Starfleet Jedi

In Star Wars ROTS, R2D2 had splashed oil on the two "SUPER BATTLE DROIDS" and then ignites his booster rockets causing the oil to erupt into flames, which in turn caused small explosions an the toppled "SUPER BATTLE DROIDS".














What does this say about these "SUPER BATTLE DROIDS"? How tough can they really be, if such fire can destroy them?

This, despite being less than stellar, is not quite as bad as it would seem at first. It is painfully evident that there are some gaps, particularly near the arm joints, between the armor plating and the vulnerable internal machinery. The fuel seems to have filtrated through those gaps and ignited something inside (some kind of fuel cell, perhaps?).

Such gaps in the armour would be lethal for a human trooper against chemical or biological weapons, but even retarded robots have no need to breathe and trying to use R2's trick in an army-wide scale would be absurdly expensive (and damaging to the battlefield). As things stand, they probably have somewhat better protection against frontal shots than baseline battledroids and a bigger chest cavity that probably stores the larger power cell needed to fire the in-built blasters.

Superbattledroids are meant to be mass-produced and despite being a far cry from perfect soldiers are an improvement over TPM battledroids (particularly because they have inbuilt weapons). Killing one of them doesn't do much do if one of his trillion relatives kills you the next second.

Actually.... Napalm:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napalm


Most of the delivery methods seen in the article should be possible, especially for a relatively highly advanced society like the Galactic Republic.
-Mike

What I don't get is the design of the SBD's feet. They shouldn't easily slip. They should have already spikes on the bottoms of their feet for when they're moving across dirt, like the shoes of golfers. It could be retractable spikes for when you're on solid surfaces.

They seem to be made for the most common environments. Dry land, forest, snow, and walking across small rivers.

As for what's super, they have better motors, I suppose, a more agressive code, but their armour doesn't do a better job than the basic battle droid.
Their inbuild armguns fire at a faster ROF and presents the advantage that it can't be lost. They're taller, thus have a better filed of vision, but on the same time, they represent a fairly larger target to shoot at.

Gstone: they're cheap models. Cheap AI (don't ask), cheap equipment. They're just shitty armed tincans.

The question would be, how much heat such an oil-fire can generate.

Napalm generates temperatures of 800 to 1,200 degrees Celsius [1].

But that was only oil and not a chemical warfare, especially designed to generate high temperatures.

• Note, that R2D2 [2] is not armed. It is "only" an astromech droid [3]. At least, there is no evidence for weapons on R2D2 - as far as I know. All it has, is its equipment, it needs as an astromech droid. That's why there seems to be no reason to assume, that the oil was something other than common oil, which it could need for example as a lubricant or as hydraulic fluid or something similar.

How much heat would such common oil generate?

Mike DiCenso wrote:

Estrecca wrote:Such gaps in the armour would be lethal for a human trooper against chemical or biological weapons, but even retarded robots have no need to breathe and trying to use R2's trick in an army-wide scale would be absurdly expensive (and damaging to the battlefield).

Actually.... Napalm:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napalm

Most of the delivery methods seen in the article should be possible, especially for a relatively highly advanced society like the Galactic Republic.

Good plea.
I have thought of molotov cocktails [4].

Estrecca wrote:This, despite being less than stellar, is not quite as bad as it would seem at first. It is painfully evident that there are some gaps, particularly near the arm joints, between the armor plating and the vulnerable internal machinery. The fuel seems to have filtrated through those gaps and ignited something inside (some kind of fuel cell, perhaps?).

Do you think, they aren't waterproof? Then let us hope, that they are at least rust-proof and that intruding water don't short-circuit.

Estrecca wrote:Superbattledroids are meant to be mass-produced and despite being a far cry from perfect soldiers are an improvement over TPM battledroids (particularly because they have inbuilt weapons).

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Their inbuild armguns fire at a faster ROF and presents the advantage that it can't be lost.

Why are inbuild weapons an improvement?

What do you think happens more often? That a soldier lost its weapon or run out of munition?

I would really want to see, what a "SUPER BATTLE DROID" does, when its power cells are exhausted during a heavy battle. Open its armour to exchange the depleted power cell?

If they would use common weapons, it would only need to change the power cell from the weapon. And if there is no new power cell, it could still take a weapon from a fallen "comrade".

• • The inbuild armgun could be an emergency reserve, but should not be the one and only weapon they have.
  • To prevent, that they lose a common weapon (if they are to weak to hold them), this weapons could be equipped with a shoulder strap.
  • To prevent, that the enemy could use a lost weapon, they could have a safety measure, which would let only droids to use the weapon.

I don't see the advantage of these inbuild armguns.

Who is like God arbour wrote:Why are inbuild weapons an improvement?

For one, the recoil is directly managed with the arm's motors. Grip issues become totally irrelevant.

What do you think happens more often? That a soldier lost its weapon or run out of munition?

In the case of ammo running low, I don't actually see how the simple battle droids would be at an advantage... see below:

I would really want to see, what a "SUPER BATTLE DROID" does, when its power cells are exhausted during a heavy battle. Open its armour to exchange the depleted power cell?

Probably just eject the power cells in their arms, or wherever they are. I suppose that a SBD has more than one power cell, and that they're not all centralized to power all systems.

It's not a Termintor, if you see what I mean. It's more of a Kull warrior.

When a SB has no ammo left, it has to find new cells, or a new gun. Since I've never seen resupply vessels follow BD, I suppose that the only way they could reload would be to either use extra power cells they carry, but then I don't see why SBD couldn't carry those extra power cells as well, especially since they're bigger and thus theoretically possess more room to store them, or the BD would have to fall back to a troop carrier.

Besides, it's in fact largely possible that the SBD, likely beign more powerful, can actually carry heavier power cells, or more of them.

If they would use common weapons, it would only need to change the power cell from the weapon. And if there is no new power cell, it could still take a weapon from a fallen "comrade".

Yes, but it's fairly possible that a SBD could take the power cells from a fallen robomate was well.

The inbuild armgun could be an emergency reserve, but should not be the one and only weapon they have.

I think it's fine enough like that. They're not supposed to be multi purpose droids. The SBD are clearly meant to fight, nothing more, contrary to BD which are used in "control towers", such as in TPM.

Actually, those extra polyvalence systems being removed would allow teh Trade Federation to put more ressources on the devlopment of a droid model purely dedicated to fight.

Their hands are mittens: less motors used on useless fingers.

To prevent, that they lose a common weapon (if they are to weak to hold them), this weapons could be equipped with a shoulder strap.

And thus require more materials.
Remember, the Trade Federation's very cheap and greedy, and they go for minimal costs, even after the introduction of a new model.

Putting the weapon in the arm removes the need to make the weapon a pickable and handable weapon. When building millions and millions of droids, this weights a lot in the end.

I'd go as far to say that every single piece counts a lot.

To prevent, that the enemy could use a lost weapon, they could have a safety measure, which would let only droids to use the weapon.

A safety measure costs money and ressources.
Again, they're very likely spending the absolute minimum, making each cent useful.

Of course, less numerous, but more complex, richer and powerful expensive droids would have probably worked better.

Shielded droidekas for example. Even Jedi retreated against those.

But the TF went for numbers. It didn't pay in the end.

Well, untreated gasoline actually tends to burn hotter than napalm. Napalm's advantage is being very sticky; you'd expect a temperature of up to 2,000 C.

That said... I'm inclined to suggest this is a simple design flaw rather than some indication of shoddy workmanship. The Trade Federation didn't expect to see napalm on the battlefield, justifiably or not. SBDs could be otherwise perfectly fine (and we will note for the record that we can imagine not particularly bright human soldiers going through the exact same routine with R2 and ending up dead on the floor).

Those would have to be very stupid human soldiers, indeed, if they can't remember something as simple as dropping and rolling out of the burning oil puddle in just a few seconds.

Another interesting thing, in TNG's "Up the Long Ladder", we see the end result of an automated force-field based fire extinguishing system (starves the fire of oxygen). But here in this particular RoTS example, there does not appear to be any working fire extinguishing system for the Invisible Hand. When the Falcon was damaged by the Death Star sentry TIEs in ANH, it takes Artoo using his built-in extinguishing system to snuff out an electrical fire.
-Mike

Mr. Oragahn wrote:For one, the recoil is directly managed with the arm's motors.

Even with the armguns, the recoil - if STAR WARS blaster have a recoil at all - goes above the arm and not straight in the arm.

• • 

Furthermore, these "SUPER BATTLE DOIDS" look strong enough, that handling recoil shouldn't be a problem.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Grip issues become totally irrelevant.

That's a droid - not a human being. It doesn't let fall its weapon by mistake. When it holds its weapon, it has to "decide" to open the grip.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:I suppose that a SBD has more than one power cell, and that they're not all centralized to power all systems.
It's not a Termintor, if you see what I mean. It's more of a Kull warrior.

Possible.
I don't know much about these "SUPER BATTLE DROIDS".

Mr. Oragahn wrote:When a SB has no ammo left, it has to find new cells, or a new gun. Since I've never seen resupply vessels follow BD, I suppose that the only way they could reload would be to either use extra power cells they carry, but then I don't see why SBD couldn't carry those extra power cells as well, especially since they're bigger and thus theoretically possess more room to store them, or the BD would have to fall back to a troop carrier.

Maybe because we haven't realy seen so much battles - and no battles, which have taken more than a few hours.
But imagine a Star Wars equivalent to Stalingrad [1] or D-Day [2] with a really high munitions consumption and broken down supply lines.

• • 
    According to WOOKIEEPEDIA, the from the B1 battle droids used E-5 blaster rifle has 500 shots. [3]
    These are fired off eventually in a large battle. The "SUPER BATTLE DROIDS" will have the same problem evntually.
    (The german MG 42 has these 500 shots fired off in a half minute [4])

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Yes, but it's fairly possible that a SBD could take the power cells from a fallen robomate was well.

Yes, that's possible.
But such power cell would be protected by the armor, hence it is under the armour and the armour has to be opened, before one can reach the power cell.
A "SUPER BATTLE DROID" would have to open its own armour and the armour of its fallen "comrade", remove its own depleted power cell, take the power cell from the fallen "comrade", plug it in and close the own armour again (the armour of the fallen "comrade" can stay open).
That's very time-consuming and inefficient. In addition, the "SUPER BATTLE DROIDS" haven't the best fine motor skills with their huge hands.
In a gun battle, it is very important to change a magazine [5]/power cell as fast as possible.
A common weapon with exchangeable magazine / power cell is better IMO.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:And thus require more materials.
Remember, the Trade Federation's very cheap and greedy, and they go for minimal costs, even after the introduction of a new model.

Putting the weapon in the arm removes the need to make the weapon a pickable and handable weapon. When building millions and millions of droids, this weights a lot in the end.

I'd go as far to say that every single piece counts a lot.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:A safety measure costs money and ressources.
Again, they're very likely spending the absolute minimum, making each cent useful.

Of course, less numerous, but more complex, richer and powerful expensive droids would have probably worked better.

Shielded droidekas for example. Even Jedi retreated against those.

But the TF went for numbers. It didn't pay in the end.

Summarised: The "SUPER BATTLE DROIDS" are shoddy, because it wasn't more invested in them.

Jedi Master Spock wrote:Well, untreated gasoline actually tends to burn hotter than napalm. Napalm's advantage is being very sticky; you'd expect a temperature of up to 2,000 C.

Moment.

I'm not sure, I understand you correct.

Gasoline or petrol is a petroleum-derived liquid mixture consisting mostly of hydrocarbons and enhanced with benzene or iso-octane to increase octane ratings, primarily used as fuel in internal combustion engines. [6]

Doesn't this exclude the term "untreated gasoline" because gasoline is always treated?

And is the oil, R2D2 used, gasoline?

• I don't know, how Gasoline looks elsewhere, but the stuff, I fuel, looks very differet (But it is with 1,37 Euro/Liter also costlier than in the most other countries [7]. Maybe it is exceptionally good gasoline, which excuse the high price ;-).

What a temperature can one expect from simple petroleum, used as lubricant or another similar stuff, which is primary used as lubricant?

• • • 

Jedi Master Spock wrote:That said... I'm inclined to suggest this is a simple design flaw rather than some indication of shoddy workmanship. The Trade Federation didn't expect to see napalm on the battlefield, justifiably or not. SBDs could be otherwise perfectly fine (and we will note for the record that we can imagine not particularly bright human soldiers going through the exact same routine with R2 and ending up dead on the floor).

Agreed.
But when Star Wars weapons are so "almighty", doesn't one have to expect, that there are similar temperatures on a battlefield? There are Star Wars Fans, "who believe that standard ground [...] combat (a la Hoth) involves kiloton-scale weapons (1/20th Hiroshima)" [8]. Some of them argue, that a phaser, which is able to disintegrate solid rock [9], wouldn't be able to harm such "SUPER BATTLE DROIDS".

Who is like God arbour wrote:

Mr. Oragahn wrote:For one, the recoil is directly managed with the arm's motors.

Even with the armguns, the recoil - if STAR WARS blaster have a recoil at all - goes above the arm and not straight in the arm.

• • 

Furthermore, these "SUPER BATTLE DOIDS" look strong enough, that handling recoil shouldn't be a problem.

They may be off axis above the shoulder joint, but it's still a thousand times better than the way the way SBs handle their rifle, at the tip of slightly above the waist, notably because of the weakened handling and the numerous joint. The cannons on the arms of the SBD, if IIRC, do have mechanical recoil dampeners incorporated. When the SBD position their arm straight forward, it becomes a unique trunc from hand to shoulder.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Grip issues become totally irrelevant.

That's a droid - not a human being. It doesn't let fall its weapon by mistake. When it holds its weapon, it has to "decide" to open the grip.

The SB are cheaply built. I suppose that if they felt or were hit, their finger motors would momentarily loose the pressure and let the gun slip. These robots aren't particularily strong. gungans could brawl with them.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:When a SB has no ammo left, it has to find new cells, or a new gun. Since I've never seen resupply vessels follow BD, I suppose that the only way they could reload would be to either use extra power cells they carry, but then I don't see why SBD couldn't carry those extra power cells as well, especially since they're bigger and thus theoretically possess more room to store them, or the BD would have to fall back to a troop carrier.

Maybe because we haven't realy seen so much battles - and no battles, which have taken more than a few hours.
But imagine a Star Wars equivalent to Stalingrad [1] or D-Day [2] with a really high munitions consumption and broken down supply lines.

• • 
    According to WOOKIEEPEDIA, the from the B1 battle droids used E-5 blaster rifle has 500 shots. [3]
    These are fired off eventually in a large battle. The "SUPER BATTLE DROIDS" will have the same problem evntually.
    (The german MG 42 has these 500 shots fired off in a half minute [4])

In a way or another, the problem exists for both types of droids. The SBDs are just less likely to run out of power cells. They're bulkier, and thus more likely to pack larger and heavier power cells.
It's suppositions, but it follows logic.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Yes, but it's fairly possible that a SBD could take the power cells from a fallen robomate was well.

Yes, that's possible.
But such power cell would be protected by the armor, hence it is under the armour and the armour has to be opened, before one can reach the power cell.

If the power cells could be removed, I think there would be a system meant to quickly open the panel and grab the power cell. Again, in T3, a T-800 has an easy access to its power cells.

A "SUPER BATTLE DROID" would have to open its own armour and the armour of its fallen "comrade", remove its own depleted power cell, take the power cell from the fallen "comrade", plug it in and close the own armour again (the armour of the fallen "comrade" can stay open).
That's very time-consuming and inefficient.

Yes, it's faster to grab a rifle laying on the ground, but not that terribly faster, really. It can take five seconds to bow down, grab a rifle and stand up to aim it at a target.
It could just take 10-15 seconds at best for a SBD to bow down, eject the power cells by pressing a button on a fallen droid, auto open its own panel on the arm or somewhere behind the chest plate, slide the power cells there, autoclose the plates and voilà. All this could even be done while the SBD stands up, so really 15 seconds would really be a maximum.

In addition, the "SUPER BATTLE DROIDS" haven't the best fine motor skills with their huge hands.
In a gun battle, it is very important to change a magazine [5]/power cell as fast as possible.
A common weapon with exchangeable magazine / power cell is better IMO.

The SBD would just need power cells which are easy to handle with their mechanical mittens. Maybe they can literally drop their arm, and plug the arm of another SBD.

Summarised: The "SUPER BATTLE DROIDS" are shoddy, because it wasn't more invested in them.

That's my point, yes. They're better than the craptacular SB. I mean, come on, the SBs couldn't even shoot straight and hit men standing still four to ten meters in front of them!
Any slight improvement on those models is a revolution! :p

If the Trade Federation had produced those en masse instead, they'd have won.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:

Yes, it's faster to grab a rifle laying on the ground, but not that terribly faster, really. It can take five seconds to bow down, grab a rifle and stand up to aim it at a target.
It could just take 10-15 seconds at best for a SBD to bow down, eject the power cells by pressing a button on a fallen droid, auto open its own panel on the arm or somewhere behind the chest plate, slide the power cells there, autoclose the plates and voilà. All this could even be done while the SBD stands up, so really 15 seconds would really be a maximum.

It's still three times as long, and while you can grab a laying gun and then aim while moving, the SBD wil have to stand there, offering a superb still target to anyone looking in its direction.

I mean, come on, the SBs couldn't even shoot straight and hit men standing still four to ten meters in front of them!

So I guess that means that Stormtroopers were thaught to shoot by BD... :)

Who is like God arbour wrote: According to WOOKIEEPEDIA, the from the B1 battle droids used E-5 blaster rifle has 500 shots.

Ein moment, bitte.

500 shots - for a regular firearm, with regular firing rates - isn't such a bad supply. It's not too far from what you expect a modern soldier to schlep. Considering the rather reduced survival instinct present in battle droids, I'd call 500 rounds for a SBD's individual "pack" a decent supply.

Moment.

I'm not sure, I understand you correct.

Gasoline or petrol is a petroleum-derived liquid mixture consisting mostly of hydrocarbons and enhanced with benzene or iso-octane to increase octane ratings, primarily used as fuel in internal combustion engines. [6]

Doesn't this exclude the term "untreated gasoline" because gasoline is always treated?

And is the oil, R2D2 used, gasoline?

It probably burns more or less like it; even crude oil tends to burn at a temperature not too far from gasoline.

By "untreated," I refer to the process by which napalm is produced. Gasoline is mixed with a (not particularly flammable) gelling agent.

Mr. Orgahan:

That's something, in which we will not agree. I have nothing against these arm guns as secondary weapon. But not as the primary weapon.

My experience in the German BUNDESWEHR as a conscript indicates, that it is really important to be able to change a magazine as fast as possible.

Even your five seconds are far to long, a fortiori 15 seconds.

• And even these 15 seconds are depending on your supposition, that these "SUPER BATTLE DROIDS" have an pressable button, which could be pressed by someone else.
  What would be, if the power cell panel could be opened only by decision of its "SUPER BATTLE DROID" to prevent, that it open accidentally?

Furthermore, every WARSIE could confirm you, that the Enforcement Droid Series 209 wouldn't be a threat for the Storm-/Clonetroopers armour ;-)



Jedi Master Spock:

I haven't meant, that 500 shots are bad. But the E-5 blaster rifle is sure not a throw away rifle: you fire off these 500 shots and have to buy a new rifle.
There has to be somewhere something like a magazine, which hold the energy/gas/rounds for these 500 shots. And if the magazine is depleted, you change only the magazine and use the weapon again.
In a battle like D-Day, you will have to shoot a lot more than on a patrol, on which "Jeff" (a retired infantryman) takes 880 rounds.
And in such a battle, you will have to change your magazine more often.
Then, it is important to be able, to change your magazine as fast as possible.

Who is like God arbour wrote:Mr. Orgahan:

That's something, in which we will not agree. I have nothing against these arm guns as secondary weapon. But not as the primary weapon.

My experience in the German BUNDESWEHR as a conscript indicates, that it is really important to be able to change a magazine as fast as possible.

Even your five seconds are far to long, a fortiori 15 seconds.

We don't know how these robots reload their weapons, if they even can.
Admitedly, if the SBDs can't that's +1 for the SBs, and would fit with the cheap and expandable moto of the Trade Federation industries.

On the other end, just how many times do they have to reload, really?

Reload time wouldn't be that important in a case of weapons which have large ammo packs.

Plus in a domain where quantity prevails on quality, reload times are even less relevant, up to the point where the TF would likely produce one robot more rather than bother with reload times, procedures and adaptive AI.

• And even these 15 seconds are depending on your supposition, that these "SUPER BATTLE DROIDS" have an pressable button, which could be pressed by someone else.
  What would be, if the power cell panel could be opened only by decision of its "SUPER BATTLE DROID" to prevent, that it open accidentally?

An IF I have no answer to.

Furthermore, every WARSIE could confirm you, that the Enforcement Droid Series 209 wouldn't be a threat for the Storm-/Clonetroopers armour ;-)

Delusional people. The ED-209 come with armour, two heavy machine gun batteries and a mini rocket launcher, at least, if not two as well on each arm.

I'm yet to see a stormtrooper blaster do anything impressive in a combat situation.