To what extent is continuity jettisoned in Enterprise?

Kazeite · Post by **Kazeite** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 1:31 pm

But the Starfleet doesn't know how to penetrate through it.

And it still doesn't explain how holographic camouflage could be classified as cloaking device. It doesn't make the ship invisible - it simply changes ships appearance.

SailorSaturn13 · Post by **SailorSaturn13** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 1:01 am

Kazeite wrote:But the Starfleet doesn't know how to penetrate through it.

And it still doesn't explain how holographic camouflage could be classified as cloaking device. It doesn't make the ship invisible - it simply changes ships appearance.

So quote from TOS is correct - if SF doesn't consider such device a cloak, then the quote about "first time ships use cloak"
does NOT contradict such tech in ENT.

And we know Starfleet doesn't.
In Voyager, in Basics, such tech is used by it. So, it was developed, though development of a "cloak device" was halted.
So no contradiction - the tech from ENT is not cloak, TOS and ENT are both correct.

As for why the change, AT FIRST they may call it a cloak, but later, most likely after they began using subspace sensors, the holotech became obsolete and was not considered "cloak" anymore.

Who is like God arbour · Post by **Who is like God arbour** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 9:05 pm

Kazeite wrote:But the Starfleet doesn't know how to penetrate through it.

Excuse me - but have you read this?

watchdog · Post by **watchdog** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 1:42 am

Ok now I'm a bit confused, are you guys saying that the cloaks the Romulans were using were holographic? That doesnt fit, when Ent first encountered the Romulans it was in that cloaked mine field where all the mines were invisible, they found them using the technology Daniels had provided to penetrate the Sulieban cloaks. There was no mention of holograms at all. As I recall the episode in question (with the telepathic Andorians) featured a ship that appeared as other ships, it wasnt cloaked, it was sending out false sensor images in the form of holograms surrounding the ship.

Who is like God arbour · Post by **Who is like God arbour** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 6:29 am

watchdog wrote:Ok now I'm a bit confused, are you guys saying that the cloaks the Romulans were using were holographic? That doesnt fit, when Ent first encountered the Romulans it was in that cloaked mine field where all the mines were invisible, they found them using the technology Daniels had provided to penetrate the Sulieban cloaks. There was no mention of holograms at all. As I recall the episode in question (with the telepathic Andorians) featured a ship that appeared as other ships, it wasnt cloaked, it was sending out false sensor images in the form of holograms surrounding the ship.

One could say, that the mine have had some kind of holographic cloacking device. As you can see, the mine is nearly globular.

There could have been a holographic image created above the surface, which shows the image from the other side of the mine (similar to the holodeck-walls, which create also a realistic 3D view). Regardless from which angle you look or if you look straight through the center of the mine or only at a part of the mine at the surface, you will only see, what is behind the mine. It would be like a very advanced camouflage.

Although the mine would appear invisble, it wouldn't be an EM-bending cloacking device. This holographic cloacking device was compromissed by the quantum beacon technology, which couldn't compromiss the new and never seen before EM-bending cloacking device from "Balance of Terror" although this technology was at this time already applied in UFP sensors.

Who is like God arbour · Post by **Who is like God arbour** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 8:46 am

Kazeite wrote:Cutting 200 old design in half, enlarging it, attaching new engines, saucer dish and bridge module doesn't make it completely new design.
[...]
Who is like God arbour wrote:You can't look at two different things and only search for similarities. You have to look for differences. Otherwise, all people will look the same. They have all a nose and a mouth, two eyes and ears, a body with two arms and legs.
Which usually have different shapes. But we're not talking about people, but about ships.

But it applies to ships too. If you would not only search for similarities [selective perception], you would see all the differences.

You can see, that both ships have more differences than similarities. And it's not only the size or some attached modules. It is the whole hull-configuration, which is different. The main similarity is the doppel-engine-hull, like at a catamaran. The rest is totally different but some minor similarities, which are more or less on each Starfleet ship.

Post by **Mike DiCenso** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 2:48 am

watchdog wrote:Ok now I'm a bit confused, are you guys saying that the cloaks the Romulans were using were holographic? That doesnt fit, when Ent first encountered the Romulans it was in that cloaked mine field where all the mines were invisible, they found them using the technology Daniels had provided to penetrate the Sulieban cloaks. There was no mention of holograms at all. As I recall the episode in question (with the telepathic Andorians) featured a ship that appeared as other ships, it wasnt cloaked, it was sending out false sensor images in the form of holograms surrounding the ship.

If you can create a holographic image of a starship that appears and even reads initially on sensors with the characteristics of said starship, there is nothing preventing you from using said holotech to make your ship appear as starfield (essentially rendering the ship invisible to the unaided eye or viewscreen). In either episode, it still took special measures to discover the true nature of the "cloaked" vessels. In "Minefield", Archer simply presumed that the Romulan holocloaks were the same as the Suliban cloaks, and by nice serendipity, the quantum beacon worked on that as well. You're simply overthinking the issue and confusing yourself.
-Mike

SailorSaturn13 · Post by **SailorSaturn13** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 4:07 am

There could have been a holographic image created above the surface, which shows the image from the other side of the mine (similar to the holodeck-walls, which create also a realistic 3D view). Regardless from which angle you look or if you look straight through the center of the mine or only at a part of the mine at the surface, you will only see, what is behind the mine. It would be like a very advanced camouflage.

Although the mine would appear invisble, it wouldn't be an EM-bending cloacking device. This holographic cloacking device was compromissed by the quantum beacon technology, which couldn't compromiss the new and never seen before EM-bending cloacking device from "Balance of Terror" although this technology was at this time already applied in UFP sensors.

Such a tech is poartially used in "Stealth" airplanes - in radar wave range

Kazeite · Post by **Kazeite** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 7:49 pm

Who is like God arbour wrote:Excuse me - but have you read this?

Yes, and I believe that my response to Mike Dicenso covers your post as well.

And, holotech does nothing to hide the ship from sensors - it may render object invisible to naked eye, yes, but even simple radar would still detect it.

And this holo-sip from ENT couldn't even cloak...

SailorSaturn13 · Post by **SailorSaturn13** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 6:07 am

And, holotech does nothing to hide the ship from sensors - it may render object invisible to naked eye, yes, but even simple radar would still detect it.

Unless it has a "radar hologramm" as well. You answered this - holos were considered cloaks when all sensors were EM.

Who is like God arbour · Post by **Who is like God arbour** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 7:23 am

The modified Romulan Warbird couldn't have deceived the Enterprise and the Tellarites and the Andorians, if the hologram wouldn't deceive their sensors too. Otherwise the sensors would have seen through the hologram and could have scanned the modified Romulan Warbird. But that didn't happened. It seems to me logical to assume, that the hologram transmitted in other EM-spectra as well and maybe also in subspace spectra to deceive modern sensors.
And if the hologram is able to absorb sensor signals, similar to the outer skin of a stealth aircraft, sensor wouldn't get an echo from their own signals but only the from the hologram transmitted signals.

And that the modified Romulan Warbird couldn't even cloak seems to me an assumption. Was such thing said? I think, that it is possible, that its hologram could have cloacked it in the same way as the mines were cloacked. But because neither the Starfleet nor the Tellarites or the Andorians have a cloacking device, they haven't used this mode.

watchdog · Post by **watchdog** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 2:49 pm

My problem with all these explanations is that they are all fanion and not canon. It can be fun to speculate on certain unexplained aspects of different shows, but you should not have to come up with overly elaborate explanations that dont really fit the established facts in order to enjoy any show.

That is my problem with Ent, I could have overlooked the Akiraprise design of the ship and other little flaws but the show failed badly. It had such a great potential, the idea behind it was sound and made a whole lot of sense, what it needed was better writters and a willingness to change the premise of Trek in order to hold an audience grown familiar with shows like B-5 and Battlestar Galactica.

Instead we get the same old formula that Trek has been using the past 40 years along with the same old stories.
I am sorry to all of you out there trying to square away this holographic cloak but I do not buy it, until it is stated to be such in an episode or movie then it will remain a poorly fitting fan-based idea. None of us should have to work this hard to square away a piece of continuity, that detracts from the enjoyment of the show and makes my favorite characters (TOS) look stupid.