The Lightspeed Turbolaser Argument (aka LOL)

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Who is like God arbour
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Post by Who is like God arbour » Mon Sep 10, 2007 4:04 pm

Mr. Oragahn wrote:It could be gluons to some extent, but parsimony would tell us that for any self respected EUphile, if a weapon says it's a turbolaser, chances are that we're dealing with photons.
That's a good argument.
Now I ask me, why I haven't seen it before. Somehow I feel stupid now.
In that context, we wouldn't only deal with a photon beam but even with a laser beam.

Because, you are right, it wouldn't make much sense to call the turbolaser so if they aren't based on lasers but other luxons - unless they call it traditionall a laser because they do with whatever luxons they are using the same what is done with photons for a laser: they are brought in a coherent state.
Sometimes I hate it to be the advocatus diaboli.
But why should someone, who has a degree in Astrophysics, use the term energy beam while never even mention photons or lasers, although the term laser would be more correct and is already common knowledge if he is really thinking of a laser?
I think it makes more sense to assume, that he knows what a laser is and hasn't thought at a laser while writting these lines, but has imagined some kind of other luxons of which that energy beams may consist.

But I don't think that we will agree on that point. You seem to be convinced that he has thought at a laser.
Without other arguments, I'm still thinking that he is educated enough to know that a laser wouldn't behave the way as shown in the movies and that he hasn't really thought at a laser while writing these lines but some other kind of energy beam that propagates with c, therefore is consisting of other luxons than photons, maybe a still unknown kind of luxon.

Your version would make him either uneducated or a fraud, who knows it better but is deliberately lying or misleading to deceive more uneducated people.

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Post by Kane Starkiller » Mon Sep 10, 2007 7:06 pm

ROTS novelization wrote:Sophisticated sensor algorithms compressed the combat that sprawled throughout the galactic capital's orbit to a view the naked eye could enjoy: cruisers hundreds of kilometers apart, exchanging fire at near lightspeed, appeared to be practically hull-to-hull, joined by pulsing cables of flame.
Well would you look at that. Canon novelization states that ships at one point exchange fire at near lightspeed. Saxton conspiracy must go deeper then we thought eh?

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Post by Praeothmin » Tue Sep 11, 2007 12:34 am

Mr. Oraghan wrote:
4. EM waves travel at c. Nothing else that we know of travels at such speeds. It only leaves light, physics wise (not visible light only).
Correct, but the last time I checked, radio-waves were also EM radiation and invisible.
So maybe Turbolasers are actually big antennas shooting immensily powerful radio waves... :)

Kane Starkiller wrote:
Well would you look at that. Canon novelization states that ships at one point exchange fire at near lightspeed.
And would you look at that: Higher cannon movies show that they're not... :)

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Post by Mr. Oragahn » Tue Sep 11, 2007 1:55 am

Kane Starkiller wrote:
ROTS novelization wrote:Sophisticated sensor algorithms compressed the combat that sprawled throughout the galactic capital's orbit to a view the naked eye could enjoy: cruisers hundreds of kilometers apart, exchanging fire at near lightspeed, appeared to be practically hull-to-hull, joined by pulsing cables of flame.
Well would you look at that. Canon novelization states that ships at one point exchange fire at near lightspeed. Saxton conspiracy must go deeper then we thought eh?
Slightly lower than lightspeed, Kane.
That's a whole different affair on its own, between the movie facts and Saxton's claims of c capable weapons.

Having a weapon able to fire near c, especially in space, is a rather bizarre claim. Either it's a derivation of Saxton's idea, an awkward combination of "it moves at c, but we make it spin so in the end, it won't reach its target at c".

Or it's a beam of particles which don't usually move at c... but are accelerated to near c.

That said, why do you talk about conspiracy?

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Post by Mr. Oragahn » Tue Sep 11, 2007 2:01 am

Praeothmin wrote:Mr. Oraghan wrote:
4. EM waves travel at c. Nothing else that we know of travels at such speeds. It only leaves light, physics wise (not visible light only).
Correct, but the last time I checked, radio-waves were also EM radiation and invisible.
So maybe Turbolasers are actually big antennas shooting immensily powerful radio waves... :)
They're also considered light, according to physics. But not the light that's stuck between two wavelenghts I can't remember.*
It's the other all encompassing light. Like the Force.

But I like your theory. They could be shooting powered singles.

Try to withstand 200 gigatons of The Carpenters you wretched scum!

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Post by SailorSaturn13 » Sat Sep 15, 2007 12:42 am

Kane Starkiller wrote:
ROTS novelization wrote:Sophisticated sensor algorithms compressed the combat that sprawled throughout the galactic capital's orbit to a view the naked eye could enjoy: cruisers hundreds of kilometers apart, exchanging fire at near lightspeed, appeared to be practically hull-to-hull, joined by pulsing cables of flame.
Well would you look at that. Canon novelization states that ships at one point exchange fire at near lightspeed. Saxton conspiracy must go deeper then we thought eh?
e

NEAR lightspeed and AT lightspeed are not similar. In fact, thos quote CONTRADICTS the ICS. Particles fired at c are massless, and those under c do have mass. They cannot mix.

That we see the scane film and firing velocities are way below c is a different question,

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l33telboi
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Post by l33telboi » Sat Sep 15, 2007 7:49 am

Wait, the guy who wrote ROTS, who was that? It wouldn't happen to be that Stackpole fellow, would it?

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Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sat Sep 15, 2007 2:41 pm

Nope, it's Stover, who's already worked on SW books.

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Post by l33telboi » Sat Sep 15, 2007 3:18 pm

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Nope, it's Stover, who's already worked on SW books.
Nevermind then. Stackpole, in his NJO books, was just quite fond of writing of everything going at near lightspeed.

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Post by Praeothmin » Sun Sep 16, 2007 3:18 pm

This whole thread made me remember that I've seen arguments in the past from Pro-Wars debaters saying that their weapons would not be adapted to by the Borg because they had no frequency (no matter the fact that if energy travels to and from a point, it does so in "rays", i.e. waves, i.e. frequency).

But if the ICS is right about the Turbolasers, then I'm afraid that their little "no frequency" fantasy has come to an end.

You see, if Turbolasers are indeed composed of a "ray", it means it travels as any electromagnetic wave (laser beams, radio waves, gamma rays).
Waves mean sines, sines mean top and bottom wavefronts.
Wavefronts means "x" number of waves in a quantifiable amount of time.
Frequency is "x" number of waves divided by the time, in seconds.

Thus, Turbolasers are frequency-based weapons.
If the ICS is right... :)

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Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sun Sep 16, 2007 3:29 pm

Praeothmin wrote:This whole thread made me remember that I've seen arguments in the past from Pro-Wars debaters saying that their weapons would not be adapted to by the Borg because they had no frequency (no matter the fact that if energy travels to and from a point, it does so in "rays", i.e. waves, i.e. frequency).

But if the ICS is right about the Turbolasers, then I'm afraid that their little "no frequency" fantasy has come to an end.

You see, if Turbolasers are indeed composed of a "ray", it means it travels as any electromagnetic wave (laser beams, radio waves, gamma rays).
Waves mean sines, sines mean top and bottom wavefronts.
Wavefronts means "x" number of waves in a quantifiable amount of time.
Frequency is "x" number of waves divided by the time, in seconds.

Thus, Turbolasers are frequency-based weapons.
If the ICS is right... :)
Even if it is not right, plasma has a frequency as well.

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Post by Nonamer » Sun Sep 16, 2007 7:42 pm

Mr. Oragahn wrote: Even if it is not right, plasma has a frequency as well.
I don't know about that. Plasma's are ionized gases, and while they will have multiple EM emissions on certain specific frequencies (the emission lines), it shouldn't have a frequency in of itself.

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Post by Who is like God arbour » Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:02 am

Nonamer wrote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote: Even if it is not right, plasma has a frequency as well.
I don't know about that. Plasma's are ionized gases, and while they will have multiple EM emissions on certain specific frequencies (the emission lines), it shouldn't have a frequency in of itself.
If they are shooting plasma, the are shooting matter and not elementary particles like photons, that they could call energy. That plasma can contain energy. But as long as the plasma as matter is stopped at the shields, the in the plasma contained energy wouldn't reach the ship. To stop that plasma, they would need these so called "particle shields", while they would need the so called "ray shields" for weapons that are directly firing elementary particles like photons.

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Post by Mr. Oragahn » Mon Sep 17, 2007 11:00 am

Who is like God arbour wrote:
Nonamer wrote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote: Even if it is not right, plasma has a frequency as well.
I don't know about that. Plasma's are ionized gases, and while they will have multiple EM emissions on certain specific frequencies (the emission lines), it shouldn't have a frequency in of itself.
If they are shooting plasma, the are shooting matter and not elementary particles like photons, that they could call energy. That plasma can contain energy. But as long as the plasma as matter is stopped at the shields, the in the plasma contained energy wouldn't reach the ship. To stop that plasma, they would need these so called "particle shields", while they would need the so called "ray shields" for weapons that are directly firing elementary particles like photons.
Though heat is the change of kinetic energy at the microscopic level, I think the way plasma is meant to deal damage is by thermal radiation.

At this point, the ambiuigity lies in radiation (negligible mass particles) vs. more or less solid impact, where KE matters at the macroscopic level.

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