Federation of Socialist Planets?

[CrippledVulture]

A few months back, I had a polite discussion with the folks over at SD.net about an essay Wong posted to the site about the Federation and communism. I accused him of fabricating evidence (or, of not even fabricating the evidence at all, but taking his assumptions as read) and of a rabid desire to simply take Trek down a notch.

As a brief aside, I think this highlights a serious problem with the VS debate in general. Star Trek fans tend to enjoy Star Wars. I would certainly identify myself as a Trekkie before I would a Star Wars fan, but I still love it. It was my first real sci-fi experience. Warsies, however, often seem to hate Star Trek. Many hate it enough to pull out all the stops when it comes to this debate.

Anyway, my argument was that the Federation cannot be called a communist state. On the surface, it does seem that there is some inspiration there, but I think that there are two important points that the SD folks don't accept.

First of all, we never get a solid impression of what life is like for the average Federation citizen. The best we ever get is a brief glimpse in a few episodes. Since the vast majority of characters are military personnel, and a greater majority of the settings are Starfleet vessels or installations, we don't have anything close to a complete picture of what life is like for Federation citizens.

Second, it seems that the widespread use of replicator technology would change the relationship between the populace and the means of production. Yes, I understand that replicators must be created, maintained, and supplied with energy, but they're far more than a convenience appliance. Their food, while not the real thing, is no less nutritious, their industrial value astronomical.

Basically, I find that the Federation is an incomplete picture of a pseudo-utopian future that shares some surface similarities with communism, but doesn't qualify as such because it transcends the most important facet of communist reasoning.

[Trinoya]

The Federation only appears to be a communist state for two reasons:

1: Many people do not understand communism. The simple fact that you can do any job you wish and obtain anything you want (through money even!) means that it is NOT a communist state, and power does not rest with Starfleet OR with the worker class.

More importantly, however, is that the UFP DOES NOT HAVE COMMON OWNERSHIP of anything. Personal farms, organizations, companies, trade, even restaurants are EVERYWHERE and NOT controlled by the state.


2: The Federation is heavily supported by a space based exploration and military force that resembles (read: is) a communist organization, where common ownership is a must (after all, how else would you get the parts you need or holodeck time?!). This is true of most military forces ever to exist, btw.

Starfleet, however, is controlled by the federation, not the other way around.

So then what is the federation? Answer: A federal republic.

[GStone]

There's also the low income housing look of the inside of many homes and aboard a starship, it becomes more spartan, even with higher ranked people.

[CrippledVulture]

If an alien culture observed only the day to day lives of sailors on an aircraft carrier, what would they assume about our civilization?

[watchdog]

I've always hated that communist tag, it was pretty much invented by Mike Wong as another way to attack trek (as if the fascist regime of the empire is better). I don't profess to know much about socialism in general, and I can agree that there are some extreamly liberal ideas floating around in post TNG trek. But the full ideas put forth by Karl Marx are not the driving influence behind star trek, hell I've heard that they weren't really tried in actual communist countries.

I'll bet they flamed you good for daring to question the wisdom of the Federation being a socialist state, or did you get a civil debate on this subject?

[Mike DiCenso]

If an alien culture observed only the day to day lives of sailors on an aircraft carrier, what would they assume about our civilization?

I've used this particular point as well, when discussing life in the Federation outside of Starfleet. The fact is, despite some 700-odd episodes, we've been given suprisingly little information about society on Earth and the Federation in general. Star Wars starts the other way around; we start fairly close to ANH's begining with Luke working and living on his Uncle's moisture farm on Tatooine. We get to see more of the general civilian society. There's never been an ST series where we follow a young civilian on a planet, who then later joins Starfleet for whatever reason. The closest example I can think of is Nog from DS9. But he's not an actual Federation citizen, and so we don't really learn anything about day-to-day Federation society from him.
-Mike

[Jedi Master Spock]

Socialist countries do not necessarily get rid of money or private property, though.

A few key tests indicate to me that the Federation is socialist, but I don't think this is a bad thing.

Do people have access to free housing, food, and medical care?
Yes.

Do "large" capitalists exist in the Federation?
We see none - only small capitalists like Mudd and Quark, who operate as well as own their businesses.

Congratulations - the Federation is socialist. While it does not fit the "state communist" or "anarcho-communist" stereotypes, it can be considered appropriate to call it communistic, and Marx would probably not have been too disappointed.

Now, is this a bad thing in the context of the Federation? No. From the standpoint of the libertarian, while large scale corporate activity seems to have been curtailed and the state controls large amounts of resources, personal liberties are respected, and even private property remains present. The means to acquire arbitrarily large amounts of private property don't seem present within the Federation, but private citizens can hare off into deep space on their own fairly easily if they want to play the wealth accumulation game elsewhere.

I believe I may have noted before that individual members of the Federation seem to have their own laws; the Federation itself does not regulate members except to insure a certain number of rights. Conditions are not the same in all areas of the Federation; we have mostly been concerned with the human part of it.

[SailorSaturn13]

I think this is valid point, However this is NOT socialism, either as the latter would require that all production means (including restaraunts btw) would belong to state. This is clearly not the case (Homefront). Also, we DO know they have money (credits), however they don't seem easily convertible into other currencies for whatever reason.

Also, in "Author, Author" we see that copiright exists. And there are private entrepreneurs.

In "Progidy Daughter", we see Trill involved in mining concern, which is blackmailed by Orion Syndicate.
I'd say it's a semi-socialist on Earth and other major planets and regulated capitalism thoughout Federation.
Huge concerns are banned at least on Earth (and generally, nothing seems to surpass Lando's concern). The rest is heavily regulated, aimed at preventing such structures from emerging - the most likely reason for inconvertability of credits. The addition of replicators also means that massive social services are affordable. Like in "return from stars" by Lem:

- How many eets you spend per month?
-- Sometimes twenty. Someties five. Sometimes none.

Of course, from SW perspective, which is turbocapitalistic this IS socialism, but actually it isn't .

Also note that some colonies can be finansed by center in exchange for future mining rights...
P.S. Quark's bar IS a non-socialist , because Quark employs workers...

[GStone]

I've seen Ezri Dax's mum's business brought in often for capitalism in the Federation with questions of what's going on with people from the other side of the debate, but the company isn't in the Federation. They say so in the ep, so I don't know why they bring it up a lot.

[CrippledVulture]

I'll bet they flamed you good for daring to question the wisdom of the Federation being a socialist state, or did you get a civil debate on this subject?

Those guys, oh we had a nice little chat.

I'm kidding of course. I tried to be civil at first, but Wong's free thought alarm must have gone off or something because he was there in a flash with a string of expletives for me. Since I had no respect for him to begin with, and he accused me of refusing to bring specific facts to the debate because he either ignored or didn't read the post in which I did just that, I had trouble hiding my contempt. Since he was clearly content to just call me a liar and not actually address my arguments, and his cronies are well-trained to attack the interloper without question, I just gave up. I never got the idea that they actually read what I wrote, so I didn't think it was worth my time.

Is there an episode in which Quark's legal status is discussed? It's been a while for me, so I'm not sure. I always just assumed that DS9 was technically not a full Starfleet or Federation installation, since Bajor had not been admitted yet. So Quark operates as a businessperson in a somewhat neutral area, but understands that if he steps on any toes, the Bajorans or Startfleet can send him packing.

The replicator is a TNG-era technology. I don't think it's a coincidence that TOS depicts a more capitalistic Federation. Just off the top of my head, in the episode with the silicon-based creature in the mine, Kirk congratulates the mine's operator (and implied owner or investor) on all the money he stands to make working in harmony with the creatures. I find it folly to underestimate the social impact of replicators. Not only on a theoretical level, but because we actually see a dramatic shift in the social order during the period in which they are developed.

[Jedi Master Spock]

I think this is valid point, However this is NOT socialism, either as the latter would require that all production means (including restaraunts btw) would belong to state.

The label of "socialism" or "communism" does not require that everything belongs to the state. Not at all; Norway, for example, is widely considered to be a socialist state, but is home to multinational corporations and happens to be very prosperous.

"Communism," in fact, includes such flavors as anarcho-communism, in which there is no "state" per se. "Common" ownership of means of production is the flavor of the day, not "state" ownership.

It's a very broad label, and it's quite possible to apply it in a scenario where private enterprise is allowed. In the Federation, small businesses that are operated by their owners seem allowed, but in communist China, even multinational corporations are allowed to function in a limited sense.

This is clearly not the case (Homefront). Also, we DO know they have money (credits), however they don't seem easily convertible into other currencies for whatever reason.

Currency is again not necessarily absent in communist societies. (See the USSR, Cuba, China, etc.) In fact, in actual states identified as communist, it's more usual to have a currency than not.

[CrippledVulture]

I think it may be useful to clarify some things. How are we defining Communist and Socialist? Does the Federation fit the bill if they abide by the philosophy of Marx and Engles? Or rather if they resemble real Communist states? Is it both? Either?

I don't really know. In the context of my argument with Mr. Wong, I took issue with his claims that the Federation has abolished property rights, controls all access to transportation and communication, has no currency, has outlawed free enterprise, and that replicators (which, at the point of the discussion, I had actually underestimated) would have little social impact. Citing as evidence his complete lack of evidence to cite.

In the SD archives, I found an instance where someone else took issue with the communism essay, before I did. After flaming this individual, they worked themselves up into such a Trek-bashing frenzy that they concluded the Federation must be brainwashing its citizens somehow.

At the heart of Marx's philosophy is the relationship between people and production. When the world is working, people produce things for themselves (or at least things that have a personal value or enrich them somehow), and as they do so, their needs and wants evolve and change. His problem with capitalism is that the laborer produces what he is told to produce, not what he wants to. He is not fulfilling his needs in the process and is thus stifled.

My argument is that the Federation has transcended (or is at least attempting to depict a society that has transcended) not only the conflict that has arisen from the separation of the worker and the means of production, but the very thinking that underlies this process. People aren't concerned with production at all. I think that this is the thinking behind Starfleet. The level of technology that the Federation has achieved has created a system that fulfills the needs of its citizens in the Marxist sense. This is why the Federation looks outward. Why exploration is important. Their needs have evolved past Marx's thinking.

That's why I don't think the Federation qualifies.

[Jedi Master Spock]

I think it may be useful to clarify some things. How are we defining Communist and Socialist? Does the Federation fit the bill if they abide by the philosophy of Marx and Engles? Or rather if they resemble real Communist states? Is it both? Either?

The main problem is that if we're just asking "Is the Federation communist?" we have to include all of the above - and then some.

I don't really know. In the context of my argument with Mr. Wong, I took issue with his claims that the Federation has abolished property rights,

Which they clearly haven't. From "personal effects" to the Picard estate to the Sisko restaurant, people still own things.

controls all access to transportation

Which they clearly don't. Private craft exist in every era of Trek.

In fact, given the technology available to civilians, it does not seem so hard for hobbyists to build a shuttle in their basement.

and communication,

Now this you can try to make a case for - but while the Federation clearly operates a network of subspace relays, subspace communications can be carried out by private individuals using replicable devices. A handheld comm can have a range of multiple light years.

There's nothing that suggests censorship, and the simple fact is that anyone with a little free time and a replicator can start placing out-system calls without recourse to a subspace relay.

Re: Money, things are hit or miss. The canon is contradictory there.

has outlawed free enterprise,

Clearly not, as the existence of numerous small commercial enterprises indicates. Presumably there's a level at which enterprise is regulated - and I would suggest it is at the level of limited liability for corporations and the legal rights that we now treat them as having - but enterprise is clearly allowed.

Even idealized. Why else name the flagship Enterprise?

and that replicators (which, at the point of the discussion, I had actually underestimated) would have little social impact. Citing as evidence his complete lack of evidence to cite.

In the SD archives, I found an instance where someone else took issue with the communism essay, before I did. After flaming this individual, they worked themselves up into such a Trek-bashing frenzy that they concluded the Federation must be brainwashing its citizens somehow.

At the heart of Marx's philosophy is the relationship between people and production. When the world is working, people produce things for themselves (or at least things that have a personal value or enrich them somehow), and as they do so, their needs and wants evolve and change. His problem with capitalism is that the laborer produces what he is told to produce, not what he wants to. He is not fulfilling his needs in the process and is thus stifled.

My argument is that the Federation has transcended (or is at least attempting to depict a society that has transcended) not only the conflict that has arisen from the separation of the worker and the means of production, but the very thinking that underlies this process. People aren't concerned with production at all. I think that this is the thinking behind Starfleet. The level of technology that the Federation has achieved has created a system that fulfills the needs of its citizens in the Marxist sense. This is why the Federation looks outward. Why exploration is important. Their needs have evolved past Marx's thinking.

That's why I don't think the Federation qualifies.

It's a very interesting point, and I think one which Roddenberry might agree with. A primary key to Marx's thinking is that the worker's choice is work or starve is no choice at all; when this choice is no longer forced, many of his arguments simply no longer apply.

The utopian nature of this vision of the Federation is one of Star Trek's main assets. While some, such as Scott Adams, feel it is completely implausible that a society could function this way, it's hard to dispute the Federation seems like paradise. (Unless we're talking about the occasional war, act of Q, alien plague, or other [un]natural disaster.)

[Mr. Oragahn]

If an alien culture observed only the day to day lives of sailors on an aircraft carrier, what would they assume about our civilization?

I've used this particular point as well, when discussing life in the Federation outside of Starfleet. The fact is, despite some 700-odd episodes, we've been given suprisingly little information about society on Earth and the Federation in general. Star Wars starts the other way around; we start fairly close to ANH's begining with Luke working and living on his Uncle's moisture farm on Tatooine. We get to see more of the general civilian society. There's never been an ST series where we follow a young civilian on a planet, who then later joins Starfleet for whatever reason. The closest example I can think of is Nog from DS9. But he's not an actual Federation citizen, and so we don't really learn anything about day-to-day Federation society from him.
-Mike

Star Trek: Starfleet Academy.

Sounds nice, eh? Follow various groups of postulants, applying in different domains, military, physics, biology and medecine, history, economics and politics, xenoarcheology, and see them get to travel to certain key planets as part of their studies.

[Praeothmin]

While some, such as Scott Adams, feel it is completely implausible that a society could function this way

I started reading his thread, and was flabberghasted by his "Medical Technology" article. He thinks "dermal regenerators", in his own words, :
"the doctors have handheld devices that instantly close any openings in the skin. Imagine that sort of device in the hands of your unscrupulous friends. They would sneak up behind you and seal your ass shut as a practical joke."

It shows how limited his knowledge is, or how un-serious his article is.
Or he would have known that the dermal regenerator does just that: it allows wounds to knit themselves by accelerating the healing process. It couldn't be used to close someones mouth permanently, for example.