Split: Phasers, blasters, and tibanna gas, oh my!

[Who is like God arbour]

IP has posted enough to prove he's 'died in the wool' of the overriding view of the debate. My guess is that it might have been fear.

And no, that isn't a typo.

Excuse me, I don't understand your last post. Please elaborate it?

It really is nothing more than a handful of obsessive, uneducated crackpots. It's pretty sad, really. And for all their handwaving and accusations, none of them can explain why all of the scientists, engineers, and military veterans in this debate happen to be on my side. I guess relevant education and experience must be the "bias" they're referring to.

But you don't have lawyers who understand scientific expertises and can "debate and analyse scientific evidence" on your side.

That is one problem of them.
They think, they can solve all proplems with science.
But they oversee, that for many events in science fiction, there is no scientifical solution.
In Star Trek and in Star Wars were shown many events, for which science has no explanation, especially in the fairy tale Star Wars. For example the behavior of the main weapon beams from the death star. As far as I know, there is no scientifical explanation, why these beams stop at a point in front of the dish and change their course.






Another problem is, that they think, an engineer have to be more qualified to analyze science fiction than another person. I think, that's wrong.
Every person can see science fiction and see, what is done.



For example: Weapons
There could only be two relevant questions:
1.) What effect a weapon has on its target as a result?
2.) What is the operating mode of this weapon?

The first question can answer everyone, who has seen it: Is the target destroyed or not or how damaged is the target?

To answer the second question, it could be benefiting to be an engineer. But only if there is enough information about the operating mode of the weapon.

As far as I know, there is no established theorie about turbo lasers or phasers. The seen effects of both weapons are not explainable with the present understanding of science. Therefore the operating mode is unkown. It is unknown, how such weapons excite their beams and what effects the beams have on their target.

But then, it makes no sense to speculate about the energy, a weapon would need for a certain seen effect, for example to "vaporize" an asteroid. If it is unkown, what exactly happened with said asteroid, it is not possible, to estimate the necessary energy for it. The weapon could have an operating mode, which is far above the present scientifical understanding. And that there is no explanation for the seen behaviour of the weapon, is a strong indication, that this weapon don't have an explainable operating mode.

But then, an engineer is not better than every other person to analyze the only analysable subject: What effect a weapon has on its target as a result?



No scientist could exactly explain, how the warp drive, the hyper drive, the impuls drive, the phasers, the turbo lasers, the blasters, the light saber, the transporter or another of such concepts are working. They can do only the same, every other person can do too. Look at the shown effects and compare them with each other.

[Who is like God arbour]

IP has posted enough to prove he's 'died in the wool' of the overriding view of the debate. My guess is that it might have been fear.

And no, that isn't a typo.

Excuse me, I don't understand your last post. Please elaborate it?

He's posted enough over there that they know how he thinks. And what they know makes him 'SDN approved(TM)', so he'd be able to say basically the same thing you said and not get banned because, while he has been approved, you haven't been SDN approved(TM).

Thank you. That was my mistake. I didn't know, that you meant with IP Illuminatus Primus. I have wondered, what the Internet protocol address has to do with that. But I should have catched, what you have meant.
A mental blackout - excuse me.

It really is nothing more than a handful of obsessive, uneducated crackpots. It's pretty sad, really. And for all their handwaving and accusations, none of them can explain why all of the scientists, engineers, and military veterans in this debate happen to be on my side. I guess relevant education and experience must be the "bias" they're referring to.

But you don't have lawyers who understand scientific expertises and can "debate and analyse scientific evidence" on your side.

And as someone that is a scientist, as well as militarily tactically trained (though I've never been in the military and I'm not talking about something I just read from a book), I've been both college and real world educated. The problem in Wong's view is that I am not SDN approved(TM). His mind puts me in the 'dumbass section'. But, it's not too bad. You'd be SDN approved(TM), even if you were in junior high school and partially retarded, as long as you said their side was right. You could still be this person and wank out Saxton's wankings.

It won't ever matter what your background is, as long as you say something along the lines of 'Star Wars would beat the Federation, like hitting a dead fly with a fly swatter- it's just that easy' or something like that.

I have never known the very few and far between posts that wank Saxton's level of wanking to ever get deridded for being 'out there' or the posters of such things to back up their claims.

I have noticed.
There were statements, Einstein would rotate in its tomb, if he would hear them. These were obviously wrong. But nobody from SDN has bothered to correct such statements. After all, they came from another Star Wars "Talifan".

That was one of the main reasons, why I have lost the notion to defend my opinion. It was noticeable, that nobody was interested in a productive debate and it was totally irrelevant, what I have said.

As far as I know, there is no established theorie about turbo lasers or phasers.

In the canon, the most we have is the ep 3 novel saying a weird spelling of what would be necessary, if you had a plasma weapon. Phasers seem to be a direct heating weapon with a weird mechanism.

The turbo lasers don't act, how they would, if they would be a plasma weapon. And I think, a plasma weapon would be a more stupid and inefficient weapon in science fiction.

Imagine, what would happen with the temperatur and air humidity in the small shuttle, when Dr. Crusher has fired and disintegrated Dr. Jo'Bril, if he was really vaporized due to heating.



Or as Sisko has disintegrated a whole rock face.



No, I don't see, that Phasers seem to be a direct heating weapon. The operating mode is unknown. But it can't be, that a phaser vaporize its target. Therfore, it is impossible, to determine the used energy for such an effect.

But nevertheless, the effect itself is shown and compareable to other shown effects. And I have seen no hand weapon in Star Wars, that cause such destruction. For this observation, I don't have to be an engineer and I don't see, how it would help me, if I would be one. No engineer could explain, how the operating mode of a phaser is.

[Mike DiCenso]

Unfortunately, we have plenty of examples where phasers (both hand and ship mounted) have caused DET-like effects as pointed out in a thread from the Trek/Wars forum. Here's a sample:



Joined: 18 Aug 2006
Posts: 316

Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 11:54 pm

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It's "Hide and Q" [TNG1] where Riker tests a small phaser by shooting at a rock and blowing it up:

http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWground-newphas1.html

We have other examples of vaporization and burning with phasers:


http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWground-newphas2.html


An example of phaser burns on a human:

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Image:Phaser_damage.jpg


...And the infamous Remmick's head going *SPLAT!* scene:

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Image:Remmick_death.jpg

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Image:R ... ermath.jpg

Note the steam as his head explodes, and smoke from the ruined corpse.


The inital stage of a phaser weapon beam's explosion from "The Man Trap" [TOS1]:

http://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/display ... 22&pos=216

So plenty of examples available here.
-Mike


So what are phasers exactly?
-Mike

[GStone]

The turbo lasers don't act, how they would, if they would be a plasma weapon. And I think, a plasma weapon would be a more stupid and inefficient weapon in science fiction.

They don't act like it, but that's what the novel said. The idea that the novel may have tried to get across, but spelled it wrong, was that it was focused and the appearance says it's grouped together in bunches. Those cannons at Geonosis looked more like it would have been a plasma weapon. Even Wong wrote up how bad a plasma based weapon would be especially for ships, but this was before the ep 3 novel came out.

Imagine, what would happen with the temperatur and air humidity in the small shuttle, when Dr. Crusher has fired and disintegrated Dr. Jo'Bril, if he was really vaporized due to heating.

There was a thread on the strek-v-swars forum when it was up where it was debated a lot that most of the settings showed heating from things like Crusher's arms catching fire from getting shot by Lore, to raising the temperature of materials and rock to rock exploding. This was to counter the wars rabids saying phasers were chain reaction based on material type. It was thought the other function was the 'make matter disappear' setting. I've prefered the fanon of electron-proton bond breakage, but that's fanon. I will admit to kinda liking the TNG TM explanation of strong force breaking and phase shifting the energy just because it's a cool trick.

No engineer could explain, how the operating mode of a phaser is.

A physicist would be in a better position, but even one with a four year degree isn't necessary either. Just some knowledge of material-chemical interactions would cover most of it and that'd be stuff you could easily get outside of school with the individual researching on their own.

[AnonymousRedShirtEnsign]

You're correct Who is like God arbour, we can't tell how much energy a phaser beam has because we lack information on its operating mechanism. So it would be better to say that a phaser does damage in joule or watt equivalency. It's like measuring damage from a nuclear warhead in an equivalent amount of mass of TNT (example, kilotons). So while a phaser doesn't discharge to energy required to vaporise a humanoid it does the equivalent, so its effective firepower can be measured in the amount of energy required to preform such a feat.

[Who is like God arbour]

Unfortunately, we have plenty of examples where phasers (both hand and ship mounted) have caused DET-like effects as pointed out in a thread from the Trek/Wars forum.

[...]

So plenty of examples available here.
-Mike [/color]


So what are phasers exactly?
-Mike

There was a thread on the strek-v-swars forum when it was up where it was debated a lot that most of the settings showed heating from things like Crusher's arms catching fire from getting shot by Lore, to raising the temperature of materials and rock to rock exploding. This was to counter the wars rabids saying phasers were chain reaction based on material type. It was thought the other function was the 'make matter disappear' setting. I've prefered the fanon of electron-proton bond breakage, but that's fanon. I will admit to kinda liking the TNG TM explanation of strong force breaking and phase shifting the energy just because it's a cool trick.

You're correct Who is like God arbour, we can't tell how much energy a phaser beam has because we lack information on its operating mechanism. So it would be better to say that a phaser does damage in joule or watt equivalency. It's like measuring damage from a nuclear warhead in an equivalent amount of mass of TNT (example, kilotons). So while a phaser doesn't discharge to energy required to vaporise a humanoid it does the equivalent, so its effective firepower can be measured in the amount of energy required to preform such a feat.

That's the problem.

The shown effects aren't continuous to determine the operating mode.

But in some instances, it is obviously, that the pasers don't vaporize its target due to heating.

That doesn't have to mean, that a phaser beam induce a chain reaction in its target. And it doesn't mean, that a phaser is not able to heat its target too.

The point is, we don't know the operating mode of a phaser and how it disintegrate matter. All we know is, that it does it - and that without bad effects on the surrounding, which would to be due, if the target would be vaporized due to heating.

We can compare that damage to the damage, a "classical" weapon would create and how many energy that would need for such an effect.

But in the latter, I see only little use.

The damages can be compared directly without determining the figures for an equivalent amount of energy, a "classical" weapon would need for such a task.

Only if the targets are not compareable, it would be necessary to determine such figures.

But even this is problematic because weapon A could have another effect on target 1 than on target 2, on which weapon B was used, which could have another effect on target 1. That applies especially on weapons, which induce a chain reaction in its target. In another target, it would maybe not be able to induce such a chain reaction although the target would be far easier to destroy by an direct energy transfer while the other target is easier to destroy by inducing a chain reaction.

In such a case, the figures of the equivalent amount of energy, a "classical" weapon would need for such a task, wouldn't be usefull.

They don't act like it, but that's what the novel said. The idea that the novel may have tried to get across, but spelled it wrong, was that it was focused and the appearance says it's grouped together in bunches. Those cannons at Geonosis looked more like it would have been a plasma weapon. Even Wong wrote up how bad a plasma based weapon would be especially for ships, but this was before the ep 3 novel came out.

If a novel contradict the shown effects in the movies, the movies overrule the novel.

If the conclusion after seeing the movies have to be, that the turbo lasers can't be a plasma weapon, the novel is overruled, unless it gives a good explanation, why the turbo lasers should be a plasma weapon contradicting the shown effects.

And as someone that is a scientist, as well as militarily tactically trained (though I've never been in the military and I'm not talking about something I just read from a book), I've been both college and real world educated. The problem in Wong's view is that I am not SDN approved(TM). His mind puts me in the 'dumbass section'. But, it's not too bad. You'd be SDN approved(TM), even if you were in junior high school and partially retarded, as long as you said their side was right. You could still be this person and wank out Saxton's wankings.

So tell me, if you've never been in the military than how did you come by this military training? I'm honestly curious as someone who's been in the military myself I've found the only way to actually aquire this training is to have served.

I have only served my basic military service. But I have learned, that someone doesn't have to be a good strategist or tactician, only because he is in the military. That applies especially to lower ranks - and the american military. I know some of the results of NATO manoeuvres - thank you very much.

The shown competence from such soldiers, is not very hard to outperform.

And there are other possibilities to aquire such training. In the police or Border Patrol for example. The german SEK's or the GSG9 are very well trained and can outperform most soldiers easily.

Claims of scientific education aren't worth the bandwidth they use, unless they come with enough information for you to verify their accuracy. Doesn't matter whether it's some obvious liar like GStone or one of the more clever creationist debaters.

Competence is not shown by having a degree in something.
That is only an indicator.

Competence is shown by competent behavior.

The competence of an engineer, who has said, that he would employ the dead man's switch" principles to a star ship, like in a terrestrial reactor, is more than dubious. A competent engineer should be able to recognize the requirements on a system, which he or she is engineering. There are huge differences between a star ship and a terrestrial reactor, which need different solutions. If a terrestrial reactor shut down, nobody have to die. If a star ship loses its main power or its fuel, it could mean the death of the whole crew. A engineer, who is not able to see these differences can't be a competent engineer.

That is the difference between theory and practice.

[GStone]

If a novel contradict the shown effects in the movies, the movies overrule the novel.

If the conclusion after seeing the movies have to be, that the turbo lasers can't be a plasma weapon, the novel is overruled, unless it gives a good explanation, why the turbo lasers should be a plasma weapon contradicting the shown effects.

The movies at times have also gas expeled when a blaster is fired, when Han shoots Greedo and when han shoots the console in the DS in the detention facility. It's definately funky. There's no zig zagging or appareance of electricity, which would be the most easy source of energy to use. If it was plasma, then I would guess that the funkiness is because of how the energy is contained.

[Who is like God arbour]

If a novel contradict the shown effects in the movies, the movies overrule the novel.

If the conclusion after seeing the movies have to be, that the turbo lasers can't be a plasma weapon, the novel is overruled, unless it gives a good explanation, why the turbo lasers should be a plasma weapon contradicting the shown effects.

The movies at times have also gas expeled when a blaster is fired, when Han shoots Greedo and when han shoots the console in the DS in the detention facility. It's definately funky. There's no zig zagging or appareance of electricity, which would be the most easy source of energy to use. If it was plasma, then I would guess that the funkiness is because of how the energy is contained.

1. Was is cooled off plasma or was it vaporised matter from the target?
2. Anyway, it was not a continuous shown effect.
3. Imagine, what would happen, if a bolt of plasma, several thousand degree kelvin hot "gas", would disperse in immediate vicinity of a person?

[GStone]

1. In the Han-Greedo shot, when you go frame by frame, the gas is expelled from the emitter of Han's blaster. It's the same with the DS console shot. The gas is expelled when the bolt is fired. It's a little puff of a smoke looking substance.

2. It isn't always shown, that's true, even with Han's blaster. So, the puff could be caused by something faulty with the weapon itself.

3. I think the plasma type they're going with would be the kind where you take a substance, like a gas and just charge it with energy, while keeping the temperature low. Around 50 milliamps is enough to either cause enough of a screw up to your body to cause death indirectly or be the direct cause of your death. Since we never see huge electrical shocks across people, we hear no crackling of the air and we've never seen anyone get up after a direct hit, the rating for the bolts could be that low, assuming SW humans had the same frailty to amperage that we do. But, it might be higher because some species might be able to take that kind of a hit, even if they're humanoid.

But, what's bothered me still is that 50 milliamps or more doesn't take up that much space. It wouldn't be enough to make the blaster bolt not see through. The color and not see through nature of the bolt could be from how they get the energy to be in bolt form. As much as there could be focusing involved, it can't explain how it stays in bolt form till it hits the target and I'm assuming this is also a big problem for you, as well.

What I think might also happen is that, assuming the substance is charged with electricomagnetism, they introduce a portion of energy that's the reverse polarity of the energy used primarily to charge the subtance. That way, they create a 'magnetic lock' on the energized substance. When it's emitted, the shape of the perimeter is the shape of the aperture it's coming out of and because there are only 'plasma chunks' fired, we see it as a bolt. And the front and back tip could be that way because there is less charged substance density there, possibly a side effect of the pushing forward effect of more charged substance behind it, as well as the cut off of excess substance from getting into the 'charging chamber'. But, it could also be influenced by the shape of the 'charging container'.

There's also the possiblity that it has something to do with whatever moves the charged substance forward, which I would think could be a series of circular and tiny particle accelerators. It could have something to do with their timing mechanisms.

What this magnetic lock could do is let it retain the bolt's cohesion until it hits a target, but we have seen them ricochete off interior walls of ships in ep 4, off grass/ground in ep 1. One of the novels says they reflect off polished surfaces. So, to break this magnetic lock would take either a hit in a particular direction or the strength of the hit that you would get with a direct hit, which would be less when the bolt hits a surface and reflects off it.

[Who is like God arbour]

3. I think the plasma type they're going with would be the kind where you take a substance, like a gas and just charge it with energy, while keeping the temperature low. Around 50 milliamps is enough to either cause enough of a screw up to your body to cause death indirectly or be the direct cause of your death. Since we never see huge electrical shocks across people, we hear no crackling of the air and we've never seen anyone get up after a direct hit, the rating for the bolts could be that low, assuming SW humans had the same frailty to amperage that we do. But, it might be higher because some species might be able to take that kind of a hit, even if they're humanoid.

It would be very easy to protect against such energized "plasma" bolts. But said bolts are able to penetrate the "heavy and nearly invincible" ;-)armor of the clone- and stormtroopers. They would have to be more powerful.

I don't see, how a gas can be charged with energy without heating it in a - at least - secondary effect.

But why would someone use such an inefficient weapon? There is no doubt, that it would theoretical be possible. But there would be other, better possibilities.

[GStone]

It would be very easy to protect against such energized "plasma" bolts. But said bolts are able to penetrate the "heavy and nearly invincible" ;-)armor of the clone- and stormtroopers. They would have to be more powerful.

That's probably what the armor does protect against. It helps insulate the wearer from the energy of the bolt. The speed of the bolt could be what's making it break through the armor and the energy would hit the soldier. It's kinda like the speed is the prongs thats shot out from a taser and the EM of the bolt is what shocks the body to death.

I don't see, how a gas can be charged with energy without heating it in a - at least - secondary effect.

There would be a temp increase, but since we there isn't any environmental aftereffects, it's energizing is probably kept low and the charge given to the substance is probably loosely bound to the substance- sitting close enough to call it 'charged'.

But why would someone use such an inefficient weapon? There is no doubt, that it would theoretical be possible. But there would be other, better possibilities.

It is weird, no doubt, but I think it's 'plasmic nature' might be more a side effect. Blastera would be basically particle accelerators and the loosely bound charge (the gas and the EM energy floating around each other in close proximity) gives it more 'oomph', as an object when it is thrust forward. I guess shocking the target is in hopes to kill them, if the brute force of the gas hitting them wasn't enough.

This would track with Lucas allowing there to be mention in the ep 3 novel that slug throwers are still around. Gas firing accelerators would be a way to compensate for the limited ammo a hand gun firing bullets has, so you don't have to keep switching clips and your slug thrower ends up becoming a blunt object too soon.

This is more evidence where I think rail guns would have been a good addition to SW.

[Who is like God arbour]

It would be very easy to protect against such energized "plasma" bolts. But said bolts are able to penetrate the "heavy and nearly invincible" ;-)armor of the clone- and stormtroopers. They would have to be more powerful.

That's probably what the armor does protect against. It helps insulate the wearer from the energy of the bolt. The speed of the bolt could be what's making it break through the armor and the energy would hit the soldier. It's kinda like the speed is the prongs thats shot out from a taser and the EM of the bolt is what shocks the body to death.

We see the velocity of an blaster bolt. If this "gas" is not very very heavy, such a bolt shouldn't have much kinetic energy or momentum to break through an armor.

I don't see, how a gas can be charged with energy without heating it in a - at least - secondary effect.

There would be a temp increase, but since we there isn't any environmental aftereffects, it's energizing is probably kept low and the charge given to the substance is probably loosely bound to the substance- sitting close enough to call it 'charged'.

And that would be the hyper mighty blaster?

But why would someone use such an inefficient weapon? There is no doubt, that it would theoretical be possible. But there would be other, better possibilities.

It is weird, no doubt, but I think it's 'plasmic nature' might be more a side effect. Blastera would be basically particle accelerators and the loosely bound charge (the gas and the EM energy floating around each other in close proximity) gives it more 'oomph', as an object when it is thrust forward. I guess shocking the target is in hopes to kill them, if the brute force of the gas hitting them wasn't enough.

This would track with Lucas allowing there to be mention in the ep 3 novel that slug throwers are still around. Gas firing accelerators would be a way to compensate for the limited ammo a hand gun firing bullets has, so you don't have to keep switching clips and your slug thrower ends up becoming a blunt object too soon.

This is more evidence where I think rail guns would have been a good addition to SW.

I'm not satisfied.

[GStone]

We see the velocity of an blaster bolt. If this "gas" is not very very heavy, such a bolt shouldn't have much kinetic energy or momentum to break through an armor.

Well, the armor does seem to be kinda fragile, probably because of its thickness. I haven't moved over to the 'they thought of protecting troops from electric shocks with plastic' just yet.

And that would be the hyper mighty blaster?

Let that baby rip and it'll burp for you. :-P

I'm not satisfied.

Well, I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt. If slugs are still around, rail guns might, too.

[Mr. Oragahn]

If a novel contradict the shown effects in the movies, the movies overrule the novel.

If the conclusion after seeing the movies have to be, that the turbo lasers can't be a plasma weapon, the novel is overruled, unless it gives a good explanation, why the turbo lasers should be a plasma weapon contradicting the shown effects.

The movies at times have also gas expeled when a blaster is fired, when Han shoots Greedo and when han shoots the console in the DS in the detention facility. It's definately funky. There's no zig zagging or appareance of electricity, which would be the most easy source of energy to use. If it was plasma, then I would guess that the funkiness is because of how the energy is contained.

Frank Bitterhoff once brought a point about some behind the scene data used for the production of Empire.
It was shown how tibanna gas was related to anti-gravitational technologies (and was a fan of the idea that the main central fin on a lambda shuttle, filled with such a gas, helped for stabilisation even outside of any atmosphere).
It's quite funny that after all these years, the EU says that tibanna gas is used for weapons, and that the bolts fired by those weapons mysteriously neglect the effects of gravity.

[GStone]

Frank Bitterhoff once brought a point about some behind the scene data used for the production of Empire.
It was shown how tibanna gas was related to anti-gravitational technologies (and was a fan of the idea that the main central fin on a lambda shuttle, filled with such a gas, helped for stabilisation even outside of any atmosphere).
It's quite funny that after all these years, the EU says that tibanna gas is used for weapons, and that the bolts fired by those weapons mysteriously neglect the effects of gravity.

That's how they get through the trooper's uber armor. They're using gravity to punch their way through.