At which point did ST:Voy go down the tubes?

[AFT]

Yes, especially sometimes we have GREAT continuity. The "infect Borg with a virus" plan of "Endgame" was first introduced in TNG, for example. Though how Janeway got to be an admiral I don't understand...

Are you sure this isn't sarcasm? Future Janeway destroyed the Borg with a virus, in order to save about 3 or 4 crew members from death, even though easily twice that many had died earlier. Why didn't she go to the beginning of the whole ordeal and end it before it started? Plus the whole batmobile armor and magic transphasic torpedoes that kills anything breaks general ST continuity.

How come new weaponry and defense systems developed on the near future “breaks general ST continuity”? I guess Quantum torpedoes and Pulse Phaser Cannons are also a breach of continuity? I guess you didn’t watch the episode were it was established that the Borg encounter started the development of countermeasures against them with the later as the first to came on-line and the former more than likely just entered service a couple of decades down the road? Some concepts take a lot longer to go from the drawing board to be operative on the field. In fact, you can say that it’s a show of continuity that Starfleet continued to develop weapons and defense systems to face the Borg menace on the foreseeable future.

[Nonamer]

They always seem to have "Yet Another Shuttle", even though they should be having a shortage of supplies of all sorts, just for starters.

That by itself is not a lack of continuity, as they never said that they cannot build shuttles on board, at best you can say that it stretches credibility but not really since as a ship designed for deep space exploration it should come equipped with industrial replicators by design.

They only have about 2 shuttles I believe. There usage of them were way out of whack because they always had more.

In fact, Voyager never seemed to have any shortages whatsoever

Then you didn’t watch close enough, especially on the first seasons they did have to deal with shortages of several kinds, to the point that replicators had to be rationed, at some point they ran out of deuterium and they had to search for dilithium more than once, in fact it was only because Voyager was designed for long range exploration that they were able to manage the situation they were in, the Equinox is the perfect example of the opposite, just in case that you don’t know she was an Starfleet science vessel meant for short range planetary survey and was dragged to the DQ just as Voyager, but unlike them they were on a very bad shape when they ran into Voyager at the end of the Sixth Season, which it’s not very surprising since that ship class was no meant for deep space exploration.

I'm not sure why I said "never" when they clearly had shortages in the early seasons. In the later ones, they seem to have none at all. That's when the problem comes in, since they just don't seem to be lost in space anymore.

and breathlessly blew away the Borg and every other Alien of the week with overwhelming power. Nearly all later events were regularly reset. At least in the beginning characters died, yet in the later episodes hardly anyone died, and when someone did die they reset the plot some how (time traveling usually, though Harry Kim's replacement with another Harry Kim is unique). It was just terrible all around to be a serious fan of Voyager. Yes, sure it was pretty good quality sci-fi, and casual sci-fi watchers could get into with realizing anything, but they would notice if they kept on watching.

Are you sure that you watched Voyager or you just jumped on the general wagon of Voyager lack of continuity? With the exception of Endgame, Voyager never “breathlessly blew away the Borg”, as a matter of fact they always barely escaped the few encounters they had with them and only because that suited the Borg queen intentions but mostly because of sheer dumb luck, and a bit of determination and resourcefulness from her crew I should add.

And yet completely unscathed every time. That counts as breathlessly winning each time. By the end, it was totally ridiculous and the Borg were a joke, since they won every single time, period. One particularly big offender was when they were assimilated but sill somehow managed to keep themselves from being mind-controlled, somehow without the Borg knowing about it. The Borg were made to look totally incompetent instead of the unstoppable force they were previously.

As for the other Aliens of the week, the DQ was described as a relatively primitive region of space, therefore most of the time Voyager had superior technology and ergo superior firepower and even though they got their ass kicked more than once. As the other examples you mentioned, they maybe are stretches of credibility, plot resets, whatever, but they are not breaches of continuity as they didn’t contradict a previous event or established background.

But the plot resets and logical stretches do hurt continuity. Perhaps no hard breaks, but they are questionable events that gives it a feeling of a lack of continuity.

[Nonamer]

Yes, especially sometimes we have GREAT continuity. The "infect Borg with a virus" plan of "Endgame" was first introduced in TNG, for example. Though how Janeway got to be an admiral I don't understand...

Are you sure this isn't sarcasm? Future Janeway destroyed the Borg with a virus, in order to save about 3 or 4 crew members from death, even though easily twice that many had died earlier. Why didn't she go to the beginning of the whole ordeal and end it before it started? Plus the whole batmobile armor and magic transphasic torpedoes that kills anything breaks general ST continuity.

How come new weaponry and defense systems developed on the near future “breaks general ST continuity”? I guess Quantum torpedoes and Pulse Phaser Cannons are also a breach of continuity? I guess you didn’t watch the episode were it was established that the Borg encounter started the development of countermeasures against them with the later as the first to came on-line and the former more than likely just entered service a couple of decades down the road? Some concepts take a lot longer to go from the drawing board to be operative on the field. In fact, you can say that it’s a show of continuity that Starfleet continued to develop weapons and defense systems to face the Borg menace on the foreseeable future.

They were magic weapons, not new, logical tech. A transphasic torpedo took out a whole cube with about one shot, and the armor made them invulnerable. Furthermore, somehow a single ship lost in space were able to develop and make them, which is just absurd. This level of super-tech is just breaking continuity. Plus they completely failed to explain why future Janeway would time travel like that, considering what much smarter timeline changes should could have done.

[AFT]

They only have about 2 shuttles I believe. There usage of them were way out of whack because they always had more.

That at best is background information, there was never established on the show how many they started with, nor how many they could storage on the shuttle bay and of course if they lack or not the ability to manufacture more. You can claim that it is a stretch of credibility that a lost ship low on resources was able to build new shuttles every time that they lost one but that is, once again, not a breach of continuity.

I'm not sure why I said "never" when they clearly had shortages in the early seasons. In the later ones, they seem to have none at all. That's when the problem comes in, since they just don't seem to be lost in space anymore.

That makes sense actually, at the beginning they were on an unexpected situation and obviously had a lot of problems as they were unprepared, but as they gained experience they seemed to not have those problems anymore, but that’s only because they learned to manage the situation they were in. Anyway, the problem with the deuterium was on the Fifth Season and they were searching for dilithium crystals as late as the Sixth Season. See, they never stop having supply problems, just managed to reduce them somehow.

And yet completely unscathed every time. That counts as breathlessly winning each time. By the end, it was totally ridiculous and the Borg were a joke, since they won every single time, period.

No, here you are mistaken, they never “won” against the Borg at all, they barely escaped every time taking damage and casualties, their only “victory” was against a damn probe, for crying out loud.

One particularly big offender was when they were assimilated but sill somehow managed to keep themselves from being mind-controlled, somehow without the Borg knowing about it. The Borg were made to look totally incompetent instead of the unstoppable force they were previously.

On one of my previous posts I said that the turning point for Voyager were the Unimatrix Zero episodes, they were simply out of their mind when they made those. No one is arguing that, but that was at the end of the Sixth Season and beginning of the Seventh Season, claiming a lack of continuity throughout Voyager because of this late offenders is…not correct.

But the plot resets and logical stretches do hurt continuity. Perhaps no hard breaks, but they are questionable events that gives it a feeling of a lack of continuity.

Again, why? I certainly don’t follow your kind of logic…it seems to me that Voyager stretches credibility a little too much for your tastes and therefore you don’t like the show and that’s OK because it’s your right to decide whether you like it or not, but blaming your dislike on the lack of continuity is misplaced, as is clearly not the case.

[AFT]

They were magic weapons, not new, logical tech. A transphasic torpedo took out a whole cube with about one shot, and the armor made them invulnerable. Furthermore, somehow a single ship lost in space were able to develop and make them, which is just absurd. This level of super-tech is just breaking continuity. Plus they completely failed to explain why future Janeway would time travel like that, considering what much smarter timeline changes should could have done.

They were advanced weapons brought from the future and IMHO logical developments of the ablative armor and quantum torpedoes currently on service and all those weapons systems are canonically stated to be developed to fight the Borg, what a shock, so at least for me it makes sense. As for its performance, I would expect weaponry from the future to be quite powerful, you might say “the problem is that it’s too powerful to be believable” but that is not necessarily so, quantum torpedoes destroyed the Borg sphere during FC just fine and moreover, phasers and photon torpedoes aboard the Enterprise D were enough to destroy the Borg cube during Q Who? before they adapted and that’s the point, during Endgame they were trying to adapt to the new weaponry but were having problems to do so with the more advanced technology. Speaking of adaptability, that Borg ability seems like magic but since their technology is far more advanced than most it’s only logical, although in your eyes I guess it is also a breach of continuity.

The armor didn’t make them invulnerable, accumulative attacks brought the armor to the point of completely failure some time before the episode ended. And Voyager didn’t developed those systems, Admiral Janeway gave them the schematics and briefed them on how to use those new systems. So, in short, not break of continuity whatsoever. And as why Admiral Janeway choose that particular moment to alter history my guess is that she thought that that was the best moment to do so, was it the smarter moment? Probably no, but we just don’t know the decision process that lead her to that conclusion, complaining about it it’s just nitpicking IMHO of course, your mileage may vary.

[Nonamer]

I don't we're making much ground here. I've of the opinion that the weak logical continuity breaks continuity, and you don't, and that it only stretches plausibility. Probably we should call it a day and agree to disagree. Though I will say Threshold (biggest Voy offender) is completely ridiculous and I think you'll agree.

[AFT]

I don't we're making much ground here. I've of the opinion that the weak logical continuity breaks continuity, and you don't, and that it only stretches plausibility. Probably we should call it a day and agree to disagree. Though I will say Threshold (biggest Voy offender) is completely ridiculous and I think you'll agree.

Ahh, well, at least it was a civilized conversation so I guess it wasn’t completely useless. And what "Threshold"? That didn’t happened at all, nope, never…Are we clear about it? Yeah, I knew we will.

[GStone]

[does evil madman laugh]

We will never be rid of Threshold! Are you familiar with all those images of dual lobe warp field shecmatics, where we see a series of arcs around the front and around the back of the ship, all meeting at around the center of the ship?! Hu?! Huh?!

It's a noncanon given that the front contracts space and the rear expands it. If nothing else, the dialogue says the the nacelles are ripped from the rest of the ship.

It's confirmed with all those images!

Muahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!

[AFT]

[does evil madman laugh]

We will never be rid of Threshold! Are you familiar with all those images of dual lobe warp field shecmatics, where we see a series of arcs around the front and around the back of the ship, all meeting at around the center of the ship?! Hu?! Huh?!

It's a noncanon given that the front contracts space and the rear expands it. If nothing else, the dialogue says the the nacelles are ripped from the rest of the ship.

It's confirmed with all those images!

Muahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!

No, that’s not true, I refuse to believe that ever happened…Yes, it was some kind of deception, yeah, that’s the ticket, it was an alien plot to make us loose faith on the otherwise excellent Voyager’s team of writers! You see? It was only a fantasy, not real, like a holographic simulation, see? There’s nothing to worry about…Yes, I knew it, that never happened.

[GStone]

PPfffbbbtttt.

;-)

[SailorSaturn13]

They were magic weapons, not new, logical tech. A transphasic torpedo took out a whole cube with about one shot, and the armor made them invulnerable. Furthermore, somehow a single ship lost in space were able to develop and make them, which is just absurd. This level of super-tech is just breaking continuity. Plus they completely failed to explain why future Janeway would time travel like that, considering what much smarter time line changes should could have done.

Until Borg adapted, that is. 25 years are a big time to develop weapons. And Borg, when not adapted to a system, suffer badly. Admiral Janeway herself explained they had little time before Borg adapt.

In the later ones, they seem to have none at all. That's when the problem comes in, since they just don't seem to be lost in space anymore.

trade and mining solved problems,. though some things were seeked continuously

One particularly big offender was when they were assimilated but sill somehow managed to keep themselves from being mind-controlled, somehow without the Borg knowing about it. The Borg were made to look totally incompetent instead of the unstoppable force they were previously.

That is the whole point of Borg arc. Their strength is the assimilation. So we go from learning about it (Best of Both Worlds), to trying counteracting it (ST VIII:FC) . then we have "Scorpion", where we learn of 8472, which can counteract assimilation. Then, in "Unimatrix" they learn to negate its effects in humans, and in "Endgame", assimilation is used against the Borg, destroying the collective, as was planned through TNG. This IS a nice continuity.