Falcon Scaling

[l33telboi]

The pic of the Falcon:



Another pic of the Falcon inside the hangar:



The exit from the Death Star, given how close to the edge the ship was parked, it wouldn't have to back out much for the rear to partially stick out.

This is an image where we clearly see the front end is still inside the hangar, yet Han has already started backing up:



And this is the very next frame:

[Praeothmin]

Leetboi wrote:

I'd rather peg you and the things you say as rabid fanboy wank that seems to compensate a lacking penis size with 200GT turbolasers.

I really don't see how being insulting to him has any bearing on the disagreement.
He has the right to disagree, and as far as I could see, he wasn't insulting to anyone.

Now, on the subject of scaling, the pictures you posted Leetboi seem to favor a 20m wide falcon, for a length of 26-30 meters.
As far as the cockpit looks, seeing as Han and chewie seem to be sitting very near to the first row of windows, when we look at the Stormtroopers standing next to it, they could very well fit in the cockpit.

I'm sorry Kane, I don't see the scaling problem with this image either.
I have to agree with Leetboi and Mr. Oraghan.

[l33telboi]

I really don't see how being insulting to him has any bearing on the disagreement.

Oh it hasn't. Let's just say we've got history, and i know Kane prefers it this way. Having said that, i probably should stop, in respect to the boards rules.

[Mike DiCenso]

I took a look at the images in Adobe. The second picture of the Falcon inside the hanger is very interesting in that it provides a good marker of the width of the Stormtroopers standing guard near it. Several of them are turned so that we see the full width of their shoulders. The average measurement I got was 18-19 pixels wide, while the Falcon cockpit is a good 59 pixels wide, or about some 3 times wider than the shoulder width of the STs. Now the cockpit is somewhat closer to the camera than the STs on account that is is elevated nearly 2 meters higher as well as laterally closer by about 3 meters. However, this can be accounted for, and I would expect an error in difference of not more than 15% over the original estimate. Let's say 2.5 times the ST's shoulder width for fairness' sake. So the cockpit still has enough room for the STs to actually sit down inside the Falcon, and with a bit of room to spare between them.
-Mike

[Kane Starkiller]

So the cockpit still has enough room for the STs to actually sit down inside the Falcon, and with a bit of room to spare between them.

That's not good enough:
Click to see frame-breakingly large image. -JMS

The pic of the Falcon:

Have you performed any measurements? If you have you'll undoubtedly notice that hangar is 83px in height near the left edge while it is 276px wide resulting in a width to heigth ratio of 3.32.

On the other hand Falcon entry screencap shows a width/height ratio of 2.28 measuring from the edges of light.
So does the hangar change shape? Or is, just like with oversized stormtroopers, the scaling of the scene incorrect?

And this is the very next frame:
http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r310 ... alcon4.jpg

And it appears that Falcon is still inside the hangar so it will appear bigger in relation to the hangar doors? How does this help your case?

[l33telboi]

That's not good enough:

And to think that just a second ago you were talking about we not being able to use the width of the falcon because the camera was closer to the falcon and perspective would de distorted.

And then you pull out an image with Han standing outside the cockpit and then assume he will be as small closer to the camera as out there.

Truly, i'm speechless.

Here's a random pic of the cockpit, notice how Han now occupies an area on the screen roughly twice as large as in the pic you posted.



As you can see, Obi-wan and Skywalker are significantly less wide then Chewie and Han, even though they are inside the cockpit, just a wee bit behind him. Now realize what this means when the pic you have has Han outside the cockpit.

Basically, you could squeeze maybe three people in a single line in there with a tight fit. In other words, the jumbo contradiction you are claiming is non-existant.

So does the hangar change shape?

You do realize that those figures are based on a perfect frontal view of the hangar opening (you even scaled the extreme left of the hangar, when a more appropriate figure would be derived from the middle). Yet the hangar opening is obviously smaller at the other end, indicating a not so perfect full frontal view.

Basically, you're nitpicking, and using faulty scalings to support that.

And it appears that Falcon is still inside the hangar so it will appear bigger in relation to the hangar doors? How does this help your case?

The Falcon is partially inside the hangar. The cockpit is quite at the front, remember? And the Falcon has already backed up quite a bit. So logically, part of it would be sticking out and part would be sticking in of the opening, given the close proximity to the edge it had before launch.

[Mike DiCenso]

There's also another important point here; the pic Kane posted also shows Han turned more edge on with respect to the full width of the aft cockpit bulkhead (the widest part of the cockpit, BTW) making him appear much smaller in aspect , whereas in I33telboi's pic has Han sitting up front and facing very nearly full-on with respect to the camera view, making him appear larger. So my point with regard to the STs still stands. Even in a smaller than 3.4 meter (12 foot) wide cockpit, there is still plenty of room for normal humans to sit in with some room to spare. In fact, the pilot and co-pilot seating positions are located in a part of the Falcon's cockpit that is where it begins to taper down to around 7-9 feet (2 to 2.79 meters).

Also notice how much wider Luke's and Ben's shoulders appear with regards to the aft cockpit bulkhead in I33telboi's screencap compared to Kane's pic of Han (who is indeed not quite yet inside the cockpit in addition to being turned mostly sideways).

So again, in I33telboi's pic of the Falcon in the hanger, the STs can stand shoulder-to-shoulder and still have at least half a person's width leftover. Plenty of room.
-Mike

[Kane Starkiller]

And to think that just a second ago you were talking about we not being able to use the width of the falcon because the camera was closer to the falcon and perspective would de distorted.

And then you pull out an image with Han standing outside the cockpit and then assume he will be as small closer to the camera as out there.

Truly, i'm speechless.

And your evidence Han is behind the cockpit is? Not to mention that this would not significantly alter the number unless that corridor is much longer than we think.

Here's a random pic of the cockpit.
http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r310 ... alcon5.jpg
As you can see, Obi-wan and Skywalker are significantly less wide then Chewie and Han, even though they are inside the cockpit, just a wee bit behind him. Now realize what this means when the pic you have has Han outside the cockpit.

Basically, you could squeeze maybe three people in a single line in there with a tight fit.

Nonsense. There is room for one between Han and Chewie and camera can't even get the space between them and the wall.

Here is another shot:
Click to see large image. -JMS
Look at the two crewmembers in the background and the camera still can't encompass the entire width of the cockpit. There'll be no squeezing there.
And we are not even talking about the floor padding and computers on the side of the cockpit.

You do realize that those figures are based on a perfect frontal view of the hangar opening (you even scaled the extreme left of the hangar, when a more appropriate figure would be derived from the middle). Yet the hangar opening is obviously smaller at the other end, indicating a not so perfect full frontal view.

Basically, you're nitpicking, and using faulty scalings to support that.

Yes I scaled the extreme left of both hangars. Precisely due to perspective the hangar in the trooper shot should appear less wide and since I scaled the closest part of the hangar for height the ratio of width to height should be the SMALLEST right? Even so it is still 145% greater than the other ratio.
How is this nitpicking?

The Falcon is partially inside the hangar. The cockpit is quite at the front, remember? And the Falcon has already backed up quite a bit. So logically, part of it would be sticking out and part would be sticking in of the opening, given the close proximity to the edge it had before launch.

How much is "quite a bit"? You have no idea have you? You don't know where the Falcon is in relation to the hangar and thus don't know if the figures are distorted.

[l33telboi]

And your evidence Han is behind the cockpit is? Not to mention that this would not significantly alter the number unless that corridor is much longer than we think.

He's standing in the damn corridor to the bridge!

And if that's not enough, the picture i provided is a frontal shot of him not being in the corridor, ending up with him occupying much larger area of the screen. And it would alter the figures by a factor of almost two.

Face it, if you want to do a valid scaling, then do it from a pic where Han is at the front of the cockpit, not standing in the corridor. It's as simple as that.

Nonsense. There is room for one between Han and Chewie and camera can't even get the space between them and the wall.

It's still roughtly the same amount of room as stormtroopers would fit inside the cockpit.

Look at the two crewmembers in the background and the camera still can't encompass the entire width of the cockpit. There'll be no squeezing there.

Obviously not, since that area is a lot less tight then the front of the ship. Just look at the pics i posted. The pilots sit roughly where the windows start, a little more forward. The area behind that is significantly wider. As both the model of the ship and Ben and Luke prove.

And we are not even talking about the floor padding and computers on the side of the cockpit.

Which seem to take up just about zero space. Most definetly so at the forward of the cockpit where there aren't computers on the walls, but rather windows.

Yes I scaled the extreme left of both hangars. Precisely due to perspective the hangar in the trooper shot should appear less wide and since I scaled the closest part of the hangar for height the ratio of width to height shoudl be the SMALLEST right? Even so it is still 145% lesser than the other ratio.

And you accounted for the fact that the camera was off to the left and showed a 'turned' view of the hangar? This affects width you know.

How much is "quite a bit"? You have no idea have you? You don't know where the Falcon is in relation to the hangar and thus don't know if the figures are distorted.

I don't know exactly, no. But logically it would be somewhere up to 50% of the length should be sticking out. I'm afraid that size agrees with Darkstars calcs, not the yours.

I mean come on, even taking the size it is in relation of the hangar after it's been backing up even more and is actually turning around to fly away would still have if far larger in realtion to the opening when compared to the previous post given. It's a direct contradiction, like it or not. And by then the perspective is really making the opening look bigger then the Falcon.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Click to see frame-breakingly large image. -JMS

He's still in the corridor at that point.
The cockpit's floor is one step above the tube's floor btw.


The trouble with the shots from inside of the MF make it appear like a ship where's there a lot of space. There's enough headroom even in the tubes, while looking at the ship from the outside, you just have to wonder how they could even make the living room fit in that ship.

I just don't see how there can be that main circling torus within the middle ot the ship, which is very big and very high, without meaning that there's an absurd amount of padding in the tube leading to the cockpit.

Might be a trick of the eye, and only a very meticulous work could really tell what's right or wrong, but I think the Hoth issue also apllies here.

A look at Bob Brown's MF page would also help.

[Kane Starkiller]

Here is another shot of Han:
Click here to see frame-breakingly large image. -JMS
As you can clearly see now he is most definitely inside the cockpit and it is still roughly 3 times as wide as Han's torso and head are tall. That is almost 3 meters right there. Adding up computers, wiring, isolation and outer hull it adds up to at least 3 meters.
L33telboi your point about front of cockpit being less wide is irrelevant. I was scaling the hangar bay from the widest part of the cockpit and THAT is the part I assumed is 3 meters wide/tall just as the picture above demonstrates.

And you accounted for the fact that the camera was off to the left and showed a 'turned' view of the hangar? This affects width you know.

Yes I already said that. Because the camera was to the left the hangar will appear less wide thus width/height ratio will be smaller. Yet the width/height ratio is still 145% bigger than that of the frontal view.
Therefore the other shot is contradictory. Add in the stormtroopers appearing to large when compared to internal shots and it is clear the scene is off in terms of scaling.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Maybe the threa should be renamed to take count of the MF related side discussion. It's getting bigger and bigger.

Or maybe we should have another thread only for the MF in fact.

[Kane Starkiller]

Maybe the threa should be renamed to take count of the MF related side discussion. It's getting bigger and bigger.

Or maybe we should have another thread only for the MF in fact.

Well actually Falcon's width doesn't seem to be in dispute since width of 22.5m which Darkstar lists in his article agrees perfectly width 3m cockpit.

The main point here is that hangar entry scene is unreliable since Falcon could be closer to the camera and thus it's size exaggerated. Comparing it with final approach scene we found that that is exactly the case.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Maybe the threa should be renamed to take count of the MF related side discussion. It's getting bigger and bigger.

Or maybe we should have another thread only for the MF in fact.

Well actually Falcon's width doesn't seem to be in dispute since width of 22.5m which Darkstar lists in his article agrees perfectly width 3m cockpit.

The main point here is that hangar entry scene is unreliable since Falcon could be closer to the camera and thus it's size exaggerated. Comparing it with final approach scene we found that that is exactly the case.

Ah, ok. Then there's no issue.

The very moment the screencap should be made is when we see the cockpit being lightened by the neon.
We know that for sheer LOS concerns, the neons strictly illuminate what's inside the hangar, not what's outside..

So a good moment to take the screencap would be when the light lits up the junction between the access tube and the cockpit.
At that point, perspective (because there is a significant amount of it) wouldn't influence the scaling, since we know that the cockpit would be within the neon threshold, and thus sufficiently accurate for a measure.

It is possible that the screenshot RSA uses has been taken too late, and due to perspective, the cockpit is already way inside the hangar, and thus appears wider than what it should if it had precisely been within the neon threshold, especially in comparison to the hangar size.

[Jedi Master Spock]

I really don't see how being insulting to him has any bearing on the disagreement.

Oh it hasn't. Let's just say we've got history, and i know Kane prefers it this way. Having said that, i probably should stop, in respect to the boards rules.

Yes, that would be a good idea.

Or maybe we should have another thread only for the MF in fact.

Done.