Wolf 359 fleet vs. Endor Fleet

[sonofccn]

Ties lasers are better than shuttle phasers

A shuttlepod in Detained [ENT] blew a section out of a concrete wall, which http://st-v-sw.net/STSWcompare.html#Fighters estimated at 50 megajouls. In compariosn a tie fighter bolt couldn't even destroy an R2 unit beyond repair.

I dont know what speeds shuttles are capable of but I see no reason why they should be able to out run actual fighters.

Trek usally has the speed advantage.

Againa against larger, massively less advanced ships, some that had been in storgae for hundreds of years.

All of which are vastly superior to a Tie fighter, atleast the ships in Dragon teeth stood a chance of inflicting damage to Voyager.

long enough to distract the fed fleet enough for it to be annhilated by the Star destroyers

Doubtful at best, it would take an ISD fleet a while to pound through the shields of the Federation Fleet. Far longer then your fleet of ties would be alive.

[Jedi Master Spock]

Ties lasers are better than shuttle phasers

A shuttlepod in Detained [ENT] blew a section out of a concrete wall, which http://st-v-sw.net/STSWcompare.html#Fighters estimated at 50 megajouls. In compariosn a tie fighter bolt couldn't even destroy an R2 unit beyond repair.

I missed that skimming through ENT for firepower examples. I'll have to take a look at the incident in question before my next update of the ENT weapons page.

[AnonymousRedShirtEnsign]

Trek shuttles move as fast as the capitol ships at sub-light, which is about 75,000km/s. And a Danube class runabout is more like a little starship than a shuttle, and its microtorpedos and phasers make it a threat to weak or small capitol ships. Also TIE fighters usually do fly in a strait line.

[Mike DiCenso]

A reminder, don't forget that it's already been established that 20 GJ is the generous upper estimate for a small ship/heavy starfighter's (Slave-I in AoTC) firepower.
-Mike

[AFT]

On the topic of weapons ranges every time someone argues about the "knife-fight" range I cannot avoid thinking “double standard” and that goes to both sides (No offense intended by the way). Most sci-fi shows have that conundrum, Star Trek, Star Wars, Andromeda, SG-1, etc. Perhaps the only exception is Babylon 5 but I just saw the movie pilot “The Gathering” and the first episode from season one and those have the same problem, but perhaps as the show moves forward that will get better. Regardless of the dialogue the visuals always show the opposing ships very close to each other. Trek is well known but what about SW? The very first scene has a Star Destroyer firing on the rebel corvette at very close range, the fight above the Death Star between X-Wing and TIE fighters? Close range. The Star Destroyer chasing the Millennium Falcon didn’t bother to open fire until they were very close and those are only a few examples. Using this standard, visuals over dialogue, it gives SW only a couple of examples of long range fire, the running of the blocked from TPM and the Emperor’s observation window on the second Death Star during ROTJ and this example is not quite convincing. Alas, going with it Trek has more examples of long range fire! If you’re going to use it fine but you should also use it on your own side, something that many debaters fail to do. But that’s just my opinion on the topic at hand.

AFT

[AFT]

300,000km ?!! impressive
Why do we never see ships engaging target at this range in either DS9 fleet battles?

This is a running question of great interest to many fans, although stated ranges in DS9 dialogue indicate the capability was not lost. Producers got too fond of the visual "knife-fight" range.

We could say that what we see is a dramatic re-creation, with icons rescaled to sizes that the battle makes sense with, but that doesn't fit well either. We could also blame increased EW, or the fact that it only takes a few seconds to go from 300,000 km away to point-blank. "Insane" accelerations are seen regularly in travel, simply not combat.

Taking the episodes as documentaries you can say that everything going on inside the ships or stations was recorded by the internal sensors and is therefore “accurate” but most of the external shots were re-created for the documentary because: a) Most of the time there isn’t another ship to record what’s happening (from our perspective e.g. the camera) or b) Any such footage was classified by Starfleet so it wasn’t released to the “producers”. In my opinion it shouldn’t be any big deal, unfortunately it is. Real life documentaries also have this problem, watching any WWII documentary about naval battles has the narrator talking about some ship while the screen shows another ship, sometimes even of the wrong nationality! And why is that? Bingo the lack of footage! And that case dialogue should take precedence over visuals because the other way around, well, see my previous post.

[AnonymousRedShirtEnsign]

Riker actually gives us a reason for attacking at shorter ranges, reduced response time. This still doesn't explain some of the dominion war stuff.

[AFT]

For the record:

Then I recommend you do not fire until you are within forty thousand kilometers.
Commander Riker - A Matter of Honor

That’s a good reason and it makes sense, however he said 40,000 km but most scenes shows the ships about one km apart. You can say that due to their very high impulse speeds they went from thousands to a few kms in seconds but that doesn’t cover all of the available examples. In the previous episode “Unnatural Selection” when the Enterprise is about to destroy the doomed Lantree the stated range is 40 km but the ships are shown a few hundred meters apart at most! So I stick to my personal interpretation of things, it’s the only way that everything makes sense, in my opinion of course.

By the way, on the last example, not only the photon torpedo used to destroy the Lantree transverse the distance so fast that you can barely see it but as soon as it hits the Miranda variant she is engulfed in a fireball that soon dissipates leaving nothing behind in a completely DET scene of vaporization. Since the ship was running on impulse speed and more than likely the Enterprise crew in their previous boarding deactivated the warp core, the ship’s destruction is then the sole result of the photon torpedo explosion. So much for another unfunded claim about Trek weapons, the one that says that they need the “assistance” of a warp core breach to destroy their targets.

[GStone]

The Founder's propaganda worked better than was shown and everyone's scared shitless meter was way high? : )

[AFT]

The Founder's propaganda worked better than was shown and everyone's scared shitless meter was way high? : )

Uhh, I’m sorry, but what? I don’t quite understand what you’re trying to say.

[GStone]

I was joking about the use of very close ranges during the Dominion War fights. There's a ": )" at the end of the post.

[Sideswipe]

TIEs would be useless against a Federation fleet. I serioulsy doubt they could outrun a Federation starship, wich doesnt even need to fire at them. It could simply ram a group of TIEs out of existance. Darth Tanner seems to think that X-Wings are heavily shield except for the fact that TIEs can destroy them rather fast, wich says more about the weakness of X-Wings than the power of TIE lasers.