Who are the best ground troops?

For polite and reasoned discussion of Star Wars and/or Star Trek.

Who are the best ground troops from Star Trek and Star Wars

Poll ended at Tue Oct 17, 2006 9:53 pm

UFP Security Officers
6
46%
Klingon Warriors
0
No votes
Gem Hadar Soldiers
4
31%
Imperial Stormtroopers
0
No votes
Rebel Soldiers
1
8%
Clone Troopers
0
No votes
CIS Battledroids
0
No votes
Ewoks
2
15%
 
Total votes: 13

User avatar
AnonymousRedShirtEnsign
Jedi Knight
Posts: 380
Joined: Thu Aug 17, 2006 10:05 pm
Location: Six feet under the surface of some alien world

Who are the best ground troops?

Post by AnonymousRedShirtEnsign » Fri Aug 18, 2006 9:53 pm

Which faction has the best infantry? No vehicular, air, orbital, or other support (like transporters and Jedi). This is a comparison for evenly sized forces in neutral territory. Just standard infantry equipment and troops that are seen used or described in the films/ TV shows.

Socar
Bridge Officer
Posts: 234
Joined: Thu Aug 17, 2006 9:09 pm

Post by Socar » Fri Aug 18, 2006 11:48 pm

UFP Security Officers

Well, it's a shame that we didn't see more ground combat during the Dominion War, so it's kinda hard to gauge exactly how effective they are, especially on a scale of more than just a minor skirmish. If we're just limiting ourselves to simply "security officers" then it doesn't offer as much as it might otherwise.


Klingon Warriors

Meh. There tendency to use Bat'leths and the like lowers their effectiveness on anything other than surprise attacks, especially against a full fledged military force.


Gem Hadar Soldiers

Probably the best so far. Being clones and being controlled by the Dominion makes them expendable, and their camouflage would be very useful.


Imperial Stormtroopers

Compared to Clone Troopers, pretty mediocre. Despite the precision and accuracy described by Obi-Wan in A New Hope, we saw otherwise many times.


Rebel Soldiers

Again, certainly not the best SW side has to offer. We didn't really see all that much of their combat abilities in RotJ, but more so in ESB. There simply were overwhelmed by the AT-AT's so it's hard to say.


Clone Troopers

Probably the best out of all the options, only really challenged by the Jem Hadar (maybe). I'm not going to get into a debate about the actual level of military equipment compared to the ST side, but assuming everyone has equal weapon power, Clone Troopers would definitely be among the top tier.


CIS Battledroids

Pretty expendable, but somewhat limited in terms of effectiveness, compared to the Clone Troopers (especially the standard battle droid).


Ewoks

Was this the humor option? Although they did have a surprisingly sucessful campaign against Stormtrooper forces, if you bring them out of their own environment, their effectiveness drops to nil.


I'd have to go with Clonetrooopers for the SW side, with Jem Hadar for the ST side. Overall, probably Clonetroopers.

Jedi Master Spock
Site Admin
Posts: 2164
Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 8:26 pm
Contact:

Post by Jedi Master Spock » Sat Aug 19, 2006 6:18 am

It's a trade-off. It's fairly easy to pick clonetroopers over stormtroopers, but most of the other options have good points to them.

I would say that Starfleet Security probably has the best individual pieces of equipment. Someone trained in the complete uses of a comm badge, tricorder, and phaser can accomplish almost anything.

Clonetroopers are probably the best trained soldiers on that list. Jem'Hadar are also trained from birth, but they don't seem as cunning - and while individual Klingon warriors may have more combat training, it seems rare for them to concentrate on group infantry tactics.

Without any doubt, Klingons can take more damage than any of the other soldiers on the list, but they tend to get carried away. Give the Klingons the right leader with enough time to make sure they are effective soldiers working as a unit, rather than undisciplined warriors fighting duels, and they would dominate the battlefield. If only, but that seems unlikely.

Jem'Hadar have the ability to turn invisible while standing still. That is a truly nasty advantage. Overall, I would deem them the most dangerous, particularly with Jedi and Borg out of the equation.

User avatar
AnonymousRedShirtEnsign
Jedi Knight
Posts: 380
Joined: Thu Aug 17, 2006 10:05 pm
Location: Six feet under the surface of some alien world

Post by AnonymousRedShirtEnsign » Sat Aug 19, 2006 9:33 am

In my opinion there are only three factions worth considering in this contest. UFP, Jem Hadar (sorry about spelling earlier, but my ST: Encyclopedia was else where), and clonetroopers.

The UFP security officers. I call them security officers, because to the best of my knowledge, Starfleet is the only federation wide military. This is also based on the DS9 episodes Homefront and Paradise Lost, in which the ground troops that are expected to hold off the fake Dominion attack are all Starfleet security officers. Anyway, they deserve consideration for several factors. First, firepower: the UFP troops field sidearms that can disintegrate people, rocks, what ever, they also have rifles, rocket launchers, and kiloton level photon grenade mortars. Second, most, if not all, carry tricorders. These, in conjuncture with com-badges, basically eliminate friendly fire, allow your troops to know where the enemy is and how well they are armed. Tricorders also give you a map of the area, probably a geologic one, to help the troops formulate an effective battle plan.

The Jem Hadar from the Dominion. While not the smartest troops ever, they are the most willing to die for their cause. They aren't as tactically stupid as the Klingons, low level NCOs have a decent grasp of tactics and know when their commander is sending them into a trap (Rocks and Shoals-DS9). Their cloaking devices are also extremely useful, and according to Chief O'Brian they move very rapidly. If they command themselves they are less likely to engage in a war of attrition, which will reduce their casualty rate and increase their chance of wining. In an extended conflict setting, these would be the best troops because they can be cloned and are combat effective in weeks or months, not years like the Republic clones. They are also superior soldiers to humans. Their two major drawbacks are, dependence on ketracel-white, and their lack of heavy weapons.

The clonetroopers of the Grand Army of the Republic. Sometimes they are smart when it comes to tactics and strategy, but sometimes they are down right dumb. They are the best armed of all SW factions, except maybe the CIS with its SBDs and droidikas, but blaster rifles aren't anymore effective than high caliber rifles of today. I doubt that their armor would even be a factor, since it doesn't stop blasters, there is no reason to assume it would stop a weapon with superior firepower like a phaser. They probably do have a proto E-web (the EU name for the tripod mounted gun form Hoth) which either functions as a heavy machine gun or light artillery. This would greatly improve the clone trooper's firepower. Their greatest asset is their decade long training program.

The CIS battle droids would be considered if there were more super battle droids and droidikas, and less standard battle droids. But because there are so many more crappy TF type battle droids, those would compose most of the CIS's ground force in this scenario.

I also left out the Cardassians, Romulans, Ferengi, Breen, etc. because they are rarely seen in ground combat, or are demilitarizing. And yes, the Ewoks are a joke, but they did beat the Emperor's finest legion with mechanized support. Oh shoot, I forgot about the Wookiees. But the fact that they get up out from behind their trenches and counter charge the droid army puts them on Klingon level when it comes to tactics.

Based on their superior tech and weapons the UPF would probably win, if everyone uses the same guns then the clonetroopers would win. Though to be perfectly honest, Khan and his army of augments would probably kick the crap out of all of them, inferior weapons or not.

Narsil
Jedi Knight
Posts: 332
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2006 9:59 am

Post by Narsil » Sat Aug 19, 2006 2:28 pm

I'd say Clonetroopers from the list, they're the smartest of the lot, and know the meaning of combined arms.

In overall televised/movie sci-fi, then the best groundforces go to the Daleks.

Socar
Bridge Officer
Posts: 234
Joined: Thu Aug 17, 2006 9:09 pm

Post by Socar » Sat Aug 19, 2006 8:50 pm

AnonymousRedShirtEnsign wrote:The UFP security officers. I call them security officers, because to the best of my knowledge, Starfleet is the only federation wide military. This is also based on the DS9 episodes Homefront and Paradise Lost, in which the ground troops that are expected to hold off the fake Dominion attack are all Starfleet security officers.
While that may be true, in "...Nor the Battle to the Strong" we saw Starfleet ground personnel -not- wearing security officer uniforms, and in fact seemed to be part of a particular Starfleet ground force. If you're still wondering what I'm talking about, remember the guy who Jake ran into during this, which DITL shows here, and you can see a better image at Memory Alpha here.

As for the Homefront/Paradise Lost two-parter, keep in mind that those weren't troops involved in actual combat, but merely tasked with keeping Earth safe incase of Dominion invasion. Since Starfleet is headquartered on Earth, along with the personnel being beamed from Starships in the area, obviously much of what we're going to see would be security officers. That doesn't mean that Starfleet doesn't have other combat forces.

AnonymousRedShirtEnsign wrote:Their cloaking devices are also extremely useful
Actually, they aren't cloaking devices, Jem'Hadar can literally camouflage their bodies. It's part of their biology. Possibly engineered that way by the Founders.

Other advantages the Jem'Hadar have over humans include the fact that they don't need any sleep/relaxation or nourishment (other than ketracel-white of course). They also have vision several times stronger than humans.

AnonymousRedShirtEnsign wrote:Their two major drawbacks are, dependence on ketracel-white, and their lack of heavy weapons.
It should be noted that although we haven't seen any such weapons, due to our limited amount of full-fledged Jem'Hadar ground force fighting, we shouldn't exclude the possibility of their existence. After all, other than a very few instances (such as Insurrection), we wouldn't have known Starfleet had them either.

Jedi Master Spock wrote:Jem'Hadar have the ability to turn invisible while standing still.
Not only standing still, but while moving as well.

Jedi Master Spock
Site Admin
Posts: 2164
Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 8:26 pm
Contact:

Post by Jedi Master Spock » Sat Aug 19, 2006 10:27 pm

I stand corrected about the Jem'Hadar being able to move while shrouded.

As far as the infantry vs security officer bit goes, this was a starship security uniform for a while:
Image
You see these in all the original cast movies. Looks better than the shirt.

The heavy shirt seen in "Nor..." is probably the descendent of the original armored vests seen in the STI-VI era, and I would be shocked if security officers posted in high-risk situations didn't have them available on demand.

I really don't think the Federation infantry kit is going to be that different from security officers' kit in most eras. The only important difference between dedicated infantry and security officers is going to be the training.

While they may be well trained, I would still suggest that clonetroopers and Jem'Hadar have more infantry training, and Klingons more combat training overall.

User avatar
AnonymousRedShirtEnsign
Jedi Knight
Posts: 380
Joined: Thu Aug 17, 2006 10:05 pm
Location: Six feet under the surface of some alien world

Post by AnonymousRedShirtEnsign » Sun Aug 20, 2006 8:52 am

Starfleet is widely regarded as the Navy of the Federation, but they seem more like the Marines. Unlike the US Marine Corps, the emphasis is on ships, but planets are captured and held by ground troops. After all doesn't the Marine song include the phrase "we fight our country's battles in air on land and at sea." And it really shouldn't matter too much who the federation uses for ground troops since both would get combat training. Starfleet security officers would probably get training for both ground combat (away missions) and combat on a ship, where as soldiers would only get ground combat training.

And as to not seeing heavy Jem Hadar weapons, I don't doubt that they have some sort, but probably not kiloton level mortars. Tanks and artillery are troop support weapons and not equipment carried into battle by troops so it isn't part of this scenario. And their inherent camo ability is better than the cloaking devices seen by the Romulans and Klingons, since it doesn't produce that hazy distorted look. But it does work like a cloaking device as it shields them from scanning (Rocks and Shoals-DS9).

Starfleet officers appear to be the most resourceful of the lot (with the possible exception of Ewoks). In his battle against the Gorn captain, Kirk remembers how to make gun powder. I doubt that most military officers now would recognize the ingredients and be able to make gun power, and what's more, gun powder is obsolete in the 23rd century.

Also based on what I've seen of Klingon personal combat I wasn't that impressed.

Enterprise E
Bridge Officer
Posts: 165
Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2006 4:30 pm
Location: UFP Earth

Post by Enterprise E » Sun Aug 20, 2006 3:54 pm

I would say that Starfleet has the best technology in terms of weaponry, barring vehicles which are not allowed for this match. They have comm badges for communications and tricorders to scan for enemies. Their phaser rifles can be set to wide field, pulse fire, and maybe even pulse auto/triple shot fire. I'm not certain about that last one, though. And their sidearms are capable of wide field settings and vaporizing people. The only real strike against them is their mentality. They often times aren't bloodlusted enough to use their technology to full advantage, though we haven't seen much of them in combat, only a field hospital and an undersupplied garrison on a world that wasn't of the greatest importance.

The next candidate, the Jem'Hadar, are biologically engineered to be warriors and they can cloak, and from the dialogue, it seems to be based on their own genetics and not on external technology so that definately helps them. The fact that they de-shroud before they attack, though, does mean that despite their training, they have certain rules about combat. I don't doubt that they have very good combat training. But they also have limitations placed upon themselves that would keep them from utilizing their advantages to full effect.

The only other real candidates are the Clonetroopers. They have shown themselves to be competent on occasion. They have killed Jedi, but many of them were caught off guard, or were young children. Their weapons are not necessarily as powerful as Federation phasers, but they can kill people. Their armor, however, is their weak point. It seems to be of little use against blasters and while it is unknown if it has the same visual limitations as Stormtrooper helmets, there has been little mention, that I know of, of anything that would help them see better. They are the only one of the three competent forces that are willing to use their technology and tactics to full effect and have no rules about honor or morality that seem to hold them back in battle.

Note: I'd love to see what MACOs from Enterprise would do with 24th century phaser technology. They seem to be some of the best troops of either universe.

Grandtheftcow
Candidate
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 5:01 pm
Location: Canada

Post by Grandtheftcow » Tue Aug 22, 2006 5:43 pm

For their effectiveness despite a lack of sophisticated technology I gotta give it to the Ewoks.

After all they did mop the floor with the emperors little boy scout group down on Endor and did it with rocks, spears, arrows, and plot devices.

User avatar
AnonymousRedShirtEnsign
Jedi Knight
Posts: 380
Joined: Thu Aug 17, 2006 10:05 pm
Location: Six feet under the surface of some alien world

Post by AnonymousRedShirtEnsign » Tue Aug 22, 2006 10:19 pm

I attribute the Ewok/ rebel victory to imperial incompetence and arrogance more that anything. Well that and Chewy capturing an AT-ST and giving the good guys some much needed firepower since they didn't bring any rocket launchers or grenades, and they need their charges for blowing up the shield generator.

Grandtheftcow
Candidate
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 5:01 pm
Location: Canada

Post by Grandtheftcow » Wed Aug 23, 2006 9:20 pm

If a miget punches you in the nuts will you claim it was due to the incompetence of your pants?

Before Chewie and his two little brothers there carjacked that AT-ST the Ewoks did a fine job putting splinters into the crotch plates of those stormtroppers using pointy sticks and arrows. Besides your origional post stated that the forces wouldn't have vehicle support, likely the only thing the Imperials had to turn the battle in their favour at the time.

I wouldn't bet on Ewoks in an open field but in the same enviroment they seem to be able to stand up to any modernized Star Wars force.

Nonamer
Jedi Knight
Posts: 269
Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2006 7:05 pm
Location: Outer Space

Post by Nonamer » Wed Aug 23, 2006 10:12 pm

Grandtheftcow wrote:If a miget punches you in the nuts will you claim it was due to the incompetence of your pants?
What? Won't you be the incompetent one for letting such a thing happen? What does the pants have to do with anything?

User avatar
AnonymousRedShirtEnsign
Jedi Knight
Posts: 380
Joined: Thu Aug 17, 2006 10:05 pm
Location: Six feet under the surface of some alien world

Post by AnonymousRedShirtEnsign » Thu Aug 24, 2006 12:49 am

I call it Imperial incompetence because them losing the ground battle on Endor is like the a division of Army rangers getting beat by Native Americans from 300 years ago. It is pathetic and it shows how bad imperial stormtroopers really are. If they fought real stormtroopers (the Nazi ones that is) they would get clobbered. In fact the early part of WWII is an excellent example of how having superior technology should make you almost unbeatable on the battle field (hell, the whole of the war actually, especially in the Pacific theater). Germany used tanks against Poland's cavalry and slaughtered them.

The thickest stormtrooper
Candidate
Posts: 3
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2006 5:18 am
Location: Oregon

The Gem Hadar are the bad guys, they have to win.

Post by The thickest stormtrooper » Sun Sep 10, 2006 3:58 am

Would it be very exciting if the heroes weren't pinned down, waiting for the cavalry to come? If Federation security guards could fight their way out of most situations, the show would be boring.
My pants are more competent than any of yours will ever be, so competent, in fact, that a midget (with a 'd' as in 'dumbass') could not damage my manhood.

Post Reply