Wolf 359 fleet vs. Endor Fleet

sonofccn · Post by **sonofccn** » Sun Nov 05, 2006 11:58 pm

Darth Tanner wrote:ST ships often have difficulty hitting big ships at point blank range, I can imagine them having much more trouble hitting tiny one man fighters.

Again Conudrum[TNG], okay they were bigger then Ties I admit, but not that much bigger, and they manuvered about as much as ties manuver.

Also your forgetting jamming, the Empire has demonstrated the ability to block communication and targeting (Death Star run) The Fed as far as i can tell has no experience with this.

Well the Deathstar is the highend example.In the Wounded the cardasions employed ECM and they were stilled nailed thousands of Kilometers away.

We have not seen such fleet engagements where a ship rapid fires in the way you describe. In Sacrifice of Angels the fleets were barely shooting at each other.

Against a cap ship a "anti-fighter" beam would be useless so yeah they fire fewer more heavier rounds. I never said these beams were at full strenght.

The Empire is used to dealing with fighter armed opponents so out of the 72 fighters a SD carries, 60 of them are fighters for that purpose.

So the bulk of the fighters would be Ties, not bombers.

Ties are not a real threat to SW ships, but to ST ships they could do a lot of damage is the shields were knocked out by the Star Deestroyers first.

Maybe a little, ST ships don't have bulky external parts to shoot and disable. Like shield/sensor globes. However that make fighter irrevent to the opening battle since you have to wait for a ship to be battered down by Tubolaser fire.

Darth Tanner · Post by **Darth Tanner** » Mon Nov 06, 2006 12:05 am

Throughout all of Star Trek (except Kirk Trek & Archer Trek which I havn't really watched) all ships miss quite often, the Dominion war is quite a good example, the Defiant misses a lot, despite being right on enemy craft.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRm0RfUGkS4 offers some examples

Again I'm afrain I can't speak for Kirk trek but throughout TNG onwards jamming dosn't appear to be used.

Ties are able to destory heavily shielded X-wings in a couple of shots, although we never see them hitting bigger targets to make a judgement we see X wings rake the Death Star surface with some success and they have similar weapons output (well probably half) as far as I can tell.

"Those bombs they were dropping were doing absolutly no damage to the asteroid what so ever, so they must be either EM or sensor related."

EU has bombers destroying cities.

Post by **Mike DiCenso** » Mon Nov 06, 2006 12:08 am

Darth Tanner wrote:
So the Borg set their weapons to tin shack mode to save the live of the humans on the planet? Indeed.

Actually, you should be refering to that as "bunker buster" mode. Also again don't forget the Borg goal: assimilation. You cannot necessarily assimilate and add to your perfection the vaporized, now can you?

Darth Tanner wrote:
The Dominion war scenes were against fleets, the defiant was simly part of a wall that was moving through the Dominion wall to get to DS9, the klingons were not part of the wall but came at them from a flank.

Again starships maneuvering in battle:

http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/display ... =63&pos=91

Whatever the fleets as a whole did, the starships individually showed few problems with maneuvering about. Also the Klingon fleet's flanking from "above" is an excellent example of manuevering in and of itself.

Darth Tanner wrote:
Also both Borg battles were against single ships, forming a wall would not do them much good, also we don't see much of either , only the debris of the first and a brief glance of the second after the Fed fleet has been shattered.

Wrong again. Please note the citations more closely. The Wolf-359 battle as recalled in DS9's "Emissary":

http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/display ... um=1&pos=7

http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/display ... um=1&pos=9

http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/display ... m=1&pos=13

http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/display ... m=1&pos=43

So yes, we did see the battle.
-Mike

Darth Tanner · Post by **Darth Tanner** » Mon Nov 06, 2006 12:18 am

The only scene of ground impact is that of a tin shack blowing up.

Also there was very little actual damage to the missile launch facility, only the control panels and the radiation thing were damaged, must be using Fed computer screen technology (-;
Why would the Borg want to assimilate everybody, they dont seem to care about individual drones.
I'm sorry I just hate the way Voyager turned the Borg into space zombies rather than technological terrors.

About Worf 359 I'm sorry, I always thought these isolated scenes were the aftermath as we see only a few ships making small runs after the main attack was halted.

Post by **Mike DiCenso** » Mon Nov 06, 2006 12:34 am

Darth Tanner wrote:Throughout all of Star Trek (except Kirk Trek & Archer Trek which I havn't really watched) all ships miss quite often, the Dominion war is quite a good example, the Defiant misses a lot, despite being right on enemy craft.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRm0RfUGkS4 offers some examples

Post by **Mike DiCenso** » Mon Nov 06, 2006 12:50 am

Darth Tanner wrote:
The only scene of ground impact is that of a tin shack blowing up.

Screencap? Here look at this:

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/disp ... 120&pos=21

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/disp ... 120&pos=22

Plenty of hits shown, and not all of them were to "tin shacks".

Darth Tanner wrote:
Also there was very little actual damage to the missile launch facility, only the control panels and the radiation thing were damaged, must be using Fed computer screen technology (-;

Not quite so:

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/disp ... =121&pos=6

There's a substantial amount of structral wreakage there besides a few broken control panels.

Why would the Borg want to assimilate everybody, they dont seem to care about individual drones.

They didn't. Or did you think they planned to assimilate the dead Phoenix launch crew? At the same time why would they turn megaton or gigaton yeild weapons onto the Earth to kill off whole populations they want to assimilate?

About Worf 359 I'm sorry, I always thought these isolated scenes were the aftermath as we see only a few ships making small runs after the main attack was halted.

Proof, please? From the Saratoga crew watching Locutus/Picard on the viewscreen onward, it is clear that what we were seeing was the opening of the battle. Locutus addressing the fleet and ordering them to stand down their defenses:

http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/display ... um=1&pos=0

The dialog:

PICARD/LOCUTUS
You will be assimilated.
Resistance is futile.

PICARD/LOCUTUS
You will disarm all weapons and escort
us to sector zero zero one.

If you attempt to intervene, we will destroy you.

SISKO
Sir, Admiral Hanson has deployed the
Gage, the Kyushu and the Melbourne...

As you can see, it was the battle's begining, not it's end.
-Mike

Post by **Jedi Master Spock** » Mon Nov 06, 2006 1:53 am

There's also a lovely page here resulting from the author of ST-v-SW.net painstakingly counting all the shots seen fired in Nemesis.

The basic summary is that while firing at the Scimitar, which maintained cloak during the battle, which was at knife-range for starships, the Enterprise and Valdore averaged about 60% accuracy. For the Scimitar, which was not firing at cloaked targets, we see roughly 90% accuracy in the VFX.

(A project for anyone with too much time on hand: Do the same thing for more battles and report back your results.)

I'm not aware of anyone counting all the misses and hits in any of the Star Wars battles.

Post by **Jedi Master Spock** » Mon Nov 06, 2006 2:10 am

Darth Tanner wrote:Throughout all of Star Trek (except Kirk Trek & Archer Trek which I havn't really watched) all ships miss quite often, the Dominion war is quite a good example, the Defiant misses a lot, despite being right on enemy craft.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRm0RfUGkS4 offers some examples

That clip is... very interesting.

Pay attention, would you, to the second "miss" on that video? You see the Enterprise NCC-1701-A blur forwards. This is demonstrating not a failure of targeting, but a very nimble dodge by the maneuverable Constitution class. I'll post screencaps in a minute, I believe it comes from STV.

In a fraction of a second, the E-A goes from a crawl to leaping forward, displacing its own length forward in a fraction of a second to evade the torpedo. This, ladies and gentlemen, is a demonstration of combat maneuverability - a quick and easy to miss dodge providing on the order of hundred-gravity unexpected acceleration on demand.

Second, pay close attention to the end of each sequence. It's hard to find much time in which hits aren't happening, and many - e.g., the one of Klaa shooting at and narrowly missing the probe - occur right after the clip ends.

Post by **Jedi Master Spock** » Mon Nov 06, 2006 2:41 am

OK, I'll pop in some screencaps later, seeing as I have some other stuff to get done tonight, but the summary is this.

It is from STV, as I expected. It's from Klaa's initial encounter with the Enterprise, and you may find the shot at 50:30ish.

The Enterprise starts altering course a little bit roughly ten frames before the torpedo would have hit. About four frames into the slow turn, the Enterprise starts blurring. The torpedo crosses its path six frames after the "blur" effect kicks in; five frames after the blur starts, the Enterprise has altered its projected position by roughly its own length from where we would have expected before the blur starts. EAS gives the Constitution refit as being 305m.

Displacing unexpectedly by 305m in 1/6th of a second (five frames) may be computed for a constant acceleration by noting d=at^2/2, ergo a=2*d/t^2=22 km/s^2. Tactical acceleration. 1 km/s ~ 100g, so call that a 2,000 g combat maneuver.

This is why jumpy warpy vessels are tricky to hit.

SailorSaturn13 · Post by **SailorSaturn13** » Mon Nov 06, 2006 3:57 am

You claim accurCY advantage for SW when in ANH they can't even hit X-Wings flying STRAIGHT for 5+ secs?

AFT · Post by **AFT** » Mon Nov 06, 2006 4:52 am

Jedi Master Spock wrote:There's also a lovely page here resulting from the author of ST-v-SW.net painstakingly counting all the shots seen fired in Nemesis.

The basic summary is that while firing at the Scimitar, which maintained cloak during the battle, which was at knife-range for starships, the Enterprise and Valdore averaged about 60% accuracy. For the Scimitar, which was not firing at cloaked targets, we see roughly 90% accuracy in the VFX.

(A project for anyone with too much time on hand: Do the same thing for more battles and report back your results.)

I'm not aware of anyone counting all the misses and hits in any of the Star Wars battles.

Not quite, but I did count all the Federation ships from every fleet action during the Dominion War and all the weapons fire exchange between them and their enemies. If anyone is interested just pick the battle and I’ll post the results (Although I’m not quite sure how to present the information).

Nonamer · Post by **Nonamer** » Mon Nov 06, 2006 5:34 am

Jedi Master Spock wrote:
Darth Tanner wrote:Throughout all of Star Trek (except Kirk Trek & Archer Trek which I havn't really watched) all ships miss quite often, the Dominion war is quite a good example, the Defiant misses a lot, despite being right on enemy craft.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRm0RfUGkS4 offers some examples
That clip is... very interesting.

Pay attention, would you, to the second "miss" on that video? You see the Enterprise NCC-1701-A blur forwards. This is demonstrating not a failure of targeting, but a very nimble dodge by the maneuverable Constitution class. I'll post screencaps in a minute, I believe it comes from STV.

In a fraction of a second, the E-A goes from a crawl to leaping forward, displacing its own length forward in a fraction of a second to evade the torpedo. This, ladies and gentlemen, is a demonstration of combat maneuverability - a quick and easy to miss dodge providing on the order of hundred-gravity unexpected acceleration on demand.

Second, pay close attention to the end of each sequence. It's hard to find much time in which hits aren't happening, and many - e.g., the one of Klaa shooting at and narrowly missing the probe - occur right after the clip ends.

To expand on this line of reasoning, we also see that most of the misses fall under the following categories:

1) Torpedoes, which are slow moving and can miss.
2) Fixed-aim phasers, whose accuracy are affect by ship maneuvering and will have a lower hit rate.
3) A lot of the misses seem to be going offscreen, where they may or may not have hit.
4) The target is rapidly maneuvering and decreased accuracy can be expected.

Socar · Post by **Socar** » Mon Nov 06, 2006 5:57 am

One of the most favorable pro-accuracy Trek examples that I can think of would be from Voyager's "Thirty Days" [5x09] which had Voyager firing a photon torpedo from orbit and deflecting a moving missile which was thousands of meters under water.

http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/display ... 77&pos=437

http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/display ... 77&pos=439

http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/display ... 77&pos=440

http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/display ... 77&pos=441

http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/display ... 77&pos=443

Darth Tanner · Post by **Darth Tanner** » Mon Nov 06, 2006 11:14 am

I'm not saying that ST ships miss 100%, that would be silly.

Also in that scene the Ent is going to warp, not accelerating on impulse.

All this is getting away from the fact that 39 fed ships don't stand a chance in hell against an imperial fleet containing star destroyers, even if they don't launch fighters they are just going to be turned into scrap by tl fire, while their petty weapons fail to enetrate the armour.

Darth Tanner · Post by **Darth Tanner** » Mon Nov 06, 2006 1:48 pm

"Again Conudrum[TNG], okay they were bigger then Ties I admit, but not that much bigger, and they manuvered about as much as ties manuver. "

They were 100 years behind even ST tech, and they were not maneuvering at all, Ties can swing from side to side easily as seen when chasing X-Wings.

"You claim accurCY advantage for SW when in ANH they can't even hit X-Wings flying STRAIGHT for 5+ secs?"

As in they are agile enough to avoid it, can you understand how that works, Fed ships are not agile as fighters.

As for your acceleration claims can you actually show any evidence of warp being used in battle? other than firing torps when fleeings.

Oh and SW modified freighters can pick off droids on the hull of a ship 60km away with turbo lasers.

Starfleet Jedi

Wolf 359 fleet vs. Endor Fleet

Who wins?