Power output of a lightsaber

[Mr. Oragahn]

So I suppose Jedi use lavasabres, or can we return to the right topic? :p

[Praeothmin]

So I suppose Jedi use lavasabres

Well, don't they?... :)

Al this little tug-off-war between me and Mr. tone is simply because I believe that certain Jedi have heat resisting powers, or some sort of Force field (pun intended)... )

[GStone]

Well, the funny thing is I do some jogging as part of my training routine during the summer, in the outside heat.
And as much as I run, I don't cool off, because the more I run, the more I heat up my body, and the more I heat up my body, the more I feel hot.
If there are no cool air currents (i.e. northern winds), then I won't cool off while running, and I always end up soaking wet from sweating, which wouldn't happen if I cooled off because off the very small breeze I create while running.

Now, that's strange. When I was growing up, for several years I would switch between baseball and soccer, as each season turned up. When I ran when I was hot, especially in polyester baseball suits in the summer, I could feel distinctly very cool air hitting my face and I would cool down some. When I stopped, I started warming up again.

If they were standing in an environment in which the air was still, perhaps. But they aren't, they are in an environment where even only a tiny pocket of air that has a few degrees less of heat ill create air movement, which will create very warm breezes, since they are standing in a foundry like environment.

But, if the point of the shields is either heat deflection or reduction, that would create a cooler section.

[GStone]

So I suppose Jedi use lavasabres

Well, don't they?... :)

Al this little tug-off-war between me and Mr. tone is simply because I believe that certain Jedi have heat resisting powers, or some sort of Force field (pun intended)... )

Hey, that's Mr. toneR to you, bub. ;-)

Edit:

So I suppose Jedi use lavasabres, or can we return to the right topic? :p

Well, in seriousness, I think George's view of a laser based sword would be our best solution because that would require a space-time distortion to keep it in and excess heat would be retained within the distortion. It would also add a second source to keeping the jedi cooled because the heated air of mustafar would pass into the distortion and stay in there.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Okay, it's time to make this roll again.

So, looking at the sequence, we can spot a couple of things.

First, the blade instantly goes through the door, sticking out on the other end.

Material is immediately ignited and metal melts. But Qui-Gon makes sure the door is effectively cut.

Then two extra layers are closed upon the former door. Those extra layers seem twice as thick as the basic door.

When the first extra layer locks on, the blade is still seen sticking out by 10 cm. A frame by frame would probably show that the secondary door is instantaneous melting as well where it touches the blade, and that the blade is never disrutped.

That will be for short term power.

The last layer of the door has a part of its structure that is ring. Conveniently, the molten portion of the door is mostly located within that ring.

I think we need to know the lenght of the blade, knowing that the tilt of the blade was close to the door. I'll try to make stills if I can get some video editor.

[Lord Edam]

Depending on the material you choose for the doors, you'll probably end up with a power somewhere around 100MW

[Mike DiCenso]

Again, I would strongly caution that what we are seeing here with the lightsabre seeming to melt the blast doors' material may not solely be the result of a DET-based mechanism. While Edam's webpage has the two close up screencaps on it, it does not have the shot of the two Nemodians standing within 8-10 meters of the doors. Neither of them lifting so much as a hand to shield their faces, nor attempting to back away from what should be quite noticeable heat at that range, especially if the 100 MW number is correct.

Another observation that seeing those screencaps brings up; the melting on Qui-Gon's side of the doors is considerably smaller than the bridge side, suggesting that the "melting" effect is being projected outward in an approximately conical shape.
-Mike

[Mr. Oragahn]

Depending on the material you choose for the doors, you'll probably end up with a power somewhere around 100MW

This would seem to be a reliable low end figure, especially since the calcs are based on an iron door, and not steel.

There are few things we can add, eventually to improve the exactness of the figure.

There was some void between each blast door. Which means we'd have to segment the volume used for the calcs.

The lightsabre did indeed stick out of the secondary blast door, though the third one was too far and probably too thick, so the blade couldn't stick out of it:



Qui Gon appeared to switch the weapon to some sort of braod heat emitter. We can see that the door doesn't melt on Qui Gon's side as it did on the bridge's side. As you said, the model of heat radiation seems to be a cone.
We can also see that while the extra layers are closing, Qui Gon has stopped sliding his blade, yet there's no noticeable heating around the blade.

Once the final layer started to glow, the heated surface seemed to cover a surface wider than 30 cm. See:





We can see that once a thumb thick layer peels off, the material behind is glowing white hot, probably because the tip of the blade touches the other side of the third door:



As for the blade's lenght, we're sure it's around 1.5 meters?

[Mr. Oragahn]

Again, I would strongly caution that what we are seeing here with the lightsabre seeming to melt the blast doors' material may not solely be the result of a DET-based mechanism.

How? Molecules are imparted with extra energy. That shakes them. It's heat. There's a direct transfer of energy there.

While Edam's webpage has the two close up screencaps on it, it does not have the shot of the two Nemodians standing within 8-10 meters of the doors. Neither of them lifting so much as a hand to shield their faces, nor attempting to back away from what should be quite noticeable heat at that range, especially if the 100 MW number is correct.

Are we sure of that?
Besides, they look more than 10 meters away from the door.
Finally, Qui-Gon could be using the Force to focus the energy transfer, or actually have the blade's energy field, depending on the model you fancy, expand and still contain most of the energy.

Another observation that seeing those screencaps brings up; the melting on Qui-Gon's side of the doors is considerably smaller than the bridge side, suggesting that the "melting" effect is being projected outward in an approximately conical shape.
-Mike

This has already been adressed on the page he linked.

[Mike DiCenso]

Mr. Oragahn wrote:

How? Molecules are imparted with extra energy. That shakes them. It's heat. There's a direct transfer of energy there.

Just because there may be melting (glowing really) going on, doesn't mean it's the result of DET. Just like the pro-Wars people claim for a phaser, the lack of heat and the lack of anything else where lightsabres are concerned makes for the strong possiblity of a CR-based reaction. We've gone over it many times; the most damming aspect is when lightsabres are used around non-Force users or used by them. No heat apparent, and claiming the Force is responsible in each for protecting them in every case is a cop-out. Han handled a lightsabre and cut open a taun-taun without getting hit in the face with super-hot steam from what should have been the flash vaporization of the taun-taun's flesh. In other cases, like Anakin's (now Darth Vader) asassination of the Seperatist leadership, a strange glow appears where he cuts them, but there is no evidence of their clothing being set on fire, nor any puffs of super-heated steam from their flesh.

Besides, they look more than 10 meters away from the door.
Finally, Qui-Gon could be using the Force to focus the energy transfer, or actually have the blade's energy field, depending on the model you fancy, expand and still contain most of the energy.

The Nemoidans are certainly no more than 11-12 meters from the doors, based on scaling the doors to Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan who aren't more than 1.85m tall, and the Nemodians who are within normal human size range. The heat that would be radiating right at them should be causing them to flinch at the very least. So while the calcs done by Edam should be useful for an equivalency, I don't think it should be taken as an actual energy output for the lightsabres.
-Mike

[Mr. Oragahn]

Mr. Oragahn wrote:

How? Molecules are imparted with extra energy. That shakes them. It's heat. There's a direct transfer of energy there.

Just because there may be melting (glowing really) going on, doesn't mean it's the result of DET. Just like the pro-Wars people claim for a phaser, the lack of heat and the lack of anything else where lightsabres are concerned makes for the strong possiblity of a CR-based reaction. We've gone over it many times; the most damming aspect is when lightsabres are used around non-Force users or used by them. No heat apparent, and claiming the Force is responsible in each for protecting them in every case is a cop-out.

I don't consider the ability to contain a certain level of energy a cop-out. Jedi are able to direct Sith lightning towards their lightsabre (both Kenobi and Windu did it - or do you think the Sith were stupid enough not to aim at any other part of the anatomy with their arcing strikes, like hands, feet, head or whatever else?), and Yoda bare hands.
Huh, Yoda even absorbed the energy.

Han handled a lightsabre and cut open a taun-taun without getting hit in the face with super-hot steam from what should have been the flash vaporization of the taun-taun's flesh. In other cases, like Anakin's (now Darth Vader) asassination of the Seperatist leadership, a strange glow appears where he cuts them, but there is no evidence of their clothing being set on fire, nor any puffs of super-heated steam from their flesh.

I have already proposed dialable levels, which would perfectly fit here. I have evidenced at least two different behaviours for Qui Gon's weapon, a few seconds apart.
Which proves that Jedi can alter the behaviour of their weapon to some extent.
Dialing the weapon's yield up or down would eventually done by a turning a button on the hilt, or even by using the Force and altering certain mechanical components through telekinesis.

As for the Separatists, either their clothes have interesting tissues, or it's a screw up. The vast majority of elements point to simpler phenomenoms, and it's not the first time weird things occur in wars due to VFX (big asteroids that disappear, asteroids destroyed before bolt impact, scorchmarks disappearing, TIE fighter bolts missing the MF and doing nothing when supposedly hitting the super asteroid, etc.).

Besides, they look more than 10 meters away from the door.
Finally, Qui-Gon could be using the Force to focus the energy transfer, or actually have the blade's energy field, depending on the model you fancy, expand and still contain most of the energy.

The Nemoidans are certainly no more than 11-12 meters from the doors, based on scaling the doors to Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan who aren't more than 1.85m tall, and the Nemodians who are within normal human size range. The heat that would be radiating right at them should be causing them to flinch at the very least.

You claimed that there were Neimoidians standing even closer to the door than Nute and Rune did.
This is wrong.
Here's Nute and Rune's closest position:



Besides, Neimoidians may have a better aptitude to withstand hot temperatures.

So while the calcs done by Edam should be useful for an equivalency, I don't think it should be taken as an actual energy output for the lightsabres.
-Mike

What does it change? There is light, the material is luminous, so by definition it radiates energy. DET or not, the problem is still there.
Why immediately claim a CR reaction when it could be a very complex mechanism that still simply works on DET, but does it in such a way we cannot explain?
I bet even today, we can already have arcs of energy that emit relatively no harming heat and yet could be very dangerous if you put your hand in it.

Why couldn't the blade be a stream of photons, some kind of elongated light bullet, that becomes a light blade? It would loose a certain amount of light (the visible part), but not enough to become dangerous. Above all, it would release enough energy to cut relatively weak materials, but be able to melt sturdier elements through prolonjgated exposure to the blade.
The system could be self contained with some kind of field.

Seriously, the weapon is a huge mystery on its own, adding another unnecessary layer won't help. It's not like it makes matter vanish. It literally melts it. This is can't be denied.

[Mike DiCenso]

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
I don't consider the ability to contain a certain level of energy a cop-out. Jedi are able to direct Sith lightning towards their lightsabre (both Kenobi and Windu did it - or do you think the Sith were stupid enough not to aim at any other part of the anatomy with their arcing strikes, like hands, feet, head or whatever else?), and Yoda bare hands.
Huh, Yoda even absorbed the energy.

Windu did not use his hands, nor did Kenobi: both used their lightsabres (AoTC and RoTS). So far only Yoda has demonstrated the ability to deflect Force lightning, and that is not necessarily the same thing as deflecting EM spectrum radiation.

I have already proposed dialable levels, which would perfectly fit here. I have evidenced at least two different behaviours for Qui Gon's weapon, a few seconds apart.
Which proves that Jedi can alter the behaviour of their weapon to some extent.
Dialing the weapon's yield up or down would eventually done by a turning a button on the hilt, or even by using the Force and altering certain mechanical components through telekinesis.

That seems a bit over-complicated to me. The twisting of the handle seems more reasonable in that we see Qui-Gon actually rotate the handle of his lightsabre in the TPM door scene. But if the Jedi had that ability, then why not simply keep their weapons set for a simple stun mode ever time they face living beings instead of always defaulting to a "kill" setting?

As for the Separatists, either their clothes have interesting tissues, or it's a screw up. The vast majority of elements point to simpler phenomenoms, and it's not the first time weird things occur in wars due to VFX (big asteroids that disappear, asteroids destroyed before bolt impact, scorchmarks disappearing, TIE fighter bolts missing the MF and doing nothing when supposedly hitting the super asteroid, etc.).

The clothing being made out of "interesting materials" doesn't hold up, really, anymore than the claims of Stormtrooper armor being so awesome. The only thing that remotely supports the idea is the brief mention of nanosilkweave for Count Dooku's clothing in the RoTS novelization.

Claiming "FX mistake" doesn't hold up, either since we have multiple instances of similar phenomena occuring.

Besides, they look more than 10 meters away from the door.
Finally, Qui-Gon could be using the Force to focus the energy transfer, or actually have the blade's energy field, depending on the model you fancy, expand and still contain most of the energy.

You claimed that there were Neimoidians standing even closer to the door than Nute and Rune did.
This is wrong.
Here's Nute and Rune's closest position:


Actually, you need to reread what I wrote, and your image isn't showing up. In the scene with Nute and Rune, they are certainly well within 11-12 meters.

Besides, Neimoidians may have a better aptitude to withstand hot temperatures.

Speculation; no evidence backs that up.

What does it change? There is light, the material is luminous, so by definition it radiates energy. DET or not, the problem is still there.
Why immediately claim a CR reaction when it could be a very complex mechanism that still simply works on DET, but does it in such a way we cannot explain?
I bet even today, we can already have arcs of energy that emit relatively no harming heat and yet could be very dangerous if you put your hand in it.

Why couldn't the blade be a stream of photons, some kind of elongated light bullet, that becomes a light blade? It would loose a certain amount of light (the visible part), but not enough to become dangerous. Above all, it would release enough energy to cut relatively weak materials, but be able to melt sturdier elements through prolonjgated exposure to the blade.
The system could be self contained with some kind of field.

Seriously, the weapon is a huge mystery on its own, adding another unnecessary layer won't help. It's not like it makes matter vanish. It literally melts it. This is can't be denied.

Actually what we see is that most of the material isn't melted, just mostly made to glow and crumble out of the hole being drilled by the lightsabre.
Even working with an arc welder requires specialized protective gear, such as a mask and clothing. You just can't get around the fact that there should be an immense amount of heat being released to the air around Qui-Gon and to Nute and Rune, assuming 100-155 MW.
-Mike

[Mr. Oragahn]

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
I don't consider the ability to contain a certain level of energy a cop-out. Jedi are able to direct Sith lightning towards their lightsabre (both Kenobi and Windu did it - or do you think the Sith were stupid enough not to aim at any other part of the anatomy with their arcing strikes, like hands, feet, head or whatever else?), and Yoda bare hands.
Huh, Yoda even absorbed the energy.

Windu did not use his hands, nor did Kenobi: both used their lightsabres (AoTC and RoTS).

I know, since I mentionned the lightsabres. The point is that it's extremely convenient that the lightning bolts actually came in contact with the lightsabres's blades all the time the Sith had been firing them. As I said, they could have tried hitting other parts of the weilder. You don't see Dooku's or Sidious' energy arcs hitting their targets from other angles, even if it would have been the first thing to do once a Jedi put his blade between him and the lightning bolts.
The lightning bolts were sort of magnetized onto the blades. That adds a theory to the two previous suggestions:

1. Sith are extremely stupid and keep firing at the "shield".
2. The Jedi can direct the lightning bolts towards their lightsabres.
3. The lightning bolts were sucked in by the blades.

I take option 2.

So far only Yoda has demonstrated the ability to deflect Force lightning, and that is not necessarily the same thing as deflecting EM spectrum radiation.

It's akin to deflect super heated ionized gas. I believe that once you can deflect that, you can at least deflect light without too much problem.

I have already proposed dialable levels, which would perfectly fit here. I have evidenced at least two different behaviours for Qui Gon's weapon, a few seconds apart.
Which proves that Jedi can alter the behaviour of their weapon to some extent.
Dialing the weapon's yield up or down would eventually done by a turning a button on the hilt, or even by using the Force and altering certain mechanical components through telekinesis.

That seems a bit over-complicated to me. The twisting of the handle seems more reasonable in that we see Qui-Gon actually rotate the handle of his lightsabre in the TPM door scene. But if the Jedi had that ability, then why not simply keep their weapons set for a simple stun mode ever time they face living beings instead of always defaulting to a "kill" setting?

Did I say that the minimal yield corresponded to stun? I'm the first one to condemn the lack of such a feature on lightsabres.

As for the Separatists, either their clothes have interesting tissues, or it's a screw up. The vast majority of elements point to simpler phenomenoms, and it's not the first time weird things occur in wars due to VFX (big asteroids that disappear, asteroids destroyed before bolt impact, scorchmarks disappearing, TIE fighter bolts missing the MF and doing nothing when supposedly hitting the super asteroid, etc.).

The clothing being made out of "interesting materials" doesn't hold up, really, anymore than the claims of Stormtrooper armor being so awesome. The only thing that remotely supports the idea is the brief mention of nanosilkweave for Count Dooku's clothing in the RoTS novelization.

Claiming "FX mistake" doesn't hold up, either since we have multiple instances of similar phenomena occuring.

Just as much as we have many TIE bolts hitting the big asteroid and doing nothing at all?

Actually, you need to reread what I wrote

Even if they (Nute Gunray and Rune) were far enough not to catch fire, they could have been close enough that they would have to be shielding their faces, or reacting in some way other than fear of the Jedi coming through. There is also the matter of how much closer to the door the other Nemoidian bridge crew members were.

Why mention those others Neimoidians if they were totally irrelevant, since farther from the door than Nute and Rune. This line was brought by you to actually tell the contrary, that Nute and Rune weren't the closest members of their species to the door.

and your image isn't showing up.

Sorry. It's from Photobucket. Are the other pics I posted on this page showing up, at least?

In the scene with Nute and Rune, they are certainly well within 11-12 meters.

I'd say more like 12-15 meters.

Besides, Neimoidians may have a better aptitude to withstand hot temperatures.

Speculation; no evidence backs that up.

Would be just as reasonnable when talking about aliens with eyelids and blue skin than trying to enforce a CR theory upon a weapon that is already complicated enough.

Actually what we see is that most of the material isn't melted, just mostly made to glow and crumble out of the hole being drilled by the lightsabre.

Just like a material that inflates as it's heated up, melted, and gets pushed out of a hole. You'd get the exact same effect.
The material that is made to glow is melted. It literally drips out of the trench the blade cuts.
Then there's the material on the other end of the door, but it's quite melted, since we can see a layer that gets decomposed and falls off the door, revealing a white glowing material behind.

Even working with an arc welder requires specialized protective gear, such as a mask and clothing. You just can't get around the fact that there should be an immense amount of heat being released to the air around Qui-Gon and to Nute and Rune, assuming 100-155 MW. -Mike

I don't deny Qui-Gon impressive feat, but I dismiss it through Force woozah.
we could even suppose that Qui Gon recycled some of the energy to make the metal melt faster.

Plus how much energy will melted material radiate? It's not a perfect black body here.

Finally, how claiming a CR will prove better at explaining why those Neimoidians don't feel unconfortable about sitting more than ten meters away from a door which is partially melting, to the literaly sense of the term?

[SailorSaturn13]

Just like the pro-Wars people claim for a phaser, the lack of heat and the lack of anything else where lightsabres are concerned makes for the strong possiblity of a CR-based reaction.

It doesn't. It indicates controlled transfer of energy, but not a chain reaction.

I bet even today, we can already have arcs of energy that emit relatively no harming heat and yet could be very dangerous if you put your hand in it.

Even working with an arc welder requires specialized protective gear, such as a mask and clothing. You just can't get around the fact that there should be an immense amount of heat being released to the air around Qui-Gon and to Nute and Rune, assuming 100-155 MW.

Actually,no. The electric arc workers have gear that protects from sparks and electricity, but not heat.