Kane Starkiller wrote:Now as for "Who is like God arbour " and his points:
1. ISDs are built in shipyards
How does this help your argument? Empire managed to build a Death Star WITHOUT any supporting shipyard on an arbitrary position. Already preexisitng shipyards will only make ISDs even easier to construct.
As I have tried to point out several times, there is a difference between the Death Star and a Star Destroyer.
[url=http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=4903#4903]Who is like God arbour[/url] already wrote:Maybe they don't need yards for the Death Star, because it is so big, that it can support itself, so big, that all industrial and other support facilities (factories, habitations for the building crew etc.), that are necessary on location, could be placed inside it.
That wouldn't be possible for a substantially smaller ship. These facilities would be placed around the ship (or on other bases or on planets) and compose at large that, what we would call a yard, respectively a yard complex.
Of course, that doesn't mean, that the building of the Death Star wouldn't need these facilities - or that it would need comparatively fewer facilities. That's not what I have tried to argue.
What I have tried to argue is, that that is the reason, why the Death Star, as from a certain progress, wouldn't need an yard anymore and could be finished with facilities, which are placed in the already finished parts of it.
With a Star Destroyer, which doesn't have the place for these facilities, that is not possible. Such a ship can leave the yard not before it is almost finished because till then, it depends on the support of the yard.
Why is that important, if the facilities are needed regardless?
Because, if the facilities are in immediate vicinity of the ship, which is build, the haulage distance for bulky workpieces are shortened.
Imagine for example, that a factory on the surface of a planet manufacture a bulky workpiece out of its raw materials. Then, this bulky workpiece has to be transported to the ship, which is build far away from the planet.
By contrast, if only the raw materials, which are far easier to transport, because they aren't bulky, are transported to the ship and further processed there, the bulky workpieces don't have to be transported that far. Maximal from one end of the ship to the other end.
That's why it is more effectiv to have the manufacturing factories as near as possible to the ship, which is build. That is substantially cheaper.
The same applies for the building crew. It is cheaper, if they can live in immediate vicinity of the ship, which is build - or even in it, as soon as it is able to support habitations, than to transport them several times every day to and fro to their habitations on a planet far away from the ship to build.
That's why it would be inefficient to build smaller ships out of an yard.
But on the other side, if smaller ships are only build in yards, the number of ships, which are build parallel, are limited to the number of yards.
If they are build out of the yard, the transportation costs are raising extremly.
Kane Starkiller wrote:2. Not enough manpower
Those crewmember estimate is completely inadequate since at those numbers Death Star's would be completely vacant.
Assuming one deck is 5m tall Death Star has 32,000 decks with and average surface of about 10^10m2. Assuming there is one crewmember every 100 meters that translates into 1/31415m-2 density. For the Death Star that is 10 billion crewmembers. Looking at the films Death Stars are far more crowded than that with crew filling the corridors wherever our heroes go.
I haven't estimate the crew of the Death Star. I have the numbers from
Wookieepedia, which says, that they are from
Star Wars: Behind the Magic. As far as I know, that is canon too.
But I understand your concerns.
The question would be, if your objection is correct. Does the Death Star really have 32'000 decks? And the decks, it has, are they realy only five meter tall?
We have seen in Return of the Jedi, that the Death Star has a really low density. Fighters were able to fly through the bowels of it to its reactor core, which was in a huge bulb. That could mean, that the crew is mainly distributed in the higher decks and that there is almost no crew at the core.
Our heroes weren't even approximately in the near of the core.
Unless you think, that the compactor is placed in the near of the core, so that the trash can be conducted through half of the Death Star every time, it makes a jump to hyperspeed and, following the standard procedure, jettison it before.
Kane Starkiller wrote:Not to mention that an Empire of quadrillions will not have a problem of crewing it's ships.
From Star Wars 6 - Return of the Jedi:
- JERJERROD: Lord Vader, this is an unexpected pleasure. We're honored by your presence.
VADER: You may dispense with the pleasantries, Commander. I'm here to put you back on schedule.
The commander turns ashen and begins to shake.
JERJERROD: I assure you, Lord Vader, my men are working as fast as they can.
VADER: Perhaps I can find new ways to motivate them.
JERJERROD: I tell you, this station will be operational as planned.
VADER: The Emperor does not share your optimistic appraisal of the situation.
JERJERROD: But he asks the impossible. I need more men.
VADER: Then perhaps you can tell him when he arrives.
I don't know, what you think, what this quote implies, but I have thought, that this implies a labour shortage. It seems, JERJERROD can't simply ask at the next employment center (or the responsible Staff-Officer) for more men. I think, he would have done it, if it were possible, before he would have left the given shedule. No, he has to ask the Emperor, what - in my opinion - heavily implies, that manpower is in short supply.
Kane Starkiller wrote:3. Number of imperial worlds
Number of million Imperial worlds being million is given in ANH novels so that is a FACT my friend.
Maybe you can be a little bit more exact. Where exactly is it given. Please give a quote.
Kane Starkiller wrote:4. Empire "wasted" their time on building Death Stars
You provided zero evidence that this is the case.
I have written:
Who is like God arbour wrote:Kane Starkiller wrote:2046 wrote:The Empire probably has 100,000 major worlds, compared to 100-150 for the Federation. Even if Federation technology allows an output ten times greater than that for Imperial worlds, it's still a 100-to-1 in favor of the Empire. The fact that they wasted their time building Death Stars instead of making uberfleets is not the Federation's problem by any means.
How can you declare something for which you provided not a shred of evidence a "fact"? Do you forget that DS1 was built secretly as was DS2? That certainly doesn't imply that entire Imperial military industrial capacity was "wasted" on Death Stars.
The Empire has million worlds and who knows how many "uncharted settlements" so the fact that we don't see millions of ships lumped in one place is hardly a surprise.
How can you declare something for which you provided not a shred of evidence a "fact"?
And 2046 hasn't implied, that the entire Imperial military industrial capacity was "wasted" on Death Stars. He has only said, that "they wasted their time building Death Stars instead of making uberfleets." And that is correct.
How many Star Destroyers could they have build instead of the Death Star?
And, if the Empire would have, as you say, million worlds and who knows how many "uncharted settlements", what use would have one or two Death Stars?
I know, my English isn't the best, but I have tried to say, that 2046 has not said, that the entire Imperial military industrial capacity was "wasted" on Death Stars.
Please for what exactly shall I provide evidence?
Kane Starkiller wrote:Who is like God arbour wrote:But, as I have said already too, the Emperial task force at Endor, as well as the Emperial task force at Hoth, was to small to prevent, that the rebels could have escaped. What is this for a trap, in which one let its prey escape? Please adress this objection!!!
This is no objection. If a criminal escapes a group of 5 squad cars does that mean the police doesn't have any more? What planet do you live on. Have you provided any evidence as to how many ships there were on Endor? Of course not.
I would like to give the question back. What planet do you live on?
There is a difference between cops who have met accidentally a criminal, who is able to escape their ad hoc car chase and a situation, in which cops have exactly knowledge, when the criminal is at a certain place and are able to arrange a trap. There would be enough cops to prevent, that the criminal could easily escape.
OK, that doesn't have to mean, that they can actual prevent, that the criminal escapes, but that wouldn't be because a lack of manpower but a lack of competence.
Both, at Hoth, as well as Endor, there were never enough ships, to prevent that the rebels could have escaped. Right from the start, the Emperial task forces were to weak. To blockade a planet, like Hoth, or even a whole system, like Endor. There would be by far more ships necessary.
The fact stays, that, if the Empire would have wanted to trap the Alliance effectively, they would have needed more ships. And if they would have the ships, they would have send them to Hoth or Endor. Conclusion: they don't have substantial more ships.
In addition to
argumentation of CrippledVulture, I'd like to present the following quote from Star Wars 6 - Return of the Jedi:
- The Emperor turns to face Luke.
EMPEROR (angry): Everything that has transpired has done so according to my design. (indicates Endor) Your friends up there on the Sanctuary Moon...
Luke reacts. The Emperor notes it.
EMPEROR (cont): ...are walking into a trap. As is your Rebel fleet! It was I who allowed the Alliance to know the location of the shield generator. It is quite safe from your pitiful little band. An entire legion of my best troops awaits them.
Luke's look darts from the Emperor to Vader and, finally, to the sword in the Emperor's hand.
EMPEROR: Oh...I'm afraid the deflector shield will be quite operational when your friends arrive.
Please don't pretend, that the Emperor has not known, that the Alliance is about to attack the Death Star. He has not only known it, he has even designed it.
Kane Starkiller wrote:Secondly Rebels were obviously tracking the movements of the fleet so they would know if they suddenly started converging towards Endor.
Do you really think, that they would be able to notice it, if from a fleet, that is supposed to consist of several million ships, some thousand ships would converging towards Endor.
As I have said already, even thousand ships and more would be only an infinitesimal part of the Emperial Fleet.
The Alliance could notice this only, if they would have spies at key positions. But if they would have such spies, they would have known about the ships, which were actual at Endor, too. Unless the Empire has eliminated these spies. But then, the Empire could have send as many ships as it would have wanted.
The only logical conlusion, I see, is, that the Emperial Fleet doesn't consist of million of ships and that the task force at Hoth and Endor was all, it could have afforded to send.
Kane Starkiller wrote:Who is like God arbour wrote:We could see in chapter 30 of the movie the whole fleet of the Alliance, as they have jumped to hyperspeed. That allone would be enough to contradict your quote from the ROTJ novel. And we could see the battle at Endor out of the windows from the chamber of the Emperor.
Maybe you want to bother to provide evidence, that there were more ships, than commonly assumed?
How can it contradict the novel which says that more ships extend BEYOND HUMAN VISION? Therefore we COULDN'T see it all in the films.
Because, at this time, the fleet was in movement. You know, that if I stand at the locomotive of a train and can't see at the same moment the end of the train, I can regardless count the wagons, when the train is driving past me.
And, as we could see the fleet out of the window of the chamber of the Emperor, we could see, that the fleet hasn't extended beyound human vision, because we could see, that still in human vision, there were no further ships but the ships at the battle in the centre of the field of vision.
If the fleet would have extended beyound human vision, we would have seen ships all over the field of vision till they wouldn't be recognizable anymore.
Kane Starkiller wrote:Who is like God arbour wrote:Correct, we - or at least I - have no idea.
But we know, that the Emperial Navy had have a strict order and command chain. Even if the Emperor, the head of this order and command chain, has died, it would persist.
* For example, the forces of the USA wouldn't come apart, only because the president, the Supreme Commander of the Armed Forces, would die.
* Another example, when Stalin has died, the Red Army has not come appart, although Stalin was power-addicted and has created a cult of personality, not unlike the Emporer in Star Wars.
A strict chain of command? How come that Vader was subservient to Grand Moff Tarkin and yet clearly above Grand Moff Jerjerrod? We are clearly talking about Emperor positioning his trusted men in positions of power and all that could easily crumble once he is dead.
As you sid: You have no idea. So how can you claim any kind of contradictions with former fleet numbers if you don't know what happened?
As I have already asked: Where are all the other ships of the Emperial Fleet? Such an Imperial StarDestroyer don't get lost in nirvana - and a fortiori not thousands or even millions of them.
I know only, what I have seen in the movies. If you know, why all the ships, we have never seen, but you claim to be there nevertheless, get lost, please enlighten me.
Kane Starkiller wrote:Who is like God arbour wrote:If there is no noteworthy difference between the industrial capacity before an event and after the event, I can very well compare both conditions. And the death of an Emperor is not the collapse of the Empire. As I have said already, only an infinitesimal part of the Emperial Fleet would have been destroyed at Endor, if it would really consist of thousands or even millions of ships. Where are the rest of the remainder of the Emperial Navy and why would the death of the Emperor affect the industrial capacity in a noteworthy extent?
The Empire DID collapse whether you want to admit it or not.
OK, but even if the Empire as a political body did collapse, why would that influense noteworthy the economy? The infrastructure, all the mines, factories, yards, manpower etc. would still be there, nevertheless, and only waiting for the next customer - the New Republic or Remnants of the Empire.
Kane Starkiller wrote:
Who is like God arbour wrote:Please don't only repeat an already adressed argument of yours, if you don't address the raised objections. The question is, how far the Thrawn trilogy is superseded by higher or equal canon, which imply other Fleet strengths?
- For example, why would the Emperial task force at Endor consist of so few ships, if the Emperial Fleet could have assigned thousands of ships without problems, if there would really be so many of them? That wasn't even enough ships, to prevent the fleet of the rebellion to escape. Admiral Ackbar has already started to order the withdrawal. He has seen the Emperial task force but, as it seems, has thought, that a withdrawal was possible nevertheless.
- Another example: why would the Emperial task force at Hoth consist of so few ships, if the Emperial Fleet could have assigned thousands of ships without problems, if there would really be so many of them? That wasn't even enough ships, to prevent the rebels to escape from Hoth.
The movies haven't left the impression of huge fleets, consisting of millions of ships. Only some exaggeratory EU novels have created such impression. But someone, who hasn't read any EU novels - like me - can't recognize the Star Wars Universe from the movies in the tales, which are told about some of these EU novels. They describe in my opinion another universe, which have only superficial relations to the universe, decribed by the movies. In my understanding of canon, that disqualified such EU novels as part of the original universe.
Please don't misapprehend me. I have nothing against continuative novels as long as they respect the spirit of the original. It's possible to explain every bollocks and every change. But that's not, what a continuative novel is supposed to do. If I want to read about Star Wars, I expect a story, in which I can recognize the Star Wars, I know.
How many ships were there on Endor? It streched beyond human vision remember? Mon Mothma reports that Imperial fleet is scattered across the galaxy in a vain effort to engage the Rebels. Did that escape your attention?
Imperial fleet at Hoth had the task of capturing a group of Rebels and they brought ships they could spare and thought neccesary. You don't send ALL your police cars for any group of criminals do you?
Secondly your opinion that EU doesn't represent the movie is just that: your opinion.
The movie, even the first one, introduced us to a galaxy spanning civilization that is 25,000 years old can build 160km long ships that can blow up planets. Nothing about million ships contradicts that.
Your first point is already adressed [see above].
No, I don't send ALL my police cars for any group of criminals. But if the group is considered as really dangerous, I would send as many cars, I think necessary to be sure, that I can catch them.
You know, that the rebels weren't only shoplifters, do you?
There was a real desideratum to extinguish them.
And as I have already asked too, maybe you can provide me with quotes, which prove, that the movie, even the first one, introduced us to a galaxy spanning civilization that is 25,000 years old.
I can only remember a few quotes in the first novel:
- Tarkin: "Events in this region of the galaxy will no longer be determined by fate, by decree, or by any other agency. They will be decided by this station!" [page 46]
- Meaning: The sphere of influence of the Death Star is limited to only a region of the galaxy.
The tridimensional solid screen filled one wall of the vast chamber from floor to ceiling. It showed a million star systems. A tiny portion of the galaxy, but an impressive display nonetheless when exhibited in such a fashion. [page 109]
- Meaning: Whatever a tiny portion of the galaxy is, it consist of only a million star systems.
Interestingly, the first use of the most powerful destructive machine ever constructed had seemingly had no influence at all on that map, which in itself represented only a tiny fraction of this section of one modest-sized galaxy.[page 161]
- Meaning: The Star Wars galaxy is only a modest-sized galaxy.