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Cardassian involvement in the Clone Wars?

Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 8:32 pm
by Khas
So, in "Rising Malevolence", General Grievous' tactical display clearly shows a Keldon-class starship:

Image

Which got me thinking.... How WOULD the Clone Wars have progressed if the Cardassians (as of, say, 2370) got involved? Who would they side with? Would Palpatine's plot be exposed earlier? What else would change?

Re: Cardassian involvement in the Clone Wars?

Posted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:53 am
by 2046
That's so cool. Nice catch!

The Cardassians . . . even a single Keldon . . . would tremendously upset the balance of power if involved. The issue of who they'd support is complicated, however. Per Dooku's ruminations the goal was an "Empire of Man", i.e. humans. The question is whether Palps would put that on hold in favor of winning, with the hopes of getting the tech, or try to fight it out with a Separatist movement capable of Star Trek-level frakkery.

The question is, was Hitler-level nuts (inasmuch as he had an alliance with the Soviets basically done, then attacked them because, despite all the ideological similarities, they were somehow Jewish and thus bad)?

I doubt he was quite that nuts. I think he'd have shelved the racism at least long enough to get closer to the ubertech, just as he shelved it when keeping the horned dude around and so on. As soon as he could swing boarding and running the ship, he'd try to Force choke the lot of them, of course, but until then he'd have let them have their way with Dooku if it got him access to their systems.

That said, the Cardassians might have a preference, but it's hard to say what it might've been. They don't much care for anyone not-them, so it might come down to which side was more easily exploited or had more to offer. Besides the Republic going broke on clones, it's hard to say, but the Seppies do get a fighting chance here.

Re: Cardassian involvement in the Clone Wars?

Posted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:28 pm
by 2046
Incidentally, as I hint in the Twitter thread I posted of this, there is irony in that the Malevolence arc shows Republic cruisers unable to hit a relatively stationary mega-ship while showing a Cardassian ship known to be able to pop Maquis fighters with relative ease.

https://twitter.com/STvSW/status/117095 ... 97056?s=20

Re: Cardassian involvement in the Clone Wars?

Posted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:12 pm
by Darth Spock
Nice, I always liked it when SW/ST would throw ship cameos in each others films, but was not aware of this one. For as cunning as they are though, I think Palpatine has more in common with the Dominion in terms of skulduggery and manipulation, and I imagine he would most likely be the one pulling the Cardies' strings as opposed to the other way around. Then again that didn't end well for the Dominion either.... One thing the Cards do appear to have a massive and undeniable advantage in is chemical truth agents. Leia's special Jedi lineage may have given her special resistance to the "mind probe" in ANH, but since Disney, the First Order's failure to extract information from Poe tell's me they haven't developed such things to the same level as in the Alpha Quadrant. Or am I remembering wrong? I thought Picard was drained dry pretty quick, but kept in torture because they enjoyed breaking him?
2046 wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:28 pm
Incidentally, as I hint in the Twitter thread I posted of this, there is irony in that the Malevolence arc shows Republic cruisers unable to hit a relatively stationary mega-ship while showing a Cardassian ship known to be able to pop Maquis fighters with relative ease.

https://twitter.com/STvSW/status/117095 ... 97056?s=20
Uhm, when did that happen again? I was just about to say that if anything in pre-Discovery 'Trek supported the notion of Star Wars grade fighters being a threat in the 'Trek universe, it would be the Cardassians:

TNG S:7E:24 "Preemptive Strike" I know disruptors aren't known for their flak bursts, but those explosions are coming from empty space. At least one of them ( 1:28-1:29 ) shows the beam passing in the fore of a not distant fighter, but the explosion is behind it as it passes, so that wasn't a strike on something too distant to be seen either. Many of the other near misses appear to be just that. Even if every beam is really striking some distant target, then at that rate the Maquis would have to have committed a hundred fighters or so to the meat grinder just to cripple that one ship. Unlikely under the circumstances. In fairness, Trekcore seems to slow those things down so they're easier to compare, but I couldn't find another video. But even at normal speed they weren't outperforming your average SW fighter maneuvering wise.

And or course there's DS9 S:6E:6 "Sacrifice of Angels". Better, but it still involved fighters about the size of the Millennium Falcon flying relatively straight right in front of a massive enemy fleet at sub mach speeds and appearing to incur about 50% losses at most. Better than Disney Star Wars (especially the Rebels cartoon), but not by that much.

Re: Cardassian involvement in the Clone Wars?

Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:18 pm
by 2046
Darth Spock wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:12 pm
Uhm, when did that happen again? I was just about to say that if anything in pre-Discovery 'Trek supported the notion of Star Wars grade fighters being a threat in the 'Trek universe, it would be the Cardassians:

TNG S:7E:24 "Preemptive Strike" I know disruptors aren't known for their flak bursts, but those explosions are coming from empty space.
You basically are arguing for flak bursts, then.
At least one of them ( 1:28-1:29 ) shows the beam passing in the fore of a not distant fighter, but the explosion is behind it as it passes, so that wasn't a strike on something too distant to be seen either.
The one at the upper left? Given how little the little red wingtip lights are visible, and contrasting that with other scenes of that type of vessel that show them clearly in the front view, plus the fact they seem to get smaller as they go, we can presume those vessels are flying away from the Galor. Even then, however, if the beam was in front of the vessel and the explosion behind, the beam would've basically had to curve around the ship to get to the explosion, at the end. I don't think you can firmly declare the beam to be in front of the ship, in such a circumstance. The beam glow may be overlapping the ship pixels on 'border' areas of the ship, or some other such thing . . . the alternative is mere compositing error. Clearly the explosion is behind it, however.
Many of the other near misses appear to be just that. Even if every beam is really striking some distant target, then at that rate the Maquis would have to have committed a hundred fighters or so to the meat grinder just to cripple that one ship. Unlikely under the circumstances.
Going up against a Galor *at all* is unlikely. The Maquis are a smaller force with smaller, less well-protected individual vessels. They cannot sustain losses yet even a massed attack against a large Cardassian warship will naturally entail them.
But even at normal speed they weren't outperforming your average SW fighter maneuvering wise.
This is definitely true. They were rather lazily swarming the Cardassian ship.
And or course there's DS9 S:6E:6 "Sacrifice of Angels". Better, but it still involved fighters about the size of the Millennium Falcon flying relatively straight right in front of a massive enemy fleet at sub mach speeds and appearing to incur about 50% losses at most. Better than Disney Star Wars (especially the Rebels cartoon), but not by that much.
We're counting a near-total lack of fire as inability? I mean, about fifty seconds in on that video a flight of Hidekis roll right past the Defiant and her escorting Mirandas. Were they mutually unable to attack one another due to targeting inability? Of course not.

Firing rate and such is a different story. In the Preemptive Strike example I'm not too concerned about the firing rate of the damaged Galor . . . it isn't bad. I'll never really know why there wasn't massed fleet fire in the SoA case, however, with the sky utterly lousy with beams. Evidently folks were trying to avoid over-exertion, however odd that sounds, but that's about all we can guess.

Re: Cardassian involvement in the Clone Wars?

Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 5:06 am
by Darth Spock
2046 wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:18 pm
You basically are arguing for flak bursts, then.
Not my first choice in Star Trek, but remembering the proximity blasts from Balance of Terror, I wouldn't completely disregard the idea either. Having said that....
The one at the upper left? Given how little the little red wingtip lights are visible, and contrasting that with other scenes of that type of vessel that show them clearly in the front view, plus the fact they seem to get smaller as they go, we can presume those vessels are flying away from the Galor. Even then, however, if the beam was in front of the vessel and the explosion behind, the beam would've basically had to curve around the ship to get to the explosion, at the end. I don't think you can firmly declare the beam to be in front of the ship, in such a circumstance. The beam glow may be overlapping the ship pixels on 'border' areas of the ship, or some other such thing . . . the alternative is mere compositing error. Clearly the explosion is behind it, however.
Given the size of the ship in question and the apparent angles, I had my doubts, but after checking closer I see another vessel undeniably in the fore of the beam also appears to be "washed out" by the glow of the same beam. F/X glitch or otherwise, it would appear this was not a solid example of a negative hit after all. So a distant strike does apparently remain a possibility there.
Going up against a Galor *at all* is unlikely. The Maquis are a smaller force with smaller, less well-protected individual vessels. They cannot sustain losses yet even a massed attack against a large Cardassian warship will naturally entail them.
And this is the main issue I see here. Even without a concrete example of a missed shot, the Cardassians are basically getting their butts kicked by a bunch of guerrilla star fighters. That scene isn’t so much what I would call an example of “popping Maquis fighters with relative ease” so much as “fighting to survive and failing, except to take a few with them.” I know when the subject of fighters in ‘Trek comes up, TNG episode “Conundrum” comes to many people’s minds. This example does not compare well.

And or course there's DS9 S:6E:6 "Sacrifice of Angels". Better, but it still involved fighters about the size of the Millennium Falcon flying relatively straight right in front of a massive enemy fleet at sub mach speeds and appearing to incur about 50% losses at most. Better than Disney Star Wars (especially the Rebels cartoon), but not by that much.
We're counting a near-total lack of fire as inability? I mean, about fifty seconds in on that video a flight of Hidekis roll right past the Defiant and her escorting Mirandas. Were they mutually unable to attack one another due to targeting inability? Of course not.
Not at all. In fact I’m not even trying to speculate why the fighters in SoA weren’t blasted out of the sky, I’m merely pointing out the fact that they weren’t. And their observed performance was on par with what we’ve seen from SW fighters, so it’s not as though they were warp juking their way to the target. My point being that you could just as easily swap that squadron of Peregrines for Y-wings and probably get more or less the same results.

Re: Cardassian involvement in the Clone Wars?

Posted: Sun Sep 15, 2019 11:15 pm
by 2046
Minus the damage to the Galor, sure.

As for the attack on the Galor, it's safe to assume that the Maquis weren't just going for a straight fight of attrition versus a fully operational Cardassian warship. Even if the Maquis were coming in with "photon torpedoes and Type VIII phasers", as Evek laments, thus having an effect similar to PT boats, it'd be awfully ballsy to stick around to try to finish the ship off if it could fire back.

For example, I'm reminded of "Maneuvers" in which Chakotay recounts an attack on a "Cardassian frigate" over Bajor in which the Cardassian computer core was disabled.

One would presume some sort of similar shenanigans in this case, weakening the Galor in advance or screwing with its systems as opposed to a simple mass attack. One would expect significant losses in the latter case.

Re: Cardassian involvement in the Clone Wars?

Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2019 11:37 pm
by Darth Spock
Sure, in fact seeing as the Galor was just sitting there in the middle of nowhere getting it's butt kicked, my guess is the propulsion systems were the first thing to go. Mobility is one of the main advantages I would count for capital ships in 'Trek over fighters. Losing that, whether by sabotage or being locked in tight formation, changes things a bit.

As for SW fighters not being able to inflict damage in a similar situation, well.... Admittedly I find myself needing to stand down on that point for now. As seems to happen too often, I was reviewing sources and noticed new details I had missed or misremembered in the past, forcing reevaluation as the whole mess of 'who can do what' starts sliding back and forth all over again.
That said, even if they were limited a single attack run, unloading a full load of heavy torpedoes or what have you as opposed to using cannons, the idea of SW fighters being rendered irrelevant in places where their 'Trek counterparts are still useful is a hard sell I think.

As for the existence of fighters in general, I’ve noticed that ‘Trek has rather an odd relationship with star fighters. They shouldn’t really function well within the technical parameters generally accepted in Star Trek, but ever since TNG the writers and producers seem to keep flirting with them all the same, unable to completely resist the thrills and spills fighter craft promise. In a versus context, having fighters in Star Trek would likely be something of a catch 22.
I have, and still do suspect that the attributes of ST fighters (particularly omni-directional beam emitters) would make them dominant in in the Star Wars universe, but as things stand they are presumably used in such small numbers they shouldn’t have as much of an impact. On the other hand, If the Star Trek franchise did fully commit to the idea of small fighters being of significant tactical value against large targets in universe, it would take a lot of the teeth out of ‘Trek’s existing capital ships. That's how it appears to me at least, observation and analysis continues.