Federation of Socialist Planets?

[CrippledVulture]

It's a very interesting point, and I think one which Roddenberry might agree with. A primary key to Marx's thinking is that the worker's choice is work or starve is no choice at all; when this choice is no longer forced, many of his arguments simply no longer apply.

The utopian nature of this vision of the Federation is one of Star Trek's main assets. While some, such as Scott Adams, feel it is completely implausible that a society could function this way, it's hard to dispute the Federation seems like paradise. (Unless we're talking about the occasional war, act of Q, alien plague, or other [un]natural disaster.)

Since Star Trek fails (or chooses not to) present a complete picture of society, I feel that we must take into consideration the concerns of Mr. Roddenberry, who was certainly interested in utopia.

Star Wars is the story of brave rebels fighting against an unjust empire. However, we don't really see just what is so bad about it as far as the average citizen is concerned (I'm talking about the events prior to the original three films, before the Senate was disbanded and Alderaan destroyed, clear evil). I could, therefore make the case that the rebellion is not so idealistic, but is rather orchestrated by the hierarchy that was cast from power in an attempt to restore that power. I won't do that, though, because that was clearly not Lucas's intent. I always imagined that the third prequel would cover this subject, life under the Empire and the beginning of the rebellion, and was sad to see this was not the case. I do believe it will be the subject of the upcoming TV series, which (against my better judgment) I am looking forward to.

The point is that Star Trek is not a space opera about rebellion against an evil empire. It is ultimately an uplifting story about humanity, so often petty and evil these days. Gene Roddenberry depicted a future in which we finally learn from our mistakes, a future in which we finally learn to work together, to treat each other and even the unknown with compassion.

That is why I got so emotional when I read Wong's essay. Because Gene Roddenberry's goal is an honorable one. We live in a tumultuous age, directly following another one (the Cold War). I sometimes find it hard to even read the news without weeping for humanity. Star Trek believes in us. It makes us feel good about ourselves. That's why I love Star Trek. For those jerks to sully it just because they think the Empire would win in a war with the Federation, strikes a chord with me.

I apologize for getting all wishy-washy.

[SailorSaturn13]

it's hard to dispute the Federation seems like paradise.

It is canon.
See "The Maquis"
Sisco: On Earth there's no poverty, no crime,
no war. You look out the window of
Starfleet headquarters and you see...
paradise. Well, it's easy to be a
saint in paradise.

Or he would have known that the dermal regenerator does just that: it allows wounds to knit themselves by accelerating the healing process. It couldn't be used to close someones mouth permanently, for example.

Well, it's a joke site, after all.

I don't really know. In the context of my argument with Mr. Wong, I took issue with his claims that the Federation has abolished property rights, controls all access to transportation and communication, has no currency, has outlawed free enterprise, and that replicators (which, at the point of the discussion, I had actually underestimated) would have little social impact. Citing as evidence his complete lack of evidence to cite.

A,ll wrong: personal ships exist (Lwaxana), copyrights, credits.

Replicators have huge effect btw. They effectively divide the economy in two. The only valuable things are: raw resources, which cannot always be replicated, information/patents/know-how/copyrights, and a couple of things that must be hand crafted. They are heavily service-oriented.
And if we remember Marx, thyt the way a society is organised depends on how it handles production, their role is huge.

[watchdog]

I dont know much of anything about communism, but while there may be some socialist ideas in trek, they have never been the driving force behind trek. MW said it himself once that trek was designed to appeal directly to American ideals and he felt that star wars was designed to appeal to a more diverse world wide audience. His attempt to do a 180 and make wars more american due to its capitalism smacks of a double standard to me.
The economy in trek has never really been fleshed out throughout trek history, in ST4 Kirk notes that 20th century people are still using money, in ST3 Dr. McCoy tried to buy passage to Genisis with credits that he had, ST6 Scotty bought a boat. In TOS catspaw they try to bribe Kirk with jewels to which he claims they can produce a ton of such things on his ship (replicators maybe), only later to note a fortune in diamonds on the planet with the Gorn. In trek the most capitalistic force seen are the Ferengi but they represent the extreme of capitalism.
As to the utopian ideas of trek, I never cared for the idea myself as was portrayed in trek. I dont believe in true utopias and the idea seems unrealistic to me. I think thats one of the reasons I grew to like DS9 so much, they explored some of the darker aspects of trek which was never explored in the other versions (I'm thinking about some of the things done to chief O'Brien).

[Ted C]

Mike had a fairly straightforward method in his essay: see if the Federation fulfilled the basic goals of the Communist Manifesto. If the answer was fundamentally "yes", then the Federation was communistic.

I think the most telling point he brought up was the people in the Federation, including Starfleet Captain Jean-Luc Picard, didn't even understand the concept of investment. DS9 hammered the point home with Jake trying to explain the Federation's economic system to Nog, while Nog had to teach the most basic concepts of investment and trade to Jake.

To make the situation even more obvious, Federation citizens have, by and large, stopped seeking to accumulate personal wealth and instead work "for the good of society". No matter how you slice it, that's an extremely communistic set of priorities. It isn't necessarily bad, and it certainly seems to work well enough for the Federation, but it's definitely communism.

You can argue trivialities like "the Picard vinyard" or "the Sisko cajun restaurant" as much as you want, but those are outliers at best. The instances of Federation control of transport, manufacturing, research, and communications completely overwhelm the occasional mention of an independent business, especially since the "independence" of those businesses is fairly tenuous.

[Ted C]

MW said it himself once that trek was designed to appeal directly to American ideals and he felt that star wars was designed to appeal to a more diverse world wide audience.

I'll clarify that Mike claims that Star Trek is designed to promote liberal American values and appeal to a liberal audience, while Star Wars targets a broader audience.

[GStone]

Mike had a fairly straightforward method in his essay: see if the Federation fulfilled the basic goals of the Communist Manifesto. If the answer was fundamentally "yes", then the Federation was communistic.

What fails in the comparrison is that just because something shares some of the views of a type of society, that doesn't make it basically like that society.

I think the most telling point he brought up was the people in the Federation, including Starfleet Captain Jean-Luc Picard, didn't even understand the concept of investment. DS9 hammered the point home with Jake trying to explain the Federation's economic system to Nog, while Nog had to teach the most basic concepts of investment and trade to Jake.

Didn't understand investiments? You're basing this on what Jake didn't know? Most people on the planet in real life don't know anything about investing.

To make the situation even more obvious, Federation citizens have, by and large, stopped seeking to accumulate personal wealth and instead work "for the good of society".

They did that because of the idea that most of humanity set aside most of their petty differences, not the kind where the petty differences remain, but if they step out of line or refuse what they are given, they gotta go to the back of the line before they get another chance.

Are you saying that communities that work to clean litter from their beighborhoods/highways, start up a neighborhood watch, set up community outreach programs and after school programs for kids, etc. are communistic?

You can argue trivialities like "the Picard vinyard" or "the Sisko cajun restaurant" as much as you want, but those are outliers at best.

Based on what? We've only been shown a few examples on a couple worlds.

The instances of Federation control of transport, manufacturing, research, and communications completely overwhelm the occasional mention of an independent business, especially since the "independence" of those businesses is fairly tenuous.

I'd like to see evidence that civilians aren't allowed to build communication systems for themselves or build their own transports or buildings/structures.

[Jedi Master Spock]

Mike had a fairly straightforward method in his essay: see if the Federation fulfilled the basic goals of the Communist Manifesto. If the answer was fundamentally "yes", then the Federation was communistic.

Which would be perfectly fine. I would say that the Federation does a very good job of addressing the problems outlined in the Communist Manifesto.

You can argue trivialities like "the Picard vinyard" or "the Sisko cajun restaurant" as much as you want, but those are outliers at best.

All of them? Ted C, the problem is that all the available datapoints indicate that small businesses operate just fine in the Federation. These aren't outliers; these (and the handful of similar examples seen in, for example, Mudd's Women) are the whole of the data. I can't think of a single case in which the Federation halted the operation of a small business for reasons that wouldn't happen today (e.g., "You are manufacturing and distributing an addictive device that takes over the minds of their users for your own nefarious ends.")

The instances of Federation control of transport, manufacturing, research, and communications completely overwhelm the occasional mention of an independent business, especially since the "independence" of those businesses is fairly tenuous.

What instances? The whole argument that the Federation exercises totalitarian control in these many fields is at best founded on a lack of explicit evidence to the contrary.

The best case available for claiming that the Federation "controls" research to any notable degree (i.e., outside of trying to bury deadly military projects like Genesis, Omega, etc., which is a trait the Federation shares with modern capitalistic societies) is that the Hansens sought permission and support from the Federation in their Borg studies. Even then, the evidence is ambiguous as to whether the Raven was truly a Starfleet ship or private ship. Even then, the argument falls apart; what happened there was the modern equivalent of getting a research grant.

Control of transport? Definitely not, we've already mentioned numerous counter-examples of that from TOS to STIII to DS9.

Communications? I've already explained why it would be outright impossible to control communications in the TNG era when a replicable comm unit can transmit light years.

Manufacturing? What example are we trying to invoke here - "The Game," in which the manufacturers of an otherwise legal privately manufactured and distributed recreational game get into trouble because it turns out to be an addictive mind-control device? There's nothing to back up the claim that the Federation has centralized control over manufacturing.

In fact, there are strong indicators that the "Federation" has centralized control over nothing. Check out "The Cloud Minders," one of a number of episodes in which we see just how far a Federation member can depart from Earth's norms. The Federation itself is simply a loose coalition of member societies with their own laws and customs - some more liberal than others.

[Mike DiCenso]

Jedi Master Spock wrote:
In fact, there are strong indicators that the "Federation" has centralized control over nothing. Check out "The Cloud Minders," one of a number of episodes in which we see just how far a Federation member can depart from Earth's norms. The Federation itself is simply a loose coalition of member societies with their own laws and customs - some more liberal than others.

A good point here, JMS. I think one thing people keep forgetting is that not all that many of the Federation worlds appear to follow the "Earth Model" for economics. When you actually look at the episodes, most of the "We don't use money anymore" stuff is in reference to Earth society. Quite often we have seen and heard that other Federation members make use of money. In Voyager's "The Gift", Janeway tells Kes about Tuvok's meditation lamp and how the Vulcan master who sold it to them doubled the price apon seeing their Starfleet insiginas. This is an interesting bit of information since Vulcan is one of the four primary founding members of the Federation, and it shows us that each member goes about doing it's own thing, so long as it does not violate certain basic overall rights for Federation citizens.
-Mike

[watchdog]

I'll clarify that Mike claims that Star Trek is designed to promote liberal American values and appeal to a liberal audience, while Star Wars targets a broader audience.

Maybe that is what he ment but I'm only quoting what was said. I would agree with you however that Star Trek is very liberal in its values and outlook, but despite what the Rush Limbaughs of the world may think, that alone does not mean its a communist/socialist oligarchy.
Besides, I highly doubt that Star Wars fans flock to it for its rosy political view, the government in Wars hardly seems to work at the best of times.

[sonofccn]

I would agree with you however that Star Trek is very liberal in its values and outlook, but despite what the Rush Limbaughs of the world may think, that alone does not mean its a communist/socialist oligarchy.

I'm guessing your not a huge fan? :)

In seriousness Trek left leaning tendencies to me atleast seem to suggest a socialist type state for Earth. Not commies by any stretch but something more like what I believe Europe is like. Atleast that's my two cents on the matter.

Besides, I highly doubt that Star Wars fans flock to it for its rosy political view, the government in Wars hardly seems to work at the best of times.

The starwars goverment works. Works at keeping midlevel do nothing goverment officals employed. Think about it, just about every one of the starwars goverments both in film and EU has corruption, disorgansation/or endless bureaucracy, and very uncaring attitude. Then when complaints of thier corruptness and ineffeciny get to high they just have a coup and start the whole mess over with a new sheet. They function perfectly for the goverment users, just not the populace that has to live under it. :)

Yes the above was a joke.

[watchdog]

I would agree with you however that Star Trek is very liberal in its values and outlook, but despite what the Rush Limbaughs of the world may think, that alone does not mean its a communist/socialist oligarchy.

I'm guessing your not a huge fan? :)

In seriousness Trek left leaning tendencies to me atleast seem to suggest a socialist type state for Earth. Not commies by any stretch but something more like what I believe Europe is like. Atleast that's my two cents on the matter.

Besides, I highly doubt that Star Wars fans flock to it for its rosy political view, the government in Wars hardly seems to work at the best of times.

The starwars goverment works. Works at keeping midlevel do nothing goverment officals employed. Think about it, just about every one of the starwars goverments both in film and EU has corruption, disorgansation/or endless bureaucracy, and very uncaring attitude. Then when complaints of thier corruptness and ineffeciny get to high they just have a coup and start the whole mess over with a new sheet. They function perfectly for the goverment users, just not the populace that has to live under it. :)

Yes the above was a joke.

You may be joking, but its a joke that I would have to agree with compleatly ;) Or rather ask yourself the following question;
with all that you have seen and know about both Star Trek and Star Wars, which one would you feel the most comfortable living in as an ordinary person?
I know what my answer would be.

[sonofccn]

You may be joking, but its a joke that I would have to agree with compleatly ;)

It does put the shows into a new light. Suddenly Palp isn't some evil twisted brilliant dictator but some patsy the faceless,nameless "civil servants" duped into becoming thier puppet. Then when he became inconvent they got rid of him. Why do you think thier was this huge freaking hole in the floor in that room? It was a setup from the start. :-)

with all that you have seen and know about both Star Trek and Star Wars, which one would you feel the most comfortable living in as an ordinary person?

Federation. I have inalienable rights, regardless if I'm an alien or not, humaniod or not, or even organic or not(well more or less Data did have to keep fighting for that one). I have total freedom to do whatever I want as long as it doesn't hurt anyone and/or break any law( no selling brainwashing video games to starfleet personel) including starting any enterprise I want. Plus I can travel to just about any federation planet if Earth isn't to my taste. Plus I know the goverment not going change hands every couple years. You can't buy peace of mind like that. ;)

[watchdog]

You may be joking, but its a joke that I would have to agree with compleatly ;)

It does put the shows into a new light. Suddenly Palp isn't some evil twisted brilliant dictator but some patsy the faceless,nameless "civil servants" duped into becoming thier puppet. Then when he became inconvent they got rid of him. Why do you think thier was this huge freaking hole in the floor in that room? It was a setup from the start. :-)

Well, there was a Star Wars tales story where we learn that the true evil behind everything was Jar, Jar. He cusses out Darth Sidious at the end when Jar, Jar was named the supreame chancellor and Sidious tried to manipulate him, Jar, Jar wouldn't let him muscle in on his well laid evil plan:D

[GStone]

If you're an adrenaline junkie, you might go with the Empire.

[Praeothmin]

GStone wrote:

If you're an adrenaline junkie, you might go with the Empire.

Yup, the Klingon Empire.
I'd have all the adrenaline I need, and would still be able to go back to my confy Federation if I needed to... :)