Wolf 359 fleet vs. Endor Fleet

[sonofccn]

They were 100 years behind even ST tech, and they were not maneuvering at all, Ties can swing from side to side easily as seen when chasing X-Wings.

Which puts them on par with what a Tie is. An unshielded shuttlepod with tinker toy guns. Ties also can hang like a brick while trying to evade a following frieghtor. Plus you saw how many beams, and how fast those beams were, human pilots couldn't effectivly dodge them.

Oh and SW modified freighters can pick off droids on the hull of a ship 60km away with turbo lasers.

Except they were trying to shoot the ship and missing horribly. The Droids were an unexpected side effect.

All this is getting away from the fact that 39 fed ships don't stand a chance in hell against an imperial fleet containing star destroyers, even if they don't launch fighters they are just going to be turned into scrap by tl fire, while their petty weapons fail to enetrate the armour.

Why wouldn't the fed ship's weapons penetrate the armour?

[Darth Tanner]

Which puts them on par with what a Tie is. An unshielded shuttlepod with tinker toy guns. Ties also can hang like a brick while trying to evade a following frieghtor. Plus you saw how many beams, and how fast those beams were, human pilots couldn't effectivly dodge them.

errr no, so a bi-plane is identical to a F22 becaue they are the both fighters. Why cant pilots dodge beams, ST crews in much bigger slower and less agile ships can dodge ST weapons and SW dog fights have pilots dodging fire.

Except they were trying to shoot the ship and missing horribly. The Droids were an unexpected side effect.

So they were initially aiming for the ship, knocked out its shields, then due to incompetance started picking off the droids repairing the shields while avoiding further damaging the hull which would kill the Queen.

Indeed

[sonofccn]

errr no, so a bi-plane is identical to a F22 becaue they are the both fighters.

Not at all. However if you build a prop fighter with double wings armed only with fifty caliber machineguns Then I could compare it to a WWI fighter regardless of the time you built it. An Imperial Tie posses about the technological firepower and surviability of a shuttlepod from Archer's day.

Why cant pilots dodge beams, ST crews in much bigger slower and less agile ships can dodge ST weapon

Differnt type of fire against those bigger and less agile ships.

SW dog fights have pilots dodging fire.

Not like anything resembling Conudrum that I've seen.

So they were initially aiming for the ship, knocked out its shields, then due to incompetance started picking off the droids repairing the shields while avoiding further damaging the hull which would kill the Queen.

No, they fired wildly in the general direction of the vessel, with some of the rounds impacting the shield which eventually gave out. Some rounds skimmed the hull and hit the droids, while others flew around in the background completly avoiding the enemy ship.

Also if you have the freaking accuracy to shoot droids off, you have the accuracy to cripple a starship by blasting it's engines and boarding it.

[Darth Tanner]

Not at all. However if you build a prop fighter with double wings armed only with fifty caliber machineguns Then I could compare it to a WWI fighter regardless of the time you built it. An Imperial Tie posses about the technological firepower and surviability of a shuttlepod from Archer's day.

So Ties only have weaons from a society 100 years behind ST now!

Differnt type of fire against those bigger and less agile ships.

Fed ships dont have differnt types of weapons for anti fighter duty.

Also if you have the freaking accuracy to shoot droids off, you have the accuracy to cripple a starship by blasting it's engines and boarding it.

Not when the engines are at the back of a ship, and they did do a good job a crippling the hyperdrive, just not good enough

[sonofccn]

So Ties only have weaons from a society 100 years behind ST now!

I wouldn't say "now!". I've said Tie's have puny underpowered guns. I compared it to a shuttlepod because those are shieldless, underpowered crafts as well.

fed ships dont have differnt types of weapons for anti fighter duty.

Same emiters, employed differntly, as you remarked fed ships don't usally fire that many beams at once against cap ships.

Not when the engines are at the back of a ship

IF, and I stress IF, they could hit a droid on a starship then yes they could calucalte the proper angle and everything needed to finished off the sublight. It would have been more useful then blasting droids.

and they did do a good job a crippling the hyperdrive, just not good enough

They damaged the hyperdrive, it was still working enough to allow them to escape. Hardly the time to start wasting ammo shooting droids.

[Jedi Master Spock]

I'm not saying that ST ships miss 100%, that would be silly.

Also in that scene the Ent is going to warp, not accelerating on impulse.

Exactly. Tactical warp is tricky. (We do, of course, have similarly high impulse accelerations from BoBW and TMP.)

As for your acceleration claims can you actually show any evidence of warp being used in battle? other than firing torps when fleeings.

Tactical warp plays not only in STV's narrow escape from the Klingon torpedo, but in more detail in "Elaan of Troyius," "Balance of Terror," and "The Battle," among others, if I am recalling my episodes correctly.

[Darth Tanner]

I wouldn't say "now!". I've said Tie's have puny underpowered guns. I compared it to a shuttlepod because those are shieldless, underpowered crafts as well.

What basis do you have for that claim?

IF, and I stress IF, they could hit a droid on a starship then yes they could calucalte the proper angle and everything needed to finished off the sublight. It would have been more useful then blasting droids.

If the attacking ship is in the FRONT and the engines are at the BACK, how are you going to fire at them while avoiding killing the queen? by the time the nabboo transport was crossing the trade fed ships axis and presenting its engines its shields were back up.

They damaged the hyperdrive, it was still working enough to allow them to escape. Hardly the time to start wasting ammo shooting droids.

Escape to only a few systems away, all systems in range but tattooine were Trade Fed controlled

[Darth Tanner]

Tactical warp also plays in "Elaan of Troyius," "Balance of Terror," and "The Battle," among others, if I am recalling my episodes correctly.

BoT - A duel in Kirk Trek where one ship didnt even have faster than light ability.

The Battle - true, still a duel though and also a one off tactical idea from Picard

Elaan of Troyius - I'm afrain I havn't seen this one but Memory alpha dosnt say anything about warp battles, other than a bomb stoing them going to warp.

[sonofccn]

What basis do you have for that claim?

It's combat performance against every known object, it's predacasors performacne in atmosphere in TPM. Nowhere has the Tie shown high firepower that I'm aware of.

If the attacking ship is in the FRONT and the engines are at the BACK, how are you going to fire at them while avoiding killing the queen?

Go up,fire down, go down, fire up. Go left fire right, go right fire left. I mean these guys would have increadilbe acuracy if they can knock a meter tall object off of a starship at 60 km.

Escape to only a few systems away, all systems in range but tattooine were Trade Fed controlled

Which still allowed them to escape and repair thier vessel, so in the final anaylise thier drive wasn't crippled, nor were the Trade Federation effective in damaging it.

[Jedi Master Spock]

Tactical warp also plays in "Elaan of Troyius," "Balance of Terror," and "The Battle," among others, if I am recalling my episodes correctly.

BoT - A duel in Kirk Trek where one ship didnt even have faster than light ability.

In "Balance of Terror," Kirk went to warp to try and evade a Romulan missile.

Which continued to chase them. At warp speed. The evidence strongly suggests that the Romulans did, in fact, have FTL capability, for their weapons as well as their ship; their having "only impulse power" suggests that they were running on fusion, rather than M/AM engines. Impulse in TOS often broke lightspeed, impulse "power" did not necessarily refer to impulse drive, and the Romulans' actions required FTL.

The Battle - true, still a duel though and also a one off tactical idea from Picard

A maneuver he had used before and which had since gone into the tactical handbooks.

I may, however, now remember the episode name for "Peak Performance," a tactical exercise in which Riker makes use of a brief warp burst powered by the antimatter for one of Wesley Crusher's science experiments.

Elaan of Troyius - I'm afrain I havn't seen this one but Memory alpha dosnt say anything about warp battles, other than a bomb stoing them going to warp.

The Enterprise, with warp power disabled, gets the stuffing pounded out of them by a warping Klingon battlecruiser. After restoring warp power, they use it suddenly to whack the Klingons but good.

[Darth Tanner]

It's combat performance against every known object, it's predacasors performacne in atmosphere in TPM. Nowhere has the Tie shown high firepower that I'm aware of.

I still dont see your point
Ties are designed for anti starfighter work, I'm not expecting them to single handedly destroy the Fed fleet, a star destryoer can do that while they distract them,

Again in ANH a TIE can destroy a heavily shielded X wing in a few shots

Go up,fire down, go down, fire up. Go left fire right, go right fire left. I mean these guys would have increadilbe acuracy if they can knock a meter tall object off of a starship at 60 km.

You seem to have strange ideas about the agility of massive battle ships.

[sonofccn]

I still dont see your point

That a Tie fighter is about as dangerous as a shuttle.

Ties are designed for anti starfighter work, I'm not expecting them to single handedly destroy the Fed fleet, a star destryoer can do that while they distract them

Which is about all a Tie could expect to do. Distract the fleet for a few minutes while they pause and wipe them out.

You seem to have strange ideas about the agility of massive battle ships.

So in a blockcade of starships not one can manuver itself so that it has a meter sized target of the sublight drive?

Again in ANH a TIE can destroy a heavily shielded X wing in a few shots

Bypass/overwhelm the shields. It still takes a direct hit on an X-wing engines to destroy the craft, otherwise it is damaged, but still working.

[Darth Tanner]

That a Tie fighter is about as dangerous as a shuttle.

Well it is what the fed would call a shuttle, just with better weapons and much faster & more agile.

The Fed sent run abouts into fight the Jem with the odyssey remember

Which is about all a Tie could expect to do. Distract the fleet for a few minutes while they pause and wipe them out.

Oh please, fed ships have not displayed anywhere near the rate of fire needed to just wipe them out, and that is if they could hit them in the first place. The time the Ent D engaged those primitive assault shuttles they only had a few to fight, and they approached on a straight course.

Bypass/overwhelm the shields. It still takes a direct hit on an X-wing engines to destroy the craft, otherwise it is damaged, but still working.

So you agree that a couple of Tie laser shots can destroy a fully shielded X wing, good.

[sonofccn]

Well it is what the fed would call a shuttle, just with better weapons and much faster & more agile.

Except it doesn't have better weapons, shuttles atleast have phasers, nor is does it posses a great speed advantage, it might be more manuvable.

The Fed sent run abouts into fight the Jem with the odyssey remember

Which are more like like fighters then shuttles. In IIRC "treachery, faith and the great river" a runabout survived low grade capitol ship fire. These things are nothing to sneeze at.

Oh please, fed ships have not displayed anywhere near the rate of fire needed to just wipe them out

Dragon teeth[voyager] conudrom[TNG] both show high accuracy and fire rate against small inferior targets.

The time the Ent D engaged those primitive assault shuttles they only had a few to fight, and they approached on a straight course.

Which is what Ties do half the time anyway. remember they were wiped out in a couple of seconds and there was like six of them. Do the math. At six every four seconds how long would your average fighter squadron remain in exsistence?

So you agree that a couple of Tie laser shots can destroy a fully shielded X wing, good.

No, a few shots can get passed the shields. It still requires a direct hit on the engines of an X-wing to destroy it outright. The bolt itself only has enough power to badly damage a droid.

[Darth Tanner]

Except it doesn't have better weapons, shuttles atleast have phasers, nor is does it posses a great speed advantage, it might be more manuvable.

Ties lasers are better than shuttle phasers. I dont know what speeds shuttles are capable of but I see no reason why they should be able to out run actual fighters.

Dragon teeth[voyager] conudrom[TNG] both show high accuracy and fire rate against small inferior targets.

Againa against larger, massively less advanced ships, some that had been in storgae for hundreds of years.

Which is what Ties do half the time anyway. remember they were wiped out in a couple of seconds and there was like six of them. Do the math. At six every four seconds how long would your average fighter squadron remain in exsistence?

long enough to distract the fed fleet enough for it to be annhilated by the Star destroyers