sonofccn wrote:Mr. Oragahn wrote:I argued that the style was better at offering solutions, not just that it was simply cinematically superior (although I think it also is).
Then I must ask why you acted as if I'd failed to read your post and began talking extensively regarding the cinematic style as opposed to addressing my argument.
I didn't see any valid argument on your side. You didn't consider the OT stylized action, notably in ANH, of importance. I argued that it was important. You claimed that the performance of troops in the OT, notably in ANH, was just as poor as in TCWS, which is just totally false. I admitted it wasn't stellar, but I pointed out that not only there were mitigating factors explaining the misses, but also pointed at cases in TCWS where the performance is so many times worse than anything you get in the old movies.
In a way, it doesn't surprise me that TCWS is such a snore. It couldn't care less about characters and the plots. It is a logical continuation, say a culmination of the boring action scenes in the prequels, in ways, even alluded in ROTJ, when Lucas overreacted to TESB and dumbed down the enemy's troops. In a way, when producing his presquels, Lucas couldn't decide if he should have taken his own stuff sufficiently seriously at times, and make it lightly comical during split seconds, and sort of goofed up and fell onto extremes, with his main characters supposed emboiled inside some considerably dramatic story, while legions of cretins fighting on both sides. That, and loads of forced humour.
It didn't help to have the droids in the prequels so dumb and inept, although at times clones were acting well enough, aside from the completely absurd strategies adopted by various general commands. But TCWS was sheer absurdity on overload. It's just that. It produces unbelievable situations, which have more to do with Looney Toons than some action movie. Anyone expecting me to take this kind of nonsense at face value has to be drunk.
TCWS is best taken as an overall indication of what happened. You don't focus on the details but on the major steps, described in succinct and vague enough ways. For example, you don't pick a ruler to measure asteroids and bolt length, you just consider that a separatist fleet considered that an asteroid field would protect their sixes and that they could fire at Republic ships from the fringe of that field. You really ought to keep things as general as possible.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:The rationalization in ANH totally holds.
No it doesn't I'm afraid. The stormtroopers didn't suffer a "flash bang", they have better armor and face covering helms and yet suffered horrendious accuracy.
The corridor was soon littered with corpses despite the troopers had entered the corridor under fire from people who had their vision hampered, rifles almost on the hips. Considering the kind of accuracy one is to expect when firing any semi-automatic weapon from that position, it actually turns out to be roughly acceptable. What was not was the fact that they didn't hold their weapons in a way to obtain a better aim.
Further the second firefight I highlighted for you involved no "flash bang" no smoke with the two parties standing stock still out in the open a tiny handul of meters from each other and they couldn't hit each other with any sense of regularity.
Then rewatch the scene. The three stooges running away from the imperial troopers had perhaps been formerly fighting them earlier on. Which means breathing smoke from vaporized metal or plastic and their senses still affected by the bangs and flashes. Now, even if that is not true, figure out that as they decide to spin on their heels and face the troopers about to pass the corner, they barely have time to aim that a bolt already strikes the end of the corridor they're looking at and literally bathes the whole place in a vivid white and pink light:
We also note, but with some difficulty (and not on this picture), that the stormtroopers come out of a corridor section which was filled with some smoke.
There also is the possibility that they didn't have orders to exterminate every single Alderaanian trooper but push them back and capture as many as possible. Their firing barrages would therefore make a shit ton of sense here.
It's obvious that killing all of them would have made any interrogation hard to complete. And it's not like Vader was on their heels, wanting to recover the damn plans.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Not only that, but when the heroes were escaping the Death Star, aside from them benefiting character shields, the troopers had orders not to kill them (otherwise Tarkin's very risky gamble would have failed).
Would it not be more logical and the least complex theroy to assume Tarkin would merely filter and limit the forces who were in position to stop the "Rebel Agents" rather than assume Stormtroopers are all complicit in a "secret" plan.
Who said secret plan, as in, some big convoluted master plan? First, Tarkin has no mustache to twirl, secondly a mere push'em back but don't kill would have been enough. Eventually, an order like force them to surrender would also work, considering that there was zero reason the troopers would believe the guys in question could ever leave the battle station to begin with.
The problem with that is the lack of use of the stun setting. But that's been a problem since Lucas penned that part. Being under fire from stun bolts would have been plain enough to convince Solo and co to run away at any chance. Although the use of normal fire is a far more convincing as well. If we make a parallel with modern firearms, many security forces are encouraged to use their weapons in ways to incapacitate the enemy. Considering we've seen that a pistol in ROTJ can leave a mark on a shoulder but certainly not kill, it's possible that low yields could be used. However, the violence of th explosions on the walls certainly doesn't agree with that.
Perhaps the stun setting is very short ranged, said range less than ten meters at best, and not being just about accuracy but also about potency. It would certainly explain the use of the normal fire mode. Coupled with some order of push'em back the troopers would have to execute, it sorts of work.
Again, this is not to say that if they had orders to kill, they're suddenly turn into exceptional marksmen either!
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Same stuff with the TIE fighters.
Seriously? Again my proposal would be the simplier solution and wouldn't require Tie pilots to both be fanatical slave-soldiers as well as having expert and detailed knowledge of the MF to know how to inflict real damage without disabling the craft.
There's quite something that doesn't work well with your idea. Your plan requires Tarkin being capable of precognition and being a god of probabilities as to gamble that the number of military spacecrafts he sends at the cargo ship, with orders to destroy it, will actually fail, and that the fighters won't hit shit against a large target that flies in a straight path, at distances of less than 100 meters!
Can't see a problem here?
Oh, oops, here's a TIE pilot who actually managed to hit the same lumbering cargo many times and put a hole through the engines. The aft section blew up, the air vented and the crew's dead now. Guess they won't be going to Alderaan any time soon now. Oh boy Tarkin is sooo going to be pissed off.
It's not like it was that hard for the TIEs to actually take down the ship, considering that it had already taken some damage, including internal, early in the skirmish, and that the first run had a TIE pilot fix all of his opening salvo on the back of the MF!
It is possible and even likely that Tarkin had a small task force sent on purpose, but the idea that he'd take the risk of having them behave as to destroy his only card in this extremely important gamble is absurd.
It's also interesting that after the TIEs manage to hit the MF clean, get through the shields and hit some internal systems, they suddenly become totally impotent.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:In the OT, it's really in ROTJ that Lucas turned the stormtroopers into idiots against teddybears (instead of wookiees).
Against teddy bears yes, Ewoks didn't appear until then, but he'd already amply demostrated Stormtroopers were ineffective and tactically inept. Which even you haven't denied merely have attempted to "explain" and "justify".
I don't recall claiming stormies to be inept and ineffective. Please quote me doing so, and if you find any such reference, please provide the context and the bit I was replying to.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:This is just not good. You pick a case of the most acceptable performances ever seen:
I'm afraid it is. You speak broadly of the clone wars. This is an episode from that series. Ergo it is valid evidence which can be administered, weighed and dissected.
You completely miss my point. You searched for a case where the fight actually makes more sense, and that against all of what the show has already shown on the other side of the spectrum before season 4 (yeah, you actually had to go look that far to start finding good stuff?), like if former cases of complete and total suckfail were irrelevant, that despite the fact that they're the most glaring ones and that all this mess started since the first episode of the series.
I consider the battle of Plan of Dissent one of the higher showings, and it is
nothing new as far as I'm concerned.
I didn't deny that once in a while Lucas would actually give the audience some decent battle. What I said is that all those stupid cases of bad aim litter the series and their standard of performance is way lower than anything we got in the OT by far. Denying this is not going to get you any points in my book. I actually happen to watch the videos and I do know what I'm talking about.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:troopers of both sides are clearly separated by hundreds of meters in most cases, they're running (so are most of the ennemy troops, trying to fire while going in the other direction), and there's a shit ton of fog (which in this case also happens to help explaining the eventual shortcomings in the aiming department), and despite the barrage of fire that is quite random under such conditions, we see that some clonetroopers get picked down the moment they put a foot on the ground.
Oh I'm under no delusion that Umbara does anything but make the Tantiv IV look like a day at the beach in comparison. But it was you were made the sweeping claim that combat ranges and accuracy was always superior in the OT to which I responded with evidence from the series itself.
You picked one line out of context. I was comparing ranges and accuracies between the OT and the TCWS examples I had already provided.
At no time I implied that you wouldn't find favourable cases. Trouble is that TCWS is a series where aim, accuracy, efficiency and tactical acumen are dictated by plot to unfathomable heights, it's just irritating.
It is a kiddy show (most of the time, even on that GL cannot be consistent) and concessions had to be made, and he made them, notably to fit with a more cartoonish style in absolutely every single department.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Now, it would be much more honest and actually go look for the known shitty cases, such as the ones I referenced.
So, if I am to understand you, you are only willing to debate the aformentioned universe if before hand I am restricted to evidence you deem to support you? What kind of debate is that?
No. I'm simply taking what I know of the OT and looking at cases of TCWS that are beyond retarded. They are things I could stomach in the OT, and I also gave the reasons why, but it is totally impossible in TCWS when the performance of clonetroopers and droids is completely pants on head retarded. Clones go from mmkay to complete lolwut, while droids oscillate between the usual FUUUUUCK typical of TPM and "they couldn't even hit a planet in front of them" type of lame action.
And for some reason, Lucas openly wanting his droids to be such bad shots is somewhat supposed to make the action interesting and create an immersing tension...
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Another problem of TCWS being that instead of being expandable and exploiting that to produce tension, GL focuses on very small skirmishes and each single clonetrooper becomes a "Character", with the must-have character shields 99% of the time.
Well for starters clones don't have the highest survival rate.
Redshirts. Without the red. Nor the shirts.
In other words, complete anons in most cases. Those who survive generally are at least recurring over two or three episodes.
Second the numbers are not particuarly smaller than were used in the OT. I mean come on ANH was won with two dozen Rebel fighters.
Against defenses completely inadequate to do anything worthwhile, but which made sense in universe. And of course, of those fighter pilots, only three came out alive, with the help of the smuggler and Ben.
What I say is that by having small battles, Lucas even prevents himself from being able to show large casualties that would fit with the idea of ID-less clones = expandable, and droid squads make for totally insipid action.
I mean, seriously, how many episodes of stupid lame jokes, crappy action with flatline tension can you stomach?
I can't. I could watch half a dozen ANH-like movies and enjoy them. However, a season of Wallpaper Laser Bolt Action? Not so much.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:But it only gets worse when it is the super duper troopers who actually can't hit shit, completely failing to be convincing as superior warriors capable of holding the mark against the 200:1 ratio!
Well its hard to believe Stormtroopers are elite warriors of the Empire as well. But that's my point, bad aiming has been constant since the OT.
The claim of anything elite about those stormtroopers came from ANH and ROTJ. In ANH, Lucas had Ben specifically point out that the stormtroopers had good aim. So either he was full of it, or the misses have to be explained.
As for ROTJ, Ewoks and dumb tactics syndrome thank you. Which is precisely why the ground fight in ROTJ is the part I dislike the most, while the space battle is probably the best one ever done.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Seriously?
Yes.
Well you have very bad sight then, I can't say anything else. I wonder if it's really worth my time arguing against what is nothing more than an obtuse opinion from someone who wants to deny all the bangs, flashes and smoke of the ANH skirmish, yet deny the very short range, bad accuracy and complete lack of mitigating factors from the cases I listed in the part you responded to. We're not getting anywhere and I am right. There's no way to claim the contrary bar some massive lack of honesty at this point.
Hey, see the picture I put above? Nothing like that happens in the cases I'm speaking of. Yet somehow you ain't seeing any difference. lol
Mr. Oragahn wrote:See the first time the trooper carrying the gatling shoots his thing at a group of B1s located like 25 meters ahead. The sequence is completely butchered in the sense that the droids are suddenly ten meters away from the trooper and the small group of them has barely suffered any casualties. Wow, with a repeated gun. A pal jumps into the action and helps blasting most of the droids. Seconds later, a group of SBDs fire from roughly 25~30 meters away and the three clones can't even hit one with two auto rifles firing on auto and the gatling. That while there's a total lack of flashes and explosions, in play daylight.
Then comes the infamous scene I've been talking about, featuring the same three clones and SBDs, which despite the snail-like pace, manage to be standing like 40 meters behind the troopers... a distance that they'll close so fast apparently that the last of the three trooper has barely jumped off the boulder that the SDBs are already on the edge of the same boulder.
Without a link I can't "see" what your talking about however from what you described I see nothing which couldn't have happened with a Stormtrooper. As demostrated he and his buddies can be firing in volley togather and not hit a cluster of men standing smack dab in front of and down the hall a little ways.
Lame copout. Better to claim bad memories if you want to. Show me a stormtrooper from either ANH or ROTJ missing at such a short range, while there's no doubt that he's giving all liberty to dispose of his target as he may see fit. Don't forget about the eventual hampering environmental conditions either (like flashes, loud bangs, smoke, etc.).
Let's see you find an example of stormtroopers on a mission to kill yet unable to even hit a man standing up two meters from him.
Good luck.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Now I really want to know why in the world I should pay this kind of retarded scenography any attention?
Because its T-canon and because you haven't been able to prove its dramaticly worse than observed in the OT.
Like I give a shit. It's a cartoon, and silly things happen in this cartoon. I can't be asked to take at face value the content of a show clearly built along the rules of a cartoon against a live action movie or a CGI movie trying to look realistic enough.
The intent by the creators is so different that it's absurd to expect something like that from me or anyone.
You can continue to repeat like a broken record that it is T-canon, I'll continue to tell you that the show is written and shot in a way that doesn't stand to scrutiny as much as the movies do, and doesn't even try to. This was the case with the former Clone Wars cartoon, which was completely nuts on the other side of the spectrum.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:In comparison, the vast majority of the action in ANH takes place with heroes, rebels and stormies using their weapon on semi-auto only and achieving higher ratios of hit vs miss
1. Considering weapons a generation previously were capable of full auto I always felt the more tepid blaster fire should be regarded as a byproduct of the era it was produced in rather than Stormtroopers being too mentally challenged to operate their own guns.
2. Even at the slower rate they are still firing fairly quickly, even more so when firing in tactically obsolete vollies, and should not be suffering the accuracy issues at the ranges observed.
3. If you really wish to get into a bolt count you'll still have to accept a stormtrooper isn't anymore effective than a clonetrooper since they'll both hit their target at roughly the same frequency. One merely wastes more pretty lights in the process.
Even when bolts miss in ANH, they make such a mess that you can feel the danger to them.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Solo has a gun that makes so ridiculously overpowered explosions that it's again an excuse for the troopers not being able to focus properly on the action;
You are welcome to provide clips but IIRC the only place it makes a notably big blast would be the docking bay scene, well after the Stormtroopers began firing on him if I recall, which is hardly the last time he faces them.
Pardon? You now want me to provide clips from ANH? Really? Are you kidding me? You'd be the only old debater around this place not owning a copy of ANH in any form whatsoever.
I mean com'on, there's gotta be a better defense than "I can't find a clip of one of the most well known and most debated sequences of ANH so what you say is shit."
Especially since you clearly are looking at the video, otherwise you wouldn't attempt making such detailed counter arguments based on how stormies poorly do.
Or... you're only working from memories. If true, you're welcome to say so and then explain to me why should I consider your opinion more valid than mine while I actually
do watch the videos before pushing a claim when you don't?
Mr. Oragahn wrote:the other excuse being that Vader probably wanted those guys captured, not killed, and that the stormies' standard procedure is to lay a barrage of fire in order to force the ennemy to surrender before attempting paralyzing shots).
Evidence for either claim?
Evidence for orders the largely silent troopers carry out? Evidence of an idea that actually works with the plot?
Damn, you requests get more and more extravagant and silly.
It's not like I'm claiming Vader turned gay by ANH either!
Mr. Oragahn wrote:In TESB, the troopers' shots were landing much closer to Calrissian and Organa, despite the greater distance, their lower number, them being shot at by two "hidden" people and not just one shooting while running in the other direction, and that while walking through a thick cloud cast by R2.
Well provide the clip in question and we can start comparing how close bolts got to thier intended target but considering both Lando and Leia lived to the end of the Saga this is hardly proof of good accuracy.
Geez. I'm not going to provide a clip for fucking Empire. If you really don't trust me despite the fact that I'm just describing what my video file shows me, you'll have to look for one on youtube.
I could understand asking for evidence from an obscure episode of TCWS, but not from the damned OT. If you think I'm talking shit then so be it.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:It's not like the aim of the special commando droids was any better. That, however, isn't surprising as GL decided that they were disfunctional. However, the troopers standing in the door opening and shooting at the two droids standing behind the console like five meters ahead was another blazing trait of genius action.
On par with Rebels and Stormtroopers exchanging firing without cover in a corridor.
Haha lol no.
Didn't you read? I said five meters. No flashes, no smoke, no bangs. No reason to pull punches. Clone punks firing at two droids standing up behind a console. Can't hit shit. Heck, if the commando droids have displayed the same kind of accuracy GL arbitrarily dialed up as to create tension minutes earlier, those clone troopers would have been long dead before they could even rise their guns.
If I could play both clips side by side you'd actually see how absurd your statement is. Yes, the performance isn't always good in ANH, but it simply isn't as poor as the example (another one) I picked.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Stormtroopers never were that dumb.
Actually the second firefight in ANH is dumber since both parties escew any attempt of cover to stand and shoot at each other like 18th century soldiers.
Sort of understandable when you sit in the theater, since the stormies were just around the corner. Would they keep moving in the same direction, one split second later and all the rebels would have offered the imperial troopers would have been their exposed backs.
Now, surely enough, one could have attempted to push it a few meters ahead to that perpendicular corridor. Another could have decided to dive and offer the least profile possible, eventually trying to rotate and point his gun at the coming troopers. Far from good either. Chalk it up to panic. Stormtroopers clearly were following the order of moving forth no matter what.
They still moved as to have two men on each side of the corridor, most of them advancing while partially ducking, while more troopers came from behind.
The problem, even that poorer performance doesn't reach the abyss of utter nonsense that we get in Rookies for example.
That's just silly. Most of the Rookie episode has both sides missing each other repeatedly at ranges shorter than a dozen meters, many times without any cover taken, without even the soldiers attempting to lower their profile. Then at random points, they suddenly do take cover, then suddenly they have a super aim, they even take their time posing and talking in front of droids before shooting them in the face, and suddenly this roller coaster of nonsense pulls you through another dive into insanity seconds later, with goons on both sides unable to hit each other at distance of something like five meters, more or less.
It's so all over the place, it cannot be taken seriously. There's not even a single hand to seize as to rationalize any of this.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:It's a show that dares making Jar Jar the hero of a complete episode for crissake!
Which has nothing to do with our arguments. Like the show or dislike the show it has nothing to do with engagment ranges and accuracy.
It completely does. In order for Jar Jar to be a hero, the enemies have to be 500% inept and pathetic. It's TPM on overdrive.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:I mean com'on even the makers aren't even taking their shit seriously enough.
Yeah...its a continuation to a throwback to the seriels of flash gordon and buck rogers if they took it serious I'd be worried.
Campiness doen't preclude taking your work seriously enough as to allow the audience to immerse itself into it, you know?
But regardless its beside the point, the episodes have been made and we can only dissect them and compare them to the OT.
If they were made as to be realistic, I would. Obviously, they're not. So why pretend?
And if that stuff is your cup of tea the best to you.
Well, if that's all I get when I actually take time to find you nice videos... :(
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Let's not blow that out of proportions. I didn't say he's betraying anything.
However you want to phrase it you have claimed a notable difference between the OT and the clonewars. That the latter protrayal is notably inferior of the galaxy far far away in such things as accuracy and engagment range.
Yes, he's clearly following more cartoony rules. I didn't say he didn't have a right to do so. I'm merely pointing out the difference of style in the way he handles the action, rythm, effects, etc.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:I said styles are different and this includes GL orchestrating the battles in a silly fashion without even the same amount of effort he had put once in his first movies
And I'm not seeing this "effort" on GL part during the OT. I see some stylisitc choices, the ANH battle is beautifully filmed, but none of these myraid explanations you argue exist to "excuse" the poor performance seen during the OT.
Yeah sure, I guess explosions, flashes, smoke, plot related reasons and all that stuff just don't count.
Have a nice day.