

A very vaild question in the context that you put it, Mojo. However, if you dig quite a bit deeper, you'll find that much of the information presented in Wong's "5 minutes" page is often contradicted by the higher canon of the ST and SW movies, as well as the ST television series. To go into the issues would require at least a major essay or two in and of itself. Many of those contradictions are dealt with here on the SFJ forum, but here are some samples of those contradictions:


1.) Phasers: The often over-quoted 1.02 gigawatt phaser array firepower is derived from the TNG TM stating that each element of the array can output 5.1 megawatts. It is further stated that the main dorsal saucer array of a Galaxy class starship has some 200 of these arrays. Thus 200 x 5.1 = 1,020 MW, or 1.02 GW. However, an examination of the shooting models used in TNG and Generations shows, the E-D arrays are made of considerably more than a mere 200 elements:

http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSW102.html

There are at least around 950 elements in each array, thus the E-D main saucer array has an output of 4.85 GW.... almost half again what Wong calculates for all possible emitters from all of the ship's arrays!

If that is not enough, TNG itself contradicts these numbers at least twice in "Who Watches the Watchers" [TNG3] as well as "A Matter of Time" [TNG5] where we learn that a small phaser bank requires 4.2 GW to power it, and a small variance in the output of the second largest phaser array on the E-D is 0.06 terawatts (60 GW).


Photon torpedoes: Wong provides (as usual) incorrect information on Trek photon torpedoes, even when attempting to describe the canon. For example:


"Asteroid destruction: according to Riker, it would take the entire photon torpedo payload to destroy a single 5km wide hollow asteroid in "Pegasus". In other words, it would take the entire payload of the Enterprise-D (a capital warship with a crew of a thousand) to equal just one of Jango Fett's seismic charges (a bounty hunter's weapon)".

However, the asteroid from "The Pegasus", is not a mere 5 km (a number Wong pulled out of nowhere, but stuck with it, and incorrectly states the quantity of torpedoes to destroy said asteroid to boot. Riker's says this to Admiral Pressman at one point:

"I recommend we destroy the
asteroid. It would take most
of our photon torpedoes, but it
would preclude any possibility of
the Pegasus falling into Romulan
hands."

I suspect that Wong in his atypical "lazy man" approach to researching things Trek, he looked at a script online somewhere that had a slightly different wording or something. What does "most of" mean to you? How many torpedoes does the E-D have? According to the TNG TM, the E-D has 275 torpedoes, however in "Conundrum" [TNG5], the ship carries a loadout of 250. How much is "most of" that?
At any rate, the asteroid in question is much bigger than a mere 5 km, even by some pro-Wars estimates which place it around 8.5 km. A quick comparison between a 1 km wide Romulan warbird and the asteroid shows that 5-8 km would be a lower limit!

http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/display ... 63&pos=127


Also, dialog in the episode states that the asteroid is not hollow, but merely has "several fissures" of a volcanic nature running though it, and those fissures are shown to make up only a relatively small fraction of the asteroid's overall volume.


Hyperspace: Wong claims that hyperspace travel across the entire SW galaxy takes only hours. He cites Amidala's "halfway across the galaxy" statement as proof of this, however as is atypical for him, he takes the quote out of it's context by failing to mention that Amidala in the same scene states that Tatooine and Geonosis are only "less than a parsec" apart from one another (the first reasonably clear distance given between two systems in SW). Further examinations have shown that Amidala's yacht at best traversed that distance in a matter of hours, and likely could have taken a day based on the parallel events on Courscant concerning the critical Senatorial vote to give Chancellor Palpatine emergency powers. More on this subject can be found here:

http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWaotcparsec.html

So you see, Mojo, don't just go for one or two person's surface impressions about this debate. There's a lot more to it than you might think.
-Mike

[Jedi Master Spock]

What about these two books do you consider non-canon? The fact that he only used these two sources, both of which would seem to the casual observer (read: me) to be absolutely credible, was the main thing that convinced me he must be right.

Personally, I prefer not to talk about whether or not the books are non-canon. The simple fact is that both of those "technical" books, although they may seem persuasively detailed, happen to fit quite poorly in many ways with all the other sources.

Frankly, I believe any "expert" on Trek/Wars could construct a fairly convincing argument for a casual observer to draw almost any conclusion - ranging from lopsided military matches to ethical superiority - by using sources selectively. The AOTC:ICS and TNG:TM just happen to give the highest and lowest explicit firepower figures for Star Wars and Star Trek, respectively.

My opinion of the "five minutes" page is that it is a reasonably well constructed sales pitch. That, I am afraid, is all it is.

[Socar]

My opinion of the "five minutes" page is that it is a reasonably well constructed sales pitch. That, I am afraid, is all it is.

I'm pretty sure that was all it was intended to be. Just something to convince the casual observer. After all, Mike even says on the main page that it's for people who don't have the patience for reading the rest of the website.

[Who is like God arbour]

In addition to Mike DiCenso's good account on the asteroid of the The Pegasus episode:

Mr. Data has recommend against the plan to send a shuttle down through one of the fissures of the asteroid to the Pegasus. He said, that there may be gravimetric or magnetic fluctuations inside the asteroid which would overpower the engines on a shuttlecraft [1]. But no common asteroid of this size should have gravimetric or magnetic fluctuations inside, which could overpower the engines on a shuttlecraft, which is able to fly in the corona of a sun [2]. That a shuttle is able to do the latter shows, that it has strong enough enginges.

You have to decide, what you think, is more plausible for you.

• Some pro Wars debater would argue, that this shows, how weak the enginges of a shuttle are. They aren't even able to overcome the little gravimetric or magnetic fluctuations, such a common asteroid could cause.
  • But they ignore - in my opinion - the fact, that the shuttle was able to fly in the corona of a sun, which usually would have far more gravimetric or magnetic fluctuations than a common asteroid.
• Some pro Wars debater would say, that Data apparently was wrong and it is impossible, that this asteroid could be a menace for a shuttle.
  • But that would mean, that not only Data was wrong, but the whole crew on the bridge because nobody has corrected Data. But is it plausile, that a crew of Starfleet officers on a Starfleet Flagship is so ignorant and stupid? What would that say about Starfleet?
    What would that say about all their enemies, they have outsmarted?
    Would that mean, that the whole Star Trek Milky Way consist of moronic peoples?
    And how is that consistent to the fact, that they are able to build, attend and maintain such star ships?
• The third - but sure not the last - alternative could be, that there was something peculiar with this asteroid, which was established off-screen.
  • Something, which could easily explain, how such asteroid potentially could cause gravimetric or magnetic fluctuations, which could overpower the enginges of a shuttle.
    Something, which is enough, to cause the phase cloack to fail, while nothing in the phased ship should interact with normal matter.
    Something, what could explain, why they would need most of their photon torpedoes to destroy the asteroid, although they were already able to destroy other asteroids without such problems [3].

The same apllies to Rikers somment, that they would need most of their photon torpedoes to destroy the asteroid.

• Some pro Star Wars debater would argue, that this shows, how weak the photon torpedoes are, that they even aren't able to destroy a common asteroid.
  • But they ignore - in my opinion - the fact, that we have seen, that a photon torpedos are thoght to be able to destroy common asteroids [3]. And they would have to be absurdly weak, if most of the payload of photon torpedos of the Enterprise wouldn't be able to destroy this asteroid.
• Some debater would say, that Riker apparently was wrong, because they should be able to at least shatter this asteroid with ease.
  • But that would mean, that not only Riker was wrong, but the whole crew on the bridge because nobody has corrected Riker. But is it plausile, that a crew of Starfleet officers on a Starfleet Flagship is so ignorant and stupid? What would that say about Starfleet?
    What would that say about all their enemies, they have outsmarted?
    Would that mean, that the whole Star Trek Milky Way consist of moronic peoples?
    And how is that consistent to the fact, that they are able to build, attend and maintain such star ships?
• The third - but sure not the last - alternative could be, that there was something peculiar with this asteroid, which was established off-screen.
  • Something, which could easily explain, how such asteroid potentially could cause gravimetric or magnetic fluctuations, which could overpower the enginges of a shuttle.
    Something, which is enough, to cause the phase cloack to fail, while nothing in the phased ship should interact with normal matter.
    Something, what could explain, why they would need most of their photon torpedoes to destroy the asteroid, although they were already able to destroy other asteroids without such problems [3].

I can't dictate, what you have to think. You have to decide, what you think, is more plausible.
But please let me know your decision and your reasons.

Another aspect is, that we don't know, what Riker has meant. There would be more energy necessary, if he would have wanted to vaporize the whole asteroid and with it, the Pegasus, as would be necessary, if he only would have wanted to shatter it.

[mojo]

The 5 minutes page is a joke because it uses tons of noncanon as its underlying basis.

I'm very curious about this because the article states that it only uses two sources: Star Wars Episode II Incredible Cross-Sections (SW2ICS) and the Star Trek Next Generation Technical Manual. This is not me trying to be argumentative, this is me curious. What about these two books do you consider non-canon? The fact that he only used these two sources, both of which would seem to the casual observer (read: me) to be absolutely credible, was the main thing that convinced me he must be right.

A very vaild question in the context that you put it, Mojo. However, if you dig quite a bit deeper, you'll find that much of the information presented in Wong's "5 minutes" page is often contradicted by the higher canon of the ST and SW movies, as well as the ST television series. To go into the issues would require at least a major essay or two in and of itself. Many of those contradictions are dealt with here on the SFJ forum, but here are some samples of those contradictions:


1.) Phasers: The often over-quoted 1.02 gigawatt phaser array firepower is derived from the TNG TM stating that each element of the array can output 5.1 megawatts. It is further stated that the main dorsal saucer array of a Galaxy class starship has some 200 of these arrays. Thus 200 x 5.1 = 1,020 MW, or 1.02 GW. However, an examination of the shooting models used in TNG and Generations shows, the E-D arrays are made of considerably more than a mere 200 elements:

http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSW102.html

There are at least around 950 elements in each array, thus the E-D main saucer array has an output of 4.85 GW.... almost half again what Wong calculates for all possible emitters from all of the ship's arrays!

If that is not enough, TNG itself contradicts these numbers at least twice in "Who Watches the Watchers" [TNG3] as well as "A Matter of Time" [TNG5] where we learn that a small phaser bank requires 4.2 GW to power it, and a small variance in the output of the second largest phaser array on the E-D is 0.06 terawatts (60 GW).


Photon torpedoes: Wong provides (as usual) incorrect information on Trek photon torpedoes, even when attempting to describe the canon. For example:


"Asteroid destruction: according to Riker, it would take the entire photon torpedo payload to destroy a single 5km wide hollow asteroid in "Pegasus". In other words, it would take the entire payload of the Enterprise-D (a capital warship with a crew of a thousand) to equal just one of Jango Fett's seismic charges (a bounty hunter's weapon)".

However, the asteroid from "The Pegasus", is not a mere 5 km (a number Wong pulled out of nowhere, but stuck with it, and incorrectly states the quantity of torpedoes to destroy said asteroid to boot. Riker's says this to Admiral Pressman at one point:

"I recommend we destroy the
asteroid. It would take most
of our photon torpedoes, but it
would preclude any possibility of
the Pegasus falling into Romulan
hands."

I suspect that Wong in his atypical "lazy man" approach to researching things Trek, he looked at a script online somewhere that had a slightly different wording or something. What does "most of" mean to you? How many torpedoes does the E-D have? According to the TNG TM, the E-D has 275 torpedoes, however in "Conundrum" [TNG5], the ship carries a loadout of 250. How much is "most of" that?
At any rate, the asteroid in question is much bigger than a mere 5 km, even by some pro-Wars estimates which place it around 8.5 km. A quick comparison between a 1 km wide Romulan warbird and the asteroid shows that 5-8 km would be a lower limit!

http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/display ... 63&pos=127


Also, dialog in the episode states that the asteroid is not hollow, but merely has "several fissures" of a volcanic nature running though it, and those fissures are shown to make up only a relatively small fraction of the asteroid's overall volume.


Hyperspace: Wong claims that hyperspace travel across the entire SW galaxy takes only hours. He cites Amidala's "halfway across the galaxy" statement as proof of this, however as is atypical for him, he takes the quote out of it's context by failing to mention that Amidala in the same scene states that Tatooine and Geonosis are only "less than a parsec" apart from one another (the first reasonably clear distance given between two systems in SW). Further examinations have shown that Amidala's yacht at best traversed that distance in a matter of hours, and likely could have taken a day based on the parallel events on Courscant concerning the critical Senatorial vote to give Chancellor Palpatine emergency powers. More on this subject can be found here:

http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWaotcparsec.html

So you see, Mojo, don't just go for one or two person's surface impressions about this debate. There's a lot more to it than you might think.
-Mike

Alright, but even if the rock is bigger than the guy stated, and wasn't hollow, and would only use up most of the torpedoes, isn't that still a massive, massive difference in firepower? Maybe I'm reading wrong here, but doesn't that still mean that a single mine that Jango Fett is cruising around the galaxy with in his trunk has the same destructive capacity as almost the entire payload of a Federation starship? It still reads as if old Jango could probably take on an entire fleet of Federation ships by himself and have a good shot at winning! And if a single bounty hunter's ship is that powerful in comparison to a Federation ship, how much more powerful must a fleet of Empire ships be than a fleet of Federation ships? It seems almost as if you're arguing for SW superiority.
Again, please don't take offense. I know virtually nothing except what I've seen on the screen.[/i]

[Who is like God arbour]

I don't think, that the Seismic charge is a good example to be consulted in an comparison between the Power of Star Wars and Star Trek ships.

Wong states, that Jango Fett's seismic charges destroyed asteroids in a radius of 5-10 km.

1. I would like to see, how he comes to these 5-10 km.
2. I would like to see, what is the result of his analysis of this scene regarding the mode of operation of the observed shock wave, a shock wave in vakuum to boot. I would like to see, how much energy really would be necessary to create such a shock wave and how much energy would be necessary to shatter these asteoids.
3. I'm no physicist, but I would like to know, why we can't assume, that this seismic charges could cause an effect similiar to the braking of class via sound [1]. I know, there is no sound in vakuum, that's why I have said, a similiar effect. Something, which cause the rocks to vibrate in their natural resonance so much, that they are broken.
4. That weren't merely asteroids. That were the rings of a planet. We don't really know much about the rings around Geonosis. But the rings around Saturn are composed of silica rock, iron oxide, and ice particles ranging in size from specks of dust to the size of a small automobile [2]. That wouldn't be especially difficult to destroy.
   And we could see, that they weren't vaporized, but merely shattered. As I have said already, for this, there isn't so much energy necessary, as for vaporization.

With the informations given by the movie, are you able to conclude, what such a seismic charge can do to a Star Trek ship? Could it be, that such a shock wave wouldn't do anything to a shielded or unshielded Star Trek ship?



Maybe you should also see the TNG episode Booby Trap. At the end of the episode, we see the Enterprise destroy - at least - a huge part of an asteroid field.
The script describe the szene as follows:

• • FIRING a spread of torpedoes that explodes at the
    ancient vessel... and the entire area goes white with
    the explosive force obliterating the entire asteroid
    field.