Regarding EU:NJO

[Jedi Master Spock]

In general, larger bits tend to stay together. 20 km is small for a moon; it's very big for an impactor (the K-T impact is generally thought to have been a ~10 km asteroid).

In general, almost any rock of substantial size is going to make it all the way to the ground, and rocks of around the 100 ton range (we're talking chunks around the size of a schoolbus here) will retain a very significant fraction of their original velocity.

[Mr. Oragahn]

What i find the strangest in that incident is that the moon doesn't seem to burn up in the atmosphere. I mean it's said to circling the planet, slowing coming down and picking up speed as it does.

Why wouldn't a relatively small moon like that shatter and burn up once it hits the atmosphere? And if there was something there to actually beat it into smaller pieces, how come those pieces wouldn't burn up even more easily?

It's puzzling. It was making many circles around the planet before it impact. It was quite a steady approach, matched by the angular speed regarding the planet.
So, I'd think there should be a lot of friction, but it seems that sizable chunks of rock like this retain most of their initial volume as a whole when entering the atmosphere at even sharper angles.

I never noticed the size of that asteroid, and it always seemed to me that the crushing moon was largely bigger than that.

It would say a lot about how no space force in that sector could come fast enough within less than an hour to minimize the level of damage by blasting it to bits.

They both lacked ships and firepower. Was Sernpidal such a primitive world that no one could spot the falling course of that moon?
As far as I can remember, its inhabitants seemed to attribute this to some religious figure, right?

I mean, come on, even in Battlestar Galactica's universe, the sensors would have picked the abnormal course of the body and used one of the colonial battlestars to dug holes with some multiples 50 MT warheads.

What was that world? Why was it so important that it warranted the use of an artificial tractor beam device to have a moon crash on it? Was it just because it was one of the closest planets to Vector Prime and the Yuuzhan Vong needed to settle an outpost there?

[Mike DiCenso]

Mr. Oragahn wrote:

I never noticed the size of that asteroid, and it always seemed to me that the crushing moon was largely bigger than that.

It would say a lot about how no space force in that sector could come fast enough within less than an hour to minimize the level of damage by blasting it to bits.

It is pretty clearly stated in the quotes which of the two moons (Dobido the smallest), and what it's characteristics are. We also have a pretty straight-forward description of what kind of ship (Star Destroyer) has the firepower to destroy the 20 km moon, and what the effects of that attempt are (shatter the moon wtih debris that can still cause significant, now wide-spread, damage to Sernpidal's surface).

I'am assuming that by "Star Destroyer" Han is not refering to the big SSDs, but rather to the size range and class of SD like the so-called Acclamators and Imperials. If we toss this into the SDN Asteroid Calculator and assume a more-or-less spherical shape for Dobido (it's actually protrayed as roughly spherical in the comics), we get 1.4 GT and 37.8 GT respectively for hard granite and solid nickel-iron compositions. Fragmenting the entire asteroid moon's volume down to 10 meters chunks on the other hand nets you about 8 GT total energy. Although impressive, this is a far cry from the teratons and petatons of firepower of AoTC ICS. This level of firepower also fits in well with the firepower demonstrated by the Type-II ISD in TESB, and the kind of power output for a relatively efficent large-scale nuclear fusion-type reactor.
-Mike


P.S. Here's the link to the Wookiepedia image showing Dobido crashing into Sernpidal:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Image:Do ... npidal.jpg

[Mr. Oragahn]

It is pretty clearly stated in the quotes which of the two moons (Dobido the smallest), and what it's characteristics are. We also have a pretty straight-forward description of what kind of ship (Star Destroyer) has the firepower to destroy the 20 km moon, and what the effects of that attempt are (shatter the moon wtih debris that can still cause significant, now wide-spread, damage to Sernpidal's surface).

I know, I've read the quotes on page 1. Still, I never paid that much attention to the size of the moon back when VP came out, and as such I assumed it was something like our moon being puled towards Earth. It made the thing look more impressive.

[Mike DiCenso]

Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on your point of view), Salvatore chose to go with the smaller of the two moons. Had he gone with the other one, it would have been a moon of about the size of our real-life Luna. The only real question I have is how long an SD would have been expected to take in blasting apart Dobido. Would it take a second or less, or would it take far longer? The way Han is talking, it would probably take some time for an SD to break Dobido down, otherwise the larger pieces of debris could be tracked down at a leisurely pace, and the rest allowed to burn up in Senpidal's atmosphere.
-Mike

[SailorSaturn13]

page numbers fore previous citations are '
61(ch 4)
139, 144, 146 (Ch 10)
158-162 (Ch 11, "Boom")
and 164 for Sernpidal. Again- heavest-populated planet, and has no strong weapons at all!

On goes.
p 166

Yo'gand utilized ... strong dovin basal, which ... focused one beam to latch on to the planet's core, the other to grab at the passing Moon

... these infidels[Sernpidal citizens] ... without countering powers of other dovin basals, would have no way to determine the source of the impending disaster - and they would not have the firepower to defeat it

Fisrst thing: dovin basals obey Newton's law
Second: Sernpidal does NOT have firepower even cvlose to an ISD. And this for most populated planet in sector! Given this, 25000 or even 10000 ISDs doesn't seem too little...

[Mr. Oragahn]

It could be a low tech planet full of mystical hippies stuck in the corner of the galaxy, but unfortunate enough to be on the path on the Yuuzhan Vong.

Even if the era was different, look at Naboo. Three or four wrings of fighters, at best, and a prototype bomber by certain sources.
Woohoo.

[Mike DiCenso]

SailorSaturn13
page numbers fore previous citations are '
61(ch 4)
139, 144, 146 (Ch 10)
158-162 (Ch 11, "Boom")
and 164 for Sernpidal. Again- heavest-populated planet, and has no strong weapons at all!

Thanks for the page number citations, SS13! :-)
-Mike

[SailorSaturn13]

In general, larger bits tend to stay together. 20 km is small for a moon; it's very big for an impactor (the K-T impact is generally thought to have been a ~10 km asteroid).

In general, almost any rock of substantial size is going to make it all the way to the ground, and rocks of around the 100 ton range (we're talking chunks around the size of a schoolbus here) will retain a very significant fraction of their original velocity.

Important, however is also the velocity. The hypothetical dino-killer was moving at 70 km/s, having 100 times greater energy per kg than moon brought from orbit.


Now, chap 13:

piecemeal squadron Kyp Durron has titled Dozen-and -two-Avengers, a name the Jedi expected would be often repeated in Galaxy before much longer... through the extensive training ... they had learned to fly together, complementing each other movements, aanticipating rather than reaction, thay wouldn't match up to more notably fighter squadrons, Kyp knew, like Rogue squadron, but they were improving daily...Perhaps one day soon, the Dozen-and-two would be spoken in the same b reathlessly manner as Rogue Squadron

If the three Solos joined, ... the squadron would soon be thought of in elite terms, and their missions would become more important mopre dangerous and more profitable in terms of the gain to the cause of law and Republic.The Dozen-and-five - dozen regulars and five jedi - could well become the greates squadron in the galaxy

(p 182, 183)

Exactly how little forces does New Republic have if such fighter squadron are important??? Note that Kyp's squadron does NOT have the knowledge for covert ops. They catch smugglers and hope to become famous! And why are they seeminly the only ones to do so in sector? All troops in center? But if those outskirts are so unimportant, how does smuggler-catching gets to be as popular as Rogues??

Clearly New republic doesn't have very much squadrons - a thousand or two at best. Any more and each one bocomes totally unsignificant. And they don't have many ISDs to spare, either.

A general help for someone to find out if the [Belkadan] station need any help

(p 186)
Again, no friendly squadrons in entire sector.

[SailorSaturn13]

p 194

- They can take a beating - Miko remarked.
- But they cannot hand one out - Kyp remarked, seeing several projectiles slam against B-Wing shields, only to be deflected,
- All right... - he called - our shields will beat them..

Clearly, any shields starfighters have cannot withstand many hits of another regular fighter, as Kyp thought such impact power very small.

Another hint that shields aren't that great in SW, especially given what Tie fightes accomplished in TESB and ANH.

same page:

No shield - Miko cried... - Gravity well - he explained

Graviton emitters can nullify SW shields.

[SailorSaturn13]

Ch 15, p 232.

The other [moon] was much smaller, perhaps twenty kilometers or so in diameter

Dobido. Mass: 10^13 ton if rock, 3*10^13 if iron. Most moons are rocky objects, iron ones are rare.

p 234

ten trillion tons of danger

rock then.

8 GT fragmenting into 10 m pieces, 80 GT fragmenting into 1 m pieces, 30 TT to vapourize.

"It'd Take a Star Destoryer to blast that Moon and even then, the pieces would devastate Sernpidal"

Never seem to have a Death Star lying around when you need one

An ISD can Fragment the moon, but cannot vapourise it - not even close...Anything smaller - like ranger gunships - can't even fragment it...

- Seven Hours? - Han echoed, stunned...
- Ourday just got better - Han said looking back to Anakin. - Sernpidal has seven hours.
Anakin's jaw dropped

Obviously, they expected more than that, something like a day. Even if we take 7 hours - that's over 21000 seconds to supply 30 TT needed fo vaporisation. So an ISD cannot have more than 1.4 GT/s. Given that they expected a day and that total vapourisation isn't needed, we are in a range below 100 MT/s. In fact, a 10 MT/s ISD would, over 4 Hours, supply 140 GT - enough to frnagmrnt it into pieces ranging 10-50 cm, which woulod burn off harmlessly. At 100 MT/s and 5 hrs that would be 1.8 GT - enough for pieces under 5 cm and in 24 hours (likely expectation before exact data) - under 1 cm. Therefore we have:
- Absolute firepower limit of 1.4 GT/s or more exact, under 1 GT/s
- sane power limit at 100 MT/s - enough to make the moon hamless under nearly all assumptions.
- and an estimation of 10-50 MT/s - blasts moon uneder a minute.

Needless to say, a TT barrage would solve all problems completely, but... It cannot happen , right. Interesting also that Han thinks a DS is needed for such a thing - not an SSD superlaser...

BTW: assuming nickel-iron doesn't help. It'd take 60 GT to vapourize a 20 km iron moon - doubling the figures at best - but it would take just 20 TT to vapourise a 10^13 ton nickel-iron moon, nearly halving the maximal figures, though iut would take 12 GT to blast it now...

Given this and that everything points at rock, the former figure is valid.

Also interesting: th impact of Dobido would be near 10^16 kg * (8000 m/s)^2 /2 = 3*10^23 J - 100 TT. Given that this was considered "Destruction of Sernpidal", then "enough power to destroy a planet" and 10^26 WT of Death Star are quite well with each other...

[l33telboi]

Since I'm currently reading through the NJO series, I thought I might as well keep a look-out for anything that could be quantifiable or anything that could be considered new information on the SWverse.

So, from time to time I'll post whatever new info I've found here in this thread. Some of the info I'll simply write down because it might be useful in the future, some info might only be relevant in-verse and not in vs. debating and so on and so forth.

There are of course things that I'm bound to miss, so if Saturn will be reading the series as well, then he might catch whatever I miss.

Ok. So I'm currently reading the second book in the series, called Dark Tide - Onslaught. I've yet to read the whole novel, so I'm not going to make a huge post just yet, simply writing down some of the stuff that I feel might be relevant in the future. When I'm done reading the novel, I might reorganize stuff a little to make it easier to read.

A human senator Leia failed to recognize rose to speak. “Forgive me, but it is a well-known and long-established fact that a hyperspace disturbance on the edge of the galaxy makes travel into or out of the galaxy impossible. This supposed invasion could not have taken place.”

This is nothing more then a quote on the supposed hyperspace disturbance that disallows travel between galaxies. Might be important, but most likely it's just trivial info only a nerd like me considers interesting.

Fey’lya smiled, flashing sharp teeth. “Coralskippers?”
Leia closed her eyes and sighed. “These aliens appear to rely on genetically engineered biomechanical creatures. Their fighter craft are, well, grown out of something called yorik coral.”

Coralskippers are the fighters the Vong use. And this is just some general info on them.

The little gold-and-white droid tootled pleasantly, and the simulator cockpit came alive with lights and data scrolling on the primary screen. Despite the years of refits the little droid had undergone in Gavin’s service—including requisite memory wipes and programming upgrades—it always greeted him with a brief summary of the weather on Tatooine and Coruscant. Gavin appreciated that little bit of pleasantry, which is why he’d not traded the droid in for a newer model—though the Delta upgrade had been most welcome for speeding up navigational computations.

Another not-quite-useful quote. This one simply telling us that the astromech droids fighters have can be upgraded.

Luke laughed. “Okay, so yours is the second most dangerous mission. Out on the Rim there’s a system designated MZX33291 by Imperial surveyors. It has a pulsar in the area that disrupts communications from the only habitable world in the system. The Empire had made the planet off-limits to everyone for reasons that are unclear. There is some evidence that they had xenoarchaeological teams out there, but no trace of what they might have discovered.”

A weakness in communications equipment. A trivial one, but still.

As his X-wing cleared the dorsal launch bay on the Bothan Assault Cruiser Ralroost, Gavin Darklighter tugged back on the stick and rolled to starboard to watch the rest of the squadron emerge. The Bothan Assault Cruiser was one of the latest additions to the New Republic fleet. While slightly smaller than a Victory-class Star Destroyer, and possessed of leaner and less angular lines, the Ralroost boasted 20 percent more firepower than a Vic and almost half again as much in terms of shielding and armor. The ship had been designed to take a severe pounding and still hammer an enemy.

A new capital-ship that I'm guessing we'll be hearing a lot more about in upcoming chapters. It's also nice to see a direct comparison with this ship and a Victory-class.

There was also another scene that i only now realize might've been quite important. I didn't grab any quotes but might go back and do so later. In any case, it involves pirates hiding in an asteroid field. It shows nothing more then that the sensors of even the ship mentioned above aren't able to detect even capital-ships in asteroid fields if they hide themselves, as there was a Nebulon-B frigate in said asteroid field.

[CrippledVulture]

Their fighter craft are, well, grown out of something called yorik coral.

Are the biological ships awesome like they are in almost every science fiction story that has living ships?

I'd rather be protected by metal myself.

[l33telboi]

Are the biological ships awesome like they are in almost every science fiction story that has living ships?

I'm actually not quite sure. Thing is that these ships are able to beat normal SW fighters. However, they also have a lot of strange gizmos that help them a lot when they do this. They have these thingies that can project narrow gravity-fields at fighters, stripping away the shields almost instantly. And they seem to be able to shield themselves against sensors. So i'm not quite sure if they're better, in a brute force way, then the normal SW ships.

In fact, there was something in the beginning of Vector Prime, suggesting that they are quite weak on the offensive and that the shield stripping devices are what really give them the edge.

[Praeothmin]

It's been some time since I last read Vector Prime (had to, it was written by R.A. Salvatore, my fav. author), but I seem to remember that the Coral Skippers weren't that vulnerable to the Fighter's laser cannon fire.

And don't forget the Yammock sauce... I mean, their crab-like armor that do not get cut instantly by Lightsabre blades.

It seems their whole technology is energy resistant to some extent.