Star Trek: "Discovery" inconsistencies with canon

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Star Trek: "Discovery" inconsistencies with canon

Post by 359 » Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:20 pm

Star Trek: "Discovery" is obviously not visually consistent with 60's era Star Trek, so let's acknowledge that here and move onto bigger and more juicy topics. Beyond that what I can come up with off the top of my head isn't a very long list, considering Star Trek's long history of inconsistency.
  • Glass vliewscreens — a neat idea, but distinctively inconsistent.
  • Pulse phasers — depends on how much weight you give early TOS e.g. TOS: "Balance of Terror."
  • Spore Drive — quietly canned at the end of DIS Season 1.
  • Warp capable shuttles — there are multiple classes of shuttle, but warp wasn't seen until TNG era.
  • Mutiny aboard a starship — again, expunged at the end of DIS Season 1.
  • Klingon cloaking devices — a simple invisibility screen, but still unheard by this time of with the exception of during ENT Season 4.
  • USS Discovery's registry — NCC-1031 despite being constructed after USS Enterprise NCC-1701 and internally USS Shinzhou NCC-1227.
  • Klingon design — Yes, we're ignoring visuals, but Klingons are supposed to look human as of ENT: "Divergence" and DS9: "Trials and Tribble-ations" (a concept I am happy to abandon).
As for major story arcs: the Klingon war and general militarization of Starfleet are consistent with the era.

What have I missed? (I am certain there's more)


***
EDIT: Corrected "Insubordination" to "Mutiny"
Last edited by 359 on Sat Mar 24, 2018 5:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Star Trek: "Discovery" inconsistencies with canon

Post by Mike DiCenso » Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:29 pm

359 wrote:Glass viewscreens — a neat idea, but distinctively inconsistent.
Not exactly. "The Cage" and "Where No Man Has Gone Before" versions of the Enterprise had rectangular markings and in one case, a light square where a window-like viewscreen would be. But in addition to that, there is the infamous "Requiem for Methuselah" scene of Kirk peeking into the bridge through a "viewscreen", that if it were a simple monitor, would show a frozen image of whatever orbital view it last saw before Flint zapped the ship and shrank her down to a desktop model. Instead, Kirk can be clearly seen moving around outside and looking inside through it:
Image

Pulse phasers — depends on how much weight you give early TOS e.g. TOS: "Balance of Terror."
Given that the Shenzou and other ships in the Federation task force had phase cannons as well as phasers, that's not much at all given we saw pulse phase cannons in ST:ENT, the NX-02 Columbia demonstrated this in "Divergence" when fighting the Klingon BoPs.
Spore Drive — quietly canned at the end of DIS Season 1.
Then it's not a contradiction if the story has a way out. A similar but from opposite direction thing occurs in TNG's "The Pegasus" with the stupid Treaty of Algeron and the introduction of the Federation have a gawddamn phase cloak. Why ever in the world would the Federation not have something like that or get written into such a boneheaded treaty in the first place?
Warp capable shuttles — there are multiple classes of shuttle, but warp wasn't seen until TNG era.
Not true. I don't know why this silly myth keeps getting repeated in fandom, but it needs to be ruthlessly quashed. Kirk and Commodore Mendez pursue an at-warp speed Enterprise in "The Menagerie, Part 1".

-In "Metamorphosis" it seems strange that Spock, Kirk, McCoy are taking the terminally sick Commissioner Hedford to rendezvous with the Enterprise across clearly interstellar distances.

- And of course the Starbase shuttlecraft stolen in "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield" that also achieved interstellar distances in 2 weeks time.
Insubordination aboard a starship — again, expunged at the end of DIS Season 1.
The problem with this one is that it is a myth spun out of a single reference by Spock in "The Tholian Web" which is at odds with "Whom Gods Destroy" and the mutiny by Kirk and Spock against Commodore Decker in "The Doomsday Machine".
Klingon cloaking devices — a simple invisibility screen, but still unheard by this time of with the exception of during ENT Season 4.
This is the only major one that sticks. But then again, as one of the showrunners pointed out, stems from a very similar retcon of cloaking technology in ST:ENT with the Suliban and Romulans having it in the 22nd century.
USS Discovery's registry — NCC-1031 despite being constructed after USS Enterprise NCC-1701 and internally USS Shenzhou NCC-1227
Not a contradiction at all:

- USS Constitution (NCC-1700)
- NCC-1707
- USS Ahwahnee (NCC-2048)
- USS Constellation (NCC-1017)
- USS Defiant (NCC-1764)
- USS Eagle (NCC-956)
- USS Emden (NCC-1856)
- USS Endeavour (NCC-1895)
- USS Enterprise (NCC-1701)
- USS Enterprise (NCC-1701-A)
- USS Excalibur (NCC-1664)
- USS Exeter (NCC-1672)
- USS Hood (NCC-1703)
- USS Intrepid (NCC-1631)
- USS Korolev (NCC-2014)
- USS Lexington (NCC-1709)
- USS Potemkin (NCC-1659)

Those are all confirmed Constitution-class starships. Total chronological order for registries seems to be a thing mostly of the TNG-era.
Klingon design — Yes, we're ignoring visuals, but Klingons are supposed to look human as of ENT: "Divergence" and DS9: "Trials and Tribble-ations" (a concept I am happy to abandon).
Except that Tyler/Voq has established that Klingon-human hybrids are still a thing and at least full Klingons can be surgically altered to pass as human (hinting at Arne Darvin's being made to pass off as human).
-Mike

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Re: Star Trek: "Discovery" inconsistencies with canon

Post by Iscander » Thu Mar 22, 2018 12:40 am

Beat me to the punch Mike.

I'd like to add that Enterprise had the Columbia not just fitted with pulse phase cannons, but was being fitted with them as part of the weapons upgrade package. Brand new top of the line for an Earth ship.
Ent S4E3 "Home"

ERIKA: We've improved hull polarization by twelve percent. We'll be able to hang in a firefight a little longer.
ARCHER: Ventral and dorsal torpedo launchers, pulsed phase cannons.
ERIKA: Upgrades you recommended. What is it?
When I heard Shenzhou was fitted with them I assumed it was supposed to tie in and show the Shenzhou was an old ship. Using what was new a hundred years ago. Same with the transporters.

As for the window/viewscreen, honestly I assume that is something that will get phased out. It ties in with the Kelvin and Franklin from the Kelvin time line which are supposed to be older ships and the early Enterprise 1701 model.

Keep in mind this is basically the end of the first Pax Federation. They had 90 years or so of peace after the Romulan war to get soft. Wise up through the TMP era fighting Klingons, then another 80 years to get soft by TNG.

What is a nifty feature to actually look out of the ship and enjoy all that space you are out there to see in peace time gets to be an armored bulkhead when people start shooting at you.

I would also add again to the registry number, though we have seen the Discovery dedication plaque, class, and all, I can't make out a launch date. She could have been fully refitted at the start of the war, like the TMP Enterprise. otherwise Starfleet build rates jump up if they designed a spore drive ship and built her and a sister ship in less than 6 months. Until I hear a launch date I will just grumble about the jumbled regristrys and pretend not to care.

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Re: Star Trek: "Discovery" inconsistencies with canon

Post by 2046 » Thu Mar 22, 2018 12:59 am

Mike DiCenso wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:29 pm
Not exactly. "The Cage" and "Where No Man Has Gone Before" versions of the Enterprise had rectangular markings and in one case, a light square where a window-like viewscreen would be.


That version of the bridge didn't even survive into production of "The Cage" . . . remember the initial shot that goes in through the top? The rectangle isn't there.

As I responded when I first saw this a month ago, "Nice try, but calling a random thing a portal rather begs the question. You'll recall that ST3 has the forward dorsal registry light come on when they enter the bridge to steal the ship … that still wasn't a window, either.

#StarTrekDiscovery is a #StarTrekReboot. It's okay."
But in addition to that, there is the infamous "Requiem for Methuselah" scene of Kirk peeking into the bridge through a "viewscreen",


Not true. He didn't even know the crew was "suspended" and not dead until Flint told him so. There's no evidence he could see inside at all.
if it were a simple monitor, would show a frozen image of whatever orbital view it last saw before Flint zapped the ship and shrank her down to a desktop model.


The lights were on in the ship. Obviously there were working systems. The viewscreen was obviously one of them.
we saw pulse phase cannons in ST:ENT, the NX-02 Columbia demonstrated this in "Divergence" when fighting the Klingon BoPs.


At the Klingon colony? I just watched that battle, and saw nothing of the sort.
Spore Drive — quietly canned at the end of DIS Season 1.
Then it's not a contradiction if the story has a way out.


The story has no way out. They've established the ability to grow spores in minutes and control the effects. The only way to explain Voyager not going home immediately is the lack of a spinny saucer.

Additionally, any alien species that doesn't use it to win a war is equally improbable.
Warp capable shuttles — there are multiple classes of shuttle, but warp wasn't seen until TNG era.
Not true.


Correct.
Insubordination aboard a starship — again, expunged at the end of DIS Season 1.
The problem with this one is that it is a myth spun out of a single reference by Spock in "The Tholian Web" which is at odds with "Whom Gods Destroy"


Garth called it mutiny, and Kirk threatens that the Enterprise crew will also resist, but I wouldn't take Garth's word for it. He was probably relieved of command properly.
and the mutiny by Kirk and Spock against Commodore Decker in "The Doomsday Machine".


That wasn't mutiny.

More later.

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Re: Star Trek: "Discovery" inconsistencies with canon

Post by Mike DiCenso » Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:15 am

2046 wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 12:59 am
That version of the bridge didn't even survive into production of "The Cage" . . . remember the initial shot that goes in through the top? The rectangle isn't there.
Image

You can see the one on the front of the bridge dome in the Mirror version of the ship which here is essentially the 2nd Pilot version. The even older marking on the bridge may just be a sensor palette, but it is interesting that it just happened to align closely with where the screen is:

Image

Also of note, none of the ship windows are lit, and the 11 foot model did not have any lights and did not get any until it was heavily modified for the second pilot.
As I responded when I first saw this a month ago, "Nice try, but calling a random thing a portal rather begs the question. You'll recall that ST3 has the forward dorsal registry light come on when they enter the bridge to steal the ship … that still wasn't a window, either.
That is very different in location just under the bridge dome proper:

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/disp ... play_media

And it is clearly a floodlight for the registry given how it illuminates it quite nicely and is not on at all when we know without any doubt that the bridge lights on the inside are very much on and would be visible through it regardless.
Not true. He didn't even know the crew was "suspended" and not dead until Flint told him so. There's no evidence he could see inside at all.

The lights were on in the ship. Obviously there were working systems. The viewscreen was obviously one of them.
Go watch the scene again. All the the blinking lights on the consoles are also frozen just like the crew as are the little side blinking indicator lights under the "viewscreen" itself. It doesn't matter what Kirk thinks is the state of the crew, dead or alive, we see him appearing to look inside. Granted, he could be looking in through the dome, but the viewscreen shows him eye-level with it.
At the Klingon colony? I just watched that battle, and saw nothing of the sort.
My mistake, sorry. I mixed up the Mirror NX-01 firing on the Tholians in "In a Mirror, Darkly" with the other battle:

Image

The story has no way out. They've established the ability to grow spores in minutes and control the effects. The only way to explain Voyager not going home immediately is the lack of a spinny saucer.
The potentially multiverse-ending use of the spore drive is reason enough, even if you can grow more of it locally.
Additionally, any alien species that doesn't use it to win a war is equally improbable.


See above.
Garth called it mutiny, and Kirk threatens that the Enterprise crew will also resist, but I wouldn't take Garth's word for it. He was probably relieved of command properly.
Garth isn't the Enterprise's captain, and is no longer a flag rank officer. When he tries to pass himself off as Kirk he failed, and later doesn't even try to do so to Scotty and the crew on the ship once the first attempt failed.
That wasn't mutiny.


Huh, yes it was. Here's the exchange towards the end:

DECKER: You are speaking to a senior officer, Kirk.
KIRK: Give me Spock.
DECKER: I told you, I am in command here, according to every rule in the book, Captain. Anything you have to say at all, you will say to me.

[Constellation Auxiliary Control]

KIRK: There's only one thing I want to say to you, Commodore. Get my ship out of there.

[Bridge]

KIRK [OC]: Mister Spock, ship status.
SPOCK: Commodore.
DECKER: Down here. (the arm of the Captain's chair)
SPOCK: Warp drive out. Deflector shields down. Transporter under repair. We are on emergency impulse power.

[Constellation Auxiliary Control]

KIRK: How long to repair warp drive?
SPOCK [OC]: At least one solar day.

[Bridge]

SPOCK: At our present rate of consumption, we'll exhaust our impulse power long before then.
SULU: It's gaining on us, sir.

[Constellation Auxiliary Control]

KIRK: Take evasive action, Mister Sulu.

[Bridge]

DECKER: I told you, I am in command here and I will give the orders, Captain. We're going to turn and attack.
KIRK [OC]: Not with my ship, you don't.

[Constellation Auxiliary Control]

KIRK: Mister Spock, relieve Commodore Decker immediately. That's a direct order.

[Bridge]

DECKER: You can't relieve me and you know it. According to regulations

[Constellation Auxiliary Control]

KIRK: Blast regulations! Mister Spock, I order you to assume command on my personal authority as Captain of the Enterprise.

[Bridge]

SPOCK: Commodore Decker, you are relieved of command.
DECKER: I don't recognise your authority to relieve me.
SPOCK: You may file a formal protest with Starfleet Command, assuming we survive to reach a Starbase. But you are relieved. Commodore. I do not wish to place you under arrest.
DECKER: You wouldn't dare. (Spock signals the guards forward) You're bluffing.
SPOCK: Vulcans never bluff.
DECKER: No. No, I don't suppose that they do. Very well, Mister Spock. The Bridge is yours.
SPOCK: Captain, I have assumed command.
KIRK [OC]: Good. Now, Mister Spock
SPOCK: One moment, sir. Commodore. I believe you are scheduled for medical examination. Mister Montgomery.
MONTGOMERY: Sir.
SPOCK: You will accompany the commodore to Sickbay.
MONTGOMERY: Aye, sir. Commodore?
(They leave.)
SPOCK: Mister Sulu, change course. Seven zero mark two one.
SULU: Mark twenty one, sir.
SPOCK: Captain, we are taking an evasive course back to you. We will try to stay ahead of the object until we can transport you aboard.

Previous to that:

DECKER: Mister Spock, I'm officially notifying you that I'm exercising my option under regulations as a Starfleet Commodore, and that I am assuming command of the Enterprise.
SPOCK: You have the right to do so, but I would advise against it.
DECKER: That thing must be destroyed.
SPOCK: You tried to destroy it once before, Commodore. The result was a wrecked ship and a dead crew.
DECKER: I made a mistake then. We were too far away. This time I'm going to hit it with full phasers at point-blank range.
SPOCK: Sensors show the object's hull is solid neutronium. A single ship cannot combat it.
DECKER: Mister Spock, that will be all. You have been relieved of command. Don't force me to relieve you of duty as well.
MCCOY: You can't let him do this, Spock.
DECKER: Doctor, you are out of line.
MCCOY: So are you, sir. Well, Spock?
SPOCK: Unfortunately, Starfleet Order 104, Section B, leaves me no alternative. Paragraph 1A clearly states
MCCOY: To blazes with regulations! You can't let him take command when you know he's wrong!
SPOCK: If you can certify Commodore Decker medically or psychologically unfit for command, I can relieve him under Section C.
MCCOY: I'll certify that right now.
SPOCK: You'll also be asked to produce your medical records to prove it.
MCCOY: Now, you know I haven't had time to run an examination on him.
SPOCK: Then your statement would not be considered valid.
DECKER: You may leave the Bridge, Doctor.
MCCOY: What about the Captain? We can't leave
DECKER: Doctor, you may leave the Bridge.
MCCOY: Spock, do something!
DECKER: Mister Spock knows his duty under regulations, Doctor. Do you? (McCoy leaves) Hard about, helmsman. Course thirty two degrees, mark ten. Deflectors at full power. Ready on main phaser banks.
SULU: Aye, aye, sir.

So you see that by the technical definitions as established by the episode itself, this is a mutiny. They may have been exonerated for it later, but it is a legal by in-universe standards of the time mutiny.
-Mike

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Re: Star Trek: "Discovery" inconsistencies with canon

Post by 2046 » Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:49 am

Mike DiCenso wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:29 pm

This is the only major one that sticks. But then again, as one of the showrunners pointed out, stems from a very similar retcon of cloaking technology in ST:ENT with the Suliban and Romulans having it in the 22nd century.
Seems bad to have to defend one's new continuity flub by pointing to prior flubs on the same topic.

- USS Constitution (NCC-1700)
- NCC-1707
- USS Ahwahnee (NCC-2048)
- USS Constellation (NCC-1017)
- USS Defiant (NCC-1764)
- USS Eagle (NCC-956)
- USS Emden (NCC-1856)
- USS Endeavour (NCC-1895)
- USS Enterprise (NCC-1701)
- USS Enterprise (NCC-1701-A)
- USS Excalibur (NCC-1664)
- USS Exeter (NCC-1672)
- USS Hood (NCC-1703)
- USS Intrepid (NCC-1631)
- USS Korolev (NCC-2014)
- USS Lexington (NCC-1709)
- USS Potemkin (NCC-1659)

Those are all confirmed Constitution-class starships.
Total chronological order for registries seems to be a thing mostly of the TNG-era.
No they aren't.

Potemkin, Korolev, and Emden are all on Operation Retrieve page 1 with identical Connie/generic icons. The next page with ships on it has non-identical icons for the ships seen, with Excelsior, Eagle, Emden and Ahwahnee featuring icons different than the Potemkin.

I rather doubt the Korolev, Emden, Ahwahnee, or Eagle are Constitutions.

http://flare.solareclipse.net/ultimateb ... /2819.html
Klingon design — Yes, we're ignoring visuals, but Klingons are supposed to look human as of ENT: "Divergence" and DS9: "Trials and Tribble-ations" (a concept I am happy to abandon).
Except that Tyler/Voq has established that Klingon-human hybrids are still a thing and at least full Klingons can be surgically altered to pass as human (hinting at Arne Darvin's being made to pass off as human).
-Mike
Except that's contrary to Arne Darvin, not supporting it. Tyler passed as fully human, whereas Darvin was obviously wrong. Given the hard work required for Tyler versus TOS Klingons, this is even more egregious.

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Re: Star Trek: "Discovery" inconsistencies with canon

Post by Mike DiCenso » Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:19 pm

2046 wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:49 am
Seems bad to have to defend one's new continuity flub by pointing to prior flubs on the same topic.
Why? It's being honest about the problems of doing any kind of Star Trek series nowadays. Each series has it's massive continuity errors, including internal ones with itself. especially TOS. That's been Trek for decades and probably why, as you already know, that Roddenberry felt that newer Trek, where it contradicted TOS, was the correct version. Flawed or not, they are at least trying to take what happened previously into account. I mean ENT's use of cloaking tech through out much of the series is a pretty major thing! It's not a one or two episode thing that you can just file away as a mistake.
No they aren't. Potemkin, Korolev, and Emden are all on Operation Retrieve page 1 with identical Connie/generic icons. The next page with ships on it has non-identical icons for the ships seen, with Excelsior, Eagle, Emden and Ahwahnee featuring icons different than the Potemkin.

I rather doubt the Korolev, Emden, Ahwahnee, or Eagle are Constitutions.
Even removing those from the line-up, it still leaves the Potemkin among many others that are clear Constitution-class starships that have out of sequence registries.
Except that's contrary to Arne Darvin, not supporting it. Tyler passed as fully human, whereas Darvin was obviously wrong. Given the hard work required for Tyler versus TOS Klingons, this is even more egregious.
Not exactly true. Dr. Culber was killed because he was able to eventually discover that Tyler was a surgically altered Klingon (DIS: "Despite Yourself"). The information gleaned from this and the subsequent examinations is most likely what allows McCoy ten years later to determine with a tricorder scan that Darvin is a surgically altered Klingon.
-Mike

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Re: Star Trek: "Discovery" inconsistencies with canon

Post by 2046 » Fri Mar 23, 2018 1:26 am

Re: flubs

I wouldn't say each series came with massive continuity problems. There were early world-building hiccups in TOS and TNG but by and large the era from 1965 to 2005 is marked by exceptional continuity given the fifty year span and mountain of hands in the pot.

The new insistence to the contrary that I am seeing around on Twitter seems to be related to the fact that Discovery's writers make that argument to justify how much they ignore. "Someone made a mistake once so anything goes!" is not wise.

Re: registries

There's no evidence of them being out of sequence. Were the Constitution we saw on a monitor indicated to have been NX-1700 then perhaps, but otherwise it's just a circular argument.

Re: Voq

"Heartbeat's all wrong... blood pressure is– Jim, this man is a Klingon!"

Doesn't sound like Culber is a very good doctor if that's the standard. A 20th Century doctor could've outed Darvin.

If there's a different standard, then that's something that needs explanation.

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Re: Star Trek: "Discovery" inconsistencies with canon

Post by 2046 » Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:02 am

Mike DiCenso wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:15 am
You can see the one on the front of the bridge dome in the Mirror version of the ship


No, you can't. You see a reflection. It appears again on the Bussards.
As I responded when I first saw this a month ago, "Nice try, but calling a random thing a portal rather begs the question. You'll recall that ST3 has the forward dorsal registry light come on when they enter the bridge to steal the ship … that still wasn't a window, either.
That is very different in location just under the bridge dome proper:


So? That's your bridge now, in the same place as JJ's. They rebuilt the ship, remember? Just like Spacedock.
And it is clearly a floodlight for the registry given how it illuminates it quite nicely


But the early-version rectangle cannot be anything but a window?

And why'd it come on if it isn't your window?
and is not on at all when we know without any doubt that the bridge lights on the inside are very much on and would be visible through it regardless.


You're talking fast.

When was it off when the lights were on?

Is there no example of windows we can't see into?
Not true. He didn't even know the crew was "suspended" and not dead until Flint told him so. There's no evidence he could see inside at all.

The lights were on in the ship. Obviously there were working systems. The viewscreen was obviously one of them.
Go watch the scene again. All the the blinking lights on the consoles are also frozen just like the crew as are the little side blinking indicator lights under the "viewscreen" itself.


So? The "frozen" lights were still operating because they were still emitting light. By necessity this means power was being created and transmitted. That means some systems were operating, such as fusion reactors or the warp core, both of which need fuel pumped in, cooling, et cetera.

The viewscreen was obviously one of the working systems.
It doesn't matter what Kirk thinks is the state of the crew, dead or alive, we see him appearing to look inside.


Is that seriously your response?
The story has no way out. They've established the ability to grow spores in minutes and control the effects. The only way to explain Voyager not going home immediately is the lack of a spinny saucer.
The potentially multiverse-ending use of the spore drive is reason enough, even if you can grow more of it locally.


That's absurd. Starfleet won a war with it. You think every other species would go all super-mature and never touch it once?
Garth called it mutiny, and Kirk threatens that the Enterprise crew will also resist, but I wouldn't take Garth's word for it. He was probably relieved of command properly.
Garth isn't the Enterprise's captain, and is no longer a flag rank officer.


What does that have to do with what I said?
That wasn't mutiny.


Huh, yes it was. {…}

So you see that by the technical definitions as established by the episode itself, this is a mutiny.


No, it isn't. Mutiny is a conspiracy to openly rebel against a proper authority. Decker being relieved was a dispute over whether his authority was proper, given the weakness of the regulation interpretation Spock was using.

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Re: Star Trek: "Discovery" inconsistencies with canon

Post by Mike DiCenso » Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:24 pm

No, you can't. You see a reflection. It appears again on the Bussards.
That is the square. We know it was there because of the behind the scenes unused footage and you can just catch sight of it. The only thing that you can argue against it being a window is the square on the side of the dome and I'm surprised you didn't catch that.
So? That's your bridge now, in the same place as JJ's. They rebuilt the ship, remember? Just like Spacedock.
Ah, so the diagram of the turbolift shafts that has the little light showing turbolift location means nothing now, does it?

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/disp ... play_media

And yes, when Kirk steps out onto the bridge, you can see the light at the dome and not below it.

We know the bridge location, Robert. Come on now.
And why'd it come on if it isn't your window?


Is there any reason for this dishonesty and playing fast and loose with what other people say? I'll also point out this is exactly how you tried to drag the fight with Mr. Oragahn out and that did not end well.
You're talking fast.

When was it off when the lights were on?

Is there no example of windows we can't see into?
You damn well know what I mean, Robert.
So? The "frozen" lights were still operating because they were still emitting light. By necessity this means power was being created and transmitted. That means some systems were operating, such as fusion reactors or the warp core, both of which need fuel pumped in, cooling, et cetera.
Or that is just an effect of the stasis that it was in. The ship appears to be exactly the way it was supposed to be on orbit when he zapped it and that is what we see when it is on the table (the inconsistencies between the 11 foot model and 3 foot one aside). The viewscreen at this point is not acting anymore as a viewscreen which should be frozen like the other systems exactly as it was on orbit when zapped. There should have been a view of the planet, but wasn't. Instead we see Kirk peering in level with it and moving around outside exactly as if it was a window.
The viewscreen was obviously one of the working systems.
How can it be working if it was frozen, suspended like everything else? You're not making any sense here anymore, Robert. I think you need to let this go.
Is that seriously your response?
I could ask you the same. Now chill out.

That's absurd. Starfleet won a war with it. You think every other species would go all super-mature and never touch it once?
First off, what other factions are known to possess this technology? Only Starfleet does that we know of.

The United States won the war against Japan by twice using atomic bombs. So why isn't everyone else winning their wars since then with them, even if it winds up rendering good portions of the world radioactive wastelands to do so? It's absurd that you wouldn't! Why wouldn't anyone in Trek use more time travel, Omega Particles, Polaric ion power, and so on to win wars?
What does that have to do with what I said?
It is moot for the Enterprise part of it because Garth was no longer a lawful flag officer and had been by that point found legally insane. So of course the Enterprise crew wouldn't let him take command. As for the first part, by the definitions of mutiny, Garth's crew did mutiny.
No, it isn't. Mutiny is a conspiracy to openly rebel against a proper authority. Decker being relieved was a dispute over whether his authority was proper, given the weakness of the regulation interpretation Spock was using.
You're trying to weasel your way out of that by claiming it isn't. So officers can spontaneously take over a ship on the spot and it won't be mutiny? It has to be a long drawn out conspiracy first? That is absurd, Robert and you know it.

Typically it is defined as:

1.
revolt or rebellion against constituted authority, especially by sailors against their officers.
2.
rebellion against any authority.
verb (used without object), mutinied, mutinying.
3.
to commit the offense of mutiny; revolt against authority.

https://www.google.com/search?ei=21W1Wt ... cwJmrRB44s
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dic ... ish/mutiny
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/di ... ish/mutiny

They were disobeying the orders of a lawful commanding flag officer. That is mutiny! The fact is that McCoy hadn't been able to present medical findings to find Decker unfit is how Decker was able to assume command of the Enterprise in the first place. The plot hole is, of course, that McCoy had examined Decker on the Constellation and found him in a state of unresponsive mental shock which could have been used as the basis for him being unfit and allowed Spock right then and there to legally deny Decker command. But McCoy forgot that apparently and didn't bring it up. That plot hole was later corrected for TNG's "Lonely Among Us" where Dr. Crusher on the spot certified Picard unfit without any examination.
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Re: Star Trek: "Discovery" inconsistencies with canon

Post by 2046 » Sun Mar 25, 2018 2:15 pm

Actually, I was going off of some bad information regarding the lit squares on the bridge. My source indicated that the front square never made it into series production, but this wasn't entirely correct . . . the *series production* version of the ship didn't have them, but not all of the assorted pilot ship shots were replaced by the series production version with the shorter bridge.

See: http://www.trekplace.com/tosfxcatalog.html

The WNM Approach shot actually shows the front square properly from afar.

That said, it's obvious the front square was never intended to be a window any more than the squares on the side of the second pilot version were meant to be side windows. It's also clear they were never shown that way. To claim otherwise is merely a desperate claim of precedent where none exists.

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Re: Star Trek: "Discovery" inconsistencies with canon

Post by Mike DiCenso » Sun Mar 25, 2018 4:15 pm

2046 wrote:Actually, I was going off of some bad information regarding the lit squares on the bridge. My source indicated that the front square never made it into series production, but this wasn't entirely correct . . . the *series production* version of the ship didn't have them, but not all of the assorted pilot ship shots were replaced by the series production version with the shorter bridge.
Which I note what version of the ship had them:
I wrote wrote:Not exactly. "The Cage" and "Where No Man Has Gone Before" versions of the Enterprise had rectangular markings and in one case, a light square where a window-like viewscreen would be.

That said, it's obvious the front square was never intended to be a window any more than the squares on the side of the second pilot version were meant to be side windows. It's also clear they were never shown that way. To claim otherwise is merely a desperate claim of precedent where none exists.
I'm surprised you're even bothering to reply after I had thrown this bone to you earlier:
I wrote wrote:The only thing that you can argue against it being a window is the square on the side of the dome and I'm surprised you didn't catch that.
And it isn't "desperation" to note such details, if you'd paid attention to the context. It is simply noting that there was at one time markings and window-like lights that happen to be where the "viewscreen" is and that originally there might've been some contention among the staff as to what everything was. The staff was kind of making stuff up as they went and not nearly as much was set in stone at that point despite what many fans believe.

For instance, the Enterprise underwent several size changes, first being a mere 200 feet long, then it was enlarged for the 1st Pilot to 560 feet and then to 947 for the rest of the series. Other things like phasers, photon torpedoes were altered or added on as the 1st season plodded along. Pulse phaser effects became photon torpedoes late in the season, and the phaser crews in a special room was quietly dropped by second season because it is such an absurd concept for a highly advanced ship. The Enterprise doesn't have a shuttle at all in "The Enemy Within" and then the ship itself does along with a fully equipped hanger as if it was always there.

Some of this stems from Jefferies having an absolute belief that the ship was clean and smooth-hulled because all was internal so that the crew could access those systems for shirt-sleeve easy maintenance. That was set in opposition with the model crew lead by Dick Datin who wanted to place details over the hull to make the ship look more interesting. Eventually Roddenberry settled on the side of more detail when he wanted lights added, technical markings, and even weathering so the ship would hold up under weekly audience scrutiny.

Other things like who was the command authority for the Enterprise. Early on Kirk and company referred to UESPA only, that the ship was a solely Earth-operated vessel and nary a reference to Starfleet or to the Federation. That again did not come into being until late in season 1 and not firmed up until season 2 along with things like introducing the concept of the Prime Directive.

So because things were in such flux back then I can see people on the writing staff and FX crews even late in season 3 thinking the viewscreen is a window that HUD-style can overlay images onto it. Or taking a bit of a "what the hell" attitude so they can have a cool scene of Kirk peeking into the bridge when the ship gets shrunk down.
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Re: Star Trek: "Discovery" inconsistencies with canon

Post by 2046 » Sun Mar 25, 2018 4:39 pm

Mike DiCenso wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:24 pm
Ah, so the diagram of the turbolift shafts that has the little light showing turbolift location means nothing now, does it?


It isn't in the right location.
We know the bridge location, Robert. Come on now.


I am simply making arguments as absurd as yours. You *are* claiming a bridge window in prime canon, are you not? Well, don't pussy-foot around and cherry-pick. Own the claim.
And why'd it come on if it isn't your window?


Is there any reason for this dishonesty and playing fast and loose with what other people say? I'll also point out this is exactly how you tried to drag the fight with Mr. Oragahn out and that did not end well.


Went fine for me, and there's no dishonesty to my question. You claim a lit square that appeared on the exterior of the taller bridge in old shots was a window. A similar lit area on the TMP refit, one that actually comes on when the bridge becomes occupied, is somehow not. I'd just like to understand why you treat these things inconsistently.

Or, in short, why'd the light come on if it isn't your window?
When was it off when the lights were on?


Who says it should be? You're the one claiming windows.
Is there no example of windows we can't see into?
Plenty, and I actually prefer it that way. But as the person claiming Kirk peered in to the bridge, I wouldn't expect you to argue this point.
So? The "frozen" lights were still operating because they were still emitting light. By necessity this means power was being created and transmitted. That means some systems were operating, such as fusion reactors or the warp core, both of which need fuel pumped in, cooling, et cetera.
Or that is just an effect of the stasis that it was in.
Your response here is mind-bogglingly awful. What stasis effect could keep the lights working? What, were photons being constantly beamed in to the frozen bridge and caused to appear as if they were coming from every light?

And if that level of magic was involved, why couldn't he do the same with the viewscreen, projecting upon it whatever he wanted?

Face it, Mike, your claim is invalid from every direction. You feel that the scene shows Kirk peering in yet he demonstrably didn't see anyone and didn't know anyone's condition after supposedly doing so. You claim it must've been a window because the ship was frozen, yet it is trivially easy to demonstrate that, whether by tech or magic, it wasn't totally so.
The viewscreen was obviously one of the working systems.
How can it be working if it was frozen, suspended like everything else? You're not making any sense here anymore, Robert. I think you need to let this go.


You are literally making a circular argument, and it is sad that you won't admit it.
Is that seriously your response?
I could ask you the same. Now chill out.


Like hell.

In response to your claim that Kirk peered into your claimed bridge window, I pointed out the fact that Kirk did not know the condition of the crew after doing so . . . he had to be told what their state was.

Think, man. If Kirk peeked in and saw everyone suspended, he wouldn't have to be told they were suspended.

Your response? "It doesn't matter what Kirk thinks is the state of the crew, dead or alive, we see him appearing to look inside."

Think of how atrocious that response is. You disregard the point completely and declare that because it looks to you like he's looking inside, then he is, and therefore the bridge has a window that's invisible from the outside in that very scene.

The hell? You expect me to just roll over and chill out when confronted with that pitiful excuse for an argument, and in between your insults no less?

Do you not know who I am?
That's absurd. Starfleet won a war with it. You think every other species would go all super-mature and never touch it once?
First off, what other factions are known to possess this technology? Only Starfleet does that we know of.

The United States won the war against Japan by twice using atomic bombs. So why isn't everyone else winning their wars since then with them, even if it winds up rendering good portions of the world radioactive wastelands to do so? It's absurd that you wouldn't! Why wouldn't anyone in Trek use more time travel, Omega Particles, Polaric ion power, and so on to win wars?


Wait, I thought you were the Discovery fan. You do know that the Mirror Universe using the spore stuff as a power technology was killing the universe, not travel use, right? Using it for travel is a war-winner, as we saw.
What does that have to do with what I said?
It is moot for the Enterprise part of it because Garth was no longer a lawful flag officer and had been by that point found legally insane. So of course the Enterprise crew wouldn't let him take command.


That has nothing to do with my point. We were discussing the concept of mutiny. You claim Garth's crew mutinied. I said he's nuts and they relieved him of duty properly, but in Garth's mind alone it was mutiny.

Ergo, to your point that Spock's statement of no mutiny was "at odds" with "Whom Gods Destroy", I reject your claim.
No, it isn't. Mutiny is a conspiracy to openly rebel against a proper authority. Decker being relieved was a dispute over whether his authority was proper, given the weakness of the regulation interpretation Spock was using.
You're trying to weasel your way out of that by claiming it isn't.


No, I simply reject calling everything a mutiny just to desperately prop up Discovery's flushing of continuity at every turn.
So officers can spontaneously take over a ship on the spot and it won't be mutiny? It has to be a long drawn out conspiracy first? That is absurd, Robert and you know it.


Yeah, I do, which is convenient since I never suggested a long and drawn-out conspiracy. Is your position so weak that you require these straw men?
They were disobeying the orders of a lawful commanding flag officer. That is mutiny!


Nope. Suicide was also just cause to relieve him, in the episode, and while Spock was being a stickler on what he was empowerred to do by the letter of the law, Kirk's order was, in effect, commanding a difference in interpretation for later adjudication.

I fully agree that it was a potential plot hole for Spock to act so illogically, unless we backfill some elements of Spock suddenly trying to avoid abject arrogance versus human illogic, but nevertheless the event was not a mutiny. Decker was relieved of command, as he himself acknowledged without crying mutiny.

Again, in your desperation to support Discovery, you're not considering things carefully at all.

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Re: Star Trek: "Discovery" inconsistencies with canon

Post by Mike DiCenso » Sun Mar 25, 2018 9:10 pm

2046 wrote:
Sun Mar 25, 2018 4:39 pm
It isn't in the right location.
It is. Kirk orders the lift to the bridge and we see the light in motion. When he gets there and disembarks, the light shows it at the little dome. So that is the bridge.
I am simply making arguments as absurd as yours. You *are* claiming a bridge window in prime canon, are you not? Well, don't pussy-foot around and cherry-pick. Own the claim.
No you creating a strawman. I addressed this in full. No one back when TOS was being made in the 60s was completely sure what was what which leads to YATIs. You argue that the bridge couldn't have had a window and when I showed some evidence you blew up and railed at me for it. You now have taken to strawman arguments to dismiss the evidence, even after I was generous to you in noting there was at least one more square light on the Second Pilot version of the ship. You have also now gone off on such ludicrous nonsense that everyone and thing in the ship is frozen in place, but that doesn't mean the ship's systems aren't working, even though they aren't!

Your argument shouldn't be nitpicking every little thing to disprove me. You should just acknowledge those things are YATIs and then argue that they don't count on that point.

This is why I have to call you out.
Plenty, and I actually prefer it that way. But as the person claiming Kirk peered in to the bridge, I wouldn't expect you to argue this point.
He is peering inside. You can see it clearly. But you've taken to fighting every little detail at this point rather than actually argue the point in proper logical fashion. Just go back and reread. It's that you shouldn't be arguing it isn't happening that way in the scene, you should argue it's a YATI.
our response here is mind-bogglingly awful. What stasis effect could keep the lights working? What, were photons being constantly beamed in to the frozen bridge and caused to appear as if they were coming from every light?

And if that level of magic was involved, why couldn't he do the same with the viewscreen, projecting upon it whatever he wanted?

Face it, Mike, your claim is invalid from every direction. You feel that the scene shows Kirk peering in yet he demonstrably didn't see anyone and didn't know anyone's condition after supposedly doing so. You claim it must've been a window because the ship was frozen, yet it is trivially easy to demonstrate that, whether by tech or magic, it wasn't totally so.
What isn't mind bogglingly awful about that whole scene? Come one. This is why I'm getting pissed at you. It is fucking magic shit tech that we've never ever seen before in Star Trek, even in the other timelines, and never again afterwards.

Tell me how the hell the damn thing can do what it does to zap a nearly million ton ship out of orbit and make it into desk top model with the crew and everything perfectly inside and frozen at the exact moment they were zapped? And every system and light is also set exactly at what it was when zapped. Meaning the systems aren't responsive and are frozen in time, too. Kirk peers inside. How would no just seeing his crew standing frozen like that they are dead or alive? That makes zero sense on your part, Robert.

Here is the scene from Chrissie's transcripts:

KIRK: Kirk to Enterprise.
(We see Flint press a button, and the Enterprise disappear from its orbit)
KIRK: Clear out of the area. Inform Starfleet Command. Enterprise? Scotty?
FLINT: They cannot answer, Captain.
(A model Enterprise appears on a table. Kirk peers in through the viewscreen to see everyone stationary)
KIRK: My crew.
FLINT: The test of power. You had no chance. It is time for you to join your crew.
KIRK: You'd wipe out four hundred lives? Why?
FLINT: I have seen a hundred billion fall. I know death better than any man. I have tossed enemies into his grasp. And I know mercy. Your crew is not dead, but suspended.
KIRK: Worse than dead! Restore them. Restore my ship!
FLINT: In time. A thousand, two thousand years. You will know the future, Captain Kirk.
MCCOY: You have been such men. You've known and created such beauty. You've watched your race evolve from cruelty and barbarism throughout your enormous life, and yet now you would do this to us?

Even they agree he's peering inside at the crew! It's been on the biggest TOS YATIs since the earliest days of Trek fandom. But him doing so doesn't tell them whether they are dead or alive! How could he know? He just came to the worst possible conclusion until Flint reassured him they were just suspended. But Kirk not being able to tell if his crew is dead or alive doesn't mean he's not peering in at them.
Do you not know who I am?
I never thought I'd hear that from you.
Wait, I thought you were the Discovery fan. You do know that the Mirror Universe using the spore stuff as a power technology was killing the universe, not travel use, right? Using it for travel is a war-winner, as we saw.
Yes, I know that. But logically it's a factor in the eventual ending of the use of it. They now know that direct use of it kills the mycelial network and endangers the multiverse. That was the obvious takeaway and why once the war ended, the technology's use was ended. Would you want someone getting a hold of this and then using it as a way to make another Charon-class mycelial reactor? Even Janeway made a similar choice with regards to Omega Particles despite Seven finding a possible means of containment for them.
Nope. Suicide was also just cause to relieve him, in the episode, and while Spock was being a stickler on what he was empowerred to do by the letter of the law, Kirk's order was, in effect, commanding a difference in interpretation for later adjudication.

I fully agree that it was a potential plot hole for Spock to act so illogically, unless we backfill some elements of Spock suddenly trying to avoid abject arrogance versus human illogic, but nevertheless the event was not a mutiny. Decker was relieved of command, as he himself acknowledged without crying mutiny.

Again, in your desperation to support Discovery, you're not considering things carefully at all.
Yes, suicide was just cause, but Spock did not press the advantage there just like McCoy did not when he clearly had a perfectly legal way to declare Decker unfit for command. But that does not change the fact that what he and Kirk did was mutiny by definition. Decker did decry it, he even said to Spock that he didn't recognize his authority. It was only when Spock threatened to have Decker arrested right then and there did he back down.

And yes, I am. I haven't "in desperation" been defending the show, I've been defending it from silly attacks on it that don't address any of the actual flaws of the show. I've even been nice and tossed a couple out there for you. But claiming that committing mutiny in Star Trek wasn't ever a thing is silly and ignores two TOS episodes that rendered that series inconsistent with itself.

And I'm not the one picking at every little detail.
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Re: Star Trek: "Discovery" inconsistencies with canon

Post by 2046 » Mon Mar 26, 2018 12:09 am

Mike DiCenso wrote:
Sun Mar 25, 2018 9:10 pm
2046 wrote:
Sun Mar 25, 2018 4:39 pm
It isn't in the right location.
It is. Kirk orders the lift to the bridge and we see the light in motion. When he gets there and disembarks, the light shows it at the little dome. So that is the bridge.


And it isn't in precisely the right spot.

This isn't pedantry . . . you're the one claiming a window for TOS but rejecting it for TMP, so I want you to recognize that your argument is equally bad both times. What you are doing is making a choice of what to believe then cherry-picking evidence and ignoring the contrary until it "fits", but you cannot do that, insult me for disagreeing, and think I'll just say "yes, sir".
I am simply making arguments as absurd as yours. You *are* claiming a bridge window in prime canon, are you not? Well, don't pussy-foot around and cherry-pick. Own the claim.
No you creating a strawman.


No, making a point about your flagrantly inconsistent argument.
You argue that the bridge couldn't have had a window and when I showed some evidence you blew up and railed at me for it.


You'd already gone full explosive, so don't pretend this thread is disconnected from the other. I responded because the fact that you would try to delete the viewscreen and invent a window on the TOS bridge to desperately try to make Discovery less ridiculous is appalling.
I was generous to you in noting there was at least one more square light on the Second Pilot version of the ship.


Generous? What, did you think I was supposed to argue that the side lights are not windows ergo the front one isn't? While not incorrect, that argument isn't mine, because I am doing just fine directly challenging your bogus claim instead of taking the side road.
You have also now gone off on such ludicrous nonsense that everyone and thing in the ship is frozen in place, but that doesn't mean the ship's systems aren't working, even though they aren't!


How can you claim I am straw-manning you then turn around and say this?

I said: "The lights were on in the ship. Obviously there were working systems. The viewscreen was obviously one of them." Since that didn't faze you, I then drew it out in more detail, saying: "The "frozen" lights were still operating because they were still emitting light. By necessity this means power was being created and transmitted. That means some systems were operating, such as fusion reactors or the warp core, both of which need fuel pumped in, cooling, et cetera.

The viewscreen was obviously one of the working systems."

Your claim above doesn't resemble what I said.
Your argument shouldn't be nitpicking every little thing to disprove me. You should just acknowledge those things are YATIs and then argue that they don't count on that point.


You'd like that, wouldn't you? "Aw c'mon Mike, that was third season silliness, just ignore it" is hardly a powerful condemnation of your nonsensical claim.
This is why I have to call you out.


You have *chosen* your path. There was no "have to". I was completely unaware of the ill will you've harbored, and but for board-related stuff (e.g. not acquiescing to Oragahn's BS, causing you some work load that I apologized for at the time), I consider it completely unjustified. I was even being nice while you were being insulting in the other thread, but I have limits of what I'll tolerate both in regards to insults and vapid argumentation.
He is peering inside. You can see it clearly.
Bullshit. He looks at the ship. We see him doing so on the viewscreen. That's it. Everything else is you making an assumption and refusing to acknowledge anything to the contrary.
But you've taken to fighting every little detail at this point


Do you not know who I am?
rather than actually argue the point in proper logical fashion. Just go back and reread. It's that you shouldn't be arguing it isn't happening that way in the scene, you should argue it's a YATI.


That's not the proper logical fashion. That's acquiescence to the utter nonsense you're spewing. Watch:
our response here is mind-bogglingly awful. What stasis effect could keep the lights working? What, were photons being constantly beamed in to the frozen bridge and caused to appear as if they were coming from every light?

And if that level of magic was involved, why couldn't he do the same with the viewscreen, projecting upon it whatever he wanted?

Face it, Mike, your claim is invalid from every direction. You feel that the scene shows Kirk peering in yet he demonstrably didn't see anyone and didn't know anyone's condition after supposedly doing so. You claim it must've been a window because the ship was frozen, yet it is trivially easy to demonstrate that, whether by tech or magic, it wasn't totally so.
What isn't mind bogglingly awful about that whole scene? Come one. This is why I'm getting pissed at you. It is fucking magic shit tech that we've never ever seen before in Star Trek, even in the other timelines, and never again afterwards.


You are literally arguing that it's a window based on rules you have made up about how what you yourself just called "fucking magic shit tech" must, and can only in your mind, operate!

You can get pissed at me all day long if you're doing so based on that level of silliness. It's sad, and I wish you'd reconsider, but at the end of the day it's just stupid and there's clearly no preventing it.
Tell me how the hell the damn thing can do what it does to zap a nearly million ton ship out of orbit and make it into desk top model with the crew and everything perfectly inside and frozen at the exact moment they were zapped?


Why ask me? You're the one so damned certain of how the thing works that by your own statement the viewscreen should've shown the planet from orbit, still. You explain it to us. How did it keep the lights on, and why did it do that but could not possibly have let the viewer show a live image?
And every system and light is also set exactly at what it was when zapped.


So no light changed at all? The suspension was a perfect zero? Why do you think this? Please, prove your case . . . and perhaps you should've done so before insulting me.
Even they agree he's peering inside at the crew!


Chakoteya is a "she", not a "they", and her color commentary isn't canon. Congrats for having another fan as wrong as you on that point, though.
Do you not know who I am?
I never thought I'd hear that from you.


Well, then, stop pissing down my back and telling me it's raining if you know me.
Wait, I thought you were the Discovery fan. You do know that the Mirror Universe using the spore stuff as a power technology was killing the universe, not travel use, right? Using it for travel is a war-winner, as we saw.
Yes, I know that. But logically it's a factor in the eventual ending of the use of it.


Ohh, so we should just go with your surmise, then, rather than the logic (lol) of the show.
They now know that direct use of it kills the mycelial network and endangers the multiverse.


If you *burn* it for power, figuratively speaking, yeah. But using it for transportation? Isn't that what the tardigrade does every day?
Spock did not press the advantage there just like McCoy did not when he clearly had a perfectly legal way to declare Decker unfit for command.


So it isn't mutiny, by your own view.
But that does not change the fact that what he and Kirk did was mutiny by definition.


Just stop. You're embarrassing yourself.

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