Relation between Industrial Capacity and Volume

[l33telboi]

Don't play games. You stated clearly that we cannot compare construction of Death Star with "ships" obviously implying Death Star is not in fact a ship.

What i quite obviously mean was that we can't compare the Death Star to ordinary ships.

Canon does not in fact back you up since you haven't provided a shred of evidence as to what was the number of ships at Endor and you ignored the fact that Mon Mothma EXPLICITLY states that Imperial fleet is spread throughout the galaxy in a vain effort to engage them.

Why would i need to adress these two things? The number of ships at Endor was pathetically low compared to the supposed 25000 Stardestroyers and the fleet being spread out could mean anything. Meanwhile, the EU gives us solid numbers. Solid numbers that prove you wrong.

Ah yes it's the "physics escape clause" as Mr. Wong so eloquently put it.

You'll never know how funny i find it when i hear people like you refer to Wong with the title 'Mr' and Saxton with the title 'Dr'.

How exactly do you expect their engineering to "work" so as to allow them to construct a 160km starship at any arbitrary place in space and keeping it a secret yet be unable to construct a similar volume of much smaller and mundane ships the likes of which were constructed for decades and likely thousands of years before.

I don't know how or why and i don't need to. All i know is that it's true. The EU proves this. Therefore there must be something fundamentally harder when it comes to producing larger numbers of smaller ships when compared to something like a Death Star.

You can make up silly excuses and pretend canon "backs you up" without providing a shred of evidence or reasoning all you like.

I've provided evidence for this. The 25000 figure for Stardestroyers and the fact that they seem to be a significant portion of the fleet. The fact that NR were supposed to be able to create a Death Star within years, yet barely managed to maintain a fleet in the tens of thousands and only manage to double output when they devised mass-conscription programs and the like.

You can pretend as if these things aren't valid all you like. And you can pretend like you've already adressed them. But you haven't. There have never been any numbers that back up your assertions and this is why your theory fails.

[Jedi Master Spock]

A few things.

First, on the 25,000 ISDs figure from Zahn. I've reviewed the quote, and I see nothing about Imperial star destroyers in it. It actually just says "star destroyers."

Frankly, given the frequencies seen in the OT and contemporary/later era novels, it's not worth paying too much attention to other classes. I agree with what's been said before - most of the other classes of ships are both small and rarely seen, or supposed to be extraordinarily rare.

Second, there's a very interesting point worth making about the Republic Attack Cruiser. After twenty years, it is perfectly reasonable for a formerly common class to be nearly completely retired or scrapped for parts, especially if the mission of the navy has changed. Even the Russian navy tends to scrap old classes after ~30 years, and many WWII-era ships across the globe were retired quite swiftly afterwards in light of the changes in warfare (aircraft and later cruise missiles).

Speaking of which, the Imperial Remnant is quite a bit less of the old Empire than Russia is of the old Soviet Union. Zahn tells us the Remnant held eight sectors at the time of the 200/25,000 comparison; if the Empire holds a million systems (as noted in the OT) divided into sectors of ~50 systems (as suggested by other sources) then the Remnant had 0.8% of the fleet and 0.04% of the territory of the old Empire. Even the New Republic didn't field anywhere near the fleet strength of the old Empire - even just ballparking it on the slim numbers available in the EU novels puts it at 2-4% of the military strength, with around 1-2% of the territory.

Russia, meanwhile, is roughly half what the Soviet Union was, and has somewhere around a quarter the navy overall from the pre-collapse stage. I think it's very significant to note that Russia has demilitarized while the New Republic and Imperial Remnant represent a tighter concentration of military force than the original Empire.

[CrippledVulture]

Canon does not in fact back you up since you haven't provided a shred of evidence as to what was the number of ships at Endor and you ignored the fact that Mon Mothma EXPLICITLY states that Imperial fleet is spread throughout the galaxy in a vain effort to engage them.

And then later the Emperor EXPLICITLY states that he pretty much knows everything about the Rebel attack, and has in fact brought the fleet to Endor to trap them.

Did you even watch the movie? The Endor fleet was supposed to be a large fleet by Star Wars standards. The DS2's destruction and the fleet's defeat was the effective end of the Empire.

[Mr. Oragahn]

A few things.

First, on the 25,000 ISDs figure from Zahn. I've reviewed the quote, and I see nothing about Imperial star destroyers in it. It actually just says "star destroyers."

But there was an issue with the way he called imperial ships. I don't remember what it was, exactly, I think he considered all ships to be super star destroyers or something...

It's been a while, but I know there was something fishy.

Frankly, given the frequencies seen in the OT and contemporary/later era novels, it's not worth paying too much attention to other classes.

That is probably the best thing EU followers have to do, besides retconning.
The simple idea that the major warships of the clone wars, the Victory class, were utterly absent from the films, should be enough for people to notice how thing should be taken with a pinch of salt.

[Kane Starkiller]

What i quite obviously mean was that we can't compare the Death Star to ordinary ships.

"Ordinary" ships? So if they are ordinary what makes you think they'll be more difficult to construct than obviously extraordinary Death Star?

Why would i need to adress these two things? The number of ships at Endor was pathetically low compared to the supposed 25000 Stardestroyers and the fleet being spread out could mean anything. Meanwhile, the EU gives us solid numbers. Solid numbers that prove you wrong.

Hmmm let's see. I provide a quote from ROTJ stating quite clearly the fleet extends BEYOND HUMAN VISION and ask you to provide evidence of the number of ships present at Endor. And what do you come up with? NOTHING except to say you don't need to address my point. Honestly.

You'll never know how funny i find it when i hear people like you refer to Wong with the title 'Mr' and Saxton with the title 'Dr'.

It is only a polite thing to do and I always do it when mentioning someone by their real name. Mr. l33telboi would sound a little silly don't you think?
But of course you just can't help but to derail the topic into irrelevant tangents just to make a jab at Dr. Saxton and Mr. Wong. (Whoops I did it again.)

I don't know how or why and i don't need to. All i know is that it's true. The EU proves this. Therefore there must be something fundamentally harder when it comes to producing larger numbers of smaller ships when compared to something like a Death Star.

Where does EU prove this? Didn't I already handle the fallacy of comparing numbers of ships before and after the collapse of a state?

I've provided evidence for this. The 25000 figure for Stardestroyers and the fact that they seem to be a significant portion of the fleet. The fact that NR were supposed to be able to create a Death Star within years, yet barely managed to maintain a fleet in the tens of thousands and only manage to double output when they devised mass-conscription programs and the like.

By all means provide evidence that New Republic only maintained fleet of tens of thousands at that point in time. The only thing your quote mentions is the number of Vong ships and they already thought that's enough. And as for "only" doubling the production, doubling from what?

You can pretend as if these things aren't valid all you like. And you can pretend like you've already adressed them. But you haven't. There have never been any numbers that back up your assertions and this is why your theory fails.

What evidence have you provided? NONE. No numbers for Endor fleet, no numbers for New Republic no NOTHING. So excuse me while I take the actual visual evidence from the films and ignore your vague claims of contradictions. As if EU could override the films in the first place.

A few things.

First, on the 25,000 ISDs figure from Zahn. I've reviewed the quote, and I see nothing about Imperial star destroyers in it. It actually just says "star destroyers."

Frankly, given the frequencies seen in the OT and contemporary/later era novels, it's not worth paying too much attention to other classes. I agree with what's been said before - most of the other classes of ships are both small and rarely seen, or supposed to be extraordinarily rare.

They are not seen in the three films of the old trilogy. So what? And those ships seen in the films are star destroyers as opposed to Venators or "Republic attack ships". How do you know that most of those classes are small? Honestly you make statements without a shred of evidence.

Second, there's a very interesting point worth making about the Republic Attack Cruiser. After twenty years, it is perfectly reasonable for a formerly common class to be nearly completely retired or scrapped for parts, especially if the mission of the navy has changed. Even the Russian navy tends to scrap old classes after ~30 years, and many WWII-era ships across the globe were retired quite swiftly afterwards in light of the changes in warfare (aircraft and later cruise missiles).

Ans what changes in warfare were there in the technologically static Empire? Wasn't Death Star already in the midst of construction? Isn't Venator extremely similar to ISD with nearly identical bridge? There is absolutely no reason to assume that the ships will be replaced in 20 years.

And then later the Emperor EXPLICITLY states that he pretty much knows everything about the Rebel attack, and has in fact brought the fleet to Endor to trap them.

No, Vader asked Emperor "what of the reports of Rebel fleet massing near Sullust" and Emperor stated that they are of no concern. So no he doesn't explicitly state anything about recalling a large portion of the fleet.
Secondly Rebels were obviously tracking the movements of the fleet so they would know if they suddenly started converging towards Endor.

Did you even watch the movie? The Endor fleet was supposed to be a large fleet by Star Wars standards. The DS2's destruction and the fleet's defeat was the effective end of the Empire.

No the death of Emperor was the effective end of the Empire. The Empire already lost a Death Star and didn't feel a thing, starting instead to construct ANOTHER Death Star as if nothing happened.
Secondly, and I don't know how many times I asked this, PROVIDE EVIDENCE for the number of ships on Endor. It extends BEYOND human vision remember?

That is probably the best thing EU followers have to do, besides retconning.
The simple idea that the major warships of the clone wars, the Victory class, were utterly absent from the films, should be enough for people to notice how thing should be taken with a pinch of salt.

Some of the ship classes of a navy spread through entire galaxy were absent from GRAND TOTAL of three films and this is sufficient cause to declare them retired?

[CrippledVulture]

No, Vader asked Emperor "what of the reports of Rebel fleet massing near Sullust" and Emperor stated that they are of no concern. So no he doesn't explicitly state anything about recalling a large portion of the fleet.
Secondly Rebels were obviously tracking the movements of the fleet so they would know if they suddenly started converging towards Endor.

Well, they obviously failed. The plan was not "sneak in and take out the shield generator, hyperspace in and then get our asses kicked by the giant fleet that we know is there."

But don't take my word for it.

From the RoTJ script:

CONTROLLER
Admiral, we have enemy ships in sector 47.

On the screen can be seen the moon, Death Star, and the massive
Imperial fleet. Ackbar moves to the comlink.

ACKBAR
It's a trap!

Are we really expected to believe that the Emperor would orchestrate the entire engagement and not commit a large portion of his forces to the battle? This is utter garbage considering he knew about the fleet. He knew everything (except that Vader would turn on him, and that teddy bears would defeat "an entire legion of my best troops).

The USSR has been used as an analogy in this discussion, but allow me to present an alternative. Let's take a look at the Roman Empire.

Certainly, if they had wanted, the Romans could have decked out and trained a huge standing army to keep active at all times. They had the cash, the resources, and the manpower to do so. Metal helmets with crests clanking into each other wherever you looked.

They did not do this. Why? Because it makes no sense. Even in times of war, the Roman Empire would typically have only have two armies ("The Starfleet" as Dodonna refers to it). They were used for major engagements and conquests. Day-to-day defense and enforcement was conducted by the lictors (basically police), and wealthy families' personal guards and mercenaries ("Local bulk cruisers" and the like).

At the beginning of the original trilogy, there is at least one of these fleets active, because the Emperor is aware that there is an active rebellion.

For an Empire with little to fear (and the Star Wars Empire had considerably less to fear than the Romans), military power is the means to an end, namely political and economic control. Military power is expensive, it was expensive for the Romans, it is expensive now, and we can only assume that it will be expensive when and if we ever fight wars in space. An empire does not accumulate it just for its own sake.

None of these real world analogies stack up, however. The Galactic Empire has no external threats, nothing to conquer, just a rebellion. Remember "Spartacus"? You know how many big armies the Roman Empire had active when that was going on?

One.

Since we don't see or hear any evidence of millions of Star Destroyers cruising around the galaxy, and it is in fact rather un-imperial to do so, it seems clear to me that it is not the case.

But I suppose that if you want to imagine that every piece of space just off-camera is filled with Star Destroyers, that's your prerogative.

[l33telboi]

"Ordinary" ships? So if they are ordinary what makes you think they'll be more difficult to construct than obviously extraordinary Death Star?

Canon. I've already given you the specifics, you can reply coherently and stop repeating your own position whenever you choose to.

Hmmm let's see. I provide a quote from ROTJ stating quite clearly the fleet extends BEYOND HUMAN VISION and ask you to provide evidence of the number of ships present at Endor.

Even a single ship can extend beyond human vision. But as it was, we saw the fleet at Endor. Call me unimpressed.

It is only a polite thing to do and I always do it when mentioning someone by their real name. Mr. l33telboi would sound a little silly don't you think?

Comes off quite differently i'm afraid.

But of course you just can't help but to derail the topic into irrelevant tangents just to make a jab at Dr. Saxton and Mr. Wong. (Whoops I did it again.)

A minor observation that gives some insight into how you work. Thought it might be funny to see if you can figure out why i think this is worth mentioning.

Where does EU prove this?

Whenever they mention numbers or production capabilities.

Didn't I already handle the fallacy of comparing numbers of ships before and after the collapse of a state?

If by 'handling' you mean 'ignoring'. Sure.

By all means provide evidence that New Republic only maintained fleet of tens of thousands at that point in time. The only thing your quote mentions is the number of Vong ships and they already thought that's enough. And as for "only" doubling the production, doubling from what?

The mere fact that cap ships went to toe and that they still needed more ships should be proof enough. When it comes to actual numbers, we get stuff like dozens. The only battle where any real significant numbers were mentioned was at Coruscant. And it still fell far far short of even the 25000 ships mark.

What evidence have you provided? NONE. No numbers for Endor fleet, no numbers for New Republic no NOTHING.

If you're going to put your fingers in your ears and pretend that the argument goes away if you ignore it, then you're clearly wasting both our time.

And we've all seen the visual evidence when it comes to the Endor fleet i'm afraid. Not all that impressive. Besides, if you're caliming large numbers for Endor, the burden of proof is on you. Not me.

So excuse me while I take the actual visual evidence from the films and ignore your vague claims of contradictions. As if EU could override the films in the first place.

Visual evidence? You have a single theory based on the Deathstar. A theory that doesn't hold up to scrutiny. I'm afraid that isn't 'visual evidence'.

They are not seen in the three films of the old trilogy.

Or any of the novels, games, rpg books etc etc etc...

How do you know that most of those classes are small? Honestly you make statements without a shred of evidence.

If you're saying there's an ubdundancy in other, larger, ship classes, go ahead and provide the evidence.

Ans what changes in warfare were there in the technologically static Empire? Wasn't Death Star already in the midst of construction? Isn't Venator extremely similar to ISD with nearly identical bridge? There is absolutely no reason to assume that the ships will be replaced in 20 years.

They're pretty much replaced yet again between the OT era and the NJO era.

[Kane Starkiller]

So I'm guessing you won't be producing any evidence as to what was the number of ships at Endor will you?
I don't see much point in continuing this discussion if you don't even bother to meet at least the very lowest burden of proof standards.

[Who is like God arbour]

Now as for "Who is like God arbour " and his points:
1. ISDs are built in shipyards
How does this help your argument? Empire managed to build a Death Star WITHOUT any supporting shipyard on an arbitrary position. Already preexisitng shipyards will only make ISDs even easier to construct.

As I have tried to point out several times, there is a difference between the Death Star and a Star Destroyer.

Maybe they don't need yards for the Death Star, because it is so big, that it can support itself, so big, that all industrial and other support facilities (factories, habitations for the building crew etc.), that are necessary on location, could be placed inside it.

That wouldn't be possible for a substantially smaller ship. These facilities would be placed around the ship (or on other bases or on planets) and compose at large that, what we would call a yard, respectively a yard complex.

Of course, that doesn't mean, that the building of the Death Star wouldn't need these facilities - or that it would need comparatively fewer facilities. That's not what I have tried to argue.

What I have tried to argue is, that that is the reason, why the Death Star, as from a certain progress, wouldn't need an yard anymore and could be finished with facilities, which are placed in the already finished parts of it.

With a Star Destroyer, which doesn't have the place for these facilities, that is not possible. Such a ship can leave the yard not before it is almost finished because till then, it depends on the support of the yard.

Why is that important, if the facilities are needed regardless?

Because, if the facilities are in immediate vicinity of the ship, which is build, the haulage distance for bulky workpieces are shortened.

Imagine for example, that a factory on the surface of a planet manufacture a bulky workpiece out of its raw materials. Then, this bulky workpiece has to be transported to the ship, which is build far away from the planet.

By contrast, if only the raw materials, which are far easier to transport, because they aren't bulky, are transported to the ship and further processed there, the bulky workpieces don't have to be transported that far. Maximal from one end of the ship to the other end.

That's why it is more effectiv to have the manufacturing factories as near as possible to the ship, which is build. That is substantially cheaper.

The same applies for the building crew. It is cheaper, if they can live in immediate vicinity of the ship, which is build - or even in it, as soon as it is able to support habitations, than to transport them several times every day to and fro to their habitations on a planet far away from the ship to build.

That's why it would be inefficient to build smaller ships out of an yard.

But on the other side, if smaller ships are only build in yards, the number of ships, which are build parallel, are limited to the number of yards.

If they are build out of the yard, the transportation costs are raising extremly.

2. Not enough manpower
Those crewmember estimate is completely inadequate since at those numbers Death Star's would be completely vacant.
Assuming one deck is 5m tall Death Star has 32,000 decks with and average surface of about 10^10m2. Assuming there is one crewmember every 100 meters that translates into 1/31415m-2 density. For the Death Star that is 10 billion crewmembers. Looking at the films Death Stars are far more crowded than that with crew filling the corridors wherever our heroes go.

I haven't estimate the crew of the Death Star. I have the numbers from Wookieepedia, which says, that they are from Star Wars: Behind the Magic. As far as I know, that is canon too.
But I understand your concerns.
The question would be, if your objection is correct. Does the Death Star really have 32'000 decks? And the decks, it has, are they realy only five meter tall?
We have seen in Return of the Jedi, that the Death Star has a really low density. Fighters were able to fly through the bowels of it to its reactor core, which was in a huge bulb. That could mean, that the crew is mainly distributed in the higher decks and that there is almost no crew at the core.

Our heroes weren't even approximately in the near of the core.

Unless you think, that the compactor is placed in the near of the core, so that the trash can be conducted through half of the Death Star every time, it makes a jump to hyperspeed and, following the standard procedure, jettison it before.

Not to mention that an Empire of quadrillions will not have a problem of crewing it's ships.

From Star Wars 6 - Return of the Jedi:

• • • JERJERROD: Lord Vader, this is an unexpected pleasure. We're honored by your presence.
      
      VADER: You may dispense with the pleasantries, Commander. I'm here to put you back on schedule.
      
      The commander turns ashen and begins to shake.
      
      JERJERROD: I assure you, Lord Vader, my men are working as fast as they can.
      
      VADER: Perhaps I can find new ways to motivate them.
      
      JERJERROD: I tell you, this station will be operational as planned.
      
      VADER: The Emperor does not share your optimistic appraisal of the situation.
      
      JERJERROD: But he asks the impossible. I need more men.
      
      VADER: Then perhaps you can tell him when he arrives.

I don't know, what you think, what this quote implies, but I have thought, that this implies a labour shortage. It seems, JERJERROD can't simply ask at the next employment center (or the responsible Staff-Officer) for more men. I think, he would have done it, if it were possible, before he would have left the given shedule. No, he has to ask the Emperor, what - in my opinion - heavily implies, that manpower is in short supply.

3. Number of imperial worlds
Number of million Imperial worlds being million is given in ANH novels so that is a FACT my friend.

Maybe you can be a little bit more exact. Where exactly is it given. Please give a quote.

4. Empire "wasted" their time on building Death Stars
You provided zero evidence that this is the case.

I have written:

The Empire probably has 100,000 major worlds, compared to 100-150 for the Federation. Even if Federation technology allows an output ten times greater than that for Imperial worlds, it's still a 100-to-1 in favor of the Empire. The fact that they wasted their time building Death Stars instead of making uberfleets is not the Federation's problem by any means.

How can you declare something for which you provided not a shred of evidence a "fact"? Do you forget that DS1 was built secretly as was DS2? That certainly doesn't imply that entire Imperial military industrial capacity was "wasted" on Death Stars. The Empire has million worlds and who knows how many "uncharted settlements" so the fact that we don't see millions of ships lumped in one place is hardly a surprise.

How can you declare something for which you provided not a shred of evidence a "fact"?
And 2046 hasn't implied, that the entire Imperial military industrial capacity was "wasted" on Death Stars. He has only said, that "they wasted their time building Death Stars instead of making uberfleets." And that is correct.
How many Star Destroyers could they have build instead of the Death Star?
And, if the Empire would have, as you say, million worlds and who knows how many "uncharted settlements", what use would have one or two Death Stars?

I know, my English isn't the best, but I have tried to say, that 2046 has not said, that the entire Imperial military industrial capacity was "wasted" on Death Stars.
Please for what exactly shall I provide evidence?

But, as I have said already too, the Emperial task force at Endor, as well as the Emperial task force at Hoth, was to small to prevent, that the rebels could have escaped. What is this for a trap, in which one let its prey escape? Please adress this objection!!!

This is no objection. If a criminal escapes a group of 5 squad cars does that mean the police doesn't have any more? What planet do you live on. Have you provided any evidence as to how many ships there were on Endor? Of course not.

I would like to give the question back. What planet do you live on?

There is a difference between cops who have met accidentally a criminal, who is able to escape their ad hoc car chase and a situation, in which cops have exactly knowledge, when the criminal is at a certain place and are able to arrange a trap. There would be enough cops to prevent, that the criminal could easily escape.

OK, that doesn't have to mean, that they can actual prevent, that the criminal escapes, but that wouldn't be because a lack of manpower but a lack of competence.

Both, at Hoth, as well as Endor, there were never enough ships, to prevent that the rebels could have escaped. Right from the start, the Emperial task forces were to weak. To blockade a planet, like Hoth, or even a whole system, like Endor. There would be by far more ships necessary.

The fact stays, that, if the Empire would have wanted to trap the Alliance effectively, they would have needed more ships. And if they would have the ships, they would have send them to Hoth or Endor. Conclusion: they don't have substantial more ships.

In addition to argumentation of CrippledVulture, I'd like to present the following quote from Star Wars 6 - Return of the Jedi:

• • The Emperor turns to face Luke.
    
    EMPEROR (angry): Everything that has transpired has done so according to my design. (indicates Endor) Your friends up there on the Sanctuary Moon...
    
    Luke reacts. The Emperor notes it.
    
    EMPEROR (cont): ...are walking into a trap. As is your Rebel fleet! It was I who allowed the Alliance to know the location of the shield generator. It is quite safe from your pitiful little band. An entire legion of my best troops awaits them.
    
    Luke's look darts from the Emperor to Vader and, finally, to the sword in the Emperor's hand.
    
    EMPEROR: Oh...I'm afraid the deflector shield will be quite operational when your friends arrive.

Please don't pretend, that the Emperor has not known, that the Alliance is about to attack the Death Star. He has not only known it, he has even designed it.

Secondly Rebels were obviously tracking the movements of the fleet so they would know if they suddenly started converging towards Endor.

Do you really think, that they would be able to notice it, if from a fleet, that is supposed to consist of several million ships, some thousand ships would converging towards Endor.

As I have said already, even thousand ships and more would be only an infinitesimal part of the Emperial Fleet.

The Alliance could notice this only, if they would have spies at key positions. But if they would have such spies, they would have known about the ships, which were actual at Endor, too. Unless the Empire has eliminated these spies. But then, the Empire could have send as many ships as it would have wanted.

The only logical conlusion, I see, is, that the Emperial Fleet doesn't consist of million of ships and that the task force at Hoth and Endor was all, it could have afforded to send.

We could see in chapter 30 of the movie the whole fleet of the Alliance, as they have jumped to hyperspeed. That allone would be enough to contradict your quote from the ROTJ novel. And we could see the battle at Endor out of the windows from the chamber of the Emperor.
Maybe you want to bother to provide evidence, that there were more ships, than commonly assumed?

How can it contradict the novel which says that more ships extend BEYOND HUMAN VISION? Therefore we COULDN'T see it all in the films.

Because, at this time, the fleet was in movement. You know, that if I stand at the locomotive of a train and can't see at the same moment the end of the train, I can regardless count the wagons, when the train is driving past me.
And, as we could see the fleet out of the window of the chamber of the Emperor, we could see, that the fleet hasn't extended beyound human vision, because we could see, that still in human vision, there were no further ships but the ships at the battle in the centre of the field of vision.

If the fleet would have extended beyound human vision, we would have seen ships all over the field of vision till they wouldn't be recognizable anymore.

Correct, we - or at least I - have no idea.
But we know, that the Emperial Navy had have a strict order and command chain. Even if the Emperor, the head of this order and command chain, has died, it would persist.

* For example, the forces of the USA wouldn't come apart, only because the president, the Supreme Commander of the Armed Forces, would die.
* Another example, when Stalin has died, the Red Army has not come appart, although Stalin was power-addicted and has created a cult of personality, not unlike the Emporer in Star Wars.

A strict chain of command? How come that Vader was subservient to Grand Moff Tarkin and yet clearly above Grand Moff Jerjerrod? We are clearly talking about Emperor positioning his trusted men in positions of power and all that could easily crumble once he is dead.
As you sid: You have no idea. So how can you claim any kind of contradictions with former fleet numbers if you don't know what happened?

As I have already asked: Where are all the other ships of the Emperial Fleet? Such an Imperial StarDestroyer don't get lost in nirvana - and a fortiori not thousands or even millions of them.
I know only, what I have seen in the movies. If you know, why all the ships, we have never seen, but you claim to be there nevertheless, get lost, please enlighten me.

If there is no noteworthy difference between the industrial capacity before an event and after the event, I can very well compare both conditions. And the death of an Emperor is not the collapse of the Empire. As I have said already, only an infinitesimal part of the Emperial Fleet would have been destroyed at Endor, if it would really consist of thousands or even millions of ships. Where are the rest of the remainder of the Emperial Navy and why would the death of the Emperor affect the industrial capacity in a noteworthy extent?

The Empire DID collapse whether you want to admit it or not.

OK, but even if the Empire as a political body did collapse, why would that influense noteworthy the economy? The infrastructure, all the mines, factories, yards, manpower etc. would still be there, nevertheless, and only waiting for the next customer - the New Republic or Remnants of the Empire.

Please don't only repeat an already adressed argument of yours, if you don't address the raised objections. The question is, how far the Thrawn trilogy is superseded by higher or equal canon, which imply other Fleet strengths?

• For example, why would the Emperial task force at Endor consist of so few ships, if the Emperial Fleet could have assigned thousands of ships without problems, if there would really be so many of them? That wasn't even enough ships, to prevent the fleet of the rebellion to escape. Admiral Ackbar has already started to order the withdrawal. He has seen the Emperial task force but, as it seems, has thought, that a withdrawal was possible nevertheless.
• Another example: why would the Emperial task force at Hoth consist of so few ships, if the Emperial Fleet could have assigned thousands of ships without problems, if there would really be so many of them? That wasn't even enough ships, to prevent the rebels to escape from Hoth.

The movies haven't left the impression of huge fleets, consisting of millions of ships. Only some exaggeratory EU novels have created such impression. But someone, who hasn't read any EU novels - like me - can't recognize the Star Wars Universe from the movies in the tales, which are told about some of these EU novels. They describe in my opinion another universe, which have only superficial relations to the universe, decribed by the movies. In my understanding of canon, that disqualified such EU novels as part of the original universe.
Please don't misapprehend me. I have nothing against continuative novels as long as they respect the spirit of the original. It's possible to explain every bollocks and every change. But that's not, what a continuative novel is supposed to do. If I want to read about Star Wars, I expect a story, in which I can recognize the Star Wars, I know.

How many ships were there on Endor? It streched beyond human vision remember? Mon Mothma reports that Imperial fleet is scattered across the galaxy in a vain effort to engage the Rebels. Did that escape your attention?
Imperial fleet at Hoth had the task of capturing a group of Rebels and they brought ships they could spare and thought neccesary. You don't send ALL your police cars for any group of criminals do you?
Secondly your opinion that EU doesn't represent the movie is just that: your opinion.
The movie, even the first one, introduced us to a galaxy spanning civilization that is 25,000 years old can build 160km long ships that can blow up planets. Nothing about million ships contradicts that.

Your first point is already adressed [see above].

No, I don't send ALL my police cars for any group of criminals. But if the group is considered as really dangerous, I would send as many cars, I think necessary to be sure, that I can catch them.
You know, that the rebels weren't only shoplifters, do you?
There was a real desideratum to extinguish them.

And as I have already asked too, maybe you can provide me with quotes, which prove, that the movie, even the first one, introduced us to a galaxy spanning civilization that is 25,000 years old.

I can only remember a few quotes in the first novel:

• Tarkin: "Events in this region of the galaxy will no longer be determined by fate, by decree, or by any other agency. They will be decided by this station!" [page 46]
  • Meaning: The sphere of influence of the Death Star is limited to only a region of the galaxy.
  The tridimensional solid screen filled one wall of the vast chamber from floor to ceiling. It showed a million star systems. A tiny portion of the galaxy, but an impressive display nonetheless when exhibited in such a fashion. [page 109]
  • Meaning: Whatever a tiny portion of the galaxy is, it consist of only a million star systems.
  Interestingly, the first use of the most powerful destructive machine ever constructed had seemingly had no influence at all on that map, which in itself represented only a tiny fraction of this section of one modest-sized galaxy.[page 161]
  • Meaning: The Star Wars galaxy is only a modest-sized galaxy.

[l33telboi]

So I'm guessing you won't be producing any evidence as to what was the number of ships at Endor will you?

If you want to claim there were numbers to support your theory in the battle, then it falls on you to prove it. Having someone say there are ships beyond visual range is pretty weak as any indicator of numbers. It's actually just an indicator that the ships were far away.

I don't see much point in continuing this discussion if you don't even bother to meet at least the very lowest burden of proof standards.

Consession accepted.

[Who is like God arbour]

So? ISDs will have millions of reactors and Death Star will have one huge 10km reactor. I don't see how this makes things any easier for the Death Star. ISD reactors will become much cheaper as the production drags along while there is only one Death Star type reactor and it's huge and it has capabilities no ISD reactor or a group of reactor is close to replicating. So really how can this possibly go in Death Star's favor?

So? ISDs will have millions of reactors and Death Star will have one huge 10km reactor. I don't see how this makes things any easier for the Death Star. ISD reactors will become much cheaper as the production drags along while there is only one Death Star type reactor and it's huge and it has capabilities no ISD reactor or a group of reactor is close to replicating. So really how can this possibly go in Death Star's favor?

Ever heard of the volume-surface-ratio?

The surface is raising square, while the volume is raising cubed.

That's why, if you would build a huge hollowware, you would need comparatively fewer material for the wall as if you would build a small hollowware.

That apllies to the reactor too.

The reactor of the Death Star has a huge reaction chamber. To build it, you would need far fewer material as you would comparatively need for the small reaction chambers of the reactor of a Star Destroyer.





And that would be the argument, I have waited for.

The 160 km big Death Star II has a surface area of circa 80'400'000'000 m² and a volume of circa 21'440'000'000'000'000 m³.

A 1609 m long Star Destroyer has a surface area of circa 4'267'350 m² and a volume of circa 53'942'400 m³.

• [I have taken these number from Starship Volumetrics. You can object the exactness of these numbers - but it should be clear, that the round magnitude is correct.]

And now to the math (I hate it and have hoped, that some other would bring this argument and would therewith spare me this challenge):

The volume of the Death Star equals the volume of 16'771'594 Star Destroyers.

But the surface area of the Death Star equals only 10'593 Star Destroyers.

You notice the difference.

If one assumes, that the surface of both, the Death Star as well as a Star Destroyer is made of an armor, then you should be able to see the problem.

The armor of a warship is notoriously very difficult to handle. It is very heavy and concist of very expensive materials. Allone the armor of a warship account for a relatively huge part of the cost of a warship. But for the Death Star, because its bigness, this part would be relativly small.

The corridors, bulkheads and butt plates aren't really such a big problem. That are standard items, which can be produced without any problems, a fortiori if the Empire would use modern CAD-CAM robots.





And again, the same aplies to a reactor core, from which I woud suspect, that it is made of high-value materials.

The bigger, the cheaper.

And that's why - spoken abstract - it is cheaper to construct a big structure than to construct many small structure, which together have the same volume as the one big structure.

[Jedi Master Spock]

They are not seen in the three films of the old trilogy. So what?

Or the literature of the Expanded Universe, which gives us a collective sample size on the order of thousands of ships.

And those ships seen in the films are star destroyers as opposed to Venators or "Republic attack ships". How do you know that most of those classes are small? Honestly you make statements without a shred of evidence.

I am again referencing the EU here when I speak of our other ship classes, which would be solely hypothetical elsewhere. Republic assault ships are substantially smaller, of course, although the attack cruisers (aka Venators) are a substantial fraction of the size of an ISD.

Ans what changes in warfare were there in the technologically static Empire? Wasn't Death Star already in the midst of construction? Isn't Venator extremely similar to ISD with nearly identical bridge? There is absolutely no reason to assume that the ships will be replaced in 20 years.

The RAC (Venator) is somewhat similar, but acts very differently.

I don't believe in technological stasis, although it is an attractive notion in Star Wars. What's most important is the mission shift. The strategic demands of fighting the Rebellion are completely different than fighting the Clone Wars.

Frankly, scrapping Venators would let them build Imperators much faster, especially if they can reuse large structural parts - meaning that would be the smartest thing for them to do.

It's been a while, but I know there was something fishy.

Well, when you remember what was fishy about it specifically, please do bring it to my attention. I can't seem to notice anything fishy about it.

[l33telboi]

If you give me the name of the novel and rough indication of where there to find it, i can probably find and post a quote from it. But it'll have to be tomorrow since it's sleep time right now.

[Mr. Oragahn]

So I'm guessing you won't be producing any evidence as to what was the number of ships at Endor will you?
I don't see much point in continuing this discussion if you don't even bother to meet at least the very lowest burden of proof standards.

I wonder what kind of evidence would need to be produced. We saw how far the fleet extended on screen.

The more distant were like several pixels wide, but still noticeable.

Of course, you may pretend that some of the white dots supposedly being part of the star background were in fact even more distant ships.

HD screencaps could likely put an end to this arguing.

[Kane Starkiller]

I wonder what kind of evidence would need to be produced. We saw how far the fleet extended on screen.

Does anyone read my posts? I already pointed out several times that ROTJ novel states that rebel fleet extends beyond human vision.