To what extent is continuity jettisoned in Enterprise?

[watchdog]

Kinda hate to simply rehash an old thread of mine from SB.com but;

Enterprise continuity issues

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I’ve always thought that every episode has at least one continuity flaw, granted many of them are minor nit-picks (Tribbles come to mind as well as the Telerites having 5 fingers instead of 3, etc,etc). I have compiled this list of the flaws which in my opinion are not minor nit-picks; the ones which I believe are the very heart of continuity flaws and in the end simply make the Starfleet personnel look stupid. This might all be academic at this point considering that B&B have made it official that ENTERPRISE is set in an alternate time line (as of the episode ‘Carpenter Street’), no doubt in order to leave themselves an out for all the fans who keep making an issue out of the continuity. Some would ask “Why the concern over continuity? Can’t you just enjoy the show? After all the other Star Trek shows have all had similar flaws.” The answer to that is; no they haven’t, the other shows have had continuity flaws to be sure, but none of the other shows were prequels. This show should fill in the gaps of established trek history, not make up new stuff that ends up re-writing what we do know about star trek. We who cry about the continuity do so because we want the show to make sense ,if you have to sit around thinking up all kinds of elaborate excuses to explain away some of these major flaws, flaws that should not have popped up in the first place then that makes the show less enjoyable. Some of these flaws simply make not only the ENTERPRISE characters look like idiots, but also has a rippling effect that can make the later characters look like uninformed idiots as well. I fully expect some will no doubt disagree with my viewpoint on this matter, and that’s fine, it will encourage more debate on this subject, and that’s the fun part.

And now, the flaws that ENTERPRISE could do without.



VULCAN MIND MELD
First it was an ancient technique abandoned centuries ago, and then it was a genetic anomaly that only a small minority possessed. Keep in mind however that up until ENT, almost every Vulcan seen in all other incarnations of star trek had this rare ability, that almost indicates that the Federation and Starfleet only accepts those with this ability. I know, I know, a lot can happen in 100 years, the problem with that is that we are not talking about just a hundred years; we’re talking about one generation. Spock’s father, who happens to be one of these genetic freaks, is born sometime in the decade that ENT takes place in, and within half of his lifetime (he appeared to be middle aged in ‘Journey to Babel’) this ability which would have gotten him ostracized by his own people, instead becomes a tradition used for parent and child bonding, male and female bonding for later mating, as well as being included in later ceremonies. Some of the most revered and respected matriarchs on Vulcan are melders (T’Pau, who B&B were originally going to make the part that eventually became T’Pol) yet in their younger days they would have been shunned. Here’s something to think about; seeing as how every major Vulcan character on all the other Star Trek series have all been able to mind meld while very few have never been observed melding at all, and considering that all the older Vulcan females that have appeared in leadership positions on Vulcan can all meld (Amok time, STTMP, ST3). Does this mean that the melding Vulcan’s did something to the non-melding Vulcan’s and took over the planet?


CLOAKING DEVICE
Kirk and Spock refer to the Romulan cloaking screen as an invisibility screen and Spock has to inform Kirk that ’Invisibility is theoretically possible’. It is clear from Kirk’s and his crew’s reaction, as well as the reaction of the guy in outpost 4, that a ship able to become invisible is new to them (remember the guy at the outpost sounded surprised at the Romulan ship becoming visible for only a moment. If the Romulan's had had this ability in the past he should not be surprised at all with a ship that can become invisible ether visually or on sensors). There isn’t an ‘Hmm a new type of cloaking device’ reaction; it’s more of a ‘WTF!’ reaction. Yet a hundred years before this we learn that Kirk, his crew and the guy on outpost 4 are all uninformed idiots because Archer encountered a cloaking device in the third or fourth episode, and the Suliban cell ships all appear to have cloaks as well (at least the one Archer captured has a very sophisticated one), not to mention they now have the ability to detect the Suliban's advanced future tech cloaks. And lo and behold, the Romulan’s already had cloaking technology as well, so refined was it that they were able to cloak hundreds of small mines. This is so distressing to Starfleet that they waited a hundred years so that they could send Kirk to steal one of these devices for study.


TIME TRAVEL
Well at least Kirk can still lay claim to having been the first ship to LEARN how to travel through time, even if he and his crew are no longer the first to prove time travel or even to be first to travel through time…. Of course ENTERPRISE isn’t over yet.


RURA PENTHE
Kirk you nimrod, you obviously aren’t the first to escape from Rura Penthe, you uninformed dweeb.


XINDI WAR
I was going to bring this up, but as they really aren’t at war with the Xindi yet and Daniels has confirmed that they have no records of any conflict with the Xindi (can you say alternate time line?) Why bother.


FERENGI
They captured the ship, incapacitated the crew, stole all the weapons as well as a few torpedoes, tried to kidnap all the women, caused damage to several systems in an attempt to steal everything that WAS nailed down, Trip and Archer managed to capture them and force them at gun point no less to put back everything they stole, only to let them go without asking what species they are!? If you are supposed to be seeking new life and new civilizations, then shouldn’t you at least ask the aliens who hijacked your ship and tried to sell half of your crew into slavery what their species is called?! This isn’t a continuity flaw for anyone else, but it makes Archer look stupid (it’s an ‘I can’t believe they gave him a ship’ moment). Apparently this run in with humans was so traumatizing that the Ferengi avoided all contact with them (and it would appear the federation as a whole) for the next 200 years even though their culture is based solely on commerce and trade with multiple races (and cheating them of course).


THE BORG
This episode showed how the Borg first became aware of Earth, and upon receiving this message the Borg immediately raids the Earth/Romulan neutral zone…. And then go back home. Keep in mind that in STFC the Borg were attempting to contact the Borg of that time period by using an interplexing beacon so that the Borg in that time frame could come and assimilate Earth in the past (of course the Borg in ENT didn’t think to make an interplexing beacon so it’s all OK now). I’ll bet Picard was pissed when he learned that Starfleet had advanced Borg tech from a 200 year old crash site and they never bothered to tell him about it. Let’s recap; The Borg had raided Guinan's people who had already had contact with Earth and the Federation in Kirks era, they captured a federation vessel the Raven, with a young 7 of 9 aboard, they had raided a number of outposts along the neutral zone and even had a confrontation with Picard. The problem with ENTERPRISES encounter with the Borg is that it was unnecessary and redundant. All the other episodes had already showed how the Borg became aware of the Federation, at best you could say that the Borg became fully interested in the Federation after Picards first encounter with them AND THEN they receive this Borg message from 200 years ago. Remember The Borg were attempting to send a message to the Borg of 2061 in order to have those Borg arrive to assimilate Earth before the Federation existed, so the fact that the message sent in this episode of ENT would take 200 years to reach its destination made the whole episode completely pointless. (What is interesting is that these 200 year old weapons appear to be more effective than the weapons in Picard’s era).


AKIRAPRISE
I’m sorry but I really am disappointed in the new ships design, when I saw the first pic of it on the cover of TV Guide I thought at first that it was a pic of the Akira class until I got a close look at it. It does not look like a predecessor to Kirk’s ship; at best it looks like a failed in-between concept between the TOS Constitution class and the movie Constitution class refit. I think the ship should have a more Spartan appearance, it doesn’t have to be absolutely completely smooth but I don’t think it should have so many retro and streamlined sections on it. The Bridge looks more like the movie bridge than the TOS Bridge and of course there is the Akira look. “But obviously it was a highly successful design, so much so that they reused it for the Akira 200 years later.” No doubt, but this seams to indicate that the design was flawless from the get go, that Starfleet’s very first attempt was absolutely perfect with no flaws at all. I don’t buy it, and I would still prefer a design that I hadn’t seen before, something that would make me believe that it would eventually evolve into the classic Enterprise, I don’t get that from this new ship, even its portholes come from the movie version. http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/mi...gn_comment.htm has a couple of designs that are based off of the Akira class and look more like predecessors to TOS than this one does, and I recall someone here posting a pic of a ship (Starship Archer I think it was called) which had a more believable look than the Akiraprise, in short I don’t buy it as a precursor at all. On the plus side however, the ships interiors are well done (the only really believable interior from TOS for me was the Bridge.)I’m willing to overlook the color bands on the uniform shoulders as well which are a little to TNG if you ask me (not to mention the rank pips). The only set I have a problem with is the bridge, I think it should have more duty stations, and whatever happened to the navigators position next to the helm?


STORY ARCS
The temporal cold war is uninteresting, it obviously was not planed out in advance which would make the stories hard to write for and stay within established continuity without unnecessarily changing history (something they apparently aren’t worried about), besides time travel stories have been mostly played out in Star Trek at this point. The better story line in the series dealt with the relationships between Earth, Vulcan and Andoria, I love those episodes, and I like the Human/Vulcan tension. I wish that had been the main focus of the show building up to the creation of the Federation, in more competent hands it would have been. As for the new Xindi story arc, it’s fine for its own sake, but I would still prefer the above story arc instead.


Well that’s it, there are other issues no doubt but these are the main flaws for me in the series (OK a couple of them are kind of uninteresting). People have attempted to come up with a variety of explanations for the main issues that I have listed here, some of them kind of work, while others do not. Most of them simply seem to make the various characters look like idiots, not to mention that all of our explanations are all non-cannon. I leave the debate as well as the interpretation of all that I have written to those who were willing to slog through my meanderings.

[watchdog]

Just to inform you all, the hostilities with the Klingons began in 2218 as Spock stated that there was unremiting hostility for 70 years in Undiscovered country. So basically first contact happened in 2151 and the Klingons finally got fully hostile in 2218.
The idea that it was first contact was speculation until Picard mentioned it, unfortunatly he also said that it took place centuries ago rather than A century ago so they changed the contact from 2218 to what was seen in Broken Bow. Personally I'm a little more forgiving about this because it just wouldnt be star trek without the Klingons.
It seems to me that the shows creators just didint try to stay within continuity foolishly worried about bieng tied down by it, you shouldnt make a prequal if you didint want to be tied down by continuity.
The Xindi thing was problematic because it was such a big story arc destroying earth and all, my problem was that up until the 4th season the nods to TOS were hardly knoticable, I would have prefered more reference to aliens seen in TOS and the TOS movies (I've always wondered about the purple lizard guy seen in TMP). My above post I explain why I personally hate the ship, I also felt that it should not have been called Enterprise based off of the 'Wall of Enterprises' seen in TMP and TNG and FC movie both of which have an old sailing ship (seen in holodeck recreation in ST Generations), the first nuclear powered aircraft carrier, the first space shuttle, a wierd looking ship (seen on Kirks movie Enterprise) that looks like an earth version of a Vulcan ship (was actually the first design for the ship before they made TOS) and of course all the ships we know. You'd think that the first ship capable of warp five would have been displayed on one of those walls but apparently it just isnt that important.
As for the Romulans, the treaty of Algernon was originally thought to have been the treaty that established the Neutral zone, but was later moved up to the 2290s or so when it was learned that it forbade the Federation from developing cloaking tech (personally I think they simply got togeather later and reaffirmed the treaty along with this new stipulation). The sub-space radio thing I always figured was maybe the Romulans didnot have visual contact ability, but I cannot reconcile the cloaking device thing at all.

EDIT; if your interested in the thread my above piece came from go here
http://forum.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?t=58884
It was a good debate.

[Who is like God arbour]

(...) A civilisation, who has just developed warp drive, shouldn't be a real military threat to the UFP. But a civilisation, who has the warp drive already in common use and with which a first contact was made could be such a thread.

So... this makes Picard analogy even more incorrect, wouldn't you say?

So, basically, "he may not be a liar, or he may be a liar, but there was no harm in lying". On the contrary - this very episode specifically shows us that Picard witheld informations about Riker, which nearly cost him his life and whole mission.

Yes, but look at his whole comment:

Chancellor, no starship mission is more dangerous than first contact. We never know what we face when we open the door to a new world. How will we be greeted? What are the dangers? Centuries ago, a disastrous first contact with the Klingon Empire led to decades of war. It was decided then that we must do surveillance before making contact. It was a controversial decision. But I believe it prevents more problems than it creates.

First he speaks abstract from the dangers of first contact. To justify the surveillance, he then gives the example with the Klingons. This war was a diplomatic failure and maybe the reason they have etablished new diplomatic protocols, inclusive a new first contact protokol. Sure, if the war was not caused by a disastrous first contact, he has exaggerated a little bit. But he has to convince the chancellore of the xenophobic Malcorians. And such an example could do the job better, than detailed explanations about the justification of that decision.
He said, that it was a controversial decision, but that he believes, that it prevents more problems than it creates.

But even this explanation has not totally pleased the Chancellor:

[quote="STAR TREK: "First Contact" - REV. 12/5/90 - ACT FOUR 45.

30 CONTINUED: (3)"]
[...]
Durken leans back, more comfortable with what Picard is saying, but still not satisfied...

DURKEN
I appreciate the logic of your position, Captain. But it would seem a full disclosure after contact would have been in order.

PICARD
(nods)
In time, there would have been full disclosure. I know I can only ask you to believe that. On some worlds, it is not even an issue. But here, verything our observers reported suggested the people of this world would almost certainly react negatively to our arrival. We could see our surveillance might even be interpreted as an act of aggression.
(beat)
I was hoping that we would find Commander Riker before you did...
so the matter would not complicate our introduction. And it was a mistake. [/quote]

Picard has known, that the surveillance might even be interpreted as an act of aggression. Can you blame him, that he has given a reason, which was better convenient to convice the Chancellor?

I specifically said "large parts of ENT". Not "whole ENT".

Which parts?

There's no problem - between "Q-Who" and "Best of Both Worlds" there was ample amount of time to dig trough entire archives.

But if you believe, that this was your first contact with the Borgs and that there couldn't be information about them in the archives, you wouldn't search for them.
Consider that the "first contact" in "Q Who" was on the other side of the galaxy and that Picard and every living person in Starfleet, who have not known about the Borg before, couldn't know, that the Borgs would be able to reach Earth, let alone that the Borg were already at Earth.

What? But Picard actually found some info about Mariposa...

But only after he has known, for what he has to search.
And he has not found many "info about Mariposa". There was no record of a launch to the Ficus quadrant. He has only found the manifest.
And that data wouldn't be secret. He could have "googled" them. But if you don't know, where to search a secret data or if there is a secret data at all, it would be nearly impossible, to find it.
We don't know, when the UFP has created its "Department of Temporal Investigations" or its "Temporal Integrity Commission" or its "Temporal displacement policy" or its "Temporal Prime Directive". But if they have thought, that the knowledge about the timetravelling Borg would create a temporal violation, they could have decided to surpress the data about it.

There's also article by Bernd Schneider outlining basic problems with NX-01 design.

I have read this article. But I think, he does the same mistake, you have made. He thinks, that the NX was build after the Akira. In realtime, it is probably correct. But not in Star Trek time. There, the Akira was inspired by the NX.

And to be honest, I think, there are huge differences between NX and Akira. Sure, there are some similarities between both classes, but nothing more, that between other Starfleet ships too.

From above





and from beneath





I can't understand the agitation in this example.

And, as far as I know, it is not known, when the Akira class was constucted. It was shown first in "First Contact". But that doesn't mean, that it isn't a ship as old as or older than the Excelsior class or the Miranda class in its different configurations.

In TNG, there was only a few ship classes shown. Do you think, that the UFP have had only these few ship classes and suddenly has developed most of the now known classes or is it possible, that not all classes was shown, but that they were there already?

AND

The Opposite Side
I am glad that I could engage in a dialog with Doug Drexler who designed NX-01. He told me of his efforts to design the ship as technically correct as possible. Although I still don't like the overall look of the NX-01, this allowed me to see the whole issue from another side, and I now appreciate much of Doug's work.


Carrier lineage
by Doug Drexler


"Flying Wing" comparison
by Doug Drexler

B-52 service time
by Doug Drexler

Doug also sent me a couple of images in response to my and other fans' arguments that the NX-01 design looks wrong. I'm including his evidence without further commenting about it. The first image shows a comparison of aircraft carriers, in response to the argument that dated technology should be looking considerably different than what is high tech today. The second image compares the "Flying Wing" experimental aircraft from the 50's with a modern B-2 bomber. The shape of the "Flying Wing" vanished for over 30 years until it was resurrected for the B-2. Could it have been the same with the NX-01 and the Akira? The B-52, finally, is an example for a design with an exceptionally long lifespan. This bomber has survived two or three generations of newer aircraft already now, and maybe it could be the same with starship designs.

That's nearly the same thoughts, I had too whithout knowing this article.


But again:
I have never doubted, that there is discontinuity in Enterprise. But it is in the whole Star Trek, even within individually serieses.
I try to solve such discontinuities by finding possible explanations.
But to me, it seems, that you only try to discredit Enterprise.
Can you show, that my explanation is impossible?
Have you tried to look after an explanation yourself. Have you even tried to solve such discontinuities. Or is all you try, to discredit Enterprise?
I think, I have possible explanations for some discontinuities and that therefore, there are only minor discontinuities left over, which are not more bad than in the other serieses too.
If you are obsessed with the goal to discredit Enterprise, I think, that further discussions would have no sense.

[Who is like God arbour]

[...]Some of these flaws simply make not only the ENTERPRISE characters look like idiots, but also has a rippling effect that can make the later characters look like uninformed idiots as well.[...]

A very friendly contemporary.
Why is someone an idiot, because he is not informed about something important? I don't understand it. If at all, the bloke, who has not informed said someone is an idiot.
But I see, that this friendly contemporary has basically the same examples for continuity flaws, as are mentioned and dealed with in this thread.

People have attempted to come up with a variety of explanations for the main issues that I have listed here, some of them kind of work, while others do not.

When he is writing such an essay, he should have dealed with these variety of explanations, especially with these, which kind of work. But he should have shown too, why others do not. This essay is beyond the pale in its bias and onesidedness. He hasn't even tried to solve some continuity flaws.

[Kazeite]

First he speaks abstract from the dangers of first contact. To justify the surveillance, he then gives the example with the Klingons.(...)

Hang on - have you seen watchdogs post? Hostilities with Klingons started 67 years after First Contact. Sixty seven years. How could anyone say that FC situation is connected in any way with start of the hostilities?

I specifically said "large parts of ENT". Not "whole ENT".

Which parts?

Parts talking about TCW. And, to back up a little, even if we assume that TCW invalidates "whole ENT", it doesn't mean that it also invalidates other series too. There was no TCW in other series, so, there'd be no reason to invalidate them.

But if you believe, that this was your first contact with the Borgs and that there couldn't be information about them in the archives, you wouldn't search for them.

No, but I would search for any smiliarities. Or maybe you think that there's no point in researching history to help deal with the present?

But only after he has known, for what he has to search.
And he has not found many "info about Mariposa".

If he knew what to search for (cybernetic organisms) the amount of data wouldn't matter.

We don't know, when the UFP has created its "Department of Temporal Investigations" or its "Temporal Integrity Commission" or its "Temporal displacement policy" or its "Temporal Prime Directive".

This is irrelevant to our discussion.

There, the Akira was inspired by the NX.

Yet another irrelevant argument. I've already told you why.

And to be honest, I think, there are huge differences between NX and Akira.

Oh yeah, there's difference in bottom saucer and nacelles. The similiarities however are more than similiarities "between other Starfleet ships too."

Which is precisely why Doug Drexler's defence is also irrelevant. He tries to defend NX-01 like we accuse it for having similarities with other Starfleet vessels. The problem is not that NX-01 resembles Akira in the same way Ambassador resembles Galaxy - the problem is that NX-01 looks too much like Akira.

In TNG, there was only a few ship classes shown. Do you think, that the UFP have had only these few ship classes and suddenly has developed most of the now known classes or is it possible, that not all classes was shown, but that they were there already?

Yet again, I see no relevance of that argument.

I try to solve such discontinuities by finding possible explanations.
But to me, it seems, that you only try to discredit Enterprise.

That's because I see no way of explaining those inconsistencies. And because I don't believe that NX-01 is crewed by idiots.

Have you tried to look after an explanation yourself. Have you even tried to solve such discontinuities.

Yes I did.

If you are obsessed with the goal to discredit Enterprise, I think, that further discussions would have no sense.

Well, I'm not.

[Nonamer]

Kinda hate to simply rehash an old thread of mine from SB.com but;

Enterprise continuity issues

*SNIP*

Awesome post. While some seem to tolerate the continuity issues in ST:Ent as general non-continuity present in all long running series, ST:Ent is just particularly bad at it.

[watchdog]

[...]Some of these flaws simply make not only the ENTERPRISE characters look like idiots, but also has a rippling effect that can make the later characters look like uninformed idiots as well.[...]

A very friendly contemporary.
Why is someone an idiot, because he is not informed about something important? I don't understand it. If at all, the bloke, who has not informed said someone is an idiot.
But I see, that this friendly contemporary has basically the same examples for continuity flaws, as are mentioned and dealed with in this thread.

People have attempted to come up with a variety of explanations for the main issues that I have listed here, some of them kind of work, while others do not.

When he is writing such an essay, he should have dealed with these variety of explanations, especially with these, which kind of work. But he should have shown too, why others do not. This essay is beyond the pale in its bias and onesidedness. He hasn't even tried to solve some continuity flaws.

I wrote this in the above as well;

...if you have to sit around thinking up all kinds of elaborate excuses to explain away some of these major flaws, flaws that should not have popped up in the first place then that makes the show less enjoyable.

I was not concerned with finding explanations for all of these flaws when I wrote out the above list, I knew that the poster known as Ladiesman would do that (check out the link in my second post above for the full debate between myself and he). These flaws are glaring examples of the continuity problems the show had in its first 2 1/2 seasons (when I wrote this), while I don't mind thinking about the meaning behind some continuity flaws I shouldn't have to come up with continuity answers for every other episode.
The TOS Enterprise for example doesn't have any knoticeable entry doors on any part of its surface detail like the movie version does, I figured that maybe the dark triangular shaped panels on the underside of the saucer could perhapse be docking ports much like similar triangular shaped docking doors were in TMP in nearly the same area. I later learned that the designer of the TOS ship originally intended the panels to be landing platforms for saucer separation. So until some future movie or episode shows exactly what these panels are my ideas are non canon and the ships designers ideas are unconfirmed.
My only goal was to chronicle the major continuity errors that I saw popping up, the mind meld bit was the most annoying of them all. Ladiesman insisted that the amount of time between Ent and TOS was plenty of time for Vulcan society to change, I might have agreed if it weren't for the fact that an average Vulcan lifespan is somewhere over 200 years! The Akira and the NX are different ships, and they do have a lot of surface detail that looks different, but they have many more details that make them look exactly alike. Gene Roddenberry made damn sure that the Enterprise D looked completely different from the E-nil and the E-A so as to show how different the ships were. there is no similar difference with the NX and the Akira, they share too many similarities.
The show could have and should have gone in a completely different direction, it didn't even try.

[Mike DiCenso]

watchdog wrote:
Kinda hate to simply rehash an old thread of mine from SB.com but;
Enterprise continuity issues

VULCAN MIND MELD
First it was an ancient technique abandoned centuries ago, and then it was a genetic anomaly that only a small minority possessed. Keep in mind however that up until ENT, almost every Vulcan seen in all other incarnations of star trek had this rare ability, that almost indicates that the Federation and Starfleet only accepts those with this ability. I know, I know, a lot can happen in 100 years, the problem with that is that we are not talking about just a hundred years; we’re talking about one generation. Spock’s father, who happens to be one of these genetic freaks, is born sometime in the decade that ENT takes place in, and within half of his lifetime (he appeared to be middle aged in ‘Journey to Babel’) this ability which would have gotten him ostracized by his own people, instead becomes a tradition used for parent and child bonding, male and female bonding for later mating, as well as being included in later ceremonies. Some of the most revered and respected matriarchs on Vulcan are melders (T’Pau, who B&B were originally going to make the part that eventually became T’Pol) yet in their younger days they would have been shunned. Here’s something to think about; seeing as how every major Vulcan character on all the other Star Trek series have all been able to mind meld while very few have never been observed melding at all, and considering that all the older Vulcan females that have appeared in leadership positions on Vulcan can all meld (Amok time, STTMP, ST3). Does this mean that the melding Vulcan’s did something to the non-melding Vulcan’s and took over the planet?

Actually, the 4th season of ST:ENT changed all that with the Vulcan Civil War story arc. Also, people keep forgetting what Spock actually told McCoy in the first episode ("Dagger of the Mind" TOS1) the mind meld appeared in:


SPOCK:

Enterprise log.
First officer Spock, acting captain.
I must now use an ancient Vulcan technique
to probe into Van Gelder's tortured mind.
Spock, if there's the slightest possibility
it might help--
I've never used it on a human, Doctor.
If there's any way we can look into this man's mind
to see if what he's seeing is real or delusion--
It's a hidden, personal thing to the Vulcan people,
part of our private lives.


Please note the emphasis there on the last line. The Vulcan mind meld originally as presented was a rare and difficult thing. However, as TOS went on, that aspect of it was quietly dropped in favor of making it common tool for the writers to exploit.

Also note that McCoy was completely unaware at the time of what a mind meld was! Yet not too later on it seems as if the technique is common knowledge and routine.

CLOAKING DEVICE
Kirk and Spock refer to the Romulan cloaking screen as an invisibility screen and Spock has to inform Kirk that ’Invisibility is theoretically possible’. It is clear from Kirk’s and his crew’s reaction, as well as the reaction of the guy in outpost 4, that a ship able to become invisible is new to them (remember the guy at the outpost sounded surprised at the Romulan ship becoming visible for only a moment. If the Romulan's had had this ability in the past he should not be surprised at all with a ship that can become invisible ether visually or on sensors). There isn’t an ‘Hmm a new type of cloaking device’ reaction; it’s more of a ‘WTF!’ reaction. Yet a hundred years before this we learn that Kirk, his crew and the guy on outpost 4 are all uninformed idiots because Archer encountered a cloaking device in the third or fourth episode, and the Suliban cell ships all appear to have cloaks as well (at least the one Archer captured has a very sophisticated one), not to mention they now have the ability to detect the Suliban's advanced future tech cloaks. And lo and behold, the Romulan’s already had cloaking technology as well, so refined was it that they were able to cloak hundreds of small mines. This is so distressing to Starfleet that they waited a hundred years so that they could send Kirk to steal one of these devices for study.

As noted earlier in the thread, the Romulan cloaks were retconned in the 4th season as being holographic in nature, not light-bending. The Suliban cloaks either disappeared with the resetting of the timeline by Archer in "Stormfront, Part II", or were kept under wraps by the nascent Section 31.

TIME TRAVEL
Well at least Kirk can still lay claim to having been the first ship to LEARN how to travel through time, even if he and his crew are no longer the first to prove time travel or even to be first to travel through time…. Of course ENTERPRISE isn’t over yet.

Bad example; in "The Naked Time", the accidental time travel is never explicitly stated as the first ever, nor is the time travel in "Tomorrow is Yesterday".

RURA PENTHE
Kirk you nimrod, you obviously aren’t the first to escape from Rura Penthe, you uninformed dweeb.

He apparently wasn't, since no one actually says that he and Bones are the first to do so.


XINDI WAR
I was going to bring this up, but as they really aren’t at war with the Xindi yet and Daniels has confirmed that they have no records of any conflict with the Xindi (can you say alternate time line?) Why bother.

THE BORG
This episode showed how the Borg first became aware of Earth, and upon receiving this message the Borg immediately raids the Earth/Romulan neutral zone…. And then go back home. Keep in mind that in STFC the Borg were attempting to contact the Borg of that time period by using an interplexing beacon so that the Borg in that time frame could come and assimilate Earth in the past (of course the Borg in ENT didn’t think to make an interplexing beacon so it’s all OK now). I’ll bet Picard was pissed when he learned that Starfleet had advanced Borg tech from a 200 year old crash site and they never bothered to tell him about it. Let’s recap; The Borg had raided Guinan's people who had already had contact with Earth and the Federation in Kirks era, they captured a federation vessel the Raven, with a young 7 of 9 aboard, they had raided a number of outposts along the neutral zone and even had a confrontation with Picard. The problem with ENTERPRISES encounter with the Borg is that it was unnecessary and redundant. All the other episodes had already showed how the Borg became aware of the Federation, at best you could say that the Borg became fully interested in the Federation after Picards first encounter with them AND THEN they receive this Borg message from 200 years ago. Remember The Borg were attempting to send a message to the Borg of 2061 in order to have those Borg arrive to assimilate Earth before the Federation existed, so the fact that the message sent in this episode of ENT would take 200 years to reach its destination made the whole episode completely pointless. (What is interesting is that these 200 year old weapons appear to be more effective than the weapons in Picard’s era).

Voyager's "Raven" and "Dark Frontier, Parts I & II" already established that the Borg were aware of the Federation, as well as at least some rumor about the Borg's existance already being known to the Federation before the E-D encounter in "Q Who?". Even before that, Guinan was rescued in the 2290's by the E-B, and no one ever once thought of asking her or the other refugees what they were fleeing from?

To reiterate for those who missed the earlier postings on "Regeneration", the Borg sphere that was discovered on Earth is the one that the E-E blasted to bits in ST:FC, and so if you must have ST:ENT set in an alternate timeline, it is the post ST:FC one.
-Mike

[watchdog]

The Vulcan mind meld originally as presented was a rare and difficult thing. However, as TOS went on, that aspect of it was quietly dropped in favor of making it common tool for the writers to exploit.

Also note that McCoy was completely unaware at the time of what a mind meld was! Yet not too later on it seems as if the technique is common knowledge and routine.

Exactly the point, the mind meld held a much higher position in Vulcan society in Spocks days than it did 100 years earlier;
Amok time, Spock melded with T'pring when they were children in order to call them to one another when the time was right, and in TNG (ether the episode with Sarek or the one with Spock) we learn that it is apparently normal for Vulcan fathers and sons to meld with one another, something Spock chose not to do. Also dont forget about the stone of Gol, a device that only telepathic Vulcans could use that was a very powerful weapon.
I would have accepted that the mind meld was a practice that was all but forgotten and maybe only practiced among a small number of Vulcans, but when they first introduced it in Ent it was an ancient technique abandoned centuries ago and only later changed to a genetic anomaly that was frowned upon, not to mention that at least 90% of all the Vulcans seen throughout Star Trek history have all been one of these genetic mutants up until Ent aired.

As noted earlier in the thread, the Romulan cloaks were retconned in the 4th season as being holographic in nature, not light-bending. The Suliban cloaks either disappeared with the resetting of the timeline by Archer in "Stormfront, Part II", or were kept under wraps by the nascent Section 31.

Havent seen any of Ent in a while, so I do not recall this holographic cloak bit at all, as the Romulan and Suliban cloaks were not the only cloaks in Ent (those aliens with the holodeck had a cloak too) I will continue to stand by my original statements.

Bad example; in "The Naked Time", the accidental time travel is never explicitly stated as the first ever, nor is the time travel in "Tomorrow is Yesterday".

I will have to check but I'm pretty certain that Spock stated that the accidental time travel in the naked time was the first proven time travel in the Federation.

He apparently wasn't, since no one actually says that he and Bones are the first to do so.

The only character who makes the statement that no one had ever escaped before was another prisoner (Marta) but Kirk did not challenge her by claiming another earth captain once escaped, nor do we get any of the other crew members refering back to an earlier Starfleet captain who managed to escape. The incident makes Kirks escape seem like nothing special or unnesecarilly elaborate.

Voyager's "Raven" and "Dark Frontier, Parts I & II" already established that the Borg were aware of the Federation, as well as at least some rumor about the Borg's existance already being known to the Federation before the E-D encounter in "Q Who?". Even before that, Guinan was rescued in the 2290's by the E-B, and no one ever once thought of asking her or the other refugees what they were fleeing from?

To reiterate for those who missed the earlier postings on "Regeneration", the Borg sphere that was discovered on Earth is the one that the E-E blasted to bits in ST:FC, and so if you must have ST:ENT set in an alternate timeline, it is the post ST:FC one.
-Mike

One of the stated reasons for this episodes existence was because B&B thought that they needed to show how the Borg became aware of earth, as stated the other examples above already showed how the Borg became aware of Earth (I dont think that was even a question from their first appearance anyway), making this episode unessesary and redundant.

[Kazeite]

As noted earlier in the thread, the Romulan cloaks were retconned in the 4th season as being holographic in nature, not light-bending.

As noted earlier in the thread, romulan ship featured in 4th season had no cloaking device. It's no retcon - it's separate technology.

[Who is like God arbour]

• 1.) I don't like it, if someone takes my sentences out of context.

• 2.) I don't like it, if someone says, that an argument of me is irrelevant without giving a reason, why it is allegedly irrelevant.

• I will not answer such posts again.

First he speaks abstract from the dangers of first contact. To justify the surveillance, he then gives the example with the Klingons.(...)

Hang on - have you seen watchdogs post? Hostilities with Klingons started 67 years after First Contact. Sixty seven years. How could anyone say that FC situation is connected in any way with start of the hostilities?

Maybe because since their first contact, both, the UFP and the Klingons, have failed to etablish any diplomatical contacts at all. No ambassadors or emissaries and they have not really tried to built up friendly relations.
Neither Klingons have understood Mankind nor Mankind has undersood Klingons.
But again and again, their ships have met in space. Not always, but often enough, there were negative incidents. And then, there was no ambassador or emissariy on both sides to mediate and arbitrate.
The pitcher goes often to the well, but is broken at last.
Somewhere along the way, such a situations have to lead to a war, if you deal with Klingons.
If they had have tried to etablish diplomatical contacts and build up friendly relations from the beginning (from first contact or shortly after), this war could maybe have been avoided.

That's the last straw! All you have on this topic is one single sentence from Picard in whole Star Trek. And, as I have shown, he have had a good motive to be not entirely honest respectively to simplify his given reason. If at all, Enterprise violates in this point only one single sentence. Oh no, that would be insufferable.

I specifically said "large parts of ENT". Not "whole ENT".

Which parts?

Parts talking about TCW. And, to back up a little, even if we assume that TCW invalidates "whole ENT", it doesn't mean that it also invalidates other series too. There was no TCW in other series, so, there'd be no reason to invalidate them.

But there happens other time travelling too.
Who says, that Scotty hasn't changed the near future, while giving Dr. Nichols in Star Trek IV the formula for transparent aluminum. Or that the missing of Ph.D. Gillian Taylor has not caused a new future because she has not given birth to her baby as destined? Or that, because the whalers have seen a "great green bird monster", they have decided, to never go on whaling again and instead have made many babies with their wifes?
The same goes with First Contact. Who says, that they haven't changed the future, because they have given Chochrane and his staff informations, he shouldn't have known. Who says, that the attack of the borg hasn't killed someone, who would have been important in the near future for the advancement of the warp drive?
There was time travelling in DS9 and Voyager too.
All series have become invalid. What we have seen, could have never happened after the intrusion in time in Star Treck IV, Star Treck VIII and all the other time travelling episodes.
Or we disregard temporal wobbliness to a certain extent, which would help to explain some of the inconsistencies, which are in all serieses and would be there too without Enterprise and its new aspects.

But if you believe, that this was your first contact with the Borgs and that there couldn't be information about them in the archives, you wouldn't search for them.

No, but I would search for any smiliarities. Or maybe you think that there's no point in researching history to help deal with the present?

I would think, that if there was a similiar situation in the past, it would be either common knowledge or it would be top secret. If I'm convinced, that this is a new situtaion, I wouldn't bother to exceedingly search the archives.

But only after he has known, for what he has to search.
And he has not found many "info about Mariposa".

If he knew what to search for (cybernetic organisms) the amount of data wouldn't matter.

That's an example, why I hate it, if someone takes my sentences out of context. This sentence was to read in context with the next sentences.

• • And that data wouldn't be secret. He could have "googled" them. But if you don't know, where to search a secret data or if there is a secret data at all, it would be nearly impossible, to find it.

If the data would be secret, you wouldn't get relevant informations, if you would "google" "cybernetic organisms".

We don't know, when the UFP has created its "Department of Temporal Investigations" or its "Temporal Integrity Commission" or its "Temporal displacement policy" or its "Temporal Prime Directive".

This is irrelevant to our discussion.

I don't see, why it is irrelevant. Again, you have decided to take a sentence from me out of context. It was to read in context with the next sentence:

• • But if they have thought, that the knowledge about the timetravelling Borg would create a temporal violation, they could have decided to surpress the data about it.

In context with the sentences above, it seems to me very relevant. If the informations about the timetravelling Borg would have been locked away, no Starfleet officer could have found it, even if he or she would search past several years.

I don't understand it. Usually it is an argument of your kind, that the UFP is so stupid, that it can lose its technology, like the Genesis device, the metaphasic shield, the phase cloacking device, the phase torpedos or the ablative hull armor.

There, the Akira was inspired by the NX.

Yet another irrelevant argument. I've already told you why.

And to be honest, I think, there are huge differences between NX and Akira.

Oh yeah, there's difference in bottom saucer and nacelles. The similiarities however are more than similiarities "between other Starfleet ships too."

Which is precisely why Doug Drexler's defence is also irrelevant. He tries to defend NX-01 like we accuse it for having similarities with other Starfleet vessels. The problem is not that NX-01 resembles Akira in the same way Ambassador resembles Galaxy - the problem is that NX-01 looks too much like Akira.

Maybe, we won't ever agree on this. I think, that there are similarities but huge differences too. These huge difference are important. Because they show the uniqueness of the NX class.
You can't look at two different things and only search for similarities. You have to look for differences. Otherwise, all people will look the same. They have all a nose and a mouth, two eyes and ears, a body with two arms and legs. The similarites are by far predominant. But each person is unique because its differences to all other persons.
And I think, the NX class has huge differences to the Akira class.

You don't think so. OK. That is maybe only a question of apperception. You look at the picture with another attitude than I look at it. That's why we will maybe never agree on this point.

In TNG, there was only a few ship classes shown. Do you think, that the UFP have had only these few ship classes and suddenly has developed most of the now known classes or is it possible, that not all classes was shown, but that they were there already?

Yet again, I see no relevance of that argument.

Yes, you can't see it, because you again have taken this sentence out of context. It was to read in context with the foregoing sentence:

• • And, as far as I know, it is not known, when the Akira class was constucted. It was shown first in "First Contact". But that doesn't mean, that it isn't a ship as old as or older than the Excelsior class or the Miranda class in its different configurations.

If you would have dealt with Doug Drexler's defence, you would see, that both its defence and my argument is relevant. It shows, that the Akira class could be over hundred years old at First Contact and that at its development the shape of the NX class could have been rekindled.

I try to solve such discontinuities by finding possible explanations.
But to me, it seems, that you only try to discredit Enterprise.

That's because I see no way of explaining those inconsistencies. And because I don't believe that NX-01 is crewed by idiots.

Please, why would they look like idiots?

Have you tried to look after an explanation yourself. Have you even tried to solve such discontinuities.

Yes I did.

If you are obsessed with the goal to discredit Enterprise, I think, that further discussions would have no sense.

Well, I'm not.

It doesn't seems so to me like it.

[GStone]

You know what might be good, is either a book or some website is created by those that made ENT that dealt with this issue. I read a quote long ago that said they didn't throw continuity aside, that they were conscious of how to get things to fit. If it were to go step by step on the things they decided and/or possible solutions they came up with before settling on what they chose, it might be good. It'd be an author's intent thing, which isn't necessarily canon, but people might be more willing to accept why many of the things happened. I don't think it'll happen, though I'd love to read it.

[Jedi Master Spock]

Temporal mechanics headaches and paradoxen aside, it is IMO generally a good idea to look at each series separately as a series - each does have its own "take" on Trek.

[Who is like God arbour]

Temporal mechanics headaches and paradoxen aside, it is IMO generally a good idea to look at each series separately as a series - each does have its own "take" on Trek.

Maybe, but then the complaint, that one series has jettisoned the continuity of another series is a fortiori not justified.

[Mike DiCenso]

As noted earlier in the thread, the Romulan cloaks were retconned in the 4th season as being holographic in nature, not light-bending.

As noted earlier in the thread, romulan ship featured in 4th season had no cloaking device. It's no retcon - it's separate technology.

Except that if you look at how the drone ship holographic system worked, it was essentially a cloak, only it made the Romulan drones look like another ship, instead of just making them appear invisible. If you extend the abilities of that holographic system to the earlier "Minefield" episode, then what the Romulan mines and ships are doing there make sense, and continuity is preserved.
-Mike